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On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:03 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:58 Dfgj wrote:On November 01 2011 04:52 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:50 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 04:48 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:48 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 04:39 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:36 ForeverAzerG wrote:
people make stupid threads like this then get mutas speed nerfed and what not they dont need a speed nerf, they need to die faster, especially when flying into 2,3 turrets lolol GOD NO. Turrets are insanely strong vs mutas. Crazy good. Jeez, go back and look at BW when turrets tickled mutas T_T. Go and tech building armor + building range...! they are strong but big enough muta numbers just oneshot them so what, give turrets more HP so you get a chance to repair them before they die in 1 second More HP, they're 250? No, it's an absolutely awful solution, one of the worst I've heard proposed concerning them. Turrets are already over the top as anti air defense in my opinion, I can't possibly understand why you think a massive flock of mutas oneshotting turrets is a bad thing anyways. because after that you lose 10-20 workers in a few sconds just look at why the blueflame helion was nerfed, its the same reason also if turrets are over the top what are spore crawlers then? The cost of blueflame hellions isn't even remotely comparable to a flock of mutas lol Buffing static def isn't a great idea anyways. It's already cost-effective, but it shouldn't be able to replace or eclipse actual units for defense. you cant compare the cost of 1 blueflame helion to that off a flock mutas first helions can't fly around, 2nd compared to mutas helions die extremely quickly you put a spine or bunker somewhere, its enough to stop the helion from poking you put a turret somewhere, mutas don't care and just kill it Please just stop, it's clear you don't have a grasp on balance. I saw you argue earlier that "bronze/silver/gold aren't stupid," I presume you are of that level? no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling
I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though  .
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On November 01 2011 04:40 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 04:28 pezit wrote:On November 01 2011 04:13 mlspmatt wrote:
Terran has a Muta problem at lower masters diamond levels. Once they get 20+, your stuck running around trying to defend everything, your making a ton of turrets, leaving marines everywhere and you can't leave your base. Thors are too slow to get around and get stuck all the time between buildings.
By the time you can leave your base Zerg has the map and its GG. We tend to watch professional play and say "They handle Mutas just fine, whats the problem?"
Its the reason why game balance can't be designed purely around pro level play. 99.9999% of players aren't pro. And they are the ones having trouble with Muta.
It really doesn't matter what newbies have trouble with because they struggle with a lot of things that aren't broken, that's why they are newbies in the first place. I promise you that in gold and lower a 6pool wins you like 90% of the games, should we nerf that as well? The list would be fucking endless and the game would be totally ruined. Again. Same problem. Masters players who are in the top 5% of players, and are excellent players -are noobs cause they aren't on TV traveling the globe playing professional starcraft.
So they struggle with something that is hard to deal with, what is wrong with that? It's not overpowered it's just something that is hard to learn how to deal with. So people whine and complain instead of trying to improve, so fucking sad.
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On October 25 2011 18:21 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Umm, the point of the warhound replacing the thor is only for mech play. Mentioning the marine is pointless. The idea was that a mass of mutas would own up a bunch of a thors with magicboxing and essentially be the counter to mech and I guess they didn't want that.
For ZvP if you can amass 30 or so mutas it becomes incredibly difficult to deal with and you're basically forced to have half your army left in your base and if you leave you're basically forced into a base race. I don't think the tempest is the best answer here, it should always have been the phoenix, but mass mutas is definitely not easy to deal with.
I personally can't say I like either of the 2 new units in their new roles because they don't seem very interesting and microable.
You point about mutas vs protoss only apply to low level protosses. Someone getting 30+ mutas before you get archons / templars implies you do nto know how to multitask or you were rocked early in the game by other stuff. Not, you dont actually have to base race vs mutas because the zerg will allways lose that situation so just attacking them keeps the mutas out of your base. If they elect to base race you simply win. Any protoss on a safe 3 base should be able to rape muta play with the gas to get HT / Archons / Stalkers. Additionally, any strong 2 base timing completely stops a muta build that doesn't have roaches or mass spines before he makes his first muta. So you force him to allocate either like 1500mins + 400 gas to roaches or about 1500 minerals to spine crawlers to even survive until your spire gets out.
30 mutas cost 3000 gas. If you spent 2000 gas on templars and archons you will be fine. For a zerg to get 30 mutas early enough to be a threat he would need to either blindly mass expand (in which case you can kill him) or stay behind you in mineral income and production capabilities in order to get that gas income really really fast. If he does the latter he will have close to no defenses and you can pressure him super hard. Mutas only work on low levels or vs passive players that do not scout properly.
