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With mass recall being on the nexus in HoTS, things like mass muta shouldn't be a problem anymore. Protoss can go blink stalker heavy vs a zerg that's doing mass mutas, push to do damage, and recall to prevent the base race. I can see building a couple of extra nexuses just to prevent the threat of a muta counterattack, and then it will always end up being the full protoss army against the muta flock. Mutalisks ZvP will not be an effective strategy even in lower leagues, and the tempest won't even need to be built.
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On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest.
Quoted for truth - can't say it any better.
Those are exactly my thoughts on the Mutas in WoL and on how I feel about Blizzard aproaching the issue.
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Yes, mutas are a little OP vs Protoss. Blink stalkers are okay for defense, but you're still pinned to your base because the lings will crush you. Storm doesn't work well because you have to turtle while you get it and then you can't reliably hit the mutas with it. HT and archons both pose a problem that they suck up all your gas so you don't have enough stalkers. Phoenixes are okay early on, but the muta ball eventually grows too large or Z gets a couple infestors to kill all your phoenix. The reason we don't see a lot of mutas in ZvP isn't because they can be defended; it's because gateway timings hit before mutas are out are deadly without roaches. As Z are transitioning from roaches into mutas tho, it's becoming almost impossible to exploit timings and once the mutas are out, it's usually gg.
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On October 25 2011 22:45 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 22:42 HaXXspetten wrote:
I wouldn't say mutas are OP, but it is by far the most annoying unit in the game, and anything Blizzard adds to the game that will render them less viable I will welcome gladly. I hate mutas with a passion... :/ Yes it's annoying for terran and protoss. But for zerg hellions, marines, thors, tanks, stalkers, sentries are all annoying so what? I mean half the people are having problems with mutas cause it's not easy to deal with them, but it's a problem of a player, not unit or balance. When 20 hellions are comming into my base and I am not prepared I know I am dead, same with mutas.
Right... because 20 hellions are great at killing buildings, just like 20 mutas... /irony
The thing about mutas is they grant huge map control, sure they are expensive and squishy but you can hardly take care of them one at a time, that mixed with its speed and beign massable make the muta a very good unit, its great for harass but in large numbers you can kill almost any unit in the game with one volley, with little to no losses.
Marines with thors where the answer to mass mutas, i used also the Raven's HSM to have a more mobile army but until i gathered a big army i was pinned down to my base, had to split my forces to avoid losing my base part by part, once i saw mutas on the field i knew i HAD to push right away, or the fight will get harder and harder with every minute, i had to push in order to force the Z player stop expanding and droning and make an army and engage with its mutas.
Protoss army.. besides the archon and the phoenix they had a hard time dealing with mutas (stalkers dps is abysmal for dealing with mutas) and you know how easy infestors melt phoenix, much like any other air unit.
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On October 25 2011 22:52 Iamyournoob wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest. Quoted for truth - can't say it any better. Those are exactly my thoughts on the Mutas in WoL and on how I feel about Blizzard aproaching the issue.
quoted for truth again.
Didnt the Pheonix have that AoE attack in the early builds of the game? Then it was inactive for a few second to cooldown... Id rather that then the current tempest and keep the carrier
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On October 25 2011 22:59 Kindred wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 22:52 Iamyournoob wrote:On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest. Quoted for truth - can't say it any better. Those are exactly my thoughts on the Mutas in WoL and on how I feel about Blizzard aproaching the issue. quoted for truth again. Didnt the Pheonix have that AoE attack in the early builds of the game? Then it was inactive for a few second to cooldown... Id rather that then the current tempest and keep the carrier
But why keep the carrier? I'm not saying the tempest is neccasarily a better choice but how fun it is to have a late game unit that you almost never see in pro games? I fully support Blizzard in their objective to replace it with a-better-unit. If the tempest is one is left to be seen though.
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On October 25 2011 22:59 Kindred wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 22:52 Iamyournoob wrote:On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest. Quoted for truth - can't say it any better. Those are exactly my thoughts on the Mutas in WoL and on how I feel about Blizzard aproaching the issue. quoted for truth again. Didnt the Pheonix have that AoE attack in the early builds of the game? Then it was inactive for a few second to cooldown... Id rather that then the current tempest and keep the carrier
Yeah i think it was called "overcharge" or "overdrive".
