|
On October 26 2011 01:59 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 01:48 Amui wrote:
The strong part about muta's ZvP is the fact that without blink tech, protoss can't even think about taking a 3rd. Protoss actually just gets stuck on 2bases. Until storm comes out and 1-2 templar with enough energy to storm is at each base with cannon support, the army can't move out without a basetrade being forced, which protoss won't win.
I think mutalisks against protoss are just too strong as a snowball unit. If Protoss can keep muta numbers to 10 or less, then they are completely manageable. But if muta's hit about 15, then they become this ball of death that doesn't seem to shrink. If there was a way for protoss to hit 3 bases safely against mutalisks without needing storm, then I think it'd be fine because 3 base protoss can handle mutalisks because there's enough gas for stalkers and templar. It's just that lings and mutalisks are so much faster than the stalker sentry zealot ball for defending a concentrated attack. Bla bla bla bla... Phoenix is a hardcounter to mutas and has a lot of harassment utility as well and is easy to mass... Protoss players just tend to always hit the "I want a cheesy unit to get a free win"-button when they see a stargate... If you fear mutas go standard FFE into stargate and build like 3-4 phoenixes. If you see a spire you add another 2-3 phoenixes before the spire finishes. If he goes for mutas in this situation he is dead. If he doesn't he invested 250/200 into nothing... It's really not that hard, all you don't even need 1a with phoenixes!
Are you suggesting making pheonix before zerg has a spire? What type of zerg would then proceed to make mutas then? And then it's the protoss who invested in nothing, because the harrassment of 3-4 pheonix is completely taken away by a spore crawler and a queen. And if he for some crazy reason still builds a spire, it's to make corrupters to kill your pheonix. And then, if for whatever reason, he has mutas and you got pheonix, if zerg masses mutas and you mass pheonix, then the mutas win. I agree that pheonix are good vs mutas early on, and it's great if you manage to kill them early. The problem is if zerg masses mutas, it's a whole different problem. There is no 1 unit to counter that. The counter is your army, if you manage to catch them somehow. In which case, you are trapped in your base.
|
It's funny how lots of people say "it's awesome if protoss is not aggressive enough early game" or "if protoss doesn't have blink in time"...
Well then get blink in time or be more aggressive. Basically what you are saying is: if protoss player is bad, then mutas are good. Well obviously playing against mutas requires at least some multitasking by the protoss opponent, but that doesn't mean it's OP, just that it requires some skill to handle, just like it does require some multitasking to macro and harrass with the mutas at the same time.
|
Dustin Browder probably lost to Mutas once...
|
On October 26 2011 02:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 02:01 pzea469 wrote:
I believe mutas are too strong when massed vs protoss, but not so much vs terran. Terran, even with slow and big thors, can handle mutas fairly well. A thor or two at your base with well placed turrets and scvs that can repair either of those. I'm always shocked at how mass mutas are hitting one turret, but scvs are repairing it so the mutas can't take it down.
vs protoss though, i feel like though it may seem we have tools vs them, we actually don't. Storm is very good vs them, but only if they engage your army directly, which they won't. Same with archons. Pheonix are good if you make some early, but when zerg masses a decent number, which most zergs will if they're going mutas, then pheonix just get straight up beaten by muta splash. Same with cannons, useful in the beginning, useless a little later. The most effective thing vs them is blink stalkers and a few cannons, but that means a good number of blink stalkers, and that means your army is never going anywhere unless you want to base trade. Pros might not have a problem with this, maybe because they prevent it from ever getting to that point or something. But once that point is reached, it becomes pretty difficult.
Maybe I'm being biased or just plain wrong. Let me know. yeah like 30battlecruisers with yamato canons are pretty imba vs Z and P, don't you think so too? It just doesn't happen in a reasonable game!
