I believe mutalisks are too strong. On large maps, they give zerg too much of an advantage in mobility and mutalisks will enable zerg to win in most base races despite having weaker armies. Forgot to build an army? no problem, just base race, build hatcheries and pick off the protoss one by one. Blink stalkers need to shoot a mutalisk 12 times to kill it, and at 1.5 attack speed. it takes a single stalker 18 seconds to kill a mutalisk which gives mutalisks plenty of time to just fly away from stalkers without punishment. The archon while it is good at face to face combat, the mutalisk is just too fast and can just fly away with no punishment and kill the protoss somewhere else while the protoss is struggling to be able to fend off this "harass." Due to zerg's tech switching capabilities I don't think making multiple stargates for phoenixes is a viable option unless it is extremely late game and brood lords are coming out.
I think terran suffers from this too. Thors are much too slow and are only good for controlling some space and thors barely beat mutalisks for cost. Considering the only thing thors are good for is mutalisks. Barely beating them for cost i think makes them very undesirable. Turrets are garbage once a critical mass is achieved and zerg can most often indefinitely pin a terran into his base with mutalisks unless the terran goes for a really good timing attack. Mutalisks will beat any terran army that has few marines and being forced to go marines, especially because of banelings and how hard it is to split, sucks.
On October 26 2011 01:29 Go1den wrote: They are far too effective at killing probe lines, stalkers, cannons, pylons, etc. For what it's worth Protoss doesn't have an "effective" counter to mutalisks. Protoss can counter small numbers of mutas with phoenixes, or with blink stalkers, but often times the mutalisk ball can grow to 10-15 mutas while the Protoss player is still on two bases, and it is unrealistic to assume that any Protoss goes for templar tech before taking his third, so HT/archon aren't really an effective counter either. When mutalisks really become a problem is when they kill faster than the Protoss can warp in units to deal with it. As a realistic nerf, I would think mutalisks could use a minor speed decrease and a damage decrease - they are already hands down the most effective form of contain and harass in the game.
You can't nerf mutas, because they are too fragile unit. It's like nerfing marine or zergling - just a single nerf/buff gonna completelly change unit.
Also good protoss players always knows how to deal with mutas, I rarelly see pros die to mutas, and even if they die it's always their mistake.
On October 25 2011 18:16 GhostFall wrote: Watching the Multiplayer Panel from Blizzcon, I got confused by some of the unit decisions that Blizzard are introducing into HOTS.
Specifically, the Warhound and the Tempest.
The multiplayer panel goes on to explain they felt that the thor was not a good enough counter to the mutalisk, because it was big, bulky and expensive. Furthermore, the tempest was described because Protoss players apparently had trouble with big muta switches in PvZ.
Personally, and I believe my opinion is shared by most of the community, Mutalisks are not overpowered. They're an effective harassment tool, that are dealt with a variety of units from each race. While I agree that the Thor may not be performing up to their standards for anti-mutalisk, the Terran race as a whole, does not seem to have a Mutalisk problem. Likewise, Protoss as a whole also do not have a problem with mass mutas. They have archons, high templar, blink, and phoenixes to help deal with Mutalisks. And all races have the option of applying pressure to the opponent. Regardless of what problems exist in the matchups, I really do not think the mutalisk is the cause of any of those problems.
Which brings me to my point. For the Warhound, why do the Terran need another unit to help with Mutalisks? They handle mutalisks extremely well because of the Marine. You're effectively nerfing Mutalisk harassment, which is something that doesn't really need nerfing in the TvZ matchup. Yes, they are removing the thor, but the warhound is being introduced specifically to be better than the Thor against mutalisks.
My second point regarding the Tempest, is that the unit fulfills no niche. Do Protoss have a hard time with mass mutas? Are archons, high templar, blink, and phoenixes really not enough? Is mass mutalisk such a common strategy that it requires the removal of the carrier and the addition of an all new capital ship? If the niche that the tempest provides is mass AOE-anti air, I really do not see it being built much because as it is now, there are many options to handle mass mutalisks. The only air unit thats being added is the Viper, which is more of a support unit, then an offensive one like the mutalisk.