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On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:03 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:58 Dfgj wrote:On November 01 2011 04:52 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:50 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 04:48 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:48 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 04:39 malaki wrote:
[quote]
they dont need a speed nerf, they need to die faster,
especially when flying into 2,3 turrets lolol GOD NO. Turrets are insanely strong vs mutas. Crazy good. Jeez, go back and look at BW when turrets tickled mutas T_T. Go and tech building armor + building range...! they are strong but big enough muta numbers just oneshot them so what, give turrets more HP so you get a chance to repair them before they die in 1 second More HP, they're 250? No, it's an absolutely awful solution, one of the worst I've heard proposed concerning them. Turrets are already over the top as anti air defense in my opinion, I can't possibly understand why you think a massive flock of mutas oneshotting turrets is a bad thing anyways. because after that you lose 10-20 workers in a few sconds just look at why the blueflame helion was nerfed, its the same reason also if turrets are over the top what are spore crawlers then? The cost of blueflame hellions isn't even remotely comparable to a flock of mutas lol Buffing static def isn't a great idea anyways. It's already cost-effective, but it shouldn't be able to replace or eclipse actual units for defense. you cant compare the cost of 1 blueflame helion to that off a flock mutas first helions can't fly around, 2nd compared to mutas helions die extremely quickly you put a spine or bunker somewhere, its enough to stop the helion from poking you put a turret somewhere, mutas don't care and just kill it Please just stop, it's clear you don't have a grasp on balance. I saw you argue earlier that "bronze/silver/gold aren't stupid," I presume you are of that level? no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though .
gz you can be really proud now,
but I won't change my opinion on mutalisks
you playing this game for a longer time doesn't make your opinion more valid,
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On November 01 2011 05:16 malaki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:03 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:58 Dfgj wrote:On November 01 2011 04:52 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:50 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 04:48 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:48 FabledIntegral wrote:
[quote]
lolol GOD NO. Turrets are insanely strong vs mutas. Crazy good. Jeez, go back and look at BW when turrets tickled mutas T_T. Go and tech building armor + building range...! they are strong but big enough muta numbers just oneshot them so what, give turrets more HP so you get a chance to repair them before they die in 1 second More HP, they're 250? No, it's an absolutely awful solution, one of the worst I've heard proposed concerning them. Turrets are already over the top as anti air defense in my opinion, I can't possibly understand why you think a massive flock of mutas oneshotting turrets is a bad thing anyways. because after that you lose 10-20 workers in a few sconds just look at why the blueflame helion was nerfed, its the same reason also if turrets are over the top what are spore crawlers then? The cost of blueflame hellions isn't even remotely comparable to a flock of mutas lol Buffing static def isn't a great idea anyways. It's already cost-effective, but it shouldn't be able to replace or eclipse actual units for defense. you cant compare the cost of 1 blueflame helion to that off a flock mutas first helions can't fly around, 2nd compared to mutas helions die extremely quickly you put a spine or bunker somewhere, its enough to stop the helion from poking you put a turret somewhere, mutas don't care and just kill it Please just stop, it's clear you don't have a grasp on balance. I saw you argue earlier that "bronze/silver/gold aren't stupid," I presume you are of that level? no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though . gz you can be really proud now, but I won't change my opinion on mutalisks
Ok? As long as you realize your opinion is less valid, I'm sure neither of us are too bothered by the issue.
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On November 01 2011 04:43 malaki wrote:
seriously to all the zerg players here,
offrace as terran, get an equally skilled friend of yours to play zerg, and see how annoying mutalisks are, enjoy building turrets everywhere only to then get the turrets 1shot, then get your teclabs and reactors sniped off, while you try to catch the mutas with stimmed marines, and they just fly away, only to return a few seconds later and harass your next basee
(btw I play random and zerg was my main)
Well... mutas exist in ZvZ too. Things are a little different, since queens are better AA than marines (range, hp, transfuse, open base) and spore crawlers are slightly worse than turrets, but as far as base defence goes the tactics are similar.
Thing is, no Z in their right mind tries to fight a flock of 20+ mutas with just static and mineral-only queens: they go for infestors. Likewise, a competent T player usually gets thors. That way the mutas cannot bunch up on turrets to one-shot them: the risk of a thor being within 10 range of that turret and shooting a volley into their middle is too high.
