EPT[D]Are mutalisks overpowered in WOL?? - Page 8
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jackalope1234
122 Posts
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
The Tempest is just a muscular way of dealing with the same problem - essentially an airborne Thor. It's a "the Zerg is going heavy mutalisk, build this to deal with it" unit. It also does help that unlike Thors, they can float around hammering stuff and the Zerg has to build a shitload of Corruptors to deal with it. It's not like Thors where you pretty much use them as mobile missile turrets that get killed by zergling runbys. The only things the Zerg can build to deal with them are Vipers, Mutalisks and Corruptors. Warhound is there just to make pure mech viable without the crutch of massed marines. Nothing else. Instead of one Thor, I'll just build a few Warhounds and position them around my army. No real change. Considering the number of abilities Zerg are going to have to deal with Marines in HoTS I don't think "build marine" is going to be a valid answer anymore. | ||
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Dismay
United States1180 Posts
Terran? What can I say, I've heard marines are pretty good. | ||
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Gyro_SC2
Canada540 Posts
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dgdsg
Germany91 Posts
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anotherone
90 Posts
On October 25 2011 21:53 Dismay wrote: Terran? What can I say, I've heard marines are pretty good. Marines cant be everywhere at once and split units is what mutas are waiting for. | ||
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Ripper41
284 Posts
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
On October 25 2011 19:01 NormandyBoy wrote: If you look at Broodwar TvZ, Terran had a direct counter to mass mutalisks : irradiate (a spell from the raven that killed a muta and damaged all the nearby ones), thors are kinda the same thing, except they are slow as hell and have no other use (whereas irradiate was pivital to fight zerg lurkers and defilers). The solution terran found in SC2 is to force the mutalisks away from their bases by dropping like crazy, MMA style. Now this may be balanced in the sense that Z and T have the same chances of winning and because there is a lot of micro/decision making involved, however I don't like it forces Terran to adopt a particular style of play. I hope the warhound will be better against mutas than the thor, but I'd really like to see the raven and its seeker missile reworked in hots... Good post. But irradiate wasn't specifically a hard counter - only due to players using muta stacking was it super effective. SC2 completely eliminates stacking so irradiate would do jack all. On October 25 2011 20:15 -Archangel- wrote: Why do people expect 1-2 thors or 1-2 HT to counter 20+ mutas that are worth 2000/2000? Same with archons. If zerg invested so much resources into mutas you need to invest a similar number to counter it. It is as simple as that. Only thing that I know of that breaks this formula are 8marine+medivac drops. Those drops need much more resources to stop unless the terran player is an idiot and lets 2 banelings kill all marines. Then you got marines that counter mutas while actually being way under the cost of mutas and you consider that OK. Then you expect Stalkers alone to counter mutas in 1vs1 scenario where Stalkers are both lower cost and lower tech. Seriously people! I don't understand your way of thinking. Another good one. I'm sure people were hoping for colossus to shoot up  Really though, only one thing goes through my head: ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/4/4f/Corsair.png) Blizzard is essentially trying to invoke Brood War to fix their game, but have changed around the units a bit for whatever egotistic reason to say it has nothing to do with Brood War. Warhound is a goliath ... but not exactly a goliath. Swarm Host is a lurker but not exactly a lurker. Dark Swarm returns in the Viper. Tempest is like the corsair but not exactly a corsair (and costs a million times more) and they just gave d-web to the Oracle. And the hellion can transform into a firebat. But because they refuse to use the units in the original roles, they end up doing little to help the matchup. In PvZ in Brood War, the corsair's splash damage negates mass muta balls, in much the same way as the Tempest, but at a fraction of the price. In SC2, the Phoenix does a good job of handling early game muta like the corsair did, but the problem with SC2 is the investment leaves your base open to 2base zerg strats thanks to the Roach. In Brood War, this was not too much of an issue because hydras were weak as hell in early game (80hp to 145hp roach), and if you didn't have them protect your base, all your overlords would get raped until you get scourge out. Regardless, throughout the whole game, a squadron of corsair will keep muta numbers low until you get templar+archons which completely decimate mutas. So why can't we just have the Corsair back over the Tempest? Why can't we just increase Archon range to 4? Why not fix storm to deal with mutas (cast range, area, damage-over-time ratio). These are all simple fixes and simple ideas. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
Or I die to a timing attack because I went mutalisk Yeah I don't go mutalisk very much against Protoss. Against Terran mutalisk basically NEED to be this strong otherwise it would be impossible to beat tank/marine in the mid game (on the current map pool, anyway.) They are too many chokes on most map that give you too much map control for the zerg to let go, but ground army is just so ineffective against tanks. So you make 50 banelings and 50 mutalisk and hope you get most of the marines... I feel that if this unit was implemented right now, TvZ would become really imbalanced. Yet, this comes out in HoTS with zerg having plenty of new options so we'll have to see. | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
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Kindred
Canada396 Posts