Only if corruptors did'nt kill everything in the air.
|
On October 26 2011 02:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 01:58 Linwelin wrote:On October 26 2011 01:54 Big J wrote:
Yeah, because Zerg is clearly the problematic race... LOL... Mutalisks are used in exactly one matchup: TvZ
Talk about something that is used in more MUs and isn't a basic unit like like Tanks, banshees, void rays, colossus... Silly thread Mutas are only used in ZvT? Are you living under a rock? Mutas are not OP, but they are certainly very annoying to play against as protoss. Very hard to take a third, and once you move out to attack the zerg, they force a basetrade which is pretty stupid. Mutas are only used in ZvP to finish the game against Protoss that did an allin and failed... Noone goes straight up mutas and noone goes "oh gosh, he has an army, better get me some of those extremly strong, supercheap combat units called mutalisk..." LOL And for ZvZ... Yeah they exist in ZvZ. They are OK, but more like phoenixes in PvP... Some cool possible strategies but you won't see them very often.
Have you seen NesTea ZvZ? He uses mutas in every ZvZ, and it's becoming a staple in high ZvZ play in korea.
|
On October 26 2011 02:06 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 01:59 Big J wrote:On October 26 2011 01:48 Amui wrote:
The strong part about muta's ZvP is the fact that without blink tech, protoss can't even think about taking a 3rd. Protoss actually just gets stuck on 2bases. Until storm comes out and 1-2 templar with enough energy to storm is at each base with cannon support, the army can't move out without a basetrade being forced, which protoss won't win.
I think mutalisks against protoss are just too strong as a snowball unit. If Protoss can keep muta numbers to 10 or less, then they are completely manageable. But if muta's hit about 15, then they become this ball of death that doesn't seem to shrink. If there was a way for protoss to hit 3 bases safely against mutalisks without needing storm, then I think it'd be fine because 3 base protoss can handle mutalisks because there's enough gas for stalkers and templar. It's just that lings and mutalisks are so much faster than the stalker sentry zealot ball for defending a concentrated attack. Bla bla bla bla... Phoenix is a hardcounter to mutas and has a lot of harassment utility as well and is easy to mass... Protoss players just tend to always hit the "I want a cheesy unit to get a free win"-button when they see a stargate... If you fear mutas go standard FFE into stargate and build like 3-4 phoenixes. If you see a spire you add another 2-3 phoenixes before the spire finishes. If he goes for mutas in this situation he is dead. If he doesn't he invested 250/200 into nothing... It's really not that hard, all you don't even need 1a with phoenixes! Going SG in response to mutas is probably the dumbest thing you can do. You'll never get enough Phoenixes to counter the mutas and when he sees it he'll just add Corrupters to his army. Phoenix is a harassment tool but it also gives the Zerg so much time to drone that all that harassment is more than voided. And Phoenix are easy to mass? What? Are you in plat league or something?
Drop 3 stargates and you going to have enough mutas no problemo. I think elfi was doing same when he scouted mutas.
|
Mutalisk is a unit that, due to the economy of z, once you get certain number, it can get out of control. There is overpowered, but only in the hands of skilled multitaking players.
|
On October 26 2011 02:06 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 01:59 Big J wrote:On October 26 2011 01:48 Amui wrote:
The strong part about muta's ZvP is the fact that without blink tech, protoss can't even think about taking a 3rd. Protoss actually just gets stuck on 2bases. Until storm comes out and 1-2 templar with enough energy to storm is at each base with cannon support, the army can't move out without a basetrade being forced, which protoss won't win.
