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On November 01 2011 06:33 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:29 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 06:12 Velr wrote:On November 01 2011 05:45 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:42 hunts wrote:On November 01 2011 05:37 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:36 blobrus wrote:On November 01 2011 05:33 malaki wrote:On November 01 2011 05:31 blobrus wrote:On November 01 2011 05:24 malaki wrote:
[quote]
1 no it isn't
2 read above > you playing this game for a longer time doesn't make your opinion more valid,
I'd say him being at a much higher level than you should make his understanding of the game a lot better than yours. Especially when your understanding seems to be that a small group of turrets should shut down a large muta flock. so you're a gold zerg on NA (would be about bronze on korean server) what does that make your opinion then? Am I? I'm actually plat Na and gold Korea, so unless you really think the EU server is the greatest thing ever it certainly doesn't make your opinion any more valid than mine. not the greatest thing but a lot greater than the NA server also you're a zerg player and clearly biased If you really want to get into it, EU server = NA server, both are < korean server. Being plat on EU does not make you diamond on NA, sorry to burst your bubble  But, now I'm derailing so for that I truely do apologize. Bottom line is, in a game where skill should be the deciding factor, balance desicions should not be made about what feels strong/weak at low levels, where players play at a low skill level. Balance should be made at a high level where skill is equal, and high enough to execute most things. Skill is very volatile at lower levels, and much easier for someone to gain a burst of skill by realizing something or having something click. Skill is much more steady and even at the pro level, and you normally won't see a pro just get 2x as good over night and go from having trouble with something to destroying it and everyone the next day. EU > NA, sorry to burst your bubble and the rest of your post tl;dr User was warned for this post I'm Diamond on EU with like... 30 games in the last 2 seasons combined (or 3? I dunno)... I doubt these are "more" games than you did. I got terrible mechanics, i got no "real" BO's... Yet, i'm still ranked higher than you. You should just shut up when a GM player tells you something or disagrees with you, you got like a snowballs chance in hell to actually be "right". great nobody cares, also "snowballs chance," wtf are you trying to say ? whatever does not make you sound smarter 1. I would value his opinion more than yours, if you consider that "caring." 2. It doesn't make him sound smarter necessarily, but your response made you sound a lot more dumb. It's an expression - if English isn't your native language you probably shouldn't be criticizing other people on the English language. Not to mention if you just think about it for a second you should clearly realize what it means.
1 since I don't give a fuck about you or your opinion that doesn#t matter
btw you're still wrong
2 o rly? keep on trying to tell me what to do or not, by now you should have learned that I dont care about your biased opinion, you are as unbiased as idras zerg balance suggestions that were on reddit a while ago
btw props to TL mods for giving me 2 warnings, but your terrible posts, waste of storage space are tolerated, how about you try to stay on topic, as far as I remember FabledIntegral is the guy who brought up the "what league are you in, your opinion is less valid" bullshit
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On November 01 2011 06:23 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:22 ComaDose wrote:On November 01 2011 06:18 Blasterion wrote:On November 01 2011 06:12 mlspmatt wrote:On November 01 2011 06:02 Blasterion wrote:On November 01 2011 05:58 mlspmatt wrote:On November 01 2011 05:21 Meff wrote:On November 01 2011 04:43 malaki wrote:
seriously to all the zerg players here,
offrace as terran, get an equally skilled friend of yours to play zerg, and see how annoying mutalisks are, enjoy building turrets everywhere only to then get the turrets 1shot, then get your teclabs and reactors sniped off, while you try to catch the mutas with stimmed marines, and they just fly away, only to return a few seconds later and harass your next basee
