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Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
In WoL at least Mutas aren't that big of a problem. Without Mutas Zerg has no chance against Terrans, getting dropped and splashed by Tanks to oblivion, and are a good way to gain map control and initiative against Protoss. I like the units though, it's nice to have another option to deal with Mutas in PvZ I suppose, although the Phoenix is hilarious bad at it in smaller numbers. While I'd be happy to be able to not make marines for once. | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
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Antares777
United States1971 Posts
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Haze.884
New Zealand192 Posts
(but somehow need to limit the number of muta that can be microed this way otherwise its op) and thor removed. But thats just BW fanboi in me talking :/ | ||
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Mortal
2943 Posts
On October 31 2011 11:28 Mobius_1 wrote: It's kinda funny that they basically put the Thor in the air and gave it to Protoss, and put the Corsair on the ground and gave it to Terran. In WoL at least Mutas aren't that big of a problem. Without Mutas Zerg has no chance against Terrans, getting dropped and splashed by Tanks to oblivion, and are a good way to gain map control and initiative against Protoss. I like the units though, it's nice to have another option to deal with Mutas in PvZ I suppose, although the Phoenix is hilarious bad at it in smaller numbers. While I'd be happy to be able to not make marines for once. You've obviously never seen Infestors used. | ||
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ronpaul012
United States769 Posts
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
On October 31 2011 11:32 Antares777 wrote: The Tempest has a lot more potential than just anti-mass Mutalisk. It helps a ton late game defending your Colossi against Vikings and Corruptors, which clump together when the focus fire, making the AoE insanely good, and with some Stalkers, the Vikings and Corruptors will have a difficult time destroying Colossi. To be honest i will reserve any judgement until i have actually play a version of the game, but one aspect of your post scares me quite a bit. Let me elaborate: Tempest is an air unit. Viking is Terrans only anti air unit which is meant to deal with armored targets (unless your a zerg in which case ghosts with snipe count). So if the Tempest can beat Vikings in a battle (somewhat cost effectively) what exactly are terrans supposed to do against the Hots protoss deathball of Tempest, Colossi and some gateway stuff? If they cannot counter colossi with vikings what exactly is supposed to kill them from the Terran arsenal? Will we exchange bio + support for pure mech as the go to build in Hots? because that is what your post sounds like. On the flip side, if the Tempest dies to a cloud of vikings (as the carrier currently does) protoss will have another air unit they won't build vs Terran... | ||
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AxelTVx
Canada916 Posts
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Alpino
Brazil4390 Posts
On October 31 2011 11:28 Mobius_1 wrote: It's kinda funny that they basically put the Thor in the air and gave it to Protoss, and put the Corsair on the ground and gave it to Terran. In WoL at least Mutas aren't that big of a problem. Without Mutas Zerg has no chance against Terrans, getting dropped and splashed by Tanks to oblivion, and are a good way to gain map control and initiative against Protoss. I like the units though, it's nice to have another option to deal with Mutas in PvZ I suppose, although the Phoenix is hilarious bad at it in smaller numbers. While I'd be happy to be able to not make marines for once. Well you obviously don't know what you're talking about in this case ): . Stephano apparently can win with ling only . But hey, I do go Mutas every ZvT. | ||
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IMLyte
Canada714 Posts
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
On October 25 2011 18:27 Krehlmar wrote: Anyone who has a problem with Mutalisks is just not doing a great job or have tried enough. Seriously there is not a huge problem with Mutalisks, it's not like Mutalisks win more games than Blink Stalkers/Marine rushes yet we do not see a unit for zerg to counter either of these (since all their changes are late game). So it's just populism from Dustin Browder imo to appeal to the less than grandmaster players. That's basically it. It seems like protoss and terran need a unit that HARD COUNTERS every zerg unit. I don't fucking get it seriously. | ||
Kiett
United States7639 Posts
On October 31 2011 11:32 Antares777 wrote: The Tempest has a lot more potential than just anti-mass Mutalisk. It helps a ton late game defending your Colossi against Vikings and Corruptors, which clump together when the focus fire, making the AoE insanely good, and with some Stalkers, the Vikings and Corruptors will have a difficult time destroying Colossi. So... the way to counter mass anti-air is to go air. Okay. You know that one of the biggest flaws with the carrier was that it shared the same weaknesses as the colossi. If the tempest is taking the carrier's place as the prime capital ship (high cost, long build times, same weaknesses due to armored/massive), then what is to stop the vikings and corrupters from just destroying the tempest? And if that's not the case, and the tempest is indeed able to fight vikings/corrupters efficiently, then that would just be terrible design. An air unit being able to destroy dedicated anti-air. That makes sense. | ||