I think mutalisks against protoss are just too strong as a snowball unit. If Protoss can keep muta numbers to 10 or less, then they are completely manageable. But if muta's hit about 15, then they become this ball of death that doesn't seem to shrink. If there was a way for protoss to hit 3 bases safely against mutalisks without needing storm, then I think it'd be fine because 3 base protoss can handle mutalisks because there's enough gas for stalkers and templar. It's just that lings and mutalisks are so much faster than the stalker sentry zealot ball for defending a concentrated attack. Bla bla bla bla... Phoenix is a hardcounter to mutas and has a lot of harassment utility as well and is easy to mass... Protoss players just tend to always hit the "I want a cheesy unit to get a free win"-button when they see a stargate... If you fear mutas go standard FFE into stargate and build like 3-4 phoenixes. If you see a spire you add another 2-3 phoenixes before the spire finishes. If he goes for mutas in this situation he is dead. If he doesn't he invested 250/200 into nothing... It's really not that hard, all you don't even need 1a with phoenixes! Going SG in response to mutas is probably the dumbest thing you can do. You'll never get enough Phoenixes to counter the mutas and when he sees it he'll just add Corrupters to his army. Phoenix is a harassment tool but it also gives the Zerg so much time to drone that all that harassment is more than voided. And Phoenix are easy to mass? What? Are you in plat league or something?
Phoenix are easy to mass... They take 35sec, without chronoboost. You get 4 nonchronoboosted phoenix out of 1starport until the first round of mutalisks pop. That's more than enough to counter any amount of initial mutalisks. But I guess you always hit the void ray button, because it is so tempting to build void rays when it just gives you so many free wins...
|
On October 26 2011 02:12 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 02:06 K3Nyy wrote:On October 26 2011 01:59 Big J wrote:On October 26 2011 01:48 Amui wrote:
The strong part about muta's ZvP is the fact that without blink tech, protoss can't even think about taking a 3rd. Protoss actually just gets stuck on 2bases. Until storm comes out and 1-2 templar with enough energy to storm is at each base with cannon support, the army can't move out without a basetrade being forced, which protoss won't win.
I think mutalisks against protoss are just too strong as a snowball unit. If Protoss can keep muta numbers to 10 or less, then they are completely manageable. But if muta's hit about 15, then they become this ball of death that doesn't seem to shrink. If there was a way for protoss to hit 3 bases safely against mutalisks without needing storm, then I think it'd be fine because 3 base protoss can handle mutalisks because there's enough gas for stalkers and templar. It's just that lings and mutalisks are so much faster than the stalker sentry zealot ball for defending a concentrated attack. Bla bla bla bla... Phoenix is a hardcounter to mutas and has a lot of harassment utility as well and is easy to mass... Protoss players just tend to always hit the "I want a cheesy unit to get a free win"-button when they see a stargate... If you fear mutas go standard FFE into stargate and build like 3-4 phoenixes. If you see a spire you add another 2-3 phoenixes before the spire finishes. If he goes for mutas in this situation he is dead. If he doesn't he invested 250/200 into nothing... It's really not that hard, all you don't even need 1a with phoenixes! Going SG in response to mutas is probably the dumbest thing you can do. You'll never get enough Phoenixes to counter the mutas and when he sees it he'll just add Corrupters to his army. Phoenix is a harassment tool but it also gives the Zerg so much time to drone that all that harassment is more than voided. And Phoenix are easy to mass? What? Are you in plat league or something? Drop 3 stargates and you going to have enough mutas no problemo. I think elfi was doing same when he scouted mutas.
You just can't do that in most games, at least in high level.
|
You don't get it, and neither does Blizzard.
Players SHOULD have trouble with racial matchups. There SHOULD be unresolved tension points that stretch skill to the brink. That's what makes games exciting.
|
On October 26 2011 02:11 Toppp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 02:03 Big J wrote:On October 26 2011 01:58 Linwelin wrote:On October 26 2011 01:54 Big J wrote:
Yeah, because Zerg is clearly the problematic race... LOL... Mutalisks are used in exactly one matchup: TvZ
Talk about something that is used in more MUs and isn't a basic unit like like Tanks, banshees, void rays, colossus... Silly thread Mutas are only used in ZvT? Are you living under a rock? Mutas are not OP, but they are certainly very annoying to play against as protoss. Very hard to take a third, and once you move out to attack the zerg, they force a basetrade which is pretty stupid. Mutas are only used in ZvP to finish the game against Protoss that did an allin and failed... Noone goes straight up mutas and noone goes "oh gosh, he has an army, better get me some of those extremly strong, supercheap combat units called mutalisk..." LOL And for ZvZ... Yeah they exist in ZvZ. They are OK, but more like phoenixes in PvP... Some cool possible strategies but you won't see them very often. Have you seen NesTea ZvZ? He uses mutas in every ZvZ, and it's becoming a staple in high ZvZ play in korea.