For those saying, we don't know what HOTS will be like, I agree, but none of the new units and changes revealed so far show any indication of changing the mutalisk dynamic except these 2 units in the 2 matchups.
Am I wrong? Is there something I'm missing? I'm just wondering, what would make Blizzard feel that the problem with the TvZ and PvZ is the mutalisk? I remember in the transition from Starcraft to Starcraft: Brood War, mutalisks were overpowered in Starcraft 1. The addition of the corsair, the valkyrie, and goliath range where to fight against mutalisks, a known problem. In this transition from WOL -> HOTS, the changes they are making do not seem to be solving a problem, but just changing the current status quo.
Edit - It could also be that Blizzard just doesn't want mutalisk harass to be as effective, intentionally changing the flow of the TvZ and PvZ matchups, but aren't mutalisks one of the most spectator friendly units out there?
well i speak for terran The only point i want to bring up is that, yes maybe the marines are okay enough to deal with them, But that is in Wings Of Liberty! In Heart of the Swarm, marines could be totally useless outside of defending mutalisk harass ( the new viper cloud/baneling combo/ultralisk burrow blinks etc will have something to say about marines) . So what im basically trying to point out is that you are presuming marines will be useful threwout the game in heart of the swarm, when the case might be the opposite, where marines might only be good early game and mech needs to be transitioned into
No they aren't op at all. Blizzards new units just make no sense. Having mutas as an option for harass is good for the game, I don't know why they want to make it harder to do. It seems like they are "fixing" a lot of problems that shouldn't be "fixed".
Zerg are getting units to easily break siege lines at lair tech .... wtf? Terran get units to prevent all kinds of harass (muta and ling runbyes). Protoss just got a bunch of weird shit that doesn't make sense. Imo each race needs to have some weaknesses.
I really don't see how the tempest counters mutalisks when it is likely going to be slower than mutalisks. Once mutas get sufficiently high will it really be any more effective than HT at defending bases? I doubt it.
To me, depending on how much damage the tempest does it may be a very late game unit to compliment colossi to deal with the mass vikings/corruptors.
Mutas are really strong vs Toss if he can't allin you. A competent Zerg will keep expanding and tech towards hive while harassing and force the Protoss at 2-3 bases. You actually don't have to do much damage to the Protoss directly, just keep denying his bases and force his army to defend at home. Eventually you'll just outmacro him.
the point with mutas in pvz is that you can never leave your base until you want to basetrade and who wants to base race vs mutas? as a conclusion zerg can build a million spinecrowler to protect his bases, expand everywhere, get a huge amount of mutalisk and a lot of overmins/gas for possible tech switches.
The strong part about muta's ZvP is the fact that without blink tech, protoss can't even think about taking a 3rd. Protoss actually just gets stuck on 2bases. Until storm comes out and 1-2 templar with enough energy to storm is at each base with cannon support, the army can't move out without a basetrade being forced, which protoss won't win.
I think mutalisks against protoss are just too strong as a snowball unit. If Protoss can keep muta numbers to 10 or less, then they are completely manageable. But if muta's hit about 15, then they become this ball of death that doesn't seem to shrink. If there was a way for protoss to hit 3 bases safely against mutalisks without needing storm, then I think it'd be fine because 3 base protoss can handle mutalisks because there's enough gas for stalkers and templar. It's just that lings and mutalisks are so much faster than the stalker sentry zealot ball for defending a concentrated attack.
so uhh.... tempest doesn't have the same build time as the carrier right? and how fast is it? Do i need to like leave one and some HTs and some stalkers at each base (a la thor) or can i make like 3-4 tempest and zone out the mutas effectively?
Yeah, because Zerg is clearly the problematic race... LOL... Mutalisks are used in exactly one matchup: TvZ Talk about something that is used in more MUs and isn't a basic unit like like Tanks, banshees, void rays, colossus... Silly thread
On October 26 2011 01:54 Big J wrote: Yeah, because Zerg is clearly the problematic race... LOL... Mutalisks are used in exactly one matchup: TvZ Talk about something that is used in more MUs and isn't a basic unit like like Tanks, banshees, void rays, colossus... Silly thread
Mutas are actually used pretty often in ZvP and I've seen some mutas in ZvZ.
