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On November 01 2011 05:37 malaki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:36 blobrus wrote:On November 01 2011 05:33 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:31 blobrus wrote:On November 01 2011 05:24 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:16 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:04 FabledIntegral wrote:
[quote]
Please just stop, it's clear you don't have a grasp on balance. I saw you argue earlier that "bronze/silver/gold aren't stupid," I presume you are of that level? no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though  . gz you can be really proud now, but I won't change my opinion on mutalisks Ok? As long as you realize your opinion is less valid, I'm sure neither of us are too bothered by the issue. 1 no it isn't 2 read above > you playing this game for a longer time doesn't make your opinion more valid, I'd say him being at a much higher level than you should make his understanding of the game a lot better than yours. Especially when your understanding seems to be that a small group of turrets should shut down a large muta flock. so you're a gold zerg on NA (would be about bronze on korean server) what does that make your opinion then? Am I? I'm actually plat Na and gold Korea, so unless you really think the EU server is the greatest thing ever it certainly doesn't make your opinion any more valid than mine. not the greatest thing but a lot greater than the NA server also you're a zerg player and clearly biased
Because you don't seem biased at all, especially when comparing a large muta flock to a small amount of bfh.
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On November 01 2011 05:37 malaki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:36 blobrus wrote:On November 01 2011 05:33 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:31 blobrus wrote:On November 01 2011 05:24 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:16 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:04 FabledIntegral wrote:
[quote]
Please just stop, it's clear you don't have a grasp on balance. I saw you argue earlier that "bronze/silver/gold aren't stupid," I presume you are of that level? no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though . gz you can be really proud now, but I won't change my opinion on mutalisks Ok? As long as you realize your opinion is less valid, I'm sure neither of us are too bothered by the issue. 1 no it isn't 2 read above > you playing this game for a longer time doesn't make your opinion more valid, I'd say him being at a much higher level than you should make his understanding of the game a lot better than yours. Especially when your understanding seems to be that a small group of turrets should shut down a large muta flock. so you're a gold zerg on NA (would be about bronze on korean server) what does that make your opinion then? Am I? I'm actually plat Na and gold Korea, so unless you really think the EU server is the greatest thing ever it certainly doesn't make your opinion any more valid than mine. not the greatest thing but a lot greater than the NA server also you're a zerg player and clearly biased
If you really want to get into it, EU server = NA server, both are < korean server. Being plat on EU does not make you diamond on NA, sorry to burst your bubble  But, now I'm derailing so for that I truely do apologize.
Bottom line is, in a game where skill should be the deciding factor, balance desicions should not be made about what feels strong/weak at low levels, where players play at a low skill level. Balance should be made at a high level where skill is equal, and high enough to execute most things. Skill is very volatile at lower levels, and much easier for someone to gain a burst of skill by realizing something or having something click. Skill is much more steady and even at the pro level, and you normally won't see a pro just get 2x as good over night and go from having trouble with something to destroying it and everyone the next day.
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On November 01 2011 05:14 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 18:21 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Umm, the point of the warhound replacing the thor is only for mech play. Mentioning the marine is pointless. The idea was that a mass of mutas would own up a bunch of a thors with magicboxing and essentially be the counter to mech and I guess they didn't want that.
For ZvP if you can amass 30 or so mutas it becomes incredibly difficult to deal with and you're basically forced to have half your army left in your base and if you leave you're basically forced into a base race. I don't think the tempest is the best answer here, it should always have been the phoenix, but mass mutas is definitely not easy to deal with.
I personally can't say I like either of the 2 new units in their new roles because they don't seem very interesting and microable. You point about mutas vs protoss only apply to low level protosses. Someone getting 30+ mutas before you get archons / templars implies you do nto know how to multitask or you were rocked early in the game by other stuff. Not, you dont actually have to base race vs mutas because the zerg will allways lose that situation so just attacking them keeps the mutas out of your base. If they elect to base race you simply win. Any protoss on a safe 3 base should be able to rape muta play with the gas to get HT / Archons / Stalkers. Additionally, any strong 2 base timing completely stops a muta build that doesn't have roaches or mass spines before he makes his first muta. So you force him to allocate either like 1500mins + 400 gas to roaches or about 1500 minerals to spine crawlers to even survive until your spire gets out. 30 mutas cost 3000 gas. If you spent 2000 gas on templars and archons you will be fine. For a zerg to get 30 mutas early enough to be a threat he would need to either blindly mass expand (in which case you can kill him) or stay behind you in mineral income and production capabilities in order to get that gas income really really fast. If he does the latter he will have close to no defenses and you can pressure him super hard. Mutas only work on low levels or vs passive players that do not scout properly.
