EPTTerran seems the weakest, but it's hard for me to judge because terran is my weakest race in WoL. BCs seem a lot better now though, the speed boost makes them beastly, possibly the best unit in the game.
New HotS Units/Abilities in Blizzcon - Page 375
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
SolidZeal
United States393 Posts
Terran seems the weakest, but it's hard for me to judge because terran is my weakest race in WoL. BCs seem a lot better now though, the speed boost makes them beastly, possibly the best unit in the game. | ||
|
neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
Everyone was clammoring how OP the shredder was, honeslty I dont think it's that bad. You can spam swarm hosts to kill off shredders pretty easily (from custom game experience) As a zerg player, my biggest concern is actually the viper. The whole scorpion hook is WAY OP. Consider that starcraft is a game about position and engagements. The viper's hook completely negate things as army positions, terrain usage and formations. Completely wrecks everything.... | ||
|
Exarian
Poland58 Posts
- army is immoblilized - attack range is reduced to 1 (so even mutalisk/roach has huge range advantage) - abilities are disabled (no feedback, no EMP, no Storm - you cannot answer) - army take damage over time. These two abilities combined are two-click wonder completely disabling every ground army toss/terran can build, something like AoE lockdown doing damage over time... OP as hell. And I know using spells require skills - but casting 2 long-ranged spells at the same point is easy to task even in golden league - and once you do this simple task, enemy can do simply NOTHING, even if he has over 9000 DPS - because he cannot control his army at all (no focus fire, no moving, no abilities...) There is also no good counter to this strategy, excluding rushing to fast air units and hoping for no good Zerg anti-air answer. Spreading will help in nothing, since Zerg is able to catch each of smaller battlegroups with his much faster forces and kill it one-by one. | ||
|
SolidZeal
United States393 Posts
As for terran, well ghost will be required earlier in the matchup and tanks can zone out infestors. I think TT1 was right when he said the game was getting more caster focused, especially for protoss, but I disagree with him that it's a bad thing. I think the new casters will add enormous depth to the skill ceiling and the better caster micro will win. But i think you can still avoid casters and still be very strong. Well, with the exception noted above. If zerg gets heavy viper/festor and you don't have an anti caster to counter it, you're fooked. | ||
|
Exarian
Poland58 Posts
I think the answer to fungal/blinding cloud for protoss is templar/replicated infestor As far as I remember Fungal outrange Feedback. On top of that, even if feedback is answer, you are still in disadvantage. If Zerg fail to cast FG+BC, he will loose 2 casters. If Toss fail casting Feedback before FG+BC, Toss will loose entire army doing minimal-to-none damage in return. It is low risk - high reward situation to Zerg. And once BC is casted, are Toss casters in area are disabled. And even if it is mostly caster fight, it is not balanced because it is extremely Zerg-favoring. As for terran, well ghost will be required earlier in the matchup and tanks can zone out infestors. I think TT1 was right when he said the game was getting more caster focused, especially for protoss, but I disagree with him that it's a bad thing. I think the new casters will add enormous depth to the skill ceiling and the better caster micro will win. But i think you can still avoid casters and still be very strong. Well, with the exception noted above. If zerg gets heavy viper/festor and you don't have an anti caster to counter it, you're fooked. Ghost is only way to get minimal chances against this combo. But EMP has big disadvanatge to Feedback in this type of engagement (AoE is useless, since Zerg will send Vipers and Infestors one-by-one) - it do no damage to caster. So it is another low-risk high-reward situation to Zerg. If Zerg fail, he will have 1-2 casters with no energy. If terran fail, he will loose entire army doing minimal-to-none damage in return. Also, EMP is disabling casters, but BC is disabling casters too... I seriously afraid BC+FG combo will be easy-to-achieve easy-to-do combo completely disabling opponent with no cost-effective counter (or counter as easy to use and as rewarding as FG+BC is going to be) | ||
|
JOJOsc2news
3000 Posts