yes I have and no he doesn't... He uses them sometimes. Mutalisks were a staple unit in ZvZ some months ago, right now they aren't. They are used, but nothing more.
|
On October 26 2011 02:14 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 02:12 Alpina wrote:On October 26 2011 02:06 K3Nyy wrote:On October 26 2011 01:59 Big J wrote:On October 26 2011 01:48 Amui wrote:
The strong part about muta's ZvP is the fact that without blink tech, protoss can't even think about taking a 3rd. Protoss actually just gets stuck on 2bases. Until storm comes out and 1-2 templar with enough energy to storm is at each base with cannon support, the army can't move out without a basetrade being forced, which protoss won't win.
I think mutalisks against protoss are just too strong as a snowball unit. If Protoss can keep muta numbers to 10 or less, then they are completely manageable. But if muta's hit about 15, then they become this ball of death that doesn't seem to shrink. If there was a way for protoss to hit 3 bases safely against mutalisks without needing storm, then I think it'd be fine because 3 base protoss can handle mutalisks because there's enough gas for stalkers and templar. It's just that lings and mutalisks are so much faster than the stalker sentry zealot ball for defending a concentrated attack. Bla bla bla bla... Phoenix is a hardcounter to mutas and has a lot of harassment utility as well and is easy to mass... Protoss players just tend to always hit the "I want a cheesy unit to get a free win"-button when they see a stargate... If you fear mutas go standard FFE into stargate and build like 3-4 phoenixes. If you see a spire you add another 2-3 phoenixes before the spire finishes. If he goes for mutas in this situation he is dead. If he doesn't he invested 250/200 into nothing... It's really not that hard, all you don't even need 1a with phoenixes! Going SG in response to mutas is probably the dumbest thing you can do. You'll never get enough Phoenixes to counter the mutas and when he sees it he'll just add Corrupters to his army. Phoenix is a harassment tool but it also gives the Zerg so much time to drone that all that harassment is more than voided. And Phoenix are easy to mass? What? Are you in plat league or something? Drop 3 stargates and you going to have enough mutas no problemo. I think elfi was doing same when he scouted mutas. You just can't do that in most games, at least in high level.
elfi plays at high level and why can't you do that? I mean zerg can invest into spire 250/200 and let's say 800/800 into first mutas, and toss can't invest into stargates?
|
Void ray with phoenix support will take care of most muta balls, except huge ones, but that strategy is so costly that a zerg player iwll be behind in other ways, and can be rolled by a death ball. Spire should have been scouted and when first bit of mutas came out a second facility for observers could come out for early detection, since no one does mutas + overseer since mutas are not at risk from any protoss cloaked units. Mothership could be good for dealing with mutas since vortex + mass recall can wreck a muta base trade when the army is mainly stalkers.
I play bit of zerg, and using mutas can be a dangerous gambit since a large group of stalkers is almost invincible with blink micro. They are early harass at best, and if people are dying to mass muta as protoss, I feel like there is somewhere earlier in the game where the protoss player should have punished the zerg player for going in that direction, such as denying expansion with stalkers or DTs, etc.
|
On October 26 2011 02:17 ZenZombie wrote:
Void ray with phoenix support will take care of most muta balls, except huge ones, but that strategy is so costly that a zerg player iwll be behind in other ways, and can be rolled by a death ball. Spire should have been scouted and when first bit of mutas came out a second facility for observers could come out for early detection, since no one does mutas + overseer since mutas are not at risk from any protoss cloaked units. Mothership could be good for dealing with mutas since vortex + mass recall can wreck a muta base trade when the army is mainly stalkers.