Sure it would be great but... it doesnt change the fact it takes time to be activated and mutas are fast, they could easily either snipe the phoenix or run away and leave the phoenix shot the air.
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PvZ turns into base race kind of often when the zerg goes muta
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On October 25 2011 23:04 gruff wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 22:59 Kindred wrote:On October 25 2011 22:52 Iamyournoob wrote:On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest. Quoted for truth - can't say it any better. Those are exactly my thoughts on the Mutas in WoL and on how I feel about Blizzard aproaching the issue. quoted for truth again. Didnt the Pheonix have that AoE attack in the early builds of the game? Then it was inactive for a few second to cooldown... Id rather that then the current tempest and keep the carrier But why keep the carrier? I'm not saying the tempest is neccasarily a better choice but how fun it is to have a late game unit that you almost never see in pro games? I fully support Blizzard in their objective to replace it with a-better-unit. If the tempest is one is left to be seen though.
Carrier might not have been seen often but when massed it was a hell of a good army. Realistically though, having a couple of carriers in your deathball was never a bad thing if you had the tech. its flying shooters really messed up with the opponent AI. I still maintain that I would rather see the early tempest with shurikens and hard shield that activated against ground. Sounded a lot more interesting
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On October 25 2011 23:05 Hantak wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 22:59 Kindred wrote:On October 25 2011 22:52 Iamyournoob wrote:On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest. Quoted for truth - can't say it any better. Those are exactly my thoughts on the Mutas in WoL and on how I feel about Blizzard aproaching the issue. quoted for truth again. Didnt the Pheonix have that AoE attack in the early builds of the game? Then it was inactive for a few second to cooldown... Id rather that then the current tempest and keep the carrier Yeah i think it was called "overcharge" or "overdrive". Sure it would be great but... it doesnt change the fact it takes time to be activated and mutas are fast, they could easily either snipe the phoenix or run away and leave the phoenix shot the air.
that can be easily changed though for it to start faster
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On October 25 2011 22:40 eYeball wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 22:22 Dalavita wrote:
The main reason marines are so strong in SC2 is because speedlings and mutalisks, and to a lesser degree chargelots are so strong. If marines ever got nerfed, those three units would have to be readjusted or Terran wouldn't be able to compete on any level. What about mech? I think you are wrong, especially with the addition of the units we saw from HotS. Speedling runbies will be dealt easily with shredder, and battle hellion can take out the chargelots. The warhound also deals with the mutalisks.
I was talking about WoL when I wrote that post, since that's the discussion topic.
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On October 25 2011 23:12 Kindred wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 23:05 Hantak wrote:On October 25 2011 22:59 Kindred wrote:On October 25 2011 22:52 Iamyournoob wrote:On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest. Quoted for truth - can't say it any better. Those are exactly my thoughts on the Mutas in WoL and on how I feel about Blizzard aproaching the issue. quoted for truth again. Didnt the Pheonix have that AoE attack in the early builds of the game? Then it was inactive for a few second to cooldown... Id rather that then the current tempest and keep the carrier Yeah i think it was called "overcharge" or "overdrive". Sure it would be great but... it doesnt change the fact it takes time to be activated and mutas are fast, they could easily either snipe the phoenix or run away and leave the phoenix shot the air. that can be easily changed though for it to start faster
Clearly Protoss needs a unit that isntagibs Mutas on sight... ... ...
Ahm.
Archons, Psistorm, Phoenix, Stalker, Cannons...
Why not just give Archons a bit more Splash against Air and be done with this? Yes, Muas are a pain in the ass.. AND THEY SHOULD BE, it's the only reason to ever build them...
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On October 25 2011 18:23 Whiplash wrote:
Mmm blizzard should have just made the phoenix actually counter the muta instead of adding a whole new unit I think...
the problem is they're trying to create all these new units when, sadly, they've all been worse then their brood war counterparts. they don't want to have scourge and corsair, but it really is better than what we have now.
