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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
with that said, i think tempest will behave similar to thor. weak with only one or two (magic box) but stronger with support or in larger numbers. warhound is the new goliath (afaik) and it'll be very nice vs air compared to thor. i think protoss needs something like corsair or larger archon splash radius or dark archon's maelstrom instead of tempest. on second though, it'll be awesome if KA's spot is replaced with maelstrom upgrade for archons. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
I'm getting a horrible feeling of that we're getting the other races discarded units :p Bad overseer turns into Oracle. Bad thor turns into new protoss capital ship. And we have the second snowglobe that just turns into whatever you feel like. I smell conspiracy! | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On October 26 2011 04:00 rotegirte wrote: But wouldn't that fall under "well, if you let the protoss acquire 200/200, it is hard"? It's not like dozens of mutas appear out of thin air Zerg players frequently let Protoss acquire 200/200, then promptly crush the army. The whole "deathball" fascination with Protoss was forgotten (by pros, at least) about 5 months ago. But your analogy does make sense - it's like "how do I win vs a player that triple expands before units?" Unfortunately, with the Warp Gate nerf and generally Zergs getting better at fending off pressure, and the fast third style vs FFE, the standard response of "kill him before he gets them" no longer works very well, and while Mutas are in no way OP at the highest level, at Diamond/below they probably get too hard to deal with. So instead of directly nerfing Mutas Blizzard has given Protoss a better way to get rid of them. Surely the more pertinent question would be: why make the main role of a unit that is 1 of 3 units intended to cover as many design flaws of Protoss as possible to kill mass Mutas, a problem which only comes into play in 1 match-up and less than 5% of the time in pro-games? After all, what else is this unit supposed to cover? Beating the mass Overlord strategy? Destroying the mass Warp Prism pressure expand strategy used so commonly in PvP? I just don't understand it. The unit needs to have some other function to make it a viable replacement to the Carrier. | ||
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dde
Canada796 Posts
On October 26 2011 01:21 worldsnap wrote: Mutas have insane DPS? They do 9.6 dps against unarmored units (if you count all 3 bounces)... 6.5 dps against units with 1 armor. That's terrible for a 2 supply unit that costs 100 gas. I understand you can stack them and they fly etc, but for their cost they hardly do "insane" dps. i really wonder what league you are in because at Top level what most zergs do is mass muta and tramsition out other stuff | ||
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Lurk
Germany359 Posts
When you think of it, there is no real downside of mutas except maybe their low range. Their speed is exceptional, their DPS and HP per cost are very high, they scale good with upgrades, can attack both ground and air and they are light (viking, stalker and voidray have +armored while only phoenix and thor have +light). Also, as they regenerate, it's quite easy to keep them alive a long time with good micro. | ||
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blagoonga123
United States2068 Posts
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Deathmanbob
United States2356 Posts
On October 26 2011 04:00 rotegirte wrote: But wouldn't that fall under "well, if you let the protoss acquire 200/200, it is hard"? It's not like dozens of mutas appear out of thin air But vs any good zerg there is really nothing you can do about it, as a zerg if a toss turtles to a 200/200 army you can take the map and get out infester brood lord and have a chance, or you can do the 300 food fight. As a toss vs a zerg who gets 30 muta you cant take the map, you cant push out, there is nothing you can do but hope the zerg makes a mistake. In truth its not the mutas that kill you in the end, its that you have your army split to hold off his harras and the zerg decides its time to just push the middle with mass muta ling and you dont have the forces to hold off his huge push and you are forced to GG | ||
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idonthinksobro
3138 Posts
they dont seem to be overpowered at a pro level - protoss needs to scout and react. i feel that protoss has a huge advantage if zergs go muta and they are aware of it. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
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rycho
United States360 Posts
think of it this way - mutas are a staple unit in zvt, and thats against turrets (way WAY better than cannons) and marines (way better than stalkers). i find that even if the protoss player can take a third base and tech to storm, which is unlikely, the zerg has 5-6 bases and can easily remax on whatever composition he wants to fight the blink stalker/storm protoss army. protoss antiair and static defenses are extremely inefficient, and the phoenix doesn't do a good job of countering the mutalisk in a reactionary way. if you try to mass phoenix to counter mass muta, the opponent just takes the map with some spore crawlers at each base and you lose the game because you have 20-30 units that can't hit anything that isn't an air unit, and you're at a big economic disadvantage. to make matters worse, the corruptor beats the phoenix badly in a straight up fight, and in combination with zerg production mechanics its just simply impossible to keep up in the air battle. | ||
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Honeybadger
United States821 Posts
We need these units because of the fundamental design of the mutalisk. It's an incredible harasser in smallish flocks, but when the numbers break 15-20, there just isn't an answer for that much splash. All you need to do is defend pushes while your mutalisk horde flies around at warp speed kapwning anything that doesn't have a thor, 6 marines and six upgraded turrets around it, because we can't mass repair once the numbers get that high, the SCV's just melt off. The other problem for the terran is that a marine ball just isn't enough vs high muta numbers. It also requires tons of micro and careful building planning due to the short range. Our defenses against mutalisks have to be razor-thin, and unless you're one of the best players out there, it's just not reasonable to punish the player who has the -DEFENDER'S ADVANTAGE- by making him micro a hundred times more than the player who has the easily microed warpspeed mini deathball. In closing, mutalisks are not overpowered. But their design dictates the creation of units that discourage players from just making 40 of them and winning the game. And in everything except the pro level (and even against some pros) the current methods we have for doing that are very, very difficult to execute and punishing if not done so perfectly. | ||
