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On October 26 2011 06:36 HinagikUx wrote:
the thing is, when Z goes mutas in zvt the matchup is so 1-dimensional.
in zvp, 20-30 mutas = almost impossible to stop unless the Z is retarded and walks into a storm.
You sound like rotterdammer. If you cant stop 20-30 muta, muta are not your problem. You fucked up earlier or got outplayed
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On October 26 2011 06:41 DrSuit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 06:36 HinagikUx wrote:
the thing is, when Z goes mutas in zvt the matchup is so 1-dimensional.
in zvp, 20-30 mutas = almost impossible to stop unless the Z is retarded and walks into a storm. You sound like rotterdammer. If you cant stop 20-30 muta, muta are not your problem. You fucked up earlier or got outplayed
Taking this post as an example:
People say muta ist fine, no anti-muta is needed. Terrans have marines! Toss have the all-mighty stalkers.
But did anybody think about the following:
These new units are for HotS! That's an expansion with a flying zerg unit in it, that can cast a dark swarm-like ability. So If those 20 mutas and 2 vipers come to your house, all of a sudden your marines are looking for some hand to hand combat.
Even if you think mass mutas is fine now, have you ever considered the viper added into a mutaball?
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i think the tempest shouldnt ahve a +light so it can be used more effectively VS vikings
right now it feels like in TvP if the P goes collosus and the T gets vikings (which is every game) its granted that the collosus will die since the vikings range and flyingness makes them impossible to snipe which is different from corrupters so P having a unit that can then engage in micro wars with the vikings (similar to Corrupter/infester VS cikings in late game TvZ) the game would be more dynamic
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you mean, the marines would have to move like 2 inches until shooting again?...
I mean, just throw a HSM at them and they also have to move... ... ... Oh, you don't do that? I wonder why.
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On October 26 2011 06:48 testthewest wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 06:41 DrSuit wrote:On October 26 2011 06:36 HinagikUx wrote:
the thing is, when Z goes mutas in zvt the matchup is so 1-dimensional.
in zvp, 20-30 mutas = almost impossible to stop unless the Z is retarded and walks into a storm. You sound like rotterdammer. If you cant stop 20-30 muta, muta are not your problem. You fucked up earlier or got outplayed Taking this post as an example: People say muta ist fine, no anti-muta is needed. Terrans have marines! Toss have the all-mighty stalkers. But did anybody think about the following: These new units are for HotS! That's an expansion with a flying zerg unit in it, that can cast a dark swarm-like ability. So If those 20 mutas and 2 vipers come to your house, all of a sudden your marines are looking for some hand to hand combat. Even if you think mass mutas is fine now, have you ever considered the viper added into a mutaball?
marines can stim and stutter out of the cloud, stalkers can blink out of the cloud
and the cloud reduces range to1 not to melee so you can still fihgt the mutas by getting underneath them
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On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest.
You're paying a lot for that muta ball, it better do something
Zergs don't spend 3000/3000 to get a 30 muta ball to kill 20 workers. If i wanted to that i'd just play terran and make 1 banshee. Point is that when you pay that much for 30 mutas they better do something other than kill workers because they also cant fight many units head on.
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The addition of the warhound is very good because since thors weren't efficient vs Mutas, Playing mech was almost impossible. Then, you had to go marine tank. By adding the warhound, Blizzard hopes players will be able to devellop new strategies
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On October 25 2011 19:00 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 18:55 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Marines have to get lucky to kill mutas. Good mutas always skirt around you until you leave, and drop one, at best, for a stim attack.
Thors just zone an area out until they realize he's alone, then they counter their hard counter. Mutas are incredibly hard to deal with as terran, no bullshit or joking here. I much rather infestor, as I know I can split and stim box etc and win with micro most times. Mutas? You have to get plain lucky to kill them Watch IMMvp vs DRG (best muta control in the world) on megalopolis mlg Anaheim and tell me mutas cannot be defeated unless you are lucky.
You mean that match between a top 10-20 Zerg and the absolute best player in the world???
Yeah, that one game means a lot.
On a side note, I do not believe mutas are op vs. terran.