Funny you should say that, because that's exactly the problem.
It's kind of hard to have both the army to safely take a third and also tech to storm/archons/blink against the increasing muta ball, which is also pretty good at stopping you from expanding. Mutaling's mobility means P has to play pretty cautious early on, which is ideal for Z to expand some more and harvest that delicious gas - an income disparity that puts P further behind.
If P can deflect the damage of the aggression and secure a third at a reasonable time, then you're completely right, it's not so bad.
On November 01 2011 05:26 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:03 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:58 Dfgj wrote:On November 01 2011 04:52 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:50 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 04:48 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:48 FabledIntegral wrote:
[quote]
lolol GOD NO. Turrets are insanely strong vs mutas. Crazy good. Jeez, go back and look at BW when turrets tickled mutas T_T. Go and tech building armor + building range...! they are strong but big enough muta numbers just oneshot them so what, give turrets more HP so you get a chance to repair them before they die in 1 second More HP, they're 250? No, it's an absolutely awful solution, one of the worst I've heard proposed concerning them. Turrets are already over the top as anti air defense in my opinion, I can't possibly understand why you think a massive flock of mutas oneshotting turrets is a bad thing anyways. because after that you lose 10-20 workers in a few sconds just look at why the blueflame helion was nerfed, its the same reason also if turrets are over the top what are spore crawlers then? The cost of blueflame hellions isn't even remotely comparable to a flock of mutas lol Buffing static def isn't a great idea anyways. It's already cost-effective, but it shouldn't be able to replace or eclipse actual units for defense. you cant compare the cost of 1 blueflame helion to that off a flock mutas first helions can't fly around, 2nd compared to mutas helions die extremely quickly you put a spine or bunker somewhere, its enough to stop the helion from poking you put a turret somewhere, mutas don't care and just kill it Please just stop, it's clear you don't have a grasp on balance. I saw you argue earlier that "bronze/silver/gold aren't stupid," I presume you are of that level? no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though . What a pretentious prick
He's still completely correct, from another GM.
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On November 01 2011 05:42 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:37 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:36 blobrus wrote:On November 01 2011 05:33 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:31 blobrus wrote:On November 01 2011 05:24 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:16 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:
[quote]
no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance
it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though . gz you can be really proud now, but I won't change my opinion on mutalisks Ok? As long as you realize your opinion is less valid, I'm sure neither of us are too bothered by the issue. 1 no it isn't 2 read above > you playing this game for a longer time doesn't make your opinion more valid, I'd say him being at a much higher level than you should make his understanding of the game a lot better than yours. Especially when your understanding seems to be that a small group of turrets should shut down a large muta flock. so you're a gold zerg on NA (would be about bronze on korean server) what does that make your opinion then? Am I? I'm actually plat Na and gold Korea, so unless you really think the EU server is the greatest thing ever it certainly doesn't make your opinion any more valid than mine. not the greatest thing but a lot greater than the NA server also you're a zerg player and clearly biased If you really want to get into it, EU server = NA server, both are < korean server. Being plat on EU does not make you diamond on NA, sorry to burst your bubble But, now I'm derailing so for that I truely do apologize. Bottom line is, in a game where skill should be the deciding factor, balance desicions should not be made about what feels strong/weak at low levels, where players play at a low skill level. Balance should be made at a high level where skill is equal, and high enough to execute most things. Skill is very volatile at lower levels, and much easier for someone to gain a burst of skill by realizing something or having something click. Skill is much more steady and even at the pro level, and you normally won't see a pro just get 2x as good over night and go from having trouble with something to destroying it and everyone the next day.