The replicant for example is a unit that I believe will not survive the beta, simply because it requires too many "but's". + Show Spoiler + The replicant can replicate any enemy unit BUT massive. You might have to add: BUT workers (because you can easily turn it into an SCV, build a CC, supply depot, barracks and then turn it into an OC. Now just imagine a Z or P with an OC. Not gonna happen. People also suggested that it might to be nerfed so it doesn't give you a fully upgraded replicated unit. Removing the fact that the unit it replicates will be fully upgraded (e.g. Banshee cloak, Siege Mode etc.) will make it quite useless. The suggested cost for the unit is 200/200 and I am not sure if an un-upgraded siege tank would be worth that money and the risk of losing the replicant before it can actually do anything is there as well. This unit is too complicated to balance. Won't make it in my opinion. I think the chances of the Shredder to make it into the actual expansion are near to nothing. I really hope they remodel the Warhound. That thing looks awkward. The Viper seems to be very strong and I believe it will be changed quite a bit as well as it seems to be quite easy to transition from a lot of early aggression with cheap units into this deadly spell caster (Viper, Infestor) / cheap damage dealers (Roaches e.g.) army composition. The combination of being able to reposition enemy units AND stun enemy units at the same time as well as reducing their range to melee seems unbelievably strong. (Maybe a cool down or really high cost for these abilities and spells might balance that but that would make them quite useless for a while) Just some thoughts. Please comment. Jojo | ||
|
Jumonji
France60 Posts
| ||
|
JOJOsc2news
3000 Posts
Easy to achieve? Like 150 gas for infestor and 200 for viper , man please play zerg and see how hard it it is to achieve such compo Zerg do that kind of play a lot of the time. Mineral heavy play at the beginning, then adding on gas and saving up a lot of gas for e.g. Mutalisks or Broodlords. This compliments exactly this playstyle and allows powerful transitions I think. | ||
|
Exarian
Poland58 Posts
Easy to achieve? Like 150 gas for infestor and 200 for viper , man please play zerg and see how hard it it is to achieve such compo 350g for total lockdown on enemy deathball allowing you to kill it with ZERO casualties too expensive? No, for everything this combo is able to do, it is EXTREMELY CHEAP. There is no other composition in this game allowing you to completely wipe-out enemy army no matter of enemy skills (since enemy cannot control his army...) for 350g... Whatever it is, it is not balanced. And I am Zerg player. | ||
|
JOJOsc2news
3000 Posts
350g for total lockdown on enemy deathball allowing you to kill it with ZERO casualties too expensive? No, for everything this combo is able to do, it is EXTREMELY CHEAP. There is no other composition in this game allowing you to completely wipe-out enemy army no matter of enemy skills (since enemy cannot control his army...) for 350g... Whatever it is, it is not balanced. And I am Zerg player. I agree. Bear in mind that you can add on cheap mineral heavy units do increase the damage even more. | ||
|
FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On November 18 2011 19:15 neoghaleon55 wrote: If everything stays as is, I think Terran got the short straw. Everyone was clammoring how OP the shredder was, honeslty I dont think it's that bad. You can spam swarm hosts to kill off shredders pretty easily (from custom game experience) As a zerg player, my biggest concern is actually the viper. The whole scorpion hook is WAY OP. Consider that starcraft is a game about position and engagements. The viper's hook completely negate things as army positions, terrain usage and formations. Completely wrecks everything.... bw was even more about positioning (atleast the advantage was higher)and they had far worse position breaker spells, then a hook. Especially if its to good it will become a range 6 or 7 spell, like heat seeker Missile (useless if others casters are around). I like the terran changes, but you have to use workers along your army even more in hots ^.^ . (where koreans fail and goody succeeds when going mech, he always has workers tag along ). Unless you go old school bio that is. My only problem with terran is that i miss the moment where you have to switch to gas only workers in the late game, so you can have so much army supply that you can be save against runbies while sending out enough to not get overrun. Anyway i wouldn't judge how HotS will be from a not even alpha status version from the upcoming Mod Heart of the swarm (no expansions, expansions don't remove something :3 ). Even the beta will look severely different from what was presented at blizzcon. | ||
|
Exarian
Poland58 Posts