(btw I play random and zerg was my main) Well... mutas exist in ZvZ too. Things are a little different, since queens are better AA than marines (range, hp, transfuse, open base) and spore crawlers are slightly worse than turrets, but as far as base defence goes the tactics are similar. Thing is, no Z in their right mind tries to fight a flock of 20+ mutas with just static and mineral-only queens: they go for infestors. Likewise, a competent T player usually gets thors. That way the mutas cannot bunch up on turrets to one-shot them: the risk of a thor being within 10 range of that turret and shooting a volley into their middle is too high. What if the Thor was really big and really expensive and really slow? Hmmmmm. What then? Might a proposed solution be a smaller more agile unit that can deal with the mutas better? That's just common sense. Would you agree? Hydras are too slow so they're getting a speed upgrade. Ultras too "Big and Bulky and get stuck on themselves (Remind you of any unit?) so they're getting an upgrade. Zergs also getting a siege unit to help in situations. And some other stuff, pretty good stuff. Protoss getting a bunch of stuff to help their problems. I don't understand a lot of the comments. I though the reaction would be: "This makes perfect sense. Thor is too big, immobile and expensive, a smaller Goliath type unit would make more sense and can help in other match ups where Thor has no role" Instead what I hear is "Stop complaining about Mutas, (Who's complaining, its a discussion thread) learn to play better, you bunch of whiners." Unfortunately most threads turn into this. If anyone makes a point that you disagree with its a whine, or complaint, or worse. Instead of just acknowledging the point and explaining why you disagree. I wonder though what will Thor's Anti air be like if it still had one, Valkyrie Splash? or Viking type single focus? Also, Another, does shredders shred, both X and Y axis? if it does it makes for viable muta deterent. Another question is if Shredders are activated next to buildings Warhounds sound pretty good, though I wish they looked more impressive I agree. I never liked the Thor. Its a tier 3 unit that's very expensive and across the three Terran match ups had a very small role: anti-muta. That never made any sense to me. I always preferred the Goliath , or similar unit, that has more use and isn't tier 3. I also agree that the current design is .... poor, to put it mildly. Its a video game, make it look like an intimidating unit - not a lanky mechanical nerd. Honestly I don't really like the concept of the Thor super unit or any kind of super super unit, but I'd probably be pretty pissed if they cut the thor cuz...... I bought the CE..... this is a great point! blizzard has to keep the thor in! Or those who have them could just get new skins on the new units, like the warhound :o.
Honestly I wouldn't mind if warhounds didn't get put in but rather make vikings more viable against mutas, not like a counter but can go toe to toe with them, With warhound and Shredder it feels like terran has quite the unit bloat
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Back to the topic at hand: while it is totally reasonable to say that mutas are not really at all unbalanced (god they're so expensive), it's also not unreasonable to desire a really hard counter. The nature of mutalisks is to become unmanageable at larger numbers and blizzard really doesn't want a game where the hive tech end game killing blow for zerg is always just MOAR MUTAS.
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when they said the Protoss needs air AoE to deal with the mutas i was like WTF High Templar, and don't tell me it is too hard to storm the shit out of a muta ball bc even a second in the storm greatly reduces the health and therebye effectiveness of the muta ball.
imho the tempest is needed by the toss but vs vikings not mutas, give that shit plus vs armored or make the viking light like it should have been.
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On November 01 2011 06:42 JakeBurton wrote:
Back to the topic at hand: while it is totally reasonable to say that mutas are not really at all unbalanced (god they're so expensive), it's also not unreasonable to desire a really hard counter. The nature of mutalisks is to become unmanageable at larger numbers and blizzard really doesn't want a game where the hive tech end game killing blow for zerg is always just MOAR MUTAS.
