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On November 19 2011 07:28 sagefreke wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2011 23:56 Exarian wrote:I agree. Bear in mind that you can add on cheap mineral heavy units do increase the damage even more. On top of that if Zerg player do FG+BC combo without mistakes, most of his army will stay untouched. Biggest balance problem with Fungal Grow/Blinding Cloud combo is complete negation of enemy micro on top of total army lockdown. Once Zerg cast these spells on top of your army (and it is easy task past Golden League), you can basically do nothing. Against EMP/Storm you can at least reposition/retreat units or engage enemy with casualties. Against BC+FG you can do nothing, you cannot retreat, you cannot reposition, you cannot use abilities, you cannot even return fire... you are forced to sit and wait for your nemesis. Basically BC+FG combo is "I WIN!" button in every army vs army engagement and only counter is not allowing enemy to use it (and you cannot make even single missclick)... Isn't it little too many for T2 combo costing just 350g + some minerals? You mean you can't just ball up all your units on control group 1 anymore but you'll have to spread your army? How horrifying!
And no one can keep their army spread 100% of the time while moving. There's a difference between splitting against banelings or a few fungals and splitting against an insta win combo of death which will be FG + BC.
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That's funny because I don't see the difference.
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On November 19 2011 07:36 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 07:28 sagefreke wrote:On November 18 2011 23:56 Exarian wrote:I agree. Bear in mind that you can add on cheap mineral heavy units do increase the damage even more. On top of that if Zerg player do FG+BC combo without mistakes, most of his army will stay untouched. Biggest balance problem with Fungal Grow/Blinding Cloud combo is complete negation of enemy micro on top of total army lockdown. Once Zerg cast these spells on top of your army (and it is easy task past Golden League), you can basically do nothing. Against EMP/Storm you can at least reposition/retreat units or engage enemy with casualties. Against BC+FG you can do nothing, you cannot retreat, you cannot reposition, you cannot use abilities, you cannot even return fire... you are forced to sit and wait for your nemesis. Basically BC+FG combo is "I WIN!" button in every army vs army engagement and only counter is not allowing enemy to use it (and you cannot make even single missclick)... Isn't it little too many for T2 combo costing just 350g + some minerals? You mean you can't just ball up all your units on control group 1 anymore but you'll have to spread your army? How horrifying! And no one can keep their army spread 100% of the time while moving. There's a difference between splitting against banelings or a few fungals and splitting against an insta win combo of death which will be FG + BC.
I think in the future, keeping your army spread while moving will be the equivalent of moving your entire army together on multiple control groups in brood war.
Something very hard to do that rewards skill.
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United States717 Posts
I don't see the difference either.
Another thing to think about: FG + BC means that you're giving up doing FG + FG. In zvt FG + FG on marines = instant death. FG + BC = marines still tanking damage while being healed by medivacs.
I can see in some situations FG + BC > FG + FG, but not all. It's actually a good thing to have more resource tension in spell casters.
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You mean you can't just ball up all your units on control group 1 anymore but you'll have to spread your army? How horrifying!
What Zerg do:
1. Find where enemy army is
2. cast FG and BC on enemy army
3. A-move Roaches/Hydras/Mutas/anything you have
If everything works: Enemy army is lost, your army have minimal (or none) casualties
If you fail: either you lost 350g (viper+Infestor), or some your casters have no energy
What Terran/Toss must do:
1 Spread army
2 Keep each of control groups close enough to each other to be able to support them against a-moving zerg army
3 Scout to notice every single infestor/viper in range (one can fly, other one is invisible underground...)
4 Get High Templar/Ghost and master using them.
5 Feedback/EPM every Viper/Infestor in range BEFORE them use their "I Win!" combo. You cannot missclick. Never.
If everything works: Congrats, you just avoided loosing game to 350g 2-units combo, but enemy still have it's army and can rebuild Infestors/Vipers
If you fail and allow enemy to cast these two spells at once: GG
FG+BC is minimal risk - huge reward strategy with no real weaknesses. It is available at Tier 2, and once Zerg get single Viper and single Infestor there is basically nothing able to stop it at same skills level as T/P is. Casting 2 spells at nearly same time is extremely easy to do even at Golden League, and after it happen, T/P can do NOTHING - it's like AoE lockdown (+damage over time) completely disabling affected units (no movement, no attack, no abilities...). On top of that, If you successfully feedback/EMP Infestors/Vipers, zerg lost basically nothing and can rebuild this combo easily (350g for huge chance for instant win is not much).