I play bit of zerg, and using mutas can be a dangerous gambit since a large group of stalkers is almost invincible with blink micro. They are early harass at best, and if people are dying to mass muta as protoss, I feel like there is somewhere earlier in the game where the protoss player should have punished the zerg player for going in that direction, such as denying expansion with stalkers or DTs, etc.
you are the next one... Void rays dont do shit against Mutalisks. Get pure phoenix or you deserve to die vs Mutalisks. As if Zergs had the choice to skip on any unit, even if it is as bad as hydralisks...
|
On October 26 2011 02:12 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 02:06 K3Nyy wrote:On October 26 2011 01:59 Big J wrote:On October 26 2011 01:48 Amui wrote:
The strong part about muta's ZvP is the fact that without blink tech, protoss can't even think about taking a 3rd. Protoss actually just gets stuck on 2bases. Until storm comes out and 1-2 templar with enough energy to storm is at each base with cannon support, the army can't move out without a basetrade being forced, which protoss won't win.
I think mutalisks against protoss are just too strong as a snowball unit. If Protoss can keep muta numbers to 10 or less, then they are completely manageable. But if muta's hit about 15, then they become this ball of death that doesn't seem to shrink. If there was a way for protoss to hit 3 bases safely against mutalisks without needing storm, then I think it'd be fine because 3 base protoss can handle mutalisks because there's enough gas for stalkers and templar. It's just that lings and mutalisks are so much faster than the stalker sentry zealot ball for defending a concentrated attack. Bla bla bla bla... Phoenix is a hardcounter to mutas and has a lot of harassment utility as well and is easy to mass... Protoss players just tend to always hit the "I want a cheesy unit to get a free win"-button when they see a stargate... If you fear mutas go standard FFE into stargate and build like 3-4 phoenixes. If you see a spire you add another 2-3 phoenixes before the spire finishes. If he goes for mutas in this situation he is dead. If he doesn't he invested 250/200 into nothing... It's really not that hard, all you don't even need 1a with phoenixes! Going SG in response to mutas is probably the dumbest thing you can do. You'll never get enough Phoenixes to counter the mutas and when he sees it he'll just add Corrupters to his army. Phoenix is a harassment tool but it also gives the Zerg so much time to drone that all that harassment is more than voided. And Phoenix are easy to mass? What? Are you in plat league or something? Drop 3 stargates and you going to have enough mutas no problemo. I think elfi was doing same when he scouted mutas.
only possible on maps were you can safely FFE or safely wall of your natural.
Else you will die so easy to a sudden techswitch.
|
if the conditions are right, a good ammount of mutas can harrass non stop and it's hard to deal with, they're too effective sometimes imo. mass muta does win games sometimes so yeah. there should be a way to effectively deal with them and no, mass marines and stalkers aint it.
|
I think mutalisk + larva is most broken thing in game. Protoss has no effective counter to them. And im sure lower than mid level masters might think they are shit, because they or their opponents cant play mutalisks.
|
On October 25 2011 18:25 UnholyRai wrote:
speaking as a diamond protoss player I can say that the problem with mutas in p v z is the following:
1) If you don't have a critical mass of pheonix, mutas completely wreck them.
2) High templar storms can be easily dodged by the fast moving muta, and then you're screwed
3) Archons have tiny range of 3, it is incredibly easy to dodge them with mutas.
4) It is incredibly difficult to defend against MASS muta with stalker, because if you keep your whole stalker ball together mutas can simply fly to a location where your stalkers aren't. You need to often "get lucky" with a blink to catch the mutas. If you split up your stalkers, a MASS ball of mutas can outright kill them.
Personally, I don't even like the tempest, i would prefer a range buff to air for archons as a fix for the muta problem.
The only thing that i'd like to point out is that while mutas can get out of storms quickly, the DPS is still high enough to put down a fair amount of damage. Do that a few times and the mutas have to retreat because they're fragile enough to be picked off very very quickly by blink stalkers.