I feel the problem about it is that our T2 is so much better than our T3, as the Zerg Hive tech (other than speedling attack upgrade) is so...slow/clumsy, as well as both can (technically) be countered by 1-2 units per race, so T3 isn't always even the best option for the Zerg (for the cost), so we're forced to pidgenhole in T2 (mass mutas, or mass infestors a patch or so ago). or even before T1.5(roaches)+T2 (hydras) for the whole game
Then again that's what I feel, but... Whatever =_=
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On November 01 2011 06:39 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:23 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 06:22 ComaDose wrote:On November 01 2011 06:18 Blasterion wrote:On November 01 2011 06:12 mlspmatt wrote:On November 01 2011 06:02 Blasterion wrote:On November 01 2011 05:58 mlspmatt wrote:On November 01 2011 05:21 Meff wrote:On November 01 2011 04:43 malaki wrote:
seriously to all the zerg players here,
offrace as terran, get an equally skilled friend of yours to play zerg, and see how annoying mutalisks are, enjoy building turrets everywhere only to then get the turrets 1shot, then get your teclabs and reactors sniped off, while you try to catch the mutas with stimmed marines, and they just fly away, only to return a few seconds later and harass your next basee
(btw I play random and zerg was my main) Well... mutas exist in ZvZ too. Things are a little different, since queens are better AA than marines (range, hp, transfuse, open base) and spore crawlers are slightly worse than turrets, but as far as base defence goes the tactics are similar. Thing is, no Z in their right mind tries to fight a flock of 20+ mutas with just static and mineral-only queens: they go for infestors. Likewise, a competent T player usually gets thors. That way the mutas cannot bunch up on turrets to one-shot them: the risk of a thor being within 10 range of that turret and shooting a volley into their middle is too high. What if the Thor was really big and really expensive and really slow? Hmmmmm. What then? Might a proposed solution be a smaller more agile unit that can deal with the mutas better? That's just common sense. Would you agree? Hydras are too slow so they're getting a speed upgrade. Ultras too "Big and Bulky and get stuck on themselves (Remind you of any unit?) so they're getting an upgrade. Zergs also getting a siege unit to help in situations. And some other stuff, pretty good stuff. Protoss getting a bunch of stuff to help their problems. I don't understand a lot of the comments. I though the reaction would be: "This makes perfect sense. Thor is too big, immobile and expensive, a smaller Goliath type unit would make more sense and can help in other match ups where Thor has no role" Instead what I hear is "Stop complaining about Mutas, (Who's complaining, its a discussion thread) learn to play better, you bunch of whiners." Unfortunately most threads turn into this. If anyone makes a point that you disagree with its a whine, or complaint, or worse. Instead of just acknowledging the point and explaining why you disagree. I wonder though what will Thor's Anti air be like if it still had one, Valkyrie Splash? or Viking type single focus? Also, Another, does shredders shred, both X and Y axis? if it does it makes for viable muta deterent. Another question is if Shredders are activated next to buildings Warhounds sound pretty good, though I wish they looked more impressive I agree. I never liked the Thor. Its a tier 3 unit that's very expensive and across the three Terran match ups had a very small role: anti-muta. That never made any sense to me. I always preferred the Goliath , or similar unit, that has more use and isn't tier 3. I also agree that the current design is .... poor, to put it mildly. Its a video game, make it look like an intimidating unit - not a lanky mechanical nerd. Honestly I don't really like the concept of the Thor super unit or any kind of super super unit, but I'd probably be pretty pissed if they cut the thor cuz...... I bought the CE..... this is a great point! blizzard has to keep the thor in! Or those who have them could just get new skins on the new units, like the warhound :o. Honestly I wouldn't mind if warhounds didn't get put in but rather make vikings more viable against mutas, not like a counter but can go toe to toe with them, With warhound and Shredder it feels like terran has quite the unit bloat
Personally, I've always thought that the campaign upgrade for Vikings that enabled them to do splash dmg would be an amazing upgrade for vikings to have. Would make killing mass clumped BL's easier as well as dealing with clumped mutas. Merely forcing mutas to magic box heavily takes away from their potency, imo.
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Should've just added upgrade that gives the phoenix splash... like corsairs...
