New HotS Units/Abilities in Blizzcon - Page 373

On November 07 2011 01:50 nShade wrote:
If one replicates a broodling.... will it have a timer untill death?

On November 07 2011 01:41 neoghaleon55 wrote:
[Mod suggested]

Over the weekend, I have been watching and playing a lot of HotS custom matches. They are tons of fun, however there's been one concern that keeps me up at night....

The replicator and esports.

As many of you are aware, we nerds are not alone in this world. At any given tournament, there are many fans who do not even play starcraft. There are tons of people in the crowd for MSL, OSL,and GSL that don't even own the game, but they love watching Bisu and Nada crushing nerds. Recently, I was at MLG anaheim where I saw parents and friends of starcraft players attending the event. The nerds were trying to explain what exactly is going on the screen to non-players.
Now, as starcraft wasn't confusing enough, we have this replicator the can go and become the other person's race.

So the concerns are two folds as follows:

1. Replicators are freaking confusing to watch.
Even now when I watch protoss vs X with replicators, it's quite hard for me to discern which unit belongs to who. I know you can say "oh the colors are different." But it isn't immediately apparent to non-players. It isn't an enjoyable experience when the game becomes too confusing to understand, not to mention, random!
The protoss army vs Zerg will be significantly different than one vs Terran and so on.
The unit composition can vary so much that it's difficult to grasp what is going on.

2. Replicators remove "unique-ness" of watching two different races fighting. I'm not sure how many of you share this feeling but it does bother me a ton. Protoss no longer have a significant identity as it constantly changes with the matchup. It is also quite frustrating to watch PvX as it can sometimes look like a mirror matchup, we are losing the matchup variety in this sense. There are some of you that may argue "well, we had dark archons in BW and infestors in WoL and they do the same thing."
Well, no, not exactly. Dark archons and infestor NP needed a lot of teching to get to, not to mention the range was very limited. Race stealing was very risky to do, especially if you want to start an entire tech tree"

So let's discuss this.
For those who didn't read, this isn't a complaint on balance, just a design issue that makes it less fun to watch PvX matches, in my opinion. What's yours?

Edit: Could you imagine how difficult this replicator business would be to explain to someone who doesn't play SC2?
"Well you see, mom, the insects are player 1's units and the golden units are player 2's....unless player 2 builds this unit that copies the insect, thereby the insects would fight for player 2 against player 1's insects and there will be insects versus insects on the same side as the golden units who copied the insects."

Edit 2
Those of you complaining about how it is useless discussing a unit in an incomplete upcoming game are completely missing the point. This topic is trying to discuss how a unit that can copy any unit on screen for a strategy game THAT PRIDES ITSELF ON RACIAL DIVERSITY is some what counter productive. Let's keep on that track, shall we?

On November 07 2011 01:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
:O
you should go test that out on a custom HotS map

Anyway, I think I would be fine if they didn't allow replicating workers
Something seems so off that every single protoss game ends up with another tech tree as is.

On November 07 2011 02:06 sluggaslamoo wrote:


IMO this is a huge problem of SC2 as a whole. Its something that Browder doesn't seem to get at all, when he says things like, "if we add new units, the races [theme] are going to change, there is nothing we can do about that". Which we all know is a load of bulldust when you look at units like the viper, and then look at the replicator.

The design team really needs to think before designing the units. Starcraft BW could have looked more like C&C, but they stuck with their theme and made units that directly contrast with other races and further defined the theme of the race, rather than blur lines between the races which is what SC2 is doing.

"But what about dark archon?"
The difference between the replicator and dark-archon is that the dark-archon is a very heavily protoss themed unit, and has other spells apart from mind-control.



This was possible in BW, but you only see it in smurf matches and never in pro-play.

On November 07 2011 01:56 -Archangel- wrote:

And if you replicate a larva and you are not standing on creep, will you die?

On November 07 2011 02:40 Soulish wrote:

If you replicate a mule...

On November 07 2011 02:14 SolidZeal wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

Clearly a fair number of people don't like the design behind the replicant, which makes me sad because i really enjoy it. I think it adds an exciting amount of utility to the protoss arsenal. I also think that it won't be that hard to balance. The best targets for the expensive replicant are casters. Ghosts are the best anti caster in the game and infestor/viper is a caster combo that will hold it's own against infestor/templar, i'm sure.

I think the premise behind your post isn't bad, because the spectator value of a unit matters, but your reasoning seems bad to me. Don't act like its hard to understand the concept of replication. As for ruining racial diversity i just don't agree. All the units that will be replicated will interact in a unique way with the other protoss units. It's not like it will look like or play out anything like a mirror match would. The terran units in the protoss comp will be minimal most likely. Will this unit promote the avoidance of certain tech units? hypothetically, but if terran refuses to make a raven I will punish him with DTs for it. Terran will be better off building a raven and being prepared to counter my ravens with ghosts. Zerg may want to wait for a good timing to play infestors, but I promise they will still be fantastic against protoss, if not even better than before because of the viper.

One concern is how fast and often the protoss will climb the terran tech tree. This is something that could detract from the spectator value, if going for terran tech is consistently the best option early (like for a third base). I would think that 600/200 investment would be risky enough that it wouldn't be common for a third, there would be danger of the the replicant SCV getting sniped while constructing the CC. But the main concern is avoiding the match up looking too mirror like. Protoss having a few CCs in the arsenal wouldn't look too bad, the question is how common will terran units be in the late game protoss compositions. The replicant by design will be somewhat minimal in an army, but terran tech once opened will allow a lot more room for terran based compositions. Specifically, I wonder if medivacs will synergize well enough with zealots that teching quickly to starport will be seen often? I don't think it be much of a problem, but testing will tell. I really hope they keep the replicant, I think it's a badass idea.

This was possible in BW, but you only see it in smurf matches and never in pro-play.

True, but BW didn't have Orbital Commands that could drop MULEs. I think it's entirely possible that we'll see the occasional 4th base being a CC. There are several reasons why this is a good play:

A: it allows the protoss to turtle a little more by constructing the CC in his base and then floating it after dropping a mule or two which has always been done on occasion by terran players and was quite popular a couple of months ago (bomber especially did well with it). The ability to enhance your mining from the safety of your base is a very useful assest to the protoss.
B: In the present state of HoTS (likely to change), your replicant can become an SCV without ever leaving your base, unlike the Dark Archon from BW.
C: It gives the protoss an economic advantage. The number of SCVs in a PvT are normally going to be less than the amount of probes for a while due to chrono boost. This is offset by dropping mules. If the protoss can also drop mules from CCs, while still mining with probes that have been chronoboosted out, the terran needs to construct aditional CCs or take out the protoss's CCs.

Maybe... altho I'm not even remotely sure about any of those points so I could be absolutely and completely wrong, plus it's still in alpha so it's entirely up in the air.

On November 07 2011 01:57 neoghaleon55 wrote:
:O
you should go test that out on a custom HotS map

Anyway, I think I would be fine if they didn't allow replicating workers
Something seems so off that every single protoss game ends up with another tech tree as is.