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On October 26 2011 02:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 02:01 pzea469 wrote:
I believe mutas are too strong when massed vs protoss, but not so much vs terran. Terran, even with slow and big thors, can handle mutas fairly well. A thor or two at your base with well placed turrets and scvs that can repair either of those. I'm always shocked at how mass mutas are hitting one turret, but scvs are repairing it so the mutas can't take it down.
vs protoss though, i feel like though it may seem we have tools vs them, we actually don't. Storm is very good vs them, but only if they engage your army directly, which they won't. Same with archons. Pheonix are good if you make some early, but when zerg masses a decent number, which most zergs will if they're going mutas, then pheonix just get straight up beaten by muta splash. Same with cannons, useful in the beginning, useless a little later. The most effective thing vs them is blink stalkers and a few cannons, but that means a good number of blink stalkers, and that means your army is never going anywhere unless you want to base trade. Pros might not have a problem with this, maybe because they prevent it from ever getting to that point or something. But once that point is reached, it becomes pretty difficult.
Maybe I'm being biased or just plain wrong. Let me know. yeah like 30battlecruisers with yamato canons are pretty imba vs Z and P, don't you think so too? It just doesn't happen in a reasonable game!
Dude, that's not even a fair comparison. Zerg makes his first batch of mutas and attacks protoss. Protoss defends after losing a few probes. Protoss builds cannons at his main and natural and starts to research blink. Mutas come back in higher numbers. If they can take out the cannons at your main or nat, they'll do that. If not, then they'll take out any pylons around your base. Stalkers get to them, mutas fly away. Now mutas come back. Everytime they come back, they're stronger. It doesn't matter if you make a ton of stalkers unless you catch the mutas, but a good zerg wont let you. Point being, your stuck defending your base, and you can't leave unless you're willing to base trade. It's not like I let zerg mass mutas to a high amount and for no reason punish him. Zerg harrasses with the mutas as he masses them. Maybe it's not OP, but to suggest it's easy to deal with is ridiculous.
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On October 26 2011 02:14 0neder wrote:
You don't get it, and neither does Blizzard.
Players SHOULD have trouble with racial matchups. There SHOULD be unresolved tension points that stretch skill to the brink. That's what makes games exciting.
Yeah but it shouldn't revolve around one unit, there should be different strategies that revolve around who has the better multitasking and micro
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On October 26 2011 02:28 NEOtheONE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 18:26 Arvd wrote:
I think you are underplaying the strengths of a mutalisk in ZvP. Stalkers are the protoss equivalent of a marine vs mutalisks. However the main problem is is that we cannot produce stalkers as fast as terran make marines and there is also the fact that marines are significantly less costly than stalkers. Stalkers are also easily cleaned up by large amounts of mutas.
The other option for protoss is Pheonixes.This is not viable because by the time we start pheonix production zerg will have 8-10 mutas. There is also the fact that pheonixes seem to be made to clump up and Mutalisks have bounce. You may know that 1 pheonix can kill infinite mutalisks but I think that no one can micro well enough in a 1 pheonix vs 20 muta scenario even ignoring the fact that they need to warp in and macro. However if you scout the mutas early and opend Stargate you can use pheonixes with chrono.
We can also build canons however this is not as effective as turrets as we cannot repair them. This means you just clean up the 2-3 canons and then you have got free reign until the stalkers come.
Archons are also not too good as they require to be very close to the mutas. They have three range. All the muta player has to do is fly away when they see an archon.
This leaves the HT. It is very hard to storm a unit as fast as the mutas and you need to be constantly aware of the threat. It is also hard to storm flying units even with flyer help.
This leaves protoss with either having to all-in push when we see mutas. Defend and max out and a-move, Get to the Mothership and archon toilet the mutas. As you can see they are not particularly good options :D
Not very sure about ZvT though What are you talking about phoenixes not being viable? Remember it takes significantly longer for Zerg to get Lair (80s) and then Spire (100s) than it does for Protoss to get cyber core (50s) and Stargate (60s). Most of the time Zerg doesn't rush to Lair vs Protoss, which gives the Protoss even more time. You have 70 seconds that's 2 phoenixes without chrono boost before the Zerg can even start making mutas.
Um, that's assuming you blindly go stargate-phoenix which often doesn't do enough damage unless you're MC, and a zerg can make as many mutas at one time as he has the resources for. Also just lol at all the raging zergs in this thread, mutas are extremely good vP and happen all the time in high level ZvP in Korea.