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On November 01 2011 06:45 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:42 JakeBurton wrote:
Back to the topic at hand: while it is totally reasonable to say that mutas are not really at all unbalanced (god they're so expensive), it's also not unreasonable to desire a really hard counter. The nature of mutalisks is to become unmanageable at larger numbers and blizzard really doesn't want a game where the hive tech end game killing blow for zerg is always just MOAR MUTAS. I feel the problem about it is that our T2 is so much better than our T3, as the Zerg Hive tech (other than speedling attack upgrade) is so...slow/clumsy, as well as both can (technically) be countered by 1-2 units per race, so T3 isn't always even the best option for the Zerg (for the cost), so we're forced to pidgenhole in T2 (mass mutas, or mass infestors a patch or so ago). or even before T1.5(roaches)+T2 (hydras) for the whole game Then again that's what I feel, but... Whatever =_=
But what you say is absolutely true, Broodlords are very vulnerable and is only used for the death push pretty much.tier 2 grants alot of map control and mobility and limiting opponent mobility.
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On November 01 2011 06:45 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:39 Blasterion wrote:On November 01 2011 06:23 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 06:22 ComaDose wrote:On November 01 2011 06:18 Blasterion wrote:On November 01 2011 06:12 mlspmatt wrote:On November 01 2011 06:02 Blasterion wrote:On November 01 2011 05:58 mlspmatt wrote:On November 01 2011 05:21 Meff wrote:On November 01 2011 04:43 malaki wrote:
seriously to all the zerg players here,
offrace as terran, get an equally skilled friend of yours to play zerg, and see how annoying mutalisks are, enjoy building turrets everywhere only to then get the turrets 1shot, then get your teclabs and reactors sniped off, while you try to catch the mutas with stimmed marines, and they just fly away, only to return a few seconds later and harass your next basee
(btw I play random and zerg was my main) Well... mutas exist in ZvZ too. Things are a little different, since queens are better AA than marines (range, hp, transfuse, open base) and spore crawlers are slightly worse than turrets, but as far as base defence goes the tactics are similar. Thing is, no Z in their right mind tries to fight a flock of 20+ mutas with just static and mineral-only queens: they go for infestors. Likewise, a competent T player usually gets thors. That way the mutas cannot bunch up on turrets to one-shot them: the risk of a thor being within 10 range of that turret and shooting a volley into their middle is too high. What if the Thor was really big and really expensive and really slow? Hmmmmm. What then? Might a proposed solution be a smaller more agile unit that can deal with the mutas better? That's just common sense. Would you agree? Hydras are too slow so they're getting a speed upgrade. Ultras too "Big and Bulky and get stuck on themselves (Remind you of any unit?) so they're getting an upgrade. Zergs also getting a siege unit to help in situations. And some other stuff, pretty good stuff. Protoss getting a bunch of stuff to help their problems. I don't understand a lot of the comments. I though the reaction would be: "This makes perfect sense. Thor is too big, immobile and expensive, a smaller Goliath type unit would make more sense and can help in other match ups where Thor has no role" Instead what I hear is "Stop complaining about Mutas, (Who's complaining, its a discussion thread) learn to play better, you bunch of whiners." Unfortunately most threads turn into this. If anyone makes a point that you disagree with its a whine, or complaint, or worse. Instead of just acknowledging the point and explaining why you disagree. I wonder though what will Thor's Anti air be like if it still had one, Valkyrie Splash? or Viking type single focus? Also, Another, does shredders shred, both X and Y axis? if it does it makes for viable muta deterent. Another question is if Shredders are activated next to buildings Warhounds sound pretty good, though I wish they looked more impressive I agree. I never liked the Thor. Its a tier 3 unit that's very expensive and across the three Terran match ups had a very small role: anti-muta. That never made any sense to me. I always preferred the Goliath , or similar unit, that has more use and isn't tier 3. I also agree that the current design is .... poor, to put it mildly. Its a video game, make it look like an intimidating unit - not a lanky mechanical nerd. Honestly I don't really like the concept of the Thor super unit or any kind of super super unit, but I'd probably be pretty pissed if they cut the thor cuz...... I bought the CE..... this is a great point! blizzard has to keep the thor in! Or those who have them could just get new skins on the new units, like the warhound :o. Honestly I wouldn't mind if warhounds didn't get put in but rather make vikings more viable against mutas, not like a counter but can go toe to toe with them, With warhound and Shredder it feels like terran has quite the unit bloat Personally, I've always thought that the campaign upgrade for Vikings that enabled them to do splash dmg would be an amazing upgrade for vikings to have. Would make killing mass clumped BL's easier as well as dealing with clumped mutas. Merely forcing mutas to magic box heavily takes away from their potency, imo.