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On October 25 2011 23:12 Kindred wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 23:05 Hantak wrote:On October 25 2011 22:59 Kindred wrote:On October 25 2011 22:52 Iamyournoob wrote:On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest. Quoted for truth - can't say it any better. Those are exactly my thoughts on the Mutas in WoL and on how I feel about Blizzard aproaching the issue. quoted for truth again. Didnt the Pheonix have that AoE attack in the early builds of the game? Then it was inactive for a few second to cooldown... Id rather that then the current tempest and keep the carrier Yeah i think it was called "overcharge" or "overdrive". Sure it would be great but... it doesnt change the fact it takes time to be activated and mutas are fast, they could easily either snipe the phoenix or run away and leave the phoenix shot the air. that can be easily changed though for it to start faster
Yet you fail to realize how abusable that could be. what happens when the Protoss goes air? besides the obvious more queens a couple spores... overlord spread, they get all rallied to the Z base, clumped up, sure you can split them, but against the speed of the phoenix its really hard to defend them unless they are all on one spot, how can you stop a group of phoenix get in use this ability and kill 20+ overlords? ovies dont have the speed of the muta. With a almost instant or faster spell of that nature you can deal massive amounts of damage and it wouldnt just fullify its role to just deal with mutas. and with a slower casting spell of that nature you will have a hard time hitting the mutas :S
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Perhaps the warhound was added to give Terran mech increased viability. As it stands, mech consists of hellions, tanks and thors, occasionally with Viking support. However, if the thor count is low, as it often is, the mech army is vulnerable to thor snipes. Take out the thors, and the relatively immobile army would be destroyed at no cost by enemy air to ground units (mutas, banshee, VRs). By giving mech a cheap AA unit that can be fielded in much larger numbers than the thor due to its lower cost, the warhound increases mech's versatility.
The tempest may be to increase the power of the protoss deathball. In most deathball compositions, collossus are included, which prompts the opponent to mass vikings, corruptors, etc. These are units that naturally bunch up, and become perfect targets for the tempest. As it stands now, both vikings and corruptors are highly mobile units that are able to quickly snipe collosi and retreat, leaving the deathball much weaker by eliminating much of its Aoe. With the tempest, the deathball becomes much more viable and collosi snipes become much riskier and require more skill and positioning than simply attack move and retreat.
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On October 25 2011 23:15 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 23:12 Kindred wrote:On October 25 2011 23:05 Hantak wrote:On October 25 2011 22:59 Kindred wrote:On October 25 2011 22:52 Iamyournoob wrote:On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest. Quoted for truth - can't say it any better. Those are exactly my thoughts on the Mutas in WoL and on how I feel about Blizzard aproaching the issue. quoted for truth again. Didnt the Pheonix have that AoE attack in the early builds of the game? Then it was inactive for a few second to cooldown... Id rather that then the current tempest and keep the carrier Yeah i think it was called "overcharge" or "overdrive". Sure it would be great but... it doesnt change the fact it takes time to be activated and mutas are fast, they could easily either snipe the phoenix or run away and leave the phoenix shot the air. that can be easily changed though for it to start faster Clearly Protoss needs a unit that isntagibs Mutas on sight... ... ... Ahm. Archons, Psistorm, Phoenix, Stalker, Cannons... Why not just give Archons a bit more Splash against Air and be done with this? Yes, Muas are a pain in the ass.. AND THEY SHOULD BE, it's the only reason to ever build them...
I agree they dont need something to instagib. The new tempest seems to do that and I think that they should expand on an already existing unit. Ther overload ability of the phenix doesnt HAVE to kill them but cripple them enough to balance it out. Also you enter the whole discussion of how many pheonix do you need. Surely if u have 17 overloaded pheonix, that should do considerable damage.
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I'm not sure about the stats for the warhound, but basically the idea is just to provide diminishing returns. Mutas should be good, and they are, but it should not be desirable to get 40+ mutas.