On October 25 2011 22:15 a176 wrote: Really though, only one thing goes through my head: Blizzard is essentially trying to invoke Brood War to fix their game, but have changed around the units a bit for whatever egotistic reason to say it has nothing to do with Brood War. Warhound is a goliath ... but not exactly a goliath. Swarm Host is a lurker but not exactly a lurker. Dark Swarm returns in the Viper. Tempest is like the corsair but not exactly a corsair (and costs a million times more) and they just gave d-web to the Oracle. And the hellion can transform into a firebat. But because they refuse to use the units in the original roles, they end up doing little to help the matchup. In PvZ in Brood War, the corsair's splash damage negates mass muta balls, in much the same way as the Tempest, but at a fraction of the price. In SC2, the Phoenix does a good job of handling early game muta like the corsair did, but the problem with SC2 is the investment leaves your base open to 2base zerg strats thanks to the Roach. In Brood War, this was not too much of an issue because hydras were weak as hell in early game (80hp to 145hp roach), and if you didn't have them protect your base, all your overlords would get raped until you get scourge out. Regardless, throughout the whole game, a squadron of corsair will keep muta numbers low until you get templar+archons which completely decimate mutas. So why can't we just have the Corsair back over the Tempest? Why can't we just increase Archon range to 4? Why not fix storm to deal with mutas (cast range, area, damage-over-time ratio). These are all simple fixes and simple ideas. very good point. Although i dont think they can play around with storm too much or else it can have devastating effects against other units. I still remember before the beta release they said the tempest would replace the carrier but it was the old design where it shot these shurikens and had a strong Anti Ground shield. They dropped the idea saying that people were too emotionally attached to the carrier. And not here we are and they removed it and replaced it with a unit which, as far as I can tell, is great as AA but has the ground attack of a probe. I do agree that when massed at a critical amount, mass muta is very hard to deal with for P because blink stalkers dont have the mobility to keep up and cant be everywhere at the same time or they get picked off. | ||
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Manical
Sweden42 Posts
4-5+ thors can deal with any amount of mutas even if magicboxing, so there's not really any need for the warhound(as a AA unit). And the tempest just seems to be there to make protoss air deathballs viable, as I don't think protoss will be able to tech to them fast enough to stop muta harass anyway. And protoss mass air = useless zerg t3 units, so as a zerg player I'm really worried about lategame ZvP in Hots. | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
Watch Idra's ZvT and you will found out what I'm talking about. I play zerg, so im not biased  | ||
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Mr_Kyo
United States269 Posts
Is mass mutalisk such a common strategy that it requires the removal of the carrier and the addition of an all new capital ship? You are thinking of this incorrectly. Currently, Carrier has no role. This Tempest WILL have a role of fighting large flocks of mutas (however infrequent that may be). | ||
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Manical
Sweden42 Posts
On October 25 2011 22:29 Pr0wler wrote: The problem with the mutalisks is that you can select like 50(or even 100 if you want) of them at once. So now in SC2 we have zergs flying around with their huge flock of 35-40 mutas and almost nothing can stop it from doing damage. You can chase them around with marines and stalkers but that is not very effective... If the zerg knows what he is doing , he will know when to fly away with no losses. Watch Idra's ZvT and you will found out what I'm talking about. I play zerg, so im not biased 15 voidrays are not easy to stop either, so that logic doesn't work. You can't allow your opponent to get that big of a lead. 30 mutas = 3000/3000 minerals/gas 15 voidrays = 3750/2250 minerals/gas If a zerg player sees 15 voidays attacking without being prepared for it it's instant gg. Protoss just need to learn to scout for spires now that mutalisk strategies are becoming popular. | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
On October 25 2011 22:22 Dalavita wrote: The main reason marines are so strong in SC2 is because speedlings and mutalisks, and to a lesser degree chargelots are so strong. If marines ever got nerfed, those three units would have to be readjusted or Terran wouldn't be able to compete on any level. What about mech? I think you are wrong, especially with the addition of the units we saw from HotS. Speedling runbies will be dealt easily with shredder, and battle hellion can take out the chargelots. The warhound also deals with the mutalisks. | ||
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
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HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
On October 25 2011 22:39 Manical wrote: 15 voidrays are not easy to stop either, so that logic doesn't work. You can't allow your opponent to get that big of a lead. 30 mutas = 3000/3000 minerals/gas 15 voidrays = 3750/2250 minerals/gas If a zerg player sees 15 voidays attacking without being prepared for it it's instant gg. Protoss just need to learn to scout for spires now that mutalisk strategies are becoming popular. Except it's a million times easier to get 30 mutas than 15 void rays. For one, a zerg can instantly produce them from a bunch of hatches, whereas a toss would have to sit on a few stargates for 5-10 minutes. Second, Zerg usually gets a spire anyway for corruptors, so a mass tech switch to mutas is unscoutable. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On October 25 2011 22:42 HaXXspetten wrote: I wouldn't say mutas are OP, but it is by far the most annoying unit in the game, and anything Blizzard adds to the game that will render them less viable I will welcome gladly. I hate mutas with a passion... :/ Yes it's annoying for terran and protoss. But for zerg hellions, marines, thors, tanks, stalkers, sentries are all annoying so what? I mean half the people are having problems with mutas cause it's not easy to deal with them, but it's a problem of a player, not unit or balance. When 20 hellions are comming into my base and I am not prepared I know I am dead, same with mutas. | ||
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