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On October 26 2011 02:14 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 02:06 K3Nyy wrote:On October 26 2011 01:59 Big J wrote:On October 26 2011 01:48 Amui wrote:
The strong part about muta's ZvP is the fact that without blink tech, protoss can't even think about taking a 3rd. Protoss actually just gets stuck on 2bases. Until storm comes out and 1-2 templar with enough energy to storm is at each base with cannon support, the army can't move out without a basetrade being forced, which protoss won't win.
I think mutalisks against protoss are just too strong as a snowball unit. If Protoss can keep muta numbers to 10 or less, then they are completely manageable. But if muta's hit about 15, then they become this ball of death that doesn't seem to shrink. If there was a way for protoss to hit 3 bases safely against mutalisks without needing storm, then I think it'd be fine because 3 base protoss can handle mutalisks because there's enough gas for stalkers and templar. It's just that lings and mutalisks are so much faster than the stalker sentry zealot ball for defending a concentrated attack. Bla bla bla bla... Phoenix is a hardcounter to mutas and has a lot of harassment utility as well and is easy to mass... Protoss players just tend to always hit the "I want a cheesy unit to get a free win"-button when they see a stargate... If you fear mutas go standard FFE into stargate and build like 3-4 phoenixes. If you see a spire you add another 2-3 phoenixes before the spire finishes. If he goes for mutas in this situation he is dead. If he doesn't he invested 250/200 into nothing... It's really not that hard, all you don't even need 1a with phoenixes! Going SG in response to mutas is probably the dumbest thing you can do. You'll never get enough Phoenixes to counter the mutas and when he sees it he'll just add Corrupters to his army. Phoenix is a harassment tool but it also gives the Zerg so much time to drone that all that harassment is more than voided. And Phoenix are easy to mass? What? Are you in plat league or something? Phoenix are easy to mass... They take 35sec, without chronoboost. You get 4 nonchronoboosted phoenix out of 1starport until the first round of mutalisks pop. That's more than enough to counter any amount of initial mutalisks. But I guess you always hit the void ray button, because it is so tempting to build void rays when it just gives you so many free wins...
Lol seriously? Pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about or maybe you're just really low level. There's a reason why every Zerg went Mutas back then, they just stopped because of the popularity of timing pushes. Seriously, some people can be so biased.
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Really I think it comes down to the muta not being over powered and just that the built in counters for the muta being ineffective due to how the game is being played out. so they are making units that are harder to abuse with mutas. though I gotta say I dont really go muta against toss and i dont see many pros do it. But then again there are very few toss in code s that i can watch so that may be why i dont see it
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On October 26 2011 02:33 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 02:28 NEOtheONE wrote:On October 25 2011 18:26 Arvd wrote:
I think you are underplaying the strengths of a mutalisk in ZvP. Stalkers are the protoss equivalent of a marine vs mutalisks. However the main problem is is that we cannot produce stalkers as fast as terran make marines and there is also the fact that marines are significantly less costly than stalkers. Stalkers are also easily cleaned up by large amounts of mutas.
The other option for protoss is Pheonixes.This is not viable because by the time we start pheonix production zerg will have 8-10 mutas. There is also the fact that pheonixes seem to be made to clump up and Mutalisks have bounce. You may know that 1 pheonix can kill infinite mutalisks but I think that no one can micro well enough in a 1 pheonix vs 20 muta scenario even ignoring the fact that they need to warp in and macro. However if you scout the mutas early and opend Stargate you can use pheonixes with chrono.
We can also build canons however this is not as effective as turrets as we cannot repair them. This means you just clean up the 2-3 canons and then you have got free reign until the stalkers come.
Archons are also not too good as they require to be very close to the mutas. They have three range. All the muta player has to do is fly away when they see an archon.
This leaves the HT. It is very hard to storm a unit as fast as the mutas and you need to be constantly aware of the threat. It is also hard to storm flying units even with flyer help.