EU > NA, sorry to burst your bubble
and the rest of your post tl;dr
User was warned for this post
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On November 01 2011 05:37 malaki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:36 blobrus wrote:On November 01 2011 05:33 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:31 blobrus wrote:On November 01 2011 05:24 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:16 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:04 FabledIntegral wrote:
[quote]
Please just stop, it's clear you don't have a grasp on balance. I saw you argue earlier that "bronze/silver/gold aren't stupid," I presume you are of that level? no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though . gz you can be really proud now, but I won't change my opinion on mutalisks Ok? As long as you realize your opinion is less valid, I'm sure neither of us are too bothered by the issue. 1 no it isn't 2 read above > you playing this game for a longer time doesn't make your opinion more valid, I'd say him being at a much higher level than you should make his understanding of the game a lot better than yours. Especially when your understanding seems to be that a small group of turrets should shut down a large muta flock. so you're a gold zerg on NA (would be about bronze on korean server) what does that make your opinion then? Am I? I'm actually plat Na and gold Korea, so unless you really think the EU server is the greatest thing ever it certainly doesn't make your opinion any more valid than mine. not the greatest thing but a lot greater than the NA server also you're a zerg player and clearly biased
I'm afraid to say that I also think you're wrong. Mutas are not "too strong."
As a Z and T player I've been on both sides of this. Mutas die excruciatingly easily - in seconds. Terran has no right to complain about mutas at all, they have more than enough tools to thwart or outright destroy mutas.
If you're getting wiped out by mutas to the point where you think they're too strong, there's some other aspect of your game that is lacking. Scouting, macro, unit control, whatever it is - fix it and you'll see how easy it is to trounce mutas as a Terran.
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On November 01 2011 05:37 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:16 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:03 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:58 Dfgj wrote:On November 01 2011 04:52 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:50 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 04:48 malaki wrote:
[quote]
they are strong but big enough muta numbers just oneshot them
so what, give turrets more HP so you get a chance to repair them before they die in 1 second More HP, they're 250? No, it's an absolutely awful solution, one of the worst I've heard proposed concerning them. Turrets are already over the top as anti air defense in my opinion, I can't possibly understand why you think a massive flock of mutas oneshotting turrets is a bad thing anyways. because after that you lose 10-20 workers in a few sconds just look at why the blueflame helion was nerfed, its the same reason also if turrets are over the top what are spore crawlers then? The cost of blueflame hellions isn't even remotely comparable to a flock of mutas lol Buffing static def isn't a great idea anyways. It's already cost-effective, but it shouldn't be able to replace or eclipse actual units for defense. you cant compare the cost of 1 blueflame helion to that off a flock mutas first helions can't fly around, 2nd compared to mutas helions die extremely quickly you put a spine or bunker somewhere, its enough to stop the helion from poking you put a turret somewhere, mutas don't care and just kill it Please just stop, it's clear you don't have a grasp on balance. I saw you argue earlier that "bronze/silver/gold aren't stupid," I presume you are of that level? no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though . gz you can be really proud now, but I won't change my opinion on mutalisks you playing this game for a longer time doesn't make your opinion more valid, ' Actually from a zerg / random masters player I can attest to Fabled's argument being true. If you have trouble defending against mutas you have either got bad scouting and don't know that you actually need to keep marines and possibly a thor in your main for defese later on or you are incapable of making builds that can force mutas to fight your army (by pushing in good timings). A good terran should be able to keep a zerg from getting over 20 mutas unless he messes up. You reduce muta ammounts by pushing (and hopefully killing some). But more so by actually forcing him to make banelings instead with his gas. If you can keep pusing and kill waves of banelings or trade well with the zerg army he will not afford to increase his muta stack. It may be hard to understand as a terran jhow important gas is for zerg and how pushing 30 seconds earlier can reduce muta count by 5. Just by having better macro and better timings you can make defending so much easier. Also killing drones / a hatch is absolutely huge to the potential muta stack. If you have troubles defending against mutas you are probably too passive or have lacking macro. And I don't dinf it hard to defend against mutas with terran even though its by far my worst race. You just need to have a decent game sense and know how / when to leave units in your main and how / when to push him.
you say that a good player should beable to keep the muta coutn down, but i have seen many top top level games in the gsl where that cant be said and the muta count gets very very high. So if your critisizing normal players for not being able to keep the muta count down when high level code s players have been known to let it happen , it just doesnt seem realistic.