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On October 26 2011 06:48 testthewest wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 06:41 DrSuit wrote:On October 26 2011 06:36 HinagikUx wrote:
the thing is, when Z goes mutas in zvt the matchup is so 1-dimensional.
in zvp, 20-30 mutas = almost impossible to stop unless the Z is retarded and walks into a storm. You sound like rotterdammer. If you cant stop 20-30 muta, muta are not your problem. You fucked up earlier or got outplayed Taking this post as an example: People say muta ist fine, no anti-muta is needed. Terrans have marines! Toss have the all-mighty stalkers. But did anybody think about the following: These new units are for HotS! That's an expansion with a flying zerg unit in it, that can cast a dark swarm-like ability. So If those 20 mutas and 2 vipers come to your house, all of a sudden your marines are looking for some hand to hand combat. Even if you think mass mutas is fine now, have you ever considered the viper added into a mutaball?
I asume the viped is going to be pretty immobile? Not sure if anything is know about this????
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On October 26 2011 07:09 Lore-Fighting wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 19:00 Micket wrote:On October 25 2011 18:55 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Marines have to get lucky to kill mutas. Good mutas always skirt around you until you leave, and drop one, at best, for a stim attack.
Thors just zone an area out until they realize he's alone, then they counter their hard counter. Mutas are incredibly hard to deal with as terran, no bullshit or joking here. I much rather infestor, as I know I can split and stim box etc and win with micro most times. Mutas? You have to get plain lucky to kill them Watch IMMvp vs DRG (best muta control in the world) on megalopolis mlg Anaheim and tell me mutas cannot be defeated unless you are lucky. You mean that match between a top 10-20 Zerg and the absolute best player in the world??? Yeah, that one game means a lot. On a side note, I do not believe mutas are op vs. terran.
DRG is top 10-20 Zerg... really? DRG is top 3 zerg, even maybe top 5 depending on where your fanboy-tendencies lie...
I really don't like the new units, not because they are OP v mutas or anything, but I really don't see them serving too big or too revolutionary a purpose... In ZvP, when you go mutas, there is that timing window where mutas do shit in a real fight and Protoss can march in and rape... without ever having to build one of these fancy things. In ZvT, marines are cost efficient enough that warhound is just a unit you get if you are going to go full mech... idk i honestly think the thor was fine as it was as they have the potential to do so much damage, and only get shat on when they are out of position: user error, not design error
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I always find muta play pretty figures in tvz if im going thor/hellion i tend to roll it pretty hard. I would say that when mutas get to like the 25+ count they can just roll through anything which makes taking any sort of expansion/map presence is difficult when they can tear through most static defence including a lone thor however when this occurs it normally due to a mistake i made earliar so its not really a balance problem..
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On October 26 2011 05:31 worldsnap wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 05:28 Deathmanbob wrote:On October 26 2011 05:25 worldsnap wrote:On October 26 2011 04:54 PopcornColonel wrote:
I'm gonna have to say ZvT is fine, with regard to mutalisks, because of the insane DPS and mobility of marines paired with medivacs, and the great splash damage and usefulness of thors.
For ZvP, however, mutalisks are a bit too strong, because blink stalkers don't have the DPS to deal with a flock of mutalisks before they escape, and phoenixes are so expensive and utterly useless outside of fighting mutalisks. Also, phoenixes are fairly difficult to micro against mutalisks, which can just a-move. Are you serious. You realize that phoenixes can attack without even a-moving.... they are the easiest unit to micro in the whole game. And they are faster than mutas. you do realize that at a point phoenixes no longer counter muta right? also that getting 10 muta out is WAY faster then getting 10 phoenixes What does that have to do with his statement that "Also, phoenixes are fairly difficult to micro against mutalisks, which can just a-move"? Nothing at all.
What the hell does the ease of a unit have to do with anything? Don't put your lower league personal experience in this. Zergs want to go mutas in ZvP if they don't die to a timing push. Being able to deny bases while macroing and harassing is the worst thing for a Protoss player.
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I personally feel that the muta is one of the most balanced units in the game O_o. Its heavily micro dependant, it forces a reaction out of oppnonents, gives map control, but it is weak in direct engagements. It fits a role perfectly as a harrass unit.