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On November 01 2011 04:45 Stiluz wrote:
People are whining about mutalisks now? What the hell has this game come to... I guess we need to cycle through every single unit so people can suddenly bandwagon on the whine. What's next, immortal drops? Siege tanks? Zerglings? This is getting pretty silly honestly. I bet I could make a topic about zerglings being imba somehow and tons of people would bandwagon on the whine.
This will only get worse, kids these days are fucking unbelievable with their complaining about balance. They never lose because they got outplayed, no something wrong with the game, if it's hard to do something is fucking wrong with the game and blizzard needs to change stuff to make it easier. The worst part is that blizzard actually listens to this fucking bullshit because they are the majority of their customers.
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On November 01 2011 05:20 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:16 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:03 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:58 Dfgj wrote:On November 01 2011 04:52 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:50 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 04:48 malaki wrote:
[quote]
they are strong but big enough muta numbers just oneshot them
so what, give turrets more HP so you get a chance to repair them before they die in 1 second More HP, they're 250? No, it's an absolutely awful solution, one of the worst I've heard proposed concerning them. Turrets are already over the top as anti air defense in my opinion, I can't possibly understand why you think a massive flock of mutas oneshotting turrets is a bad thing anyways. because after that you lose 10-20 workers in a few sconds just look at why the blueflame helion was nerfed, its the same reason also if turrets are over the top what are spore crawlers then? The cost of blueflame hellions isn't even remotely comparable to a flock of mutas lol Buffing static def isn't a great idea anyways. It's already cost-effective, but it shouldn't be able to replace or eclipse actual units for defense. you cant compare the cost of 1 blueflame helion to that off a flock mutas first helions can't fly around, 2nd compared to mutas helions die extremely quickly you put a spine or bunker somewhere, its enough to stop the helion from poking you put a turret somewhere, mutas don't care and just kill it Please just stop, it's clear you don't have a grasp on balance. I saw you argue earlier that "bronze/silver/gold aren't stupid," I presume you are of that level? no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though . gz you can be really proud now, but I won't change my opinion on mutalisks Ok? As long as you realize your opinion is less valid, I'm sure neither of us are too bothered by the issue.
1 no it isn't
2 read above > you playing this game for a longer time doesn't make your opinion more valid,
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I can't believe that Terrans are complaining about mutalisks. Do you realize how expensive they are? 100/100 for each one, and yet they lose to only slightly greater numbers of marines with stim and medivac support. Marines absolutely wreck mutalisks, and in TvZ, you should have tons of marines. BTW, I'm terran.
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On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:03 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:58 Dfgj wrote:On November 01 2011 04:52 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:50 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 04:48 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:48 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 04:39 malaki wrote:
[quote]
they dont need a speed nerf, they need to die faster,
especially when flying into 2,3 turrets lolol GOD NO. Turrets are insanely strong vs mutas. Crazy good. Jeez, go back and look at BW when turrets tickled mutas T_T. Go and tech building armor + building range...! they are strong but big enough muta numbers just oneshot them so what, give turrets more HP so you get a chance to repair them before they die in 1 second More HP, they're 250? No, it's an absolutely awful solution, one of the worst I've heard proposed concerning them. Turrets are already over the top as anti air defense in my opinion, I can't possibly understand why you think a massive flock of mutas oneshotting turrets is a bad thing anyways. because after that you lose 10-20 workers in a few sconds just look at why the blueflame helion was nerfed, its the same reason also if turrets are over the top what are spore crawlers then? The cost of blueflame hellions isn't even remotely comparable to a flock of mutas lol Buffing static def isn't a great idea anyways. It's already cost-effective, but it shouldn't be able to replace or eclipse actual units for defense. you cant compare the cost of 1 blueflame helion to that off a flock mutas first helions can't fly around, 2nd compared to mutas helions die extremely quickly you put a spine or bunker somewhere, its enough to stop the helion from poking you put a turret somewhere, mutas don't care and just kill it Please just stop, it's clear you don't have a grasp on balance. I saw you argue earlier that "bronze/silver/gold aren't stupid," I presume you are of that level? no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though .