I do agree that it is alot easier to deal with mutas as terran than protoss and it is very dooable as terran, but i dont think its fair to say that a player is lacking skill because he lets the muta ball get too big. Ive seen MVP let the muta ball get monstrously big against Nestea and still find ways to deal with it. Ive also seen other really good players do the same and then get demolished by it.
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On November 01 2011 05:45 malaki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:42 hunts wrote:On November 01 2011 05:37 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:36 blobrus wrote:On November 01 2011 05:33 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:31 blobrus wrote:On November 01 2011 05:24 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:16 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:[quote] I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though . gz you can be really proud now, but I won't change my opinion on mutalisks Ok? As long as you realize your opinion is less valid, I'm sure neither of us are too bothered by the issue. 1 no it isn't 2 read above > you playing this game for a longer time doesn't make your opinion more valid, I'd say him being at a much higher level than you should make his understanding of the game a lot better than yours. Especially when your understanding seems to be that a small group of turrets should shut down a large muta flock. so you're a gold zerg on NA (would be about bronze on korean server) what does that make your opinion then? Am I? I'm actually plat Na and gold Korea, so unless you really think the EU server is the greatest thing ever it certainly doesn't make your opinion any more valid than mine. not the greatest thing but a lot greater than the NA server also you're a zerg player and clearly biased If you really want to get into it, EU server = NA server, both are < korean server. Being plat on EU does not make you diamond on NA, sorry to burst your bubble But, now I'm derailing so for that I truely do apologize. Bottom line is, in a game where skill should be the deciding factor, balance desicions should not be made about what feels strong/weak at low levels, where players play at a low skill level. Balance should be made at a high level where skill is equal, and high enough to execute most things. Skill is very volatile at lower levels, and much easier for someone to gain a burst of skill by realizing something or having something click. Skill is much more steady and even at the pro level, and you normally won't see a pro just get 2x as good over night and go from having trouble with something to destroying it and everyone the next day. EU > NA, sorry to burst your bubble and the rest of your post tl;dr
On November 01 2011 05:37 malaki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:36 blobrus wrote:On November 01 2011 05:33 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:31 blobrus wrote:On November 01 2011 05:24 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:16 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:04 FabledIntegral wrote:
[quote]
Please just stop, it's clear you don't have a grasp on balance. I saw you argue earlier that "bronze/silver/gold aren't stupid," I presume you are of that level? no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though . gz you can be really proud now, but I won't change my opinion on mutalisks Ok? As long as you realize your opinion is less valid, I'm sure neither of us are too bothered by the issue. 1 no it isn't 2 read above > you playing this game for a longer time doesn't make your opinion more valid, I'd say him being at a much higher level than you should make his understanding of the game a lot better than yours. Especially when your understanding seems to be that a small group of turrets should shut down a large muta flock. so you're a gold zerg on NA (would be about bronze on korean server) what does that make your opinion then? Am I? I'm actually plat Na and gold Korea, so unless you really think the EU server is the greatest thing ever it certainly doesn't make your opinion any more valid than mine. not the greatest thing but a lot greater than the NA server also you're a zerg player and clearly biased
You highly overestimate the skill discrepancy at the GM level. They aren't that different, from personal experience. Of course, it would be nice if I had more regular games against their players rather than the occasional Bo1, but their play (possibly due to latency) seems on par with NA.