There is a problem with that though, with splash, Vikings will absolute dominate air superiority and there is nothing the zerg can do to fight that then they lose all their Overlords and die, that's why I don't think splash is a good idea, but more base armor or speed something to fight mutas on even footing would be desirable
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On November 01 2011 06:47 eshlow wrote:
Should've just added upgrade that gives the phoenix splash... like corsairs...
I think the issue is more so their weakness vs armored units. Imo, Phoenix should do something like 7 + 3 vs light, instead of 5+5. At least make them ok vs corrupters. Only issue is that this brings problems with Phoenix/Collosi. Possibly offset by giving vikings that splash dmg upgrade I mentioned earlier^^.
On November 01 2011 06:50 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:45 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 06:39 Blasterion wrote:On November 01 2011 06:23 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 06:22 ComaDose wrote:On November 01 2011 06:18 Blasterion wrote:On November 01 2011 06:12 mlspmatt wrote:On November 01 2011 06:02 Blasterion wrote:On November 01 2011 05:58 mlspmatt wrote:On November 01 2011 05:21 Meff wrote:
[quote]
Well... mutas exist in ZvZ too. Things are a little different, since queens are better AA than marines (range, hp, transfuse, open base) and spore crawlers are slightly worse than turrets, but as far as base defence goes the tactics are similar.
Thing is, no Z in their right mind tries to fight a flock of 20+ mutas with just static and mineral-only queens: they go for infestors. Likewise, a competent T player usually gets thors. That way the mutas cannot bunch up on turrets to one-shot them: the risk of a thor being within 10 range of that turret and shooting a volley into their middle is too high. What if the Thor was really big and really expensive and really slow? Hmmmmm. What then? Might a proposed solution be a smaller more agile unit that can deal with the mutas better? That's just common sense. Would you agree? Hydras are too slow so they're getting a speed upgrade. Ultras too "Big and Bulky and get stuck on themselves (Remind you of any unit?) so they're getting an upgrade. Zergs also getting a siege unit to help in situations. And some other stuff, pretty good stuff. Protoss getting a bunch of stuff to help their problems. I don't understand a lot of the comments. I though the reaction would be: "This makes perfect sense. Thor is too big, immobile and expensive, a smaller Goliath type unit would make more sense and can help in other match ups where Thor has no role" Instead what I hear is "Stop complaining about Mutas, (Who's complaining, its a discussion thread) learn to play better, you bunch of whiners." Unfortunately most threads turn into this. If anyone makes a point that you disagree with its a whine, or complaint, or worse. Instead of just acknowledging the point and explaining why you disagree. I wonder though what will Thor's Anti air be like if it still had one, Valkyrie Splash? or Viking type single focus? Also, Another, does shredders shred, both X and Y axis? if it does it makes for viable muta deterent. Another question is if Shredders are activated next to buildings Warhounds sound pretty good, though I wish they looked more impressive I agree. I never liked the Thor. Its a tier 3 unit that's very expensive and across the three Terran match ups had a very small role: anti-muta. That never made any sense to me. I always preferred the Goliath , or similar unit, that has more use and isn't tier 3. I also agree that the current design is .... poor, to put it mildly. Its a video game, make it look like an intimidating unit - not a lanky mechanical nerd. Honestly I don't really like the concept of the Thor super unit or any kind of super super unit, but I'd probably be pretty pissed if they cut the thor cuz...... I bought the CE..... this is a great point! blizzard has to keep the thor in! Or those who have them could just get new skins on the new units, like the warhound :o. Honestly I wouldn't mind if warhounds didn't get put in but rather make vikings more viable against mutas, not like a counter but can go toe to toe with them, With warhound and Shredder it feels like terran has quite the unit bloat Personally, I've always thought that the campaign upgrade for Vikings that enabled them to do splash dmg would be an amazing upgrade for vikings to have. Would make killing mass clumped BL's easier as well as dealing with clumped mutas. Merely forcing mutas to magic box heavily takes away from their potency, imo. There is a problem with that though, with splash, Vikings will absolute dominate air superiority and there is nothing the zerg can do to fight that then they lose all their Overlords and die, that's why I don't think splash is a good idea, but more base armor or speed something to fight mutas on even footing would be desirable
Well, it depends. Quite simply, if the splash is small, 10 vikings would still lose to say 20 mutas, and you'd have to invest a lot into reactored starports, reducing your tank count, etc. and making you more susceptible to ground attacks. It's not like it would be anything near what the Thor can do, and you could tweak is so the splash dmg isn't actually the "full" dmg, but a lessor amount (think reaver splash dmg from BW dealing less on the outer areas, same with seeker missile dealing less on outer areas, etc.). If it maybe only dealt 3 splash dmg per missile (which it fires two), I don't think it would be gamebreaking.