This leaves protoss with either having to all-in push when we see mutas. Defend and max out and a-move, Get to the Mothership and archon toilet the mutas. As you can see they are not particularly good options :D
Not very sure about ZvT though What are you talking about phoenixes not being viable? Remember it takes significantly longer for Zerg to get Lair (80s) and then Spire (100s) than it does for Protoss to get cyber core (50s) and Stargate (60s). Most of the time Zerg doesn't rush to Lair vs Protoss, which gives the Protoss even more time. You have 70 seconds that's 2 phoenixes without chrono boost before the Zerg can even start making mutas. Um, that's assuming you blindly go stargate-phoenix which often doesn't do enough damage unless you're MC, and a zerg can make as many mutas at one time as he has the resources for. Also just lol at all the raging zergs in this thread, mutas are extremely good vP and happen all the time in high level ZvP in Korea.
Going Stargate phoenix is not about doing damage it's about forcing the Zerg to make Hydras and static defense. You then go colossi + deathball, which forces the zerg to make corruptors instead of mutas. It's about controlling the Zerg's tech.
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On October 26 2011 02:28 ShamTao wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 02:14 Big J wrote:On October 26 2011 02:06 K3Nyy wrote:On October 26 2011 01:59 Big J wrote:On October 26 2011 01:48 Amui wrote:
The strong part about muta's ZvP is the fact that without blink tech, protoss can't even think about taking a 3rd. Protoss actually just gets stuck on 2bases. Until storm comes out and 1-2 templar with enough energy to storm is at each base with cannon support, the army can't move out without a basetrade being forced, which protoss won't win.
I think mutalisks against protoss are just too strong as a snowball unit. If Protoss can keep muta numbers to 10 or less, then they are completely manageable. But if muta's hit about 15, then they become this ball of death that doesn't seem to shrink. If there was a way for protoss to hit 3 bases safely against mutalisks without needing storm, then I think it'd be fine because 3 base protoss can handle mutalisks because there's enough gas for stalkers and templar. It's just that lings and mutalisks are so much faster than the stalker sentry zealot ball for defending a concentrated attack. Bla bla bla bla... Phoenix is a hardcounter to mutas and has a lot of harassment utility as well and is easy to mass... Protoss players just tend to always hit the "I want a cheesy unit to get a free win"-button when they see a stargate... If you fear mutas go standard FFE into stargate and build like 3-4 phoenixes. If you see a spire you add another 2-3 phoenixes before the spire finishes. If he goes for mutas in this situation he is dead. If he doesn't he invested 250/200 into nothing... It's really not that hard, all you don't even need 1a with phoenixes! Going SG in response to mutas is probably the dumbest thing you can do. You'll never get enough Phoenixes to counter the mutas and when he sees it he'll just add Corrupters to his army. Phoenix is a harassment tool but it also gives the Zerg so much time to drone that all that harassment is more than voided. And Phoenix are easy to mass? What? Are you in plat league or something? Phoenix are easy to mass... They take 35sec, without chronoboost. You get 4 nonchronoboosted phoenix out of 1starport until the first round of mutalisks pop. That's more than enough to counter any amount of initial mutalisks. But I guess you always hit the void ray button, because it is so tempting to build void rays when it just gives you so many free wins... Phoenix are also pretty expensive, and a Protoss has to conserve gas wherever possible, especially if they've lost sentries early.
yeah and mutalisks are for free or what? The +50minerals for a phoenix... That's just lol.
And as if Protoss was the only race that needs gas.
And if you play a sentry based build and lose sentries early, you where either outplayed or your strategy just sucks. Hell... People talk about mutalisks PvZ like back in the day when muta/ling was popular. And guess how Protoss at that time countered it? Double Stargate!
I played once against HasuObs at that time. I went ling/muta, he scouted it, threw down double stargate and roflstomped me with phoenix. Not saying that he isn't clearly way better than me, but still pros considered it viable, before they found out that muta/ling isn't playable to begin with...
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The problem isn't that any number of mutalisk is OP. Its that when the Zerg just goes mutas for the whole game and ends up with 30-40 of them. There really isn't anything that be done to that many mutalisks and I think Blizzard is trying to address that. Thors are useless against all but the smallest packs of muta's. Having one in your army is good to stop them from poking at your tanks for free, but thats about it. Protoss really only has storm against mass muta and that is easily dodged if you are microing.
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On October 26 2011 02:49 Virtue wrote:
The problem isn't that any number of mutalisk is OP. Its that when the Zerg just goes mutas for the whole game and ends up with 30-40 of them. There really isn't anything that be done to that many mutalisks and I think Blizzard is trying to address that. Thors are useless against all but the smallest packs of muta's. Having one in your army is good to stop them from poking at your tanks for free, but thats about it. Protoss really only has storm against mass muta and that is easily dodged if you are microing.