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On November 01 2011 05:49 Executor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:37 StarBrift wrote:On November 01 2011 05:16 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:03 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:58 Dfgj wrote:On November 01 2011 04:52 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 04:50 FabledIntegral wrote:
[quote]
More HP, they're 250? No, it's an absolutely awful solution, one of the worst I've heard proposed concerning them. Turrets are already over the top as anti air defense in my opinion, I can't possibly understand why you think a massive flock of mutas oneshotting turrets is a bad thing anyways. because after that you lose 10-20 workers in a few sconds just look at why the blueflame helion was nerfed, its the same reason also if turrets are over the top what are spore crawlers then? The cost of blueflame hellions isn't even remotely comparable to a flock of mutas lol Buffing static def isn't a great idea anyways. It's already cost-effective, but it shouldn't be able to replace or eclipse actual units for defense. you cant compare the cost of 1 blueflame helion to that off a flock mutas first helions can't fly around, 2nd compared to mutas helions die extremely quickly you put a spine or bunker somewhere, its enough to stop the helion from poking you put a turret somewhere, mutas don't care and just kill it Please just stop, it's clear you don't have a grasp on balance. I saw you argue earlier that "bronze/silver/gold aren't stupid," I presume you are of that level? no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though . gz you can be really proud now, but I won't change my opinion on mutalisks you playing this game for a longer time doesn't make your opinion more valid, ' Actually from a zerg / random masters player I can attest to Fabled's argument being true. If you have trouble defending against mutas you have either got bad scouting and don't know that you actually need to keep marines and possibly a thor in your main for defese later on or you are incapable of making builds that can force mutas to fight your army (by pushing in good timings). A good terran should be able to keep a zerg from getting over 20 mutas unless he messes up. You reduce muta ammounts by pushing (and hopefully killing some). But more so by actually forcing him to make banelings instead with his gas. If you can keep pusing and kill waves of banelings or trade well with the zerg army he will not afford to increase his muta stack. It may be hard to understand as a terran jhow important gas is for zerg and how pushing 30 seconds earlier can reduce muta count by 5. Just by having better macro and better timings you can make defending so much easier. Also killing drones / a hatch is absolutely huge to the potential muta stack. If you have troubles defending against mutas you are probably too passive or have lacking macro. And I don't dinf it hard to defend against mutas with terran even though its by far my worst race. You just need to have a decent game sense and know how / when to leave units in your main and how / when to push him. you say that a good player should beable to keep the muta coutn down, but i have seen many top top level games in the gsl where that cant be said and the muta count gets very very high. So if your critisizing normal players for not being able to keep the muta count down when high level code s players have been known to let it happen , it just doesnt seem realistic.I do agree that it is alot easier to deal with mutas as terran than protoss and it is very dooable as terran, but i dont think its fair to say that a player is lacking skill because he lets the muta ball get too big. Ive seen MVP let the muta ball get monstrously big against Nestea and still find ways to deal with it. Ive also seen other really good players do the same and then get demolished by it.
The game isn't unilateral. T tries to keep the muta count down. Z tries to raise it. It makes sense that whoever does better in this gains an advantage.
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/facepalm at the guys who actually think mutas need a nerf...
if you compaire muta cost to any other army, cost for cost the mutas almost always lose in a straight up fight.
I agree mass mutas might not be fun, and its good they add smth like the tempest.
But if anything, they should bring back muta micro from BW.
For the amount of skill you need to control them and keep your macro going (how many ppl control mutas like DRG?) something like stacking would be nice, so you can haras with small groups better.
Also : turrets eat mutas. seriously since when do you care about putting a few more turrets, you got freaking mules.
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On November 01 2011 05:52 []Phase[] wrote:
/facepalm at the guys who actually think mutas need a nerf...
if you compaire muta cost to any other army, cost for cost the mutas almost always lose in a straight up fight.
I agree mass mutas might not be fun, and its good they add smth like the tempest.
But if anything, they should bring back muta micro from BW.
For the amount of skill you need to control them and keep your macro going (how many ppl control mutas like DRG?) something like stacking would be nice, so you can haras with small groups better.
Also : turrets eat mutas. seriously since when do you care about putting a few more turrets, you got freaking mules.
what do we have here, another zerg getting defensive? interesting, was
the same when infestors got nerfed,
also notice how all the posters on the last pages defending mutas were zerg players,
clearly unbiased, some adding their offrace to make their posts seem more valid
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On November 01 2011 05:52 []Phase[] wrote:
/facepalm at the guys who actually think mutas need a nerf...
if you compaire muta cost to any other army, cost for cost the mutas almost always lose in a straight up fight.