Also, as stated, it would be an upgrade. So as you're initially massing up those vikings you're pretty much contained to your base as mutas will destroy you vikings, which severely affects everything. It's not like you're Zerg where you can get the upgrade, then make a TON of mutas at once.
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I don't really think blizz considers mutas op, but rather that they want to add some more diversity to the game. I think they just want to give players more options. You want to go marine tank? go right ahead. Or maybe you prefer pure mech. I'm excited to see the new strats players will come up with.
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On November 01 2011 06:51 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:47 eshlow wrote:
Should've just added upgrade that gives the phoenix splash... like corsairs... I think the issue is more so their weakness vs armored units. Imo, Phoenix should do something like 7 + 3 vs light, instead of 5+5. At least make them ok vs corrupters. Only issue is that this brings problems with Phoenix/Collosi. Possibly offset by giving vikings that splash dmg upgrade I mentioned earlier^^. Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:50 Blasterion wrote:On November 01 2011 06:45 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 06:39 Blasterion wrote:On November 01 2011 06:23 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 01 2011 06:22 ComaDose wrote:On November 01 2011 06:18 Blasterion wrote:On November 01 2011 06:12 mlspmatt wrote:On November 01 2011 06:02 Blasterion wrote:On November 01 2011 05:58 mlspmatt wrote:
[quote]
What if the Thor was really big and really expensive and really slow? Hmmmmm. What then? Might a proposed solution be a smaller more agile unit that can deal with the mutas better?
That's just common sense. Would you agree?
Hydras are too slow so they're getting a speed upgrade. Ultras too "Big and Bulky and get stuck on themselves (Remind you of any unit?) so they're getting an upgrade. Zergs also getting a siege unit to help in situations. And some other stuff, pretty good stuff.
Protoss getting a bunch of stuff to help their problems.
I don't understand a lot of the comments. I though the reaction would be: "This makes perfect sense. Thor is too big, immobile and expensive, a smaller Goliath type unit would make more sense and can help in other match ups where Thor has no role"
Instead what I hear is "Stop complaining about Mutas, (Who's complaining, its a discussion thread) learn to play better, you bunch of whiners."
Unfortunately most threads turn into this. If anyone makes a point that you disagree with its a whine, or complaint, or worse. Instead of just acknowledging the point and explaining why you disagree.