Nothing can be done? Really? Did you try to drop(terran) or warp prism(toss) the zerg while his mutas are attacking your base?
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On October 25 2011 18:22 Brotocol wrote:
* They justified it in TvZ as magic box being too much for Thors to handle. I don't agree with that assessment. Thor + marine micro is enough imho.
* Protoss "doesn't really need any more units" so they're giving P players something to fill the strange scenario of "40-50 mutalisks." I don't agree with their reasoning either.
I'm primarily a P player nowadays, and I think muta is perfectly dangerous right now without being OP.
Gotta agree with this.
I play random (practicing a lot of terran as of late) and mutalisks definitely don't strike me as overpowered. Obviously they're a very strong harassment tool but they have very poor cost efficiency in head to head battles.
However, I do see how, in PvZ, they could present a problem. The tempest really isn't the answer tho and I'd rather see them increase the Anti-Air damage of the photon cannon or something like then.
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On October 26 2011 02:35 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 02:14 Big J wrote:On October 26 2011 02:06 K3Nyy wrote:On October 26 2011 01:59 Big J wrote:On October 26 2011 01:48 Amui wrote:
The strong part about muta's ZvP is the fact that without blink tech, protoss can't even think about taking a 3rd. Protoss actually just gets stuck on 2bases. Until storm comes out and 1-2 templar with enough energy to storm is at each base with cannon support, the army can't move out without a basetrade being forced, which protoss won't win.
I think mutalisks against protoss are just too strong as a snowball unit. If Protoss can keep muta numbers to 10 or less, then they are completely manageable. But if muta's hit about 15, then they become this ball of death that doesn't seem to shrink. If there was a way for protoss to hit 3 bases safely against mutalisks without needing storm, then I think it'd be fine because 3 base protoss can handle mutalisks because there's enough gas for stalkers and templar. It's just that lings and mutalisks are so much faster than the stalker sentry zealot ball for defending a concentrated attack. Bla bla bla bla... Phoenix is a hardcounter to mutas and has a lot of harassment utility as well and is easy to mass... Protoss players just tend to always hit the "I want a cheesy unit to get a free win"-button when they see a stargate... If you fear mutas go standard FFE into stargate and build like 3-4 phoenixes. If you see a spire you add another 2-3 phoenixes before the spire finishes. If he goes for mutas in this situation he is dead. If he doesn't he invested 250/200 into nothing... It's really not that hard, all you don't even need 1a with phoenixes! Going SG in response to mutas is probably the dumbest thing you can do. You'll never get enough Phoenixes to counter the mutas and when he sees it he'll just add Corrupters to his army. Phoenix is a harassment tool but it also gives the Zerg so much time to drone that all that harassment is more than voided. And Phoenix are easy to mass? What? Are you in plat league or something? Phoenix are easy to mass... They take 35sec, without chronoboost. You get 4 nonchronoboosted phoenix out of 1starport until the first round of mutalisks pop. That's more than enough to counter any amount of initial mutalisks. But I guess you always hit the void ray button, because it is so tempting to build void rays when it just gives you so many free wins... Lol seriously? Pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about or maybe you're just really low level. There's a reason why every Zerg went Mutas back then, they just stopped because of the popularity of timing pushes. Seriously, some people can be so biased.
you mean at the times when Protoss went 4gate-->expand and lose later on to mutalisks? The age of mutalisks ended with 3gate sentry expand and 6gate. Everything before that (and even 3gate sentry expand to some extend) where just bullshit builds.
But let's just get a little overview of Protoss 2base openings and how they deal with mutalisk play:
Rushes:
6gate - Hits before mutalisks, kills a zerg that tries to stockpile some money for mutalisks and builds a spire
7gate,+1 - Hits before mutalisks, kills a zerg that tries to stockpile some money for mutalisks and builds a spire
7gate,blink,+2 - LOL, how much harder do you want to counter mutalisks?