That's because an aspect of the cost of a mutalisk is their speed and ability to fly. If air units are cost-effective against ground units, there is no need to do anything but mass air units. It is better that they serve generally harass or support-based roles that rely on their enhanced mobility and positioning.
Not a fair comparison.
On November 01 2011 05:55 malaki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:52 []Phase[] wrote:
/facepalm at the guys who actually think mutas need a nerf...
if you compaire muta cost to any other army, cost for cost the mutas almost always lose in a straight up fight.
I agree mass mutas might not be fun, and its good they add smth like the tempest.
But if anything, they should bring back muta micro from BW.
For the amount of skill you need to control them and keep your macro going (how many ppl control mutas like DRG?) something like stacking would be nice, so you can haras with small groups better.
Also : turrets eat mutas. seriously since when do you care about putting a few more turrets, you got freaking mules. what do we have here, another zerg getting defensive? interesting, was the same when infestors got nerfed, also notice how all the posters on the last pages defending mutas were zerg players, clearly unbiased, some adding their offrace to make their posts seem more valid
GM P. Hush.
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On November 01 2011 05:21 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 04:43 malaki wrote:
seriously to all the zerg players here,
offrace as terran, get an equally skilled friend of yours to play zerg, and see how annoying mutalisks are, enjoy building turrets everywhere only to then get the turrets 1shot, then get your teclabs and reactors sniped off, while you try to catch the mutas with stimmed marines, and they just fly away, only to return a few seconds later and harass your next basee
(btw I play random and zerg was my main) Well... mutas exist in ZvZ too. Things are a little different, since queens are better AA than marines (range, hp, transfuse, open base) and spore crawlers are slightly worse than turrets, but as far as base defence goes the tactics are similar. Thing is, no Z in their right mind tries to fight a flock of 20+ mutas with just static and mineral-only queens: they go for infestors. Likewise, a competent T player usually gets thors. That way the mutas cannot bunch up on turrets to one-shot them: the risk of a thor being within 10 range of that turret and shooting a volley into their middle is too high.
What if the Thor was really big and really expensive and really slow? Hmmmmm. What then? Might a proposed solution be a smaller more agile unit that can deal with the mutas better?
That's just common sense. Would you agree?
Hydras are too slow so they're getting a speed upgrade. Ultras too "Big and Bulky and get stuck on themselves (Remind you of any unit?) so they're getting an upgrade. Zergs also getting a siege unit to help in situations. And some other stuff, pretty good stuff.
Protoss getting a bunch of stuff to help their problems.
I don't understand a lot of the comments. I though the reaction would be: "This makes perfect sense. Thor is too big, immobile and expensive, a smaller Goliath type unit would make more sense and can help in other match ups where Thor has no role"
Instead what I hear is "Stop complaining about Mutas, (Who's complaining, its a discussion thread) learn to play better, you bunch of whiners."
Unfortunately most threads turn into this. If anyone makes a point that you disagree with its a whine, or complaint, or worse. Instead of just acknowledging the point and explaining why you disagree.
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On November 01 2011 05:55 malaki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:52 []Phase[] wrote:
/facepalm at the guys who actually think mutas need a nerf...
if you compaire muta cost to any other army, cost for cost the mutas almost always lose in a straight up fight.
I agree mass mutas might not be fun, and its good they add smth like the tempest.
But if anything, they should bring back muta micro from BW.
For the amount of skill you need to control them and keep your macro going (how many ppl control mutas like DRG?) something like stacking would be nice, so you can haras with small groups better.
Also : turrets eat mutas. seriously since when do you care about putting a few more turrets, you got freaking mules. what do we have here, another zerg getting defensive? interesting, was the same when infestors got nerfed, also notice how all the posters on the last pages defending mutas were zerg players,clearly unbiased, some adding their offrace to make their posts seem more valid
I played Terran 80% of last season, to which I switched to random at the end. I did not play Zerg at any point. Thanks. My icon has been Zerg since BW.
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On November 01 2011 05:55 malaki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:52 []Phase[] wrote:
/facepalm at the guys who actually think mutas need a nerf...
if you compaire muta cost to any other army, cost for cost the mutas almost always lose in a straight up fight.