Of course BC work on Ground units only (FG work on Air too) - so Air-based armies are in better situation. Unfortunatelly neither Terran nor Toss has significant Airfleet at this tier of the game. T/P basically must rush to T3 to get airforces strong enough to make using FG/BC weaker - and this kind of technlogical rush mean T and P will be extremely vulnerable to Zerg early aggression and will probably give zerg total map control. And we are still talking of 350g T2 combo of two spells... Basically entire game against Zerg will be focused on not letting Zerg to use their new "I Win" button.
There is also no way of balancing these spells, because this combo is broken design wise. These spells will be either useless alone (bacause of massive nerfs), or Zerg units will be nerfed to level making use of "I Win" button justified. IMO it is terrible concept, so best option is redesigning both spells and limiting their potential (example: FG slow units instead of immobilizing them, BC no longer disable abilities etc.). I hope blizz is not going to try to balance these spells without making design changes, because most of HotS beta patches will be focused on this combo.
Another thing to think about: FG + BC means that you're giving up doing FG + FG. In zvt FG + FG on marines = instant death. FG + BC = marines still tanking damage while being healed by medivacs.
But FG+BC allow your army to make hits without taking return fire. Group of roaches/Hydras will do much more DPS then another FG, marines tanking abilities are negligible since your entire bioball will take free hits from entire Zerg army for few seconds, and whatever survive this armageddon, it will be dead second after spells timer expires.
On top of that casting two spells before engagement then A-moving your unattackable army is MUCH easier to do then casting two fungals one-by-one during engagement, when your army take return-fire and is vulnerable to spells and abilities.
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wow getting 2 spell casters at t2 at the same time. Now if you manage that your opponent must have forgotten to start building workers. And its not like your units can run into the cloud, well lings can.
The fun thing is low leagues can overrun someone going for those 2 casters. And upper leagues can easily micro against it. And there are enough things that can keep the zerg away from attacking the fungaled units.
hehe this combo reminds me of disruption web + reaver or mealstrom + storm. It could really mess up your day, but you had to be really ahead to get that sort of stuff together.
That being said its nothing to worry about really, especially a move don't even work in pre alpha status  .
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On November 19 2011 08:54 FeyFey wrote:
wow getting 2 spell casters at t2 at the same time.
Maybe Im missing something here. But how is getting a Infestor and a Viper any harder than getting 2 Infestors?
Vipers dont require any tech (beside Lair) or did I miss anything?
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On November 19 2011 07:36 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2011 07:28 sagefreke wrote:On November 18 2011 23:56 Exarian wrote:I agree. Bear in mind that you can add on cheap mineral heavy units do increase the damage even more. On top of that if Zerg player do FG+BC combo without mistakes, most of his army will stay untouched. Biggest balance problem with Fungal Grow/Blinding Cloud combo is complete negation of enemy micro on top of total army lockdown. Once Zerg cast these spells on top of your army (and it is easy task past Golden League), you can basically do nothing. Against EMP/Storm you can at least reposition/retreat units or engage enemy with casualties. Against BC+FG you can do nothing, you cannot retreat, you cannot reposition, you cannot use abilities, you cannot even return fire... you are forced to sit and wait for your nemesis. Basically BC+FG combo is "I WIN!" button in every army vs army engagement and only counter is not allowing enemy to use it (and you cannot make even single missclick)... Isn't it little too many for T2 combo costing just 350g + some minerals? You mean you can't just ball up all your units on control group 1 anymore but you'll have to spread your army? How horrifying! And no one can keep their army spread 100% of the time while moving. There's a difference between splitting against banelings or a few fungals and splitting against an insta win combo of death which will be FG + BC.
why not? you're saying you can't use at least 5 hotkeys for one army?