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On October 25 2011 23:19 Hantak wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 23:12 Kindred wrote:On October 25 2011 23:05 Hantak wrote:On October 25 2011 22:59 Kindred wrote:On October 25 2011 22:52 Iamyournoob wrote:On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest. Quoted for truth - can't say it any better. Those are exactly my thoughts on the Mutas in WoL and on how I feel about Blizzard aproaching the issue. quoted for truth again. Didnt the Pheonix have that AoE attack in the early builds of the game? Then it was inactive for a few second to cooldown... Id rather that then the current tempest and keep the carrier Yeah i think it was called "overcharge" or "overdrive". Sure it would be great but... it doesnt change the fact it takes time to be activated and mutas are fast, they could easily either snipe the phoenix or run away and leave the phoenix shot the air. that can be easily changed though for it to start faster Yet you fail to realize how abusable that could be. what happens when the Protoss goes air? besides the obvious more queens a couple spores... overlord spread, they get all rallied to the Z base, clumped up, sure you can split them, but against the speed of the phoenix its really hard to defend them unless they are all on one spot, how can you stop a group of phoenix get in use this ability and kill 20+ overlords? ovies dont have the speed of the muta. With a almost instant or faster spell of that nature you can deal massive amounts of damage and it wouldnt just fullify its role to just deal with mutas. and with a slower casting spell of that nature you will have a hard time hitting the mutas :S
Good point, didnt think of that. It really sounds like corsair is the best way to go?
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On October 25 2011 22:52 Iamyournoob wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 18:29 Toadvine wrote:
One thing I don't entirely like about Mutalisks in SC2 is how effective they are when massed. Balance aside, it just looks and feels weird. I know that Zerg use Mutas as a crutch in ZvT especially, but ideally I would prefer huge Muta clouds to be undesirable.
On that note, I do understand why they would want to give Protoss a straight-up answer to huge Muta numbers, because nowadays the answer is simply "don't let it happen". None of the Protoss anti-Muta measures are especially good against like 30+ Mutas. However, their solution is really dumb. Protoss already have an "anti-Muta" air unit, so why not accomplish the same thing by buffing the Phoenix, for example by giving it an upgrade on the Fleet Beacon that enables an energy-based anti-light aoe attack? If there's one thing Protoss does not need, it's extremely expensive reactionary units.
Besides, buffing Phoenix makes for better gameplay, as they're way more interesting than huge a-move wonders like the Tempest. Quoted for truth - can't say it any better. Those are exactly my thoughts on the Mutas in WoL and on how I feel about Blizzard aproaching the issue.
i couldnt disagree more. i think it makes the strategy area of the game really shallow and boring when even when the enemy gets out a massive muta cloud (therefore is probably miles ahead and the game should be over) that theres this straight up answer, oh ye you just make a tempest its ezpz. theres no depth to that choice, you dont analyse your gameplay, you dont go back through the 20 minutes before looking for improvements to your game, risks to take, better scouting that could be done.
people like tyler and day9 have said this before, and they are able to get the point across a lot better than me ;/ but one of bw's strengths as a long standing rts was the lack of a simple answer, there were 100 answers to each question, depending on your style, strengths and the situation. that kept the game interesting a fresh (and rewarding) for 10 years, now if we are going to have this simple answer for the situation, the game will get stale and boring.
On October 25 2011 23:21 phyren wrote:
I'm not sure about the stats for the warhound, but basically the idea is just to provide diminishing returns. Mutas should be good, and they are, but it should not be desirable to get 40+ mutas.
but it should be desirable for have 50 stalkers, or 100 marines? you're argument is completely arbitrary.
in theory having 100 marines vs a zerg who scouts it, and goes banelings should be a 'bad choice'. but even though he has the advantage (as he should have, scouting you and acting on that information) you can use greater control to still swing the battle in your favour. this balances the effects of having great micro, macro, decision making. with strong counters, micro and to a lesser extent macro start to matter a lot less.
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On October 25 2011 18:26 Arvd wrote:
The other option for protoss is Pheonixes.This is not viable because by the time we start pheonix production zerg will have 8-10 mutas. There is also the fact that pheonixes seem to be made to clump up and Mutalisks have bounce. You may know that 1 pheonix can kill infinite mutalisks but I think that no one can micro well enough in a 1 pheonix vs 20 muta scenario even ignoring the fact that they need to warp in and macro. However if you scout the mutas early and opend Stargate you can use pheonixes with chrono.
Not very sure about ZvT though
If Phoenix isn't a viable reaction to mass muta (I agree) then an even more expensive capital ship will be even less viable.
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EPT