I agree mass mutas might not be fun, and its good they add smth like the tempest.
But if anything, they should bring back muta micro from BW.
For the amount of skill you need to control them and keep your macro going (how many ppl control mutas like DRG?) something like stacking would be nice, so you can haras with small groups better.
Also : turrets eat mutas. seriously since when do you care about putting a few more turrets, you got freaking mules. what do we have here, another zerg getting defensive? interesting, was the same when infestors got nerfed,
I think before you start discrediting grandmaster players (and everyone else's) opinion's, first get to a level where you can seriously argue about balance.
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On November 01 2011 05:58 mlspmatt wrote:
I don't understand a lot of the comments. I though the reaction would be: "This makes perfect sense. Thor is too big, immobile and expensive, a smaller Goliath type unit would make more sense and can help in other match ups where Thor has no role"
My knowledge of TvZ isn't all that great, but I see logic here.
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On November 01 2011 05:59 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:55 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:52 []Phase[] wrote:
/facepalm at the guys who actually think mutas need a nerf...
if you compaire muta cost to any other army, cost for cost the mutas almost always lose in a straight up fight.
I agree mass mutas might not be fun, and its good they add smth like the tempest.
But if anything, they should bring back muta micro from BW.
For the amount of skill you need to control them and keep your macro going (how many ppl control mutas like DRG?) something like stacking would be nice, so you can haras with small groups better.
Also : turrets eat mutas. seriously since when do you care about putting a few more turrets, you got freaking mules. what do we have here, another zerg getting defensive? interesting, was the same when infestors got nerfed, also notice how all the posters on the last pages defending mutas were zerg players,clearly unbiased, some adding their offrace to make their posts seem more valid I played Terran 80% of last season, to which I switched to random at the end. I did not play Zerg at any point. Thanks. My icon has been Zerg since BW.
doesn't matter what you offraced the last month for a short time, when 90% of the games you played this year were as zerg
come show us your bnet profile? I want to see the GM,
only valid guy is the GM protoss, but he's and excepction and why would a protoss care about ZvT mutas, when in PvZ almost no zerg uses them right now
User was warned for this post
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On November 01 2011 05:58 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:21 Meff wrote:On November 01 2011 04:43 malaki wrote:
seriously to all the zerg players here,
offrace as terran, get an equally skilled friend of yours to play zerg, and see how annoying mutalisks are, enjoy building turrets everywhere only to then get the turrets 1shot, then get your teclabs and reactors sniped off, while you try to catch the mutas with stimmed marines, and they just fly away, only to return a few seconds later and harass your next basee
(btw I play random and zerg was my main) Well... mutas exist in ZvZ too. Things are a little different, since queens are better AA than marines (range, hp, transfuse, open base) and spore crawlers are slightly worse than turrets, but as far as base defence goes the tactics are similar. Thing is, no Z in their right mind tries to fight a flock of 20+ mutas with just static and mineral-only queens: they go for infestors. Likewise, a competent T player usually gets thors. That way the mutas cannot bunch up on turrets to one-shot them: the risk of a thor being within 10 range of that turret and shooting a volley into their middle is too high. What if the Thor was really big and really expensive and really slow? Hmmmmm. What then? Might a proposed solution be a smaller more agile unit that can deal with the mutas better? That's just common sense. Would you agree? Hydras are too slow so they're getting a speed upgrade. Ultras too "Big and Bulky and get stuck on themselves (Remind you of any unit?) so they're getting an upgrade. Zergs also getting a siege unit to help in situations. And some other stuff, pretty good stuff. Protoss getting a bunch of stuff to help their problems. I don't understand a lot of the comments. I though the reaction would be: "This makes perfect sense. Thor is too big, immobile and expensive, a smaller Goliath type unit would make more sense and can help in other match ups where Thor has no role" Instead what I hear is "Stop complaining about Mutas, (Who's complaining, its a discussion thread) learn to play better, you bunch of whiners." Unfortunately most threads turn into this. If anyone makes a point that you disagree with its a whine, or complaint, or worse. Instead of just acknowledging the point and explaining why you disagree.