I wonder though what will Thor's Anti air be like if it still had one, Valkyrie Splash? or Viking type single focus? Also, Another, does shredders shred, both X and Y axis? if it does it makes for viable muta deterent. Another question is if Shredders are activated next to buildings Warhounds sound pretty good, though I wish they looked more impressive I agree. I never liked the Thor. Its a tier 3 unit that's very expensive and across the three Terran match ups had a very small role: anti-muta. That never made any sense to me. I always preferred the Goliath , or similar unit, that has more use and isn't tier 3. I also agree that the current design is .... poor, to put it mildly. Its a video game, make it look like an intimidating unit - not a lanky mechanical nerd. Honestly I don't really like the concept of the Thor super unit or any kind of super super unit, but I'd probably be pretty pissed if they cut the thor cuz...... I bought the CE..... this is a great point! blizzard has to keep the thor in! Or those who have them could just get new skins on the new units, like the warhound :o. Honestly I wouldn't mind if warhounds didn't get put in but rather make vikings more viable against mutas, not like a counter but can go toe to toe with them, With warhound and Shredder it feels like terran has quite the unit bloat Personally, I've always thought that the campaign upgrade for Vikings that enabled them to do splash dmg would be an amazing upgrade for vikings to have. Would make killing mass clumped BL's easier as well as dealing with clumped mutas. Merely forcing mutas to magic box heavily takes away from their potency, imo. There is a problem with that though, with splash, Vikings will absolute dominate air superiority and there is nothing the zerg can do to fight that then they lose all their Overlords and die, that's why I don't think splash is a good idea, but more base armor or speed something to fight mutas on even footing would be desirable Well, it depends. Quite simply, if the splash is small, 10 vikings would still lose to say 20 mutas, and you'd have to invest a lot into reactored starports, reducing your tank count, etc. and making you more susceptible to ground attacks. It's not like it would be anything near what the Thor can do, and you could tweak is so the splash dmg isn't actually the "full" dmg, but a lessor amount (think reaver splash dmg from BW dealing less on the outer areas, same with seeker missile dealing less on outer areas, etc.). If it maybe only dealt 3 splash dmg per missile (which it fires two), I don't think it would be gamebreaking.
what if tempest had no AA, instead it's like a phoenix and uses a AoE cast called "Gravity Prison" which temporarily brings Air units "to the ground"
they still fly and attack but are considered ground units when attacked. they can move but slowly so they can't escape the AoE ring as fast as they would without the snare
On vikings
I see how that could work
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ZvT mutas are part of the most balanced matchup in WoL. The mutas were cool, they took skill to use and in good hands they were effective, but not OP as equal skill and tactics from the opponent allowed mutas to be defended against. Also, mech has weak anti-air so nerfing mutas against it is stupid as once the Zerg breaks out the brood lords you run into the same problem of the horrible mech AA except worse because, unlike the thor, the warhound cannot outrange the broodlords and shoot them. Pure mech play will remain dead against zerg.
ZvP mutas are, if not decent, then just horrible. Stalkers, templars and archons counter them, and all are part of a standard composition, not to mention the phoenix, a living hard counter. All you need to do is turtle up on however many bases you feel comfortable on then murder the zerg for going for a gas and supply intensive dead weight in a straight up fight.
As a former zerg player, I feel cheated for nerfing the most fun playstyle and unit I have ever touched. As a protoss player, I feel cheated for a useless niche unit that cannot even fulfill its role because of its very nature (it is a capital ship and thus cannot fight the most common tactic, a muta SWITCH) and would rather have a new unit that would be a tiny bit more useful than the carrier.
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On November 01 2011 06:55 A.J. wrote:
I don't really think blizz considers mutas op, but rather that they want to add some more diversity to the game. I think they just want to give players more options. You want to go marine tank? go right ahead. Or maybe you prefer pure mech. I'm excited to see the new strats players will come up with.
This is a good point. Terran is very bio heavy right now and the Thor doesn't help matters. I prefer BW style Mech play and would like to see more of it. That's what I associate with Terran.
All these Marines and marauders running around every game doesn't feel Terran.
And i like the idea about a Viking splash upgrade, I think having Viking/Muta wars would be awesome. I'd like to see that.
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On November 01 2011 07:00 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:55 A.J. wrote:
I don't really think blizz considers mutas op, but rather that they want to add some more diversity to the game. I think they just want to give players more options. You want to go marine tank? go right ahead. Or maybe you prefer pure mech. I'm excited to see the new strats players will come up with. This is a good point. Terran is very bio heavy right now and the Thor doesn't help matters. I prefer BW style Mech play and would like to see more of it. That's what I associate with Terran. All these Marines and marauders running around every game doesn't feel Terran.