On October 26 2011 01:54 Big J wrote: Yeah, because Zerg is clearly the problematic race... LOL... Mutalisks are used in exactly one matchup: TvZ Talk about something that is used in more MUs and isn't a basic unit like like Tanks, banshees, void rays, colossus... Silly thread
Mutas are only used in ZvT? Are you living under a rock?
Mutas are not OP, but they are certainly very annoying to play against as protoss. Very hard to take a third, and once you move out to attack the zerg, they force a basetrade which is pretty stupid.
Blizzard is wrong about the Thor's capability vs Mutalisks. Thor + Marine is extremely powerful vs Muta. Unless the Muta's freakishly outnumber the Thor + Marines, it is not cost effective for the Zerg player at all. As for the Warhound, it should not have AOE AA like the Thor. It would make Marine + Warhound counter Mutalisks way too hard. The Warhound AA should just be a long ranged single target attack similar to the Goliath.
Mutas were considered OP in the early stages of WOL in PvZ, it just fell out of flavor because of some 2 base timing attacks.
Since timing attacks become worse and worse every day because Zerg players finally learned to build units instead of mass droning, the are not the best option for a standard game, which brings us back to Mutas becoming better and better in the current metagame. Also maps are alot bigger know which suits mutas obviously.
On October 26 2011 01:48 Amui wrote: The strong part about muta's ZvP is the fact that without blink tech, protoss can't even think about taking a 3rd. Protoss actually just gets stuck on 2bases. Until storm comes out and 1-2 templar with enough energy to storm is at each base with cannon support, the army can't move out without a basetrade being forced, which protoss won't win.
I think mutalisks against protoss are just too strong as a snowball unit. If Protoss can keep muta numbers to 10 or less, then they are completely manageable. But if muta's hit about 15, then they become this ball of death that doesn't seem to shrink. If there was a way for protoss to hit 3 bases safely against mutalisks without needing storm, then I think it'd be fine because 3 base protoss can handle mutalisks because there's enough gas for stalkers and templar. It's just that lings and mutalisks are so much faster than the stalker sentry zealot ball for defending a concentrated attack.
Bla bla bla bla... Phoenix is a hardcounter to mutas and has a lot of harassment utility as well and is easy to mass... Protoss players just tend to always hit the "I want a cheesy unit to get a free win"-button when they see a stargate... If you fear mutas go standard FFE into stargate and build like 3-4 phoenixes. If you see a spire you add another 2-3 phoenixes before the spire finishes. If he goes for mutas in this situation he is dead. If he doesn't he invested 250/200 into nothing... It's really not that hard, all you don't even need 1a with phoenixes!
I believe mutas are too strong when massed vs protoss, but not so much vs terran. Terran, even with slow and big thors, can handle mutas fairly well. A thor or two at your base with well placed turrets and scvs that can repair either of those. I'm always shocked at how mass mutas are hitting one turret, but scvs are repairing it so the mutas can't take it down.
vs protoss though, i feel like though it may seem we have tools vs them, we actually don't. Storm is very good vs them, but only if they engage your army directly, which they won't. Same with archons. Pheonix are good if you make some early, but when zerg masses a decent number, which most zergs will if they're going mutas, then pheonix just get straight up beaten by muta splash. Same with cannons, useful in the beginning, useless a little later. The most effective thing vs them is blink stalkers and a few cannons, but that means a good number of blink stalkers, and that means your army is never going anywhere unless you want to base trade. Pros might not have a problem with this, maybe because they prevent it from ever getting to that point or something. But once that point is reached, it becomes pretty difficult.
Maybe I'm being biased or just plain wrong. Let me know.
On October 26 2011 01:54 Big J wrote: Yeah, because Zerg is clearly the problematic race... LOL... Mutalisks are used in exactly one matchup: TvZ Talk about something that is used in more MUs and isn't a basic unit like like Tanks, banshees, void rays, colossus... Silly thread
Mutas are only used in ZvT? Are you living under a rock?