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red4ce
United States7313 Posts
I remember in the transition from Starcraft to Starcraft: Brood War, mutalisks were overpowered in Starcraft 1. The addition of the corsair, the valkyrie, and goliath range where to fight against mutalisks, a known problem. Wait, really? I didn't play SC until BW had already come out but I thought mutalisks weren't all that dangerous until July popularized muta stacking. | ||
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
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Crusifics
Canada11 Posts
I was interested to see how many Thors was needed to kill just 30 mutalisks and I got up to 9 on a unit test map. That is 2700 minerals 1800 gas and 54 food worth of Thors down the drain with 6 mutas remaining to harass your base with another wave of Mutas coming. BTW (30xMutas = 3000minerals 3000 gas and 60 food if your wondering) I was sort of shocked though when I saw 30 marines (3/3 upgrades + stimpacks + shield) kill 30 mutalisks (no upgrades) with 18 remaining though the upgrades were the biggest determining factor for without them marines just melt away to the glaive attacks. Blizzard only wants to fix this by giving Terran a more "mobile" version of the Thor hence why I approve what Blizzard is doing. I also don't like using marines early/mid/late game and would prefer to use them only early game just like the other races or as meat shields like how zerg use zerglings as meat shields in late game. Anyways the Warhound wasn't even created to destroy zerg mutas but more the Protoss death ball. As for Protoss I have a feeling they are going to hate HotS more than anyone else. EDIT: Now that I think about it Mutalisks aren't overpowered at all. Its Magic Boxing that is overpowered. The "H" key is basically the mutalisk stimpack key and for those who say you can't target fire while Magic Boxing... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=280953 Where there's a will there's way and Zerg have found a way. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
If you give us the ability to snipe big dedicated anti-muta weapons like Thors and Archons, and use that cloud spell, Mutas would be way too strong. And Muta/Viper still will probably be very solid even with Tempests (which should arrive very late in the game and be quite slow) and Warhounds (which should be weaker in small numbers, instead of completely shutting down harrass like the Thor did). If anything, HotS might be a buff to Mutas. | ||
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Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
On October 31 2011 11:38 Mortal wrote: You've obviously never seen Infestors used. Viable certainly, but a lot harder to be good at at lower levels. Of course players like Destiny can do it but it's a bit of a stretch to expect Gold player to be able to deflect drops as well with Infestors. Also I exaggerate a lot, excuse me.  | ||
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Meff
Italy287 Posts
On October 31 2011 10:30 l2ap wrote: 7. Muta have splash damage. This exponentially increases the damage they do in numbers to clumped units. This is the reason why mass muta can kill mass phoenix. Maybe Phoenix should magic box against muta? No. If you really want to discuss the balance of an unit, please document yourself well beforehand. Mutalisks do not have splash damage. They have a bouncing attack that hits two secondary targets. This is a huge difference because, unlike what you claim, the damage does not "increase exponentially". It bounces twice, doing a third and then a ninth of the original damage, period. Say, for an unupgraded muta you will never get more than 13 damage per hit (9+3+1), even if you have a 200/200 army stacked up in a single point. Any mass muta killing mass phoenix scenario is because the phoenixes are pathetically outnumbered, not for any other reason. Phoenixes slaughter mutas so much that they'd keep on doing so even if the entire 13 damage was applied directly, rather than spread out. As a quick test: 40 mutas against 40 phoenixes in the unit tester for equal gas and supply, 29 phoenixes were left over. 36 mutas against 24 phoenixes for equal mineral (lol!), 7 phoenixes were left. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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Mobius_1
United Kingdom2763 Posts
On October 31 2011 13:38 0neder wrote: Sometimes the answer should be 'don't let it happen.' In BW there were dozens of 'don't let it happen' situations. Races shouldn't have easy answers to everything. But there has to be a way to win as Terran on 2 base against a 200/200 Broodlord/Infestor army! /sarcasm Very true. If the Zerg can get 40 Mutas you are doing something very wrong indeed. | ||
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