I wonder though what will Thor's Anti air be like if it still had one, Valkyrie Splash? or Viking type single focus?
Also,
Another, does shredders shred, both X and Y axis? if it does it makes for viable muta deterent. Another question is if Shredders are activated next to buildings
Warhounds sound pretty good, though I wish they looked more impressive
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On November 01 2011 06:01 malaki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:59 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:55 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:52 []Phase[] wrote:
/facepalm at the guys who actually think mutas need a nerf...
if you compaire muta cost to any other army, cost for cost the mutas almost always lose in a straight up fight.
I agree mass mutas might not be fun, and its good they add smth like the tempest.
But if anything, they should bring back muta micro from BW.
For the amount of skill you need to control them and keep your macro going (how many ppl control mutas like DRG?) something like stacking would be nice, so you can haras with small groups better.
Also : turrets eat mutas. seriously since when do you care about putting a few more turrets, you got freaking mules. what do we have here, another zerg getting defensive? interesting, was the same when infestors got nerfed, also notice how all the posters on the last pages defending mutas were zerg players,clearly unbiased, some adding their offrace to make their posts seem more valid I played Terran 80% of last season, to which I switched to random at the end. I did not play Zerg at any point. Thanks. My icon has been Zerg since BW. doesn't matter what you offraced the last month for a short time, when 90% of the games you played this year were as zerg come show us your bnet profile? I want to see the GM, only valid guy is the GM protoss, but he's and expection and why would a protoss care about ZvT mutas, when in PvZ almost no zerg uses them right now
I have spent about 6 months exclusively playing Terran. Are you trolling now?
And if you'd like the account, here's SC2ranks.net showing when I hit GM on April 3, 2011. And you're a little slow, so yes, even though it doesn't say "FabledIntegral," "FabIntegral" is the name I go by on bnet.
http://www.sc2ranks.com/team/4343227#4:2011
Feel free to stop making stupid comments at anytime.
And here's when I had been playing Terran for about ~400 games.
http://www.sc2ranks.com/team/4343227#9:2011
At one point you see "world rank 14." That was when I mentioned being rank 2 in NA with Terran. I lost a few games after and got a new account, hence the plateau soon after.
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On November 01 2011 05:37 malaki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:36 blobrus wrote:On November 01 2011 05:33 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:31 blobrus wrote:On November 01 2011 05:24 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:20 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:16 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:13 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 05:08 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:04 FabledIntegral wrote:
[quote]
Please just stop, it's clear you don't have a grasp on balance. I saw you argue earlier that "bronze/silver/gold aren't stupid," I presume you are of that level? no I play random and I'm in plat on EU, so if you're not masters or above on NA, I don't really give a fuck about what you think about my right to post on balance it doesn't even matter my argument still holds true, gold silver and bronze players are not stupid, you won't win all your games in gold by just 6pooling I was grandmasters, so thanks, please begin to give a fuck. Admittedly when I switched to Terran, I only managed to reach rank 2 Masters (overall, not in my division) because I had no experience in TvP and my winrate was around 31% at the time GM opened. My TvT and TvZ was fine though . gz you can be really proud now, but I won't change my opinion on mutalisks Ok? As long as you realize your opinion is less valid, I'm sure neither of us are too bothered by the issue. 1 no it isn't 2 read above > you playing this game for a longer time doesn't make your opinion more valid, I'd say him being at a much higher level than you should make his understanding of the game a lot better than yours. Especially when your understanding seems to be that a small group of turrets should shut down a large muta flock. so you're a gold zerg on NA (would be about bronze on korean server) what does that make your opinion then? Am I? I'm actually plat Na and gold Korea, so unless you really think the EU server is the greatest thing ever it certainly doesn't make your opinion any more valid than mine. not the greatest thing but a lot greater than the NA server also you're a zerg player and clearly biased
A clear case of the kettle calling the teapot black (or however it goes).
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i wish storm or archons were better for muta defense. they're both pretty bad cuz mutas dont clump much anymore. any good zerg will go right on top of your probes to force a storm on your own units or just dodge it.
most of the time it ends up being defend til maxed then push and hope you force a retreat, or else you're losing your base.
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EPT