What a pretentious prick
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On November 01 2011 05:24 malaki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:16 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:03 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:58 Dfgj wrote:On November 01 2011 04:52 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:50 FabledIntegral wrote:
[quote]
More HP, they're 250? No, it's an absolutely awful solution, one of the worst I've heard proposed concerning them. Turrets are already over the top as anti air defense in my opinion, I can't possibly understand why you think a massive flock of mutas oneshotting turrets is a bad thing anyways. because after that you lose 10-20 workers in a few sconds just look at why the blueflame helion was nerfed, its the same reason also if turrets are over the top what are spore crawlers then? The cost of blueflame hellions isn't even remotely comparable to a flock of mutas lol Buffing static def isn't a great idea anyways. It's already cost-effective, but it shouldn't be able to replace or eclipse actual units for defense. you cant compare the cost of 1 blueflame helion to that off a flock mutas first helions can't fly around, 2nd compared to mutas helions die extremely quickly you put a spine or bunker somewhere, its enough to stop the helion from poking you put a turret somewhere, mutas don't care and just kill it Please just stop, it's clear you don't have a grasp on balance. I saw you argue earlier that "bronze/silver/gold aren't stupid," I presume you are of that level? no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though . gz you can be really proud now, but I won't change my opinion on mutalisks Ok? As long as you realize your opinion is less valid, I'm sure neither of us are too bothered by the issue. 1 no it isn't 2 read above > you playing this game for a longer time doesn't make your opinion more valid,
I'd say him being at a much higher level than you should make his understanding of the game a lot better than yours. Especially when your understanding seems to be that a small group of turrets should shut down a large muta flock.
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On November 01 2011 05:31 blobrus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:24 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:16 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:03 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:58 Dfgj wrote:On November 01 2011 04:52 malaki wrote:
[quote]
because after that you lose 10-20 workers in a few sconds
just look at why the blueflame helion was nerfed, its the same reason
also if turrets are over the top what are spore crawlers then? The cost of blueflame hellions isn't even remotely comparable to a flock of mutas lol Buffing static def isn't a great idea anyways. It's already cost-effective, but it shouldn't be able to replace or eclipse actual units for defense. you cant compare the cost of 1 blueflame helion to that off a flock mutas first helions can't fly around, 2nd compared to mutas helions die extremely quickly you put a spine or bunker somewhere, its enough to stop the helion from poking you put a turret somewhere, mutas don't care and just kill it Please just stop, it's clear you don't have a grasp on balance. I saw you argue earlier that "bronze/silver/gold aren't stupid," I presume you are of that level? no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though . gz you can be really proud now, but I won't change my opinion on mutalisks Ok? As long as you realize your opinion is less valid, I'm sure neither of us are too bothered by the issue. 1 no it isn't 2 read above > you playing this game for a longer time doesn't make your opinion more valid, I'd say him being at a much higher level than you should make his understanding of the game a lot better than yours. Especially when your understanding seems to be that a small group of turrets should shut down a large muta flock.
so you're a gold zerg on NA (would be about bronze on korean server)
what does that make your opinion then?
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On November 01 2011 05:24 malaki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:16 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:03 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:58 Dfgj wrote:On November 01 2011 04:52 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:50 FabledIntegral wrote:
[quote]
More HP, they're 250? No, it's an absolutely awful solution, one of the worst I've heard proposed concerning them. Turrets are already over the top as anti air defense in my opinion, I can't possibly understand why you think a massive flock of mutas oneshotting turrets is a bad thing anyways. because after that you lose 10-20 workers in a few sconds just look at why the blueflame helion was nerfed, its the same reason also if turrets are over the top what are spore crawlers then? The cost of blueflame hellions isn't even remotely comparable to a flock of mutas lol Buffing static def isn't a great idea anyways. It's already cost-effective, but it shouldn't be able to replace or eclipse actual units for defense. you cant compare the cost of 1 blueflame helion to that off a flock mutas first helions can't fly around, 2nd compared to mutas helions die extremely quickly you put a spine or bunker somewhere, its enough to stop the helion from poking you put a turret somewhere, mutas don't care and just kill it Please just stop, it's clear you don't have a grasp on balance. I saw you argue earlier that "bronze/silver/gold aren't stupid," I presume you are of that level? no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though . gz you can be really proud now, but I won't change my opinion on mutalisks Ok? As long as you realize your opinion is less valid, I'm sure neither of us are too bothered by the issue. 1 no it isn't 2 read above > you playing this game for a longer time doesn't make your opinion more valid,
He said he's been grandmasters and at the very top of masters with Terran.
His opinion is more valid because he's playing at a much higher level than you. Platinum, believe it or not, does not even have a complete grasp on the basics of the game.