I agree. Bear in mind that you can add on cheap mineral heavy units do increase the damage even more. On top of that if Zerg player do FG+BC combo without mistakes, most of his army will stay untouched. Biggest balance problem with Fungal Grow/Blinding Cloud combo is complete negation of enemy micro on top of total army lockdown. Once Zerg cast these spells on top of your army (and it is easy task past Golden League), you can basically do nothing. Against EMP/Storm you can at least reposition/retreat units or engage enemy with casualties. Against BC+FG you can do nothing, you cannot retreat, you cannot reposition, you cannot use abilities, you cannot even return fire... you are forced to sit and wait for your nemesis. Basically BC+FG combo is "I WIN!" button in every army vs army engagement and only counter is not allowing enemy to use it (and you cannot make even single missclick)... Isn't it little too many for T2 combo costing just 350g + some minerals? | ||
|
ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On November 18 2011 23:56 Exarian wrote: On top of that if Zerg player do FG+BC combo without mistakes, most of his army will stay untouched. Biggest balance problem with Fungal Grow/Blinding Cloud combo is complete negation of enemy micro on top of total army lockdown. Once Zerg cast these spells on top of your army (and it is easy task past Golden League), you can basically do nothing. Against EMP/Storm you can at least reposition/retreat units or engage enemy with casualties. Against BC+FG you can do nothing, you cannot retreat, you cannot reposition, you cannot use abilities, you cannot even return fire... you are forced to sit and wait for your nemesis. Basically BC+FG combo is "I WIN!" button in every army vs army engagement and only counter is not allowing enemy to use it (and you cannot make even single missclick)... Isn't it little too many for T2 combo costing just 350g + some minerals? This argument is so pointless...there isn't a balance problem because the game is still in its Alpha stages and will be changed approximately 8347509827 times before release. If it's as overpowered as you think it is, it won't even make it into the beta. I'm not sure why you would get your panties in a twist about it. | ||
|
Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On November 19 2011 00:51 ZasZ. wrote: This argument is so pointless...there isn't a balance problem because the game is still in its Alpha stages and will be changed approximately 8347509827 times before release. If it's as overpowered as you think it is, it won't even make it into the beta. I'm not sure why you would get your panties in a twist about it. Because it's a design issue, not a balance issue. Obviously they could still balance the races even with blinding cloud and fungal growth in the game, but only by either nerfing zerg units so that even if they get to fight at melee range, they can still lose, or making infestors and vipers so weak you won't really be able to get them. I'd rather have the viper and infestor not suddenly triple in power the moment those two join forces, since I don't think such synergy for caster units is good for the game: it promotes death ball fights and 'crafted' unit compositions. | ||
|
MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On November 18 2011 22:28 Exarian wrote: Fungal Grow + Blinding Cloud combo is going to be OP as hell. If cast is on enemy army: - army is immoblilized - attack range is reduced to 1 (so even mutalisk/roach has huge range advantage) - abilities are disabled (no feedback, no EMP, no Storm - you cannot answer) - army take damage over time. These two abilities combined are two-click wonder completely disabling every ground army toss/terran can build, something like AoE lockdown doing damage over time... OP as hell. And I know using spells require skills - but casting 2 long-ranged spells at the same point is easy to task even in golden league - and once you do this simple task, enemy can do simply NOTHING, even if he has over 9000 DPS - because he cannot control his army at all (no focus fire, no moving, no abilities...) There is also no good counter to this strategy, excluding rushing to fast air units and hoping for no good Zerg anti-air answer. Spreading will help in nothing, since Zerg is able to catch each of smaller battlegroups with his much faster forces and kill it one-by one. Just look at WoL, if you have enough gas you can chain fungal and then -army is immobilized -army takes damage over time -everything dies It's basically a "I win button", right? Except it doesn't work that way, it has limited area and range, and costs a lot of gas. It's pure theorycraft and none of what you say is practical. | ||
|
BadgerBadger8264
Netherlands409 Posts