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Im a Zerg but moving burrowed banelings are the most broken thing I have ever heard of
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The problem with BC that I saw was that ranged units now run forward to attack like melee units due to the reduced range. Therefore getting owned in the face by banelings and roaches.
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If people don't see 20 things on the ground having huge brown ripples moving towards them.....They deserve to lose their army @_@
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On November 20 2011 11:22 ToguRo wrote:
Im a Zerg but moving burrowed banelings are the most broken thing I have ever heard of
Pfft, if they move as slowly as burrowed roaches, it won't make much of a difference. Difference is you'll be able to adjust your baneling mines as he passes over them. Nothing broken about that (unless you think burrowed roaches are broken).
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What's with the idiots ranting about shredders? Don't you know that terrans have the worst win ratio currently? For fuck's sake how many times do we have to say this, shredder damage do not stack. Terrans had been nerf since day 1 is it not enough for you zerg whiners?
For Protoss, what's the point of replacing carrier with tempest? Anti-air splash damage dealer is what phoenix are. Replicants are a horrible unit, you can just fast tech and then replicate enemy workers, Bliz should at least restrict them from copying workers. Oracles are okay, and thought Bliz was gonna give them some harrass units that actually do AoE damage.
The only unit I concern about for Zerg is the Viper, believe or not, I can already see them as the most overpowered unit coming to HotS. Blind clouding + fungal growth + baneling burst is almost unstopable. Just moving, burrowed baneling seem deadly enough for the terrans, yet another reason why Shredder should remain. Terrans had the weakest detection in straight up battle, all you need to do is to snipe of the Raven, burrowed moving baneling would be fucking deadly against Terrans as far as I can tell. Yes, Terrans will have the weakest detection, Viper can make any Zerg unit a detector, toss has a fast moving, cheap observor, Terrans have an expensive, visible Raven, if the Zerg can snipe off the Raven and move his burrowed baneling in, it's a GG for Terrans.
Bronze league Zerg whiners can go kill themselves, they had no item how much they were buffed.
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^^ I'm a relative noob here at team liquid... but you sir are just plain wrong, Terran has the WEAKEST detection? The viper gets 1 detector per viper!!! Have 3 bases? Build 3 vipers? and... scans still detect in HoTS right? Then Terran shouldn't have a problem with detection. I actually feel bad for the Protoss because they kind of got screwed with new units. "Terran has been nerf since day 1 is it not enough for you zerg whiners?" how many Terrans are in code S right now? How many Protoss are in Code S right now? How many Zergs are in Code S right now?
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On November 20 2011 11:49 Pikachu18 wrote:
What's with the idiots ranting about shredders? Don't you know that terrans have the worst win ratio currently? For fuck's sake how many times do we have to say this, shredder damage do not stack. Terrans had been nerf since day 1 is it not enough for you zerg whiners?
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Bronze league Zerg whiners can go kill themselves, they had no item how much they were buffed.
You're retarded. Terran's gotten a ridiculous amount of buff back in the beta because they were too weak in bronze (and still are). Many of the so called nerfs are just reversion of buffs.
As for shredder, it has the same dps as psi storm, attacks both air and ground, and has 11 times area, while having more hp than a siege tank. I personally won't call them op until I actually see them in action proper but people have every rights to complain about them.
And funny you would talk about Zerg being overbuffed. Why don't you go look at the patch history of BC vs BL, or in case of Protoss, DT vs Banshee?
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On November 20 2011 12:01 nanospartan wrote:
^^ I'm a relative noob here at team liquid... but you sir are just plain wrong, Terran has the WEAKEST detection? The viper gets 1 detector per viper!!! Have 3 bases? Build 3 vipers? and... scans still detect in HoTS right? Then Terran shouldn't have a problem with detection. I actually feel bad for the Protoss because they kind of got screwed with new units. "Terran has been nerf since day 1 is it not enough for you zerg whiners?" how many Terrans are in code S right now? How many Protoss are in Code S right now? How many Zergs are in Code S right now?
Let's see, when Viper uses the ocular thing on another unit, do Terrans know which unit is the detector? On the other hand, Raven can be just snipe off easily. Yes, I forgot Orbital Command.