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usethis2
2164 Posts
I don't think Blizzard is adding these new units because mutalisks are overpowered. They want more diversity in strategies and army compositions, and you need something "new" to sell a copy of expansion. I think this is a necessary-evil approach (cause I think Tempest is quite a lame unit from the intro so far) as long as they can keep things balanced. | ||
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
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JoeAWESOME
Sweden1080 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
In the lategame you forge a reponse to them by just using an assortment of units that are ok against Muta but not great. When things got to base trading time it got REALLY confusing and became pretty difficult. If it weren't for the Viper I don't think Blizzard would have added the Tempest, or rather wouldn't feel it was necessary to will that void. The new Cloud that limits range to 1 will make fighting Mutalisks really hard for Protoss, without the Tempest I think Muta lategame would just become too much. Also this was probably something they wanted to do as a design choice. Every unit should have something that is an obvious response. For Muta vs Protoss, especially in the late game that becomes difficult. Not saying that there isn't a response, but it is really never clear how many Archons/Templars and/or Stalkers you will need at a given time--if you have too much or too few of one of those things it usually ends up being an instant loss in the lategame. With the Tempest it will become clear what you will need to get to deal with them, especially now that Zergs will get the Viper | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
go mutalisk, make one mistake and lose 25%-50% (or more) of your mutas and its gg. the point of mutalisk is to prevent the other player from simply pushing right at you while you tech up with upgrades and get the creep spread necessary to keep him from simply rolling over you with marine/tank or whatever the brotoss unit composition of the week is at the moment or a big roach push. if you fail to stay on the offensive with your mutalisks almost 100% of the time for any reason, or lose a significant amount of them harassing, and you're against a good player, your choice of mutalisks turns from one of the best strategic choices zerg can make into gg, you lose. they are not overpowered. theyre fast glass cannons that aren't even cannons unless you micro properly so you can use them for burst DPS. players are just terrified of them because reacting to mutalisk play properly requires very quick decisions and they need to be the right ones. when the mutalisks come out zerg has a potential to get very far ahead but also get very far behind and which one happens is all dependent on the skill of the two opposing players. | ||
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
On October 26 2011 04:29 Honeybadger wrote: The problem with the mutalisk is its splash, IMO. They just grow in effectiveness exponentially and create the same problem they had in vanilla SC: if you left your base to attack, they would wreck your base and economy, and be back in time to defend. We need these units because of the fundamental design of the mutalisk. It's an incredible harasser in smallish flocks, but when the numbers break 15-20, there just isn't an answer for that much splash. All you need to do is defend pushes while your mutalisk horde flies around at warp speed kapwning anything that doesn't have a thor, 6 marines and six upgraded turrets around it, because we can't mass repair once the numbers get that high, the SCV's just melt off. The other problem for the terran is that a marine ball just isn't enough vs high muta numbers. It also requires tons of micro and careful building planning due to the short range. Our defenses against mutalisks have to be razor-thin, and unless you're one of the best players out there, it's just not reasonable to punish the player who has the -DEFENDER'S ADVANTAGE- by making him micro a hundred times more than the player who has the easily microed warpspeed mini deathball. In closing, mutalisks are not overpowered. But their design dictates the creation of units that discourage players from just making 40 of them and winning the game. And in everything except the pro level (and even against some pros) the current methods we have for doing that are very, very difficult to execute and punishing if not done so perfectly. Well in bw, corsairs had splash so it worked. Not to mention that storm was bigger and stronger, and if an archon even hit a ball of mutas once, the entire ball's health was severely reduced. It's worse in SC2 imo. Terran also had irradiate and valkaries. | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
If Zerg gets a slight lead, they can switch to mutas to get an even bigger lead and it can sometimes snowball. Also if the Zerg hides spire and Protoss goes robo in the mid game, then suddenly mutas are really hard to handle and Zerg can just keep expanding and massing mutas. At worst a base race happens and muta/ling wins that easily. | ||
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BushidoSnipr
United States910 Posts
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
On October 26 2011 04:34 DeepElemBlues wrote: mutalisks definitely are not overpowered go mutalisk, make one mistake and lose 25%-50% (or more) of your mutas and its gg. the point of mutalisk is to prevent the other player from simply pushing right at you while you tech up with upgrades and get the creep spread necessary to keep him from simply rolling over you with marine/tank or whatever the brotoss unit composition of the week is at the moment or a big roach push. if you fail to stay on the offensive with your mutalisks almost 100% of the time for any reason, or lose a significant amount of them harassing, and you're against a good player, your choice of mutalisks turns from one of the best strategic choices zerg can make into gg, you lose. they are not overpowered. theyre fast glass cannons that aren't even cannons unless you micro properly so you can use them for burst DPS. players are just terrified of them because reacting to mutalisk play properly requires very quick decisions and they need to be the right ones. when the mutalisks come out zerg has a potential to get very far ahead but also get very far behind and which one happens is all dependent on the skill of the two opposing players. Well what are those decisions? What should protoss do when this happens? I'm seriously asking because I need help vs them. | ||
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