Mech love! it is the future of us terrans!
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On November 01 2011 07:00 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:55 A.J. wrote:
I don't really think blizz considers mutas op, but rather that they want to add some more diversity to the game. I think they just want to give players more options. You want to go marine tank? go right ahead. Or maybe you prefer pure mech. I'm excited to see the new strats players will come up with. This is a good point. Terran is very bio heavy right now and the Thor doesn't help matters. I prefer BW style Mech play and would like to see more of it. That's what I associate with Terran. All these Marines and marauders running around every game doesn't feel Terran. And i like the idea about a Viking splash upgrade, I think having Viking/Muta wars would be awesome. I'd like to see that.
Bionic play vs Zerg, or even Marine/Tank, feels super "terran" like to me :o. Maybe it's just coming from a BW background.
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On November 01 2011 06:58 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
ZvT mutas are part of the most balanced matchup in WoL. The mutas were cool, they took skill to use and in good hands they were effective, but not OP as equal skill and tactics from the opponent allowed mutas to be defended against. Also, mech has weak anti-air so nerfing mutas against it is stupid as once the Zerg breaks out the brood lords you run into the same problem of the horrible mech AA except worse because, unlike the thor, the warhound cannot outrange the broodlords and shoot them. Pure mech play will remain dead against zerg.
ZvP mutas are, if not decent, then just horrible. Stalkers, templars and archons counter them, and all are part of a standard composition, not to mention the phoenix, a living hard counter. All you need to do is turtle up on however many bases you feel comfortable on then murder the zerg for going for a gas and supply intensive dead weight in a straight up fight.
As a former zerg player, I feel cheated for nerfing the most fun playstyle and unit I have ever touched. As a protoss player, I feel cheated for a useless niche unit that cannot even fulfill its role because of its very nature (it is a capital ship and thus cannot fight the most common tactic, a muta SWITCH) and would rather have a new unit that would be a tiny bit more useful than the carrier.
That's kind of what worries me. That's why I favor buffing vikings to fight on equal footing vs muta as a viable mech anti air deterent
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On November 01 2011 07:01 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:00 mlspmatt wrote:On November 01 2011 06:55 A.J. wrote:
I don't really think blizz considers mutas op, but rather that they want to add some more diversity to the game. I think they just want to give players more options. You want to go marine tank? go right ahead. Or maybe you prefer pure mech. I'm excited to see the new strats players will come up with. This is a good point. Terran is very bio heavy right now and the Thor doesn't help matters. I prefer BW style Mech play and would like to see more of it. That's what I associate with Terran. All these Marines and marauders running around every game doesn't feel Terran. Mech love! it is the future of us terrans!
Well, its the past, the history of Terran. Remains to be seen whether its the future as well.
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On November 01 2011 07:03 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:00 mlspmatt wrote:On November 01 2011 06:55 A.J. wrote:
I don't really think blizz considers mutas op, but rather that they want to add some more diversity to the game. I think they just want to give players more options. You want to go marine tank? go right ahead. Or maybe you prefer pure mech. I'm excited to see the new strats players will come up with. This is a good point. Terran is very bio heavy right now and the Thor doesn't help matters. I prefer BW style Mech play and would like to see more of it. That's what I associate with Terran. All these Marines and marauders running around every game doesn't feel Terran. And i like the idea about a Viking splash upgrade, I think having Viking/Muta wars would be awesome. I'd like to see that. Bionic play vs Zerg, or even Marine/Tank, feels super "terran" like to me :o. Maybe it's just coming from a BW background.
To be honest, Bio Mech was kinda the default way to play tvz wasn't it?
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until mech can put out alot of pressure to force zerg to make units, while able to walk across and straight up killing him in a reasonable time if he gets greedy, terran will still be heavy bio
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EPT