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On October 26 2011 07:22 Tuk wrote:
I always find muta play pretty figures in tvz if im going thor/hellion i tend to roll it pretty hard. I would say that when mutas get to like the 25+ count they can just roll through anything which makes taking any sort of expansion/map presence is difficult when they can tear through most static defence including a lone thor however when this occurs it normally due to a mistake i made earliar so its not really a balance problem..
i think everyone is looking past this and complain how muta is op because terran can't move out of the base. no good zerg goes muta without any previous action to reduce marine number or trade units, for most part. what leads up to the muta is just as important as the mutas themselves.
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Goliath and "slow as hell corsair" is nothing compared to science vessels or actual corsairs. All these additions is a return to BW, and a divergence from it.
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Even if you think mass mutas is fine now, have you ever considered the viper added into a mutaball?
Have you ever considered that for the last year a T1 50 mineral unit has completely crushed a T2 100 mineral/100 gas unit? I won't even go into how long it takes to get them or how to get enough for them to effective.
I can understand Mutalisks being difficult to handle, but this is after they make 30 of them. Scout it...go hit, he is forced to make units which means no resources for Mutalisks, gg.
So what, he just made 8-11 Mutalisks rallied to my base...change your rally or warp in. At this point in the game you can A-move into his base and you will crush the Zerg player so fast he won't know what happened. Assuming normal timings.
The problem with the Mutalisk is its not beefy like it was in Brood War so you need 30 of them. But you can't make them Brood War Mutalisks and keep them in this game because of the way the economy works. Too be honest the only solid harass unit that Zerg has is forced to be made in packs of 20-30 in order to be effective, that is a little ridiculous. All in all...they are fine I suppose. =/
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On October 26 2011 06:58 Immolate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest. You're paying a lot for that muta ball, it better do something Zergs don't spend 3000/3000 to get a 30 muta ball to kill 20 workers. If i wanted to that i'd just play terran and make 1 banshee. Point is that when you pay that much for 30 mutas they better do something other than kill workers because they also cant fight many units head on.
My point is that being able to basically overpower anything but an entire army with extremely fast flying units is simply too good, not just in SC2, but in any RTS game. There is always a point past which it simply becomes impossible to move out of one's base, unless there's some kind of extremely hard counter in place. That's why BW added Corsairs and Valkyries.
The fact that they're fairly expensive is irrelevant. I can make 30 Phoenix and they will cost even more, but that doesn't entitle me to being able to lift buildings, as fun as that would be. Besides, the point of Mutas really isn't killing workers, against Protoss at least. It's possible to not lose even a single worker to them and still lose horribly.
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Its hard for me to argue that mutalisks arent incredibly good vs protoss. Obviously, against Terran is a different story because of turrets, stim marines + medivac, and thors. Against Protoss though, their static defense is 50% more expensive, stalkers do less DPS and are much more expensive than marines, archons dont have enough range and mutas dont stack like in BW for them to be as scary, phoenixes are jokes compared to corsairs vs mutas, storms can be dodged easily. Its not hard to see that a critical mass of mutas can be difficult for protoss to deal with.
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OP is reading too much into blizzard's decision to replace the thor. They've stated multiple times that the new units are being added purely based on design decisions, not on the basis of balancing match ups. Blizzard didn't like the current design of the thor, so they axed it. Same thing for adding the tempest, blizzard just wanted to add a cool unit people would actually use.
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I feel that there a lot of very ignorant things said in page 19.
Seeker Missle costs 125 energy. Seeker missile needs to be researched. Corvid reactor needs to be researched. You need a tech lab on a starport. Even after you get corvid reactor, you still need to wait for 50 energy. After you waited for 50 energy, you use it on mutas and mutas just run away since they are faster. Ravens also cost 200 gas.
What zerg in their right mind would let melee range marines in range of their mutas? That's absurd. Having to move marines out of the cloud gives your mutas plenty of time to kill every single scv in a mineral line because marines are going to have take time to move out of the cloud and sometimes may be out of position to retaliate depending on maps..
Stop theorycrafting please.
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EPT