Mutas are not OP, but they are certainly very annoying to play against as protoss. Very hard to take a third, and once you move out to attack the zerg, they force a basetrade which is pretty stupid.
Mutas are only used in ZvP to finish the game against Protoss that did an allin and failed... Noone goes straight up mutas and noone goes "oh gosh, he has an army, better get me some of those extremly strong, supercheap combat units called mutalisk..." LOL
And for ZvZ... Yeah they exist in ZvZ. They are OK, but more like phoenixes in PvP... Some cool possible strategies but you won't see them very often.
On October 26 2011 02:01 pzea469 wrote: I believe mutas are too strong when massed vs protoss, but not so much vs terran. Terran, even with slow and big thors, can handle mutas fairly well. A thor or two at your base with well placed turrets and scvs that can repair either of those. I'm always shocked at how mass mutas are hitting one turret, but scvs are repairing it so the mutas can't take it down.
vs protoss though, i feel like though it may seem we have tools vs them, we actually don't. Storm is very good vs them, but only if they engage your army directly, which they won't. Same with archons. Pheonix are good if you make some early, but when zerg masses a decent number, which most zergs will if they're going mutas, then pheonix just get straight up beaten by muta splash. Same with cannons, useful in the beginning, useless a little later. The most effective thing vs them is blink stalkers and a few cannons, but that means a good number of blink stalkers, and that means your army is never going anywhere unless you want to base trade. Pros might not have a problem with this, maybe because they prevent it from ever getting to that point or something. But once that point is reached, it becomes pretty difficult.
Maybe I'm being biased or just plain wrong. Let me know.
yeah like 30battlecruisers with yamato canons are pretty imba vs Z and P, don't you think so too? It just doesn't happen in a reasonable game!
On October 26 2011 01:48 Amui wrote: The strong part about muta's ZvP is the fact that without blink tech, protoss can't even think about taking a 3rd. Protoss actually just gets stuck on 2bases. Until storm comes out and 1-2 templar with enough energy to storm is at each base with cannon support, the army can't move out without a basetrade being forced, which protoss won't win.
I think mutalisks against protoss are just too strong as a snowball unit. If Protoss can keep muta numbers to 10 or less, then they are completely manageable. But if muta's hit about 15, then they become this ball of death that doesn't seem to shrink. If there was a way for protoss to hit 3 bases safely against mutalisks without needing storm, then I think it'd be fine because 3 base protoss can handle mutalisks because there's enough gas for stalkers and templar. It's just that lings and mutalisks are so much faster than the stalker sentry zealot ball for defending a concentrated attack.
Bla bla bla bla... Phoenix is a hardcounter to mutas and has a lot of harassment utility as well and is easy to mass... Protoss players just tend to always hit the "I want a cheesy unit to get a free win"-button when they see a stargate... If you fear mutas go standard FFE into stargate and build like 3-4 phoenixes. If you see a spire you add another 2-3 phoenixes before the spire finishes. If he goes for mutas in this situation he is dead. If he doesn't he invested 250/200 into nothing... It's really not that hard, all you don't even need 1a with phoenixes!
Going SG in response to mutas is probably the dumbest thing you can do. You'll never get enough Phoenixes to counter the mutas and when he sees it he'll just add Corrupters to his army.
Phoenix is a harassment tool but it also gives the Zerg so much time to drone that all that harassment is more than voided. And Phoenix are easy to mass? What? Are you in plat league or something?
Mutas are extremely powerful and I'm seeing them a lot more on ladder recently, instead of 3 base roach, it's 3 base ling defense into mass mutas, with expos behind it. I think the tempest will help with base defense greatly late game.
The issue is that phoenixes actually lose to a large enough ball of mutas, and are extremely vulernable to a fungal, at which point the muta ball will completely destroy the mutas. This leaves storm and blink, which are signifcanlty less mobile than muta balls.
Saying they're overpowered may be a bit unfair though, as in general ZvP last month was 40%, there could likely be some other issues at play.
EPT