DT rush (mass dt trying to snipe a base)- yeah, if zerg holds without losses, he is free to do whatever he wants. Including mutalisks.
double stargate - anything but hydras loses against a proper done 2SG, no way can a zerg go Mutalisk against that, especially not of 3base
Macro openings:
1stargate - Scout the spire, add some phoenix to be safe against the initial mutalisks and expand. Possible to add more phoenixes and stargates or to go standard gateway and blink heavy. Just 1-2 extra canons per mineral line to get enough time to bring in phoenixes, just like terran does with turrets and marines and P is more than fine.
dt control "dts to get some harass and mapcontrol" - mutalisks are actually quite good against this, but blink is only one research away and the typical follow up
4-5gateways - that's enough to kill any zerg that goes mutalisks early without. Ofc might result in a basetrade, but with mutalisk numbers <10 that means just 2warp ins or some canons and P is fine. If Zerg stays 2base with a lot of spines, just proceed to get blink and expand... Zerg will just be way behind.
Conclusion: If zerg goes early mutalisks he is usually dead. If he gets them late, you should ask yourself where you really lost the game, because there is no way to get a huge flock of mutalisks, without killing of a Protoss army AND being ahead in the income and in bases.
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You don't understand.
PROTOSS METAGAME:
GET A DEATHBALL.
Mutalisk harass the fuck out of all that... when you are grouped in a deathball somewhere off base.
TEMPEST DEFEND.
WIN.
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If you think about the tempest, mutalisks can easily counter it with some nice magic box; countering tempests as mutas will be the same as countering thors with mutas. Just avoid the splash damage.
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I agree with the sentiment that mutalisks aren't OP. I think the problem lies with the fact that mutalisks are just a really, really strong snowball unit against protoss that doesn't have storm+templar to use it. If protoss can get a couple templar up with storm available, the muta ball is suddenly a lot less scary.
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if you are not an idiot and care for your mutas, approaching the mid-late game you get a very large group of mutas, which will take out a very large amount of defense unless you keep your army in your base which allows you to take the map. The point of the new units is to allow keeping 4-5 units back and using the rest of your army to stay mobile and take expansions or put pressure. As it is now the terran can either attempt a base trade or try and run between bases when 30 mutas come crashing through your base no matter how many missile turrets you have. And as for protoss in the extreme late game, if they are massing ground units and you are going for a heavier zealot/colossus mix to deal with ling infestor or hydras or whatever the comp may be, and all of a sudden there is a huge 20 muta tech switch, there is almost literally no answer without losing all of the economy in the process. I understand tech switches are meant to be effective but when it comes to zerg compared to terran or protoss, it takes time to get a large amount of a type of units due to race design. When you have resources pooling and 40 larva sitting around, it becomes difficult to guess what is coming next after trading armies. If you assume mutas and make mass stalkers and tempests and its not, you can be in a very scary position. All zerg say they don't want a coin flip, and these units negate those kind of decisions by only needed a few to be safe against a tech switch to something that almost literally has no counter other than one or two units.
Evidence to going mech with only 1-2 Thors, magic box is still effective but if it was the same build pattern as protoss you could scan and see them being built instead of all of a sudden 20-30 mutas appearing and you being caught with your pants down.
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@NeotheOne and if you do have 2-3 phoenixs and he *doesn't* go spire, just punish him by picking up queens and drones with the phoenixs. They will pay for themselves. Grabbing a few roaches with all of your phoenixes can change an engagement too, since if 5 roachs are out of a ball, that is a significant amount of damage that the stalkers are not taking.
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I think in zvt the muta isn't really overpowered, but there is only really one counter - marines. If the other player goes mass mutas, ghosts/thors aren't going to be able to counter well. It kind of made the late game stuck for zvt because you were constantly having to build marines and we didn't see much switching till later with the whole ghost deal
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On October 26 2011 03:15 ZenZombie wrote:
@NeotheOne and if you do have 2-3 phoenixs and he *doesn't* go spire, just punish him by picking up queens and drones with the phoenixs. They will pay for themselves. Grabbing a few roaches with all of your phoenixes can change an engagement too, since if 5 roachs are out of a ball, that is a significant amount of damage that the stalkers are not taking.
You can either make 1 phoenix for scouting, or you make 4-6 because 2-3 is a number that just doesn't really get anything done. 2 can't kill queens, 3 takes 2 lifts to kill a queen. 3 phoenix can't even 1 shot a drone some of the time due to regeneration. FYI, you can only lift as many units as you have phoenix. 2-3 phoenix don't magically lift 5 roaches.
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WOOOOOOOOOOW terran is gonna be soooo screwed vs zerg lategame
i cant think of a way to beat the whole migthy zerg composition
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EPT
