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On October 25 2011 23:21 Kindred wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 23:19 Hantak wrote:On October 25 2011 23:12 Kindred wrote:On October 25 2011 23:05 Hantak wrote:On October 25 2011 22:59 Kindred wrote:On October 25 2011 22:52 Iamyournoob wrote:On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest. Quoted for truth - can't say it any better. Those are exactly my thoughts on the Mutas in WoL and on how I feel about Blizzard aproaching the issue. quoted for truth again. Didnt the Pheonix have that AoE attack in the early builds of the game? Then it was inactive for a few second to cooldown... Id rather that then the current tempest and keep the carrier Yeah i think it was called "overcharge" or "overdrive". Sure it would be great but... it doesnt change the fact it takes time to be activated and mutas are fast, they could easily either snipe the phoenix or run away and leave the phoenix shot the air. that can be easily changed though for it to start faster Yet you fail to realize how abusable that could be. what happens when the Protoss goes air? besides the obvious more queens a couple spores... overlord spread, they get all rallied to the Z base, clumped up, sure you can split them, but against the speed of the phoenix its really hard to defend them unless they are all on one spot, how can you stop a group of phoenix get in use this ability and kill 20+ overlords? ovies dont have the speed of the muta. With a almost instant or faster spell of that nature you can deal massive amounts of damage and it wouldnt just fullify its role to just deal with mutas. and with a slower casting spell of that nature you will have a hard time hitting the mutas :S Good point, didnt think of that. It really sounds like corsair is the best way to go?
It seems every good idea in this thread is flawed in one way or another, just as the Mass Muta ZvP situation is at the moment. I guess Sairs really is the obvious solution to go for. Zerg's getting their Defilers back (sort of) so why can't we get sairs? T.T
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As a Terran player... Mutalisks once they reach a critical mass, can crush most everything with a little ling support. No amount of missle turrets will stop mutas from coming into your base and killing every worker/depot/production building you have. That's just my PoV dont bash plz.
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Yeah i dont understand the protoss unit. A tier 3 units to deal with tier 2 harass? It really doesnt make sense... I wish they would keep the carrier and fix the muta problem in another way. Maybe buff archons (by upgrade or something).
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On October 26 2011 00:27 aderum wrote:
Yeah i dont understand the protoss unit. A tier 3 units to deal with tier 2 harass? It really doesnt make sense... I wish they would keep the carrier and fix the muta problem in another way. Maybe buff archons (by upgrade or something).
You wont be able to mass enough mutas in t2 and dont get killed by P's ground army for it to matter. It's an end game answer for MASS muta not just 10 or 15 mutas around the 10m mark. Which are stopped by Archons, Blink Stalkers etc.
Tempest is Ps anwser to 35 mutas flying in your base and having nothing but storm to counter it.
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On October 26 2011 00:23 HikariPrime wrote:
As a Terran player... Mutalisks once they reach a critical mass, can crush most everything with a little ling support. No amount of missle turrets will stop mutas from coming into your base and killing every worker/depot/production building you have. That's just my PoV dont bash plz.
The key as a terran play is to suffer as little damage as possible from the opponents mutalisks while constantly piling on pressure with drops/hellions, and when you move out with your doom push, he lacks has to many mutalisks to have a good army.
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It depends on your perspective on what "overpowered" means.
In terms of how often you use them mutas are a huge part of Zerg. In some TvZ games 80% of your resources will go on mutalisks.
When IdrA played bomber he actually stopped making broodlords at one point and went back to mutas! When a unit is so good you can use it instead of hive tech it does seem to be a little strong.
When I play Zerg I use mutas in ZvP a lot as well. They are REALLY hard to deal with.
The changes in HotS don't make mutas worse in small numbers, only in large numbers. This is a good thing in my opinion.
Also we knew this would happen in WoL beta. Remember all those threads about how imbalanced being able to put 60 mutas on one hotkey would be? Blizzard caught up eventually xD
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On October 26 2011 00:10 TutsiRebel wrote:it's really, REALLY hard to get them in such high numbers, but honestly I do think a ball of 30+ mutas has no answer. Not much of an issue, however, because there's almost always some sort of pressure you can place on a zerg to keep the muta ball from getting out of hand. Mutas are incredibly expensive. Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest. Wow, this is a fantastic idea.
Pretty much anything is better than making an Air Colossus. I will be unbelievably cross if the Tempest does for anti-air what the Colossus does for ground armies. I am heartily sick of encountering dead-ends in ZvP strategy.
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i can't imagine getting tempests out in time to defend against mutas and also if both players micro well the zerg will still have an edge due to mobility and numbers
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They are strong when stacked and unlike other 2 races such as banshee or pheonix and void ray, you can produce multiple of them at once from a building that also producess other units like lings and roaches. As for other races we gotta spend extra mineral and gas in order to make those production buildings which they cannot afford. Therefore thats what makes mutas insanely strong and they got insane dps as well. It is really difficult to deal with those mutas once they get 15+ counts even with marines and turrets cost way too expensive to make.
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IMO:
Thor is mech's answer to mutilisk play ATM and is less than Ideal because of it's size and cost so the Warhound is just a smaller cheaper version of the thor and should serve as anti-air support in the mech army, the + vs mechanical seams bad to me because it might be too good VS P and turn TvT mech into Warhound Wars.
Protoss has stalkers, sentries (shield absorbs a lot of the bounce damage) Archon and Pheonix, A mass Muta army is actually cost effective vs Stalker + sentries, can spread vs archons and use flanks to catch pheonix.
personally if I wanted Protoss to have an AoE answer to Mutalisks I would buff Archons, Introducing a new unit that screams "I'm your counter to muta unit" seams a little one dimensional and not that interesting.