Just look at WoL, if you have enough gas you can chain fungal and then -army is immobilized -army takes damage over time -everything dies It's basically a "I win button", right? Except it doesn't work that way, it has limited area and range, and costs a lot of gas. It's pure theorycraft and none of what you say is practical. The reason limited range is an issue at all is because units can fire and easily kill off the infestors. In come dark swarm, now the only drawback is that it costs a lot of energy to kill entire armies, which really shouldn't be the only drawback to such a ridiculously powerful move. Theorycraft aside, you can actually test it, and it is really strong even with bad micro/unit management; it will get altered heavily before release, that's for sure. | ||
|
RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On November 19 2011 01:03 MilesTeg wrote: Just look at WoL, if you have enough gas you can chain fungal and then -army is immobilized -army takes damage over time -everything dies It's basically a "I win button", right? Except it doesn't work that way, it has limited area and range, and costs a lot of gas. It's pure theorycraft and none of what you say is practical. Why isn't it practical when zergs can afford both brood lords and infestors just fine in the late game? | ||
|
Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
| ||
|
Exarian
Poland58 Posts
Just look at WoL, if you have enough gas you can chain fungal and then -army is immobilized -army takes damage over time -everything dies It's basically a "I win button", right? Except it doesn't work that way, it has limited area and range, and costs a lot of gas. It's pure theorycraft and none of what you say is practical. You can still use abilities and your army is still returning fire. If you manage your forces well, you can still win this engagement. On top of that if enemy use pure FG, he need TONS of infestors and it cost tons of gas. FG+BC combo cost just 350g in units and enemy can DO NOTHING. He cannot move units, focus fire, use spells - and is still taking damage over time. Whatever ranged (incuding mutalisk and roach) attack enemy force, it take free hits for entire spells duration. There is no need of making more then one infestor + one viper per time - unless enemy deathball is too large (but it doesn't matter, because your casters cost at this stage of game will be negligible compared to cost of entire enemy army). Casting this combo will give you window of lockdown long enough to kill entire enemy forces before timers expire (if not - spells cost only 75e, so you can use them once again...). And enemy CAN DO NOTHING, even if he has perfect APS ratio and excellent micro skills - because he cannot control his disabled units. Only one viable counter is not letting enemy to get Vipers/Infestors or at least not letting him to cast these spells... Nearly impossible, as it is available at Lair Tech and Zerg KNOW how effective it is. Because it's a design issue, not a balance issue. Obviously they could still balance the races even with blinding cloud and fungal growth in the game, but only by either nerfing zerg units so that even if they get to fight at melee range, they can still lose, or making infestors and vipers so weak you won't really be able to get them. I'd rather have the viper and infestor not suddenly triple in power the moment those two join forces, since I don't think such synergy for caster units is good for the game: it promotes death ball fights and 'crafted' unit compositions. Exactly. Blizzard will not allow Zerg to get easy wins, so Zerg units will be weakened to make this matchup possible to win for T and P. It mean Zerg will either use FG/BC nearly every game, or will be doomed. Conclusion is simple - FG and BC need nerfs, FG cannot stay in its WoL form and BC cannot be as strong as we have seen in HoTS preview, because combo of these relatively too strong spells is Uber OP. | ||
|
sagefreke
United States241 Posts
On November 18 2011 23:56 Exarian wrote: On top of that if Zerg player do FG+BC combo without mistakes, most of his army will stay untouched. Biggest balance problem with Fungal Grow/Blinding Cloud combo is complete negation of enemy micro on top of total army lockdown. Once Zerg cast these spells on top of your army (and it is easy task past Golden League), you can basically do nothing. Against EMP/Storm you can at least reposition/retreat units or engage enemy with casualties. Against BC+FG you can do nothing, you cannot retreat, you cannot reposition, you cannot use abilities, you cannot even return fire... you are forced to sit and wait for your nemesis. Basically BC+FG combo is "I WIN!" button in every army vs army engagement and only counter is not allowing enemy to use it (and you cannot make even single missclick)... Isn't it little too many for T2 combo costing just 350g + some minerals? You mean you can't just ball up all your units on control group 1 anymore but you'll have to spread your army? How horrifying! | ||
| ||