And they don't need to die faster. They're fragile as hell vs Terran as it is. Build more Turrets in your mineral line or get a few Thors if their muta numbers are too much.
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On November 01 2011 05:33 malaki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:31 blobrus wrote:On November 01 2011 05:24 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:16 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:03 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:58 Dfgj wrote:
[quote]
The cost of blueflame hellions isn't even remotely comparable to a flock of mutas lol
Buffing static def isn't a great idea anyways. It's already cost-effective, but it shouldn't be able to replace or eclipse actual units for defense. you cant compare the cost of 1 blueflame helion to that off a flock mutas first helions can't fly around, 2nd compared to mutas helions die extremely quickly you put a spine or bunker somewhere, its enough to stop the helion from poking you put a turret somewhere, mutas don't care and just kill it Please just stop, it's clear you don't have a grasp on balance. I saw you argue earlier that "bronze/silver/gold aren't stupid," I presume you are of that level? no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though . gz you can be really proud now, but I won't change my opinion on mutalisks Ok? As long as you realize your opinion is less valid, I'm sure neither of us are too bothered by the issue. 1 no it isn't 2 read above > you playing this game for a longer time doesn't make your opinion more valid, I'd say him being at a much higher level than you should make his understanding of the game a lot better than yours. Especially when your understanding seems to be that a small group of turrets should shut down a large muta flock. so you're a gold zerg on NA (would be about bronze on korean server) what does that make your opinion then?
Am I? I'm actually plat Na and gold Korea, so unless you really think the EU server is the greatest thing ever it certainly doesn't make your opinion any more valid than mine.
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As they said in the panel (and i agree with them) in late game situations against large numbers of mutas, protoss does not have any good answer, if the player is decent at all they can dodge storms or just never really engage you directly until yoou are forced to all in at their base , and even then there isnt really anything that can stand up to mutas properly, stalkers die to mutas of even numbers (at least in my experience) archons are decent but ive been seeing zerg players engage with their mutas in this sort of semi circle around your army that only lets the archons hit 1-2 mutas max.
I played a game not too long ago where i was at even income and bases as the zerg pretty much throughout the game (upgrades as well) but i literally could never engage his muta ball , my army composition was composed of, 7 or so pheonix , high templar, archons , stalkers , 2 sentries for GS, and some zealots to soak up the damage from thelings.
The lings would die fairly quickly , but the mutas would eventually clean up my entire army. This happened multiple times as i woudl lose my army and come close to max again before another engagement where i would tweak with the number of stalkers or ht's or archons, but to no avail.
The only reason i was even able to stay alive for as long as i did was because i made about 10 or so cannons at each of my expansions and more at my main.
Seems a bit ludicrous to have to go through that much trouble just to counter a tier 2 unit.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
They are underpowered in wol. Terran have free rocket turrets, because mules.
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On November 01 2011 05:16 malaki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:03 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:58 Dfgj wrote:On November 01 2011 04:52 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:50 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 04:48 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:48 FabledIntegral wrote:
[quote]
lolol GOD NO. Turrets are insanely strong vs mutas. Crazy good. Jeez, go back and look at BW when turrets tickled mutas T_T. Go and tech building armor + building range...! they are strong but big enough muta numbers just oneshot them so what, give turrets more HP so you get a chance to repair them before they die in 1 second More HP, they're 250? No, it's an absolutely awful solution, one of the worst I've heard proposed concerning them. Turrets are already over the top as anti air defense in my opinion, I can't possibly understand why you think a massive flock of mutas oneshotting turrets is a bad thing anyways. because after that you lose 10-20 workers in a few sconds just look at why the blueflame helion was nerfed, its the same reason also if turrets are over the top what are spore crawlers then? The cost of blueflame hellions isn't even remotely comparable to a flock of mutas lol Buffing static def isn't a great idea anyways. It's already cost-effective, but it shouldn't be able to replace or eclipse actual units for defense. you cant compare the cost of 1 blueflame helion to that off a flock mutas first helions can't fly around, 2nd compared to mutas helions die extremely quickly you put a spine or bunker somewhere, its enough to stop the helion from poking you put a turret somewhere, mutas don't care and just kill it Please just stop, it's clear you don't have a grasp on balance. I saw you argue earlier that "bronze/silver/gold aren't stupid," I presume you are of that level? no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though . gz you can be really proud now, but I won't change my opinion on mutalisks you playing this game for a longer time doesn't make your opinion more valid,
Umm It actually sort of does, because by playing at a much higher level than plat (which is where you are at) he has a deeper understanding of the game than you most likely do, so his opinion has a lot more backing and actual firsthand knowledge behind it ,while yours is more just your opinion and/or theorycrafting.