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1st, tempest is supposed to help against MASS muta. It's not meant to defend against 7 mutas.
Also Mutas are as good as the player who use them. Like in BW if you have insane multitasking and unit control then mutas can be very very very dangerous.
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Mutas are not OP at the moment, but I am still waiting for a Zerg player with enough APM to harass with two groups of mutas at two bases simultaneously or two parts of same base.
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They are simply trying to balance the game at a noob level. Dustin Browder says in the interview with Kennigit if a unit could harass the back of a worker line such that sub-diamond players would die to the harass, they would have to nerf the unit, even if it were balanced at the top levels. To me, the mutalisk was potentially game ending in starcraft 1 if you could not micro against the harass, so in sc2 they want players to simply be able to get a unit out that makes you safe. I'm assuming this is also why they removed more micro intensive units like reavers, arbiters, science vessels, etc. Apparently fungal growth used to target a single unit and then explode a few seconds later. I wish we had more of stuff like that. Stuff where the pros are the only ones who could pull the maneuvers off.
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im not rly that knowledgable about this "hard switch to mutas" people are talking about. is the hard switch to mass mutas in the late game usually the end for the zerg if it fails or can they just do another tech switch when the P has invested in a t3 air unit?
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On October 26 2011 00:41 Klive5ive wrote:
When a unit is so good you can use it instead of hive tech it does seem to be a little strong.
You can't use mutas to replace hive tech at all, against a good terran mech push they are almost worthless lategame. After you use hive tech to put a huge dent in the terran army suppy it can be good to reinforce with lower tech units because they will arrive at the terran base before he can build much, like mutas, lings, etc.
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On October 26 2011 00:49 dde wrote:
They are strong when stacked and unlike other 2 races such as banshee or pheonix and void ray, you can produce multiple of them at once from a building that also producess other units like lings and roaches. As for other races we gotta spend extra mineral and gas in order to make those production buildings which they cannot afford. Therefore thats what makes mutas insanely strong and they got insane dps as well. It is really difficult to deal with those mutas once they get 15+ counts even with marines and turrets cost way too expensive to make.
Mutas have insane DPS? They do 9.6 dps against unarmored units (if you count all 3 bounces)... 6.5 dps against units with 1 armor. That's terrible for a 2 supply unit that costs 100 gas.
I understand you can stack them and they fly etc, but for their cost they hardly do "insane" dps.
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yep mutas are overpowered in big masses and its easy to get a big mass. Always was suprised that they never switched up the muta damage so they are less effectiv against thors/stalkers/buildings, probably because of the roach. (but the don't deal much damage to begin with so i understand why blizzard didn't do it  ) Might see this happen with HotS though with mutas as the tempest is nothing else then the thor with less damage and more splash. (Not that i belief people would get the tempest against mutas, terrans don't get the bc against mutas as well (though he needs upgrades)).
So i guess the muta nerf depends on how well the warhound does :p. Though there are soo many answers to mutas and yet they are unused mostly because magic boxing takes around 20 apm to pull off and turns the mutas into a super effective fight expensiv aoe units heads on lategame unit. The easiest way would have been to make the muta spread out less so the magic box would take tons of apm otherwise the splash damage would be a fair trade.
But I guess they deserve the title of best glass canon ingame (suicide units don't count ), so fast and enough vision that they can avoid damage while having an easy time to kill of stuff and the other side needing to dedicate 80% of their production to deal with the mutas, still unable to engage the mutas with only a part of the army etc x3.
Imo they are on the edge of being overpowered, they are hard to deal with but not impossible, so i guess its a good choice by blizzard to bring out some support units against them.
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They are far too effective at killing probe lines, stalkers, cannons, pylons, etc. For what it's worth Protoss doesn't have an "effective" counter to mutalisks. Protoss can counter small numbers of mutas with phoenixes, or with blink stalkers, but often times the mutalisk ball can grow to 10-15 mutas while the Protoss player is still on two bases, and it is unrealistic to assume that any Protoss goes for templar tech before taking his third, so HT/archon aren't really an effective counter either. When mutalisks really become a problem is when they kill faster than the Protoss can warp in units to deal with it. As a realistic nerf, I would think mutalisks could use a minor speed decrease and a damage decrease - they are already hands down the most effective form of contain and harass in the game.
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On October 26 2011 00:41 Klive5ive wrote:When IdrA played bomber he actually stopped making broodlords at one point and went back to mutas! When a unit is so good you can use it instead of hive tech it does seem to be a little strong.
If a Protoss player makes Stalkers in the late game, ignoring Colossus and other units higher up in the tech tree, does that make them overpowered? You make units that fit the current situation in the game and if you need Mutalisks to deal with drops at the 30 minutes mark when you've been on Hive for 10 minutes, then you need Mutalisks. It says nothing about their strength or whether or not they are overpowered.
And no, Mutalisks are not overpowered.
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Mutas are real pain in the ass because you can just fly around and kill worker here and there and leave before you take even a shot. If there is cannon at minerals then you can just fly around and snipe random pylons and another buildings because toss cant afford to cover whole base with cannons. Mutas are real pain specially when you have taken ur third or you are going to take it because you have to split your army to 3 different places. I think that the only really good unit against mutas are archons but they are so slow and big so it takes for a year to get from place A to place B so its hard to cover ur bases with them. Phoenixes are good if you get enough but while you have made 4 phoenixes ur opponent have made 20 mutas. Problem with storm is that mutas are just too fast so they can dodge it easily. And then finally blink stalkers, they are good against mutas as long there isnt 20 mutas.
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EPT