Also, while storm may not do damage, it'll still force the mutas back and cause less damage total.
|
On October 26 2011 02:14 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 02:06 K3Nyy wrote:On October 26 2011 01:59 Big J wrote:On October 26 2011 01:48 Amui wrote:
The strong part about muta's ZvP is the fact that without blink tech, protoss can't even think about taking a 3rd. Protoss actually just gets stuck on 2bases. Until storm comes out and 1-2 templar with enough energy to storm is at each base with cannon support, the army can't move out without a basetrade being forced, which protoss won't win.
I think mutalisks against protoss are just too strong as a snowball unit. If Protoss can keep muta numbers to 10 or less, then they are completely manageable. But if muta's hit about 15, then they become this ball of death that doesn't seem to shrink. If there was a way for protoss to hit 3 bases safely against mutalisks without needing storm, then I think it'd be fine because 3 base protoss can handle mutalisks because there's enough gas for stalkers and templar. It's just that lings and mutalisks are so much faster than the stalker sentry zealot ball for defending a concentrated attack. Bla bla bla bla... Phoenix is a hardcounter to mutas and has a lot of harassment utility as well and is easy to mass... Protoss players just tend to always hit the "I want a cheesy unit to get a free win"-button when they see a stargate... If you fear mutas go standard FFE into stargate and build like 3-4 phoenixes. If you see a spire you add another 2-3 phoenixes before the spire finishes. If he goes for mutas in this situation he is dead. If he doesn't he invested 250/200 into nothing... It's really not that hard, all you don't even need 1a with phoenixes! Going SG in response to mutas is probably the dumbest thing you can do. You'll never get enough Phoenixes to counter the mutas and when he sees it he'll just add Corrupters to his army. Phoenix is a harassment tool but it also gives the Zerg so much time to drone that all that harassment is more than voided. And Phoenix are easy to mass? What? Are you in plat league or something? Phoenix are easy to mass... They take 35sec, without chronoboost. You get 4 nonchronoboosted phoenix out of 1starport until the first round of mutalisks pop. That's more than enough to counter any amount of initial mutalisks. But I guess you always hit the void ray button, because it is so tempting to build void rays when it just gives you so many free wins...
Phoenix are also pretty expensive, and a Protoss has to conserve gas wherever possible, especially if they've lost sentries early.
|
On October 25 2011 18:26 Arvd wrote:
I think you are underplaying the strengths of a mutalisk in ZvP. Stalkers are the protoss equivalent of a marine vs mutalisks. However the main problem is is that we cannot produce stalkers as fast as terran make marines and there is also the fact that marines are significantly less costly than stalkers. Stalkers are also easily cleaned up by large amounts of mutas.
The other option for protoss is Pheonixes.This is not viable because by the time we start pheonix production zerg will have 8-10 mutas. There is also the fact that pheonixes seem to be made to clump up and Mutalisks have bounce. You may know that 1 pheonix can kill infinite mutalisks but I think that no one can micro well enough in a 1 pheonix vs 20 muta scenario even ignoring the fact that they need to warp in and macro. However if you scout the mutas early and opend Stargate you can use pheonixes with chrono.
We can also build canons however this is not as effective as turrets as we cannot repair them. This means you just clean up the 2-3 canons and then you have got free reign until the stalkers come.
Archons are also not too good as they require to be very close to the mutas. They have three range. All the muta player has to do is fly away when they see an archon.
This leaves the HT. It is very hard to storm a unit as fast as the mutas and you need to be constantly aware of the threat. It is also hard to storm flying units even with flyer help.
This leaves protoss with either having to all-in push when we see mutas. Defend and max out and a-move, Get to the Mothership and archon toilet the mutas. As you can see they are not particularly good options :D
Not very sure about ZvT though
What are you talking about phoenixes not being viable? Remember it takes significantly longer for Zerg to get Lair (80s) and then Spire (100s) than it does for Protoss to get cyber core (50s) and Stargate (60s). Most of the time Zerg doesn't rush to Lair vs Protoss, which gives the Protoss even more time. You have 70 seconds that's 2 phoenixes without chrono boost before the Zerg can even start making mutas.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