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On November 01 2011 05:16 malaki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:03 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:58 Dfgj wrote:On November 01 2011 04:52 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:50 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 04:48 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:48 FabledIntegral wrote:
[quote]
lolol GOD NO. Turrets are insanely strong vs mutas. Crazy good. Jeez, go back and look at BW when turrets tickled mutas T_T. Go and tech building armor + building range...! they are strong but big enough muta numbers just oneshot them so what, give turrets more HP so you get a chance to repair them before they die in 1 second More HP, they're 250? No, it's an absolutely awful solution, one of the worst I've heard proposed concerning them. Turrets are already over the top as anti air defense in my opinion, I can't possibly understand why you think a massive flock of mutas oneshotting turrets is a bad thing anyways. because after that you lose 10-20 workers in a few sconds just look at why the blueflame helion was nerfed, its the same reason also if turrets are over the top what are spore crawlers then? The cost of blueflame hellions isn't even remotely comparable to a flock of mutas lol Buffing static def isn't a great idea anyways. It's already cost-effective, but it shouldn't be able to replace or eclipse actual units for defense. you cant compare the cost of 1 blueflame helion to that off a flock mutas first helions can't fly around, 2nd compared to mutas helions die extremely quickly you put a spine or bunker somewhere, its enough to stop the helion from poking you put a turret somewhere, mutas don't care and just kill it Please just stop, it's clear you don't have a grasp on balance. I saw you argue earlier that "bronze/silver/gold aren't stupid," I presume you are of that level? no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though . gz you can be really proud now, but I won't change my opinion on mutalisks you playing this game for a longer time doesn't make your opinion more valid,
'
Actually from a zerg / random masters player I can attest to Fabled's argument being true. If you have trouble defending against mutas you have either got bad scouting and don't know that you actually need to keep marines and possibly a thor in your main for defese later on or you are incapable of making builds that can force mutas to fight your army (by pushing in good timings).
A good terran should be able to keep a zerg from getting over 20 mutas unless he messes up. You reduce muta ammounts by pushing (and hopefully killing some). But more so by actually forcing him to make banelings instead with his gas. If you can keep pusing and kill waves of banelings or trade well with the zerg army he will not afford to increase his muta stack. It may be hard to understand as a terran jhow important gas is for zerg and how pushing 30 seconds earlier can reduce muta count by 5. Just by having better macro and better timings you can make defending so much easier. Also killing drones / a hatch is absolutely huge to the potential muta stack.
If you have troubles defending against mutas you are probably too passive or have lacking macro. And I don't dinf it hard to defend against mutas with terran even though its by far my worst race. You just need to have a decent game sense and know how / when to leave units in your main and how / when to push him.
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Mass mutas in PvZ are almost impossible to deal with.
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On November 01 2011 05:36 blobrus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:33 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:31 blobrus wrote:On November 01 2011 05:24 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:16 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:03 malaki wrote:
[quote]
you cant compare the cost of 1 blueflame helion to that off a flock mutas
first helions can't fly around,
2nd compared to mutas helions die extremely quickly
you put a spine or bunker somewhere, its enough to stop the helion from poking
you put a turret somewhere, mutas don't care and just kill it Please just stop, it's clear you don't have a grasp on balance. I saw you argue earlier that "bronze/silver/gold aren't stupid," I presume you are of that level? no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though . gz you can be really proud now, but I won't change my opinion on mutalisks Ok? As long as you realize your opinion is less valid, I'm sure neither of us are too bothered by the issue. 1 no it isn't 2 read above > you playing this game for a longer time doesn't make your opinion more valid, I'd say him being at a much higher level than you should make his understanding of the game a lot better than yours. Especially when your understanding seems to be that a small group of turrets should shut down a large muta flock. so you're a gold zerg on NA (would be about bronze on korean server) what does that make your opinion then? Am I? I'm actually plat Na and gold Korea, so unless you really think the EU server is the greatest thing ever it certainly doesn't make your opinion any more valid than mine.
not the greatest thing but a lot greater than the NA server
also you're a zerg player and clearly biased
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EPT