Protoss is basically getting shit over for that patch. Terrans... not much change, shredders are pretty shit, I used them in custom game and it's useless as fuck. Zerg are getting a little imba, you have to accept that, moving burrowed baneling, diving ultras, BC+FG combo, etc. I got owned by a fast-tech Zerg players with tons of gases in less than 15 minutes every single damn game, BC+FG is nearly unstopable, and Bliz needs to do something to it.
I tend to ignore the amount of people participate in the tournament, as I know there are currently more Terran players out there. And yet Terrans have the lowest win rate if I am not wrong.
On November 20 2011 12:04 ppdealer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 11:49 Pikachu18 wrote:
What's with the idiots ranting about shredders? Don't you know that terrans have the worst win ratio currently? For fuck's sake how many times do we have to say this, shredder damage do not stack. Terrans had been nerf since day 1 is it not enough for you zerg whiners?
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Bronze league Zerg whiners can go kill themselves, they had no item how much they were buffed. You're retarded. Terran's gotten a ridiculous amount of buff back in the beta because they were too weak in bronze ( and still are). Many of the so called nerfs are just reversion of buffs. As for shredder, it has the same dps as psi storm, attacks both air and ground, and has 11 times area, while having more hp than a siege tank. I personally won't call them op until I actually see them in action proper but people have every rights to complain about them. And funny you would talk about Zerg being overbuffed. Why don't you go look at the patch history of BC vs BL, or in case of Protoss, DT vs Banshee?
How about you go back and check the history, I stand my point, Terrans were nerfed since day 1. Siege tank damage nerf, reaper render to useless, supply depot needs to build before rax, conc shell nerf, BC air damage nerf, EMP radius cut in half, etc, etc.
Psi Storm and Shredder and entirely different, Psi Storm are spells which you cast it on your opponents, who will run into Shredder radiation field when Shredders are visible. And they can't be add into ball of death can they? Kills your entire mineral line? That's because you are too retarded and didn't watch the mini map, shredder took time to deploy and they can only activate while no friendly units near. And again, their damage do not fucking stack, some people choose not to listen.
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On November 20 2011 12:04 ppdealer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 11:49 Pikachu18 wrote:
What's with the idiots ranting about shredders? Don't you know that terrans have the worst win ratio currently? For fuck's sake how many times do we have to say this, shredder damage do not stack. Terrans had been nerf since day 1 is it not enough for you zerg whiners?
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Bronze league Zerg whiners can go kill themselves, they had no item how much they were buffed. You're retarded. Terran's gotten a ridiculous amount of buff back in the beta because they were too weak in bronze ( and still are). Many of the so called nerfs are just reversion of buffs. As for shredder, it has the same dps as psi storm, attacks both air and ground, and has 11 times area, while having more hp than a siege tank. I personally won't call them op until I actually see them in action proper but people have every rights to complain about them. And funny you would talk about Zerg being overbuffed. Why don't you go look at the patch history of BC vs BL, or in case of Protoss, DT vs Banshee?
You can rant on about the shredder as much as you want. Do you realise it's a stationary unit? It's simply just for map control which believe me, Terran definatly needs it in the T v Z MU.
Now as for the Viper and burrowed banes that can move. A Terran army will literally be get attacked from the bottom, top AND sides now..... kinda like a sphere type attack. Do you really think that sounds balanced? And yes, it's very easy for a Raven to get sniped off when you have Mutas out on the field. Zerg is just getting WAAAY too much in this expo relative to what Protoss and Terran has to deal with it.
The Viper and burrowed moving banes.... it's common sense really, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out this is broken.
I'm not worried too much atm, I'm sure Blizzard is smart enough to not let half of this shit go through the beta.
We are always going to have Terran haters and a continuing mentality of "Huuurrrp Durrrp Terran OP." We aren't in the fucking beta stages anymore, those times are long gone and those players really need to take a good look where Terran is CURRENTLY. Go onto the current Terran streams, A LOT of pro Terrans are experiencing troubles right now... especially in the T v P mu.
Don't you guys think it's a bit sus how TLO has just said "Fuck it, I'm going to main as Zerg now." he has said plenty of times Zerg is an easier race to play then Terran. Other pros have also stated that since the latest patch releases, Protoss has now has 1 up on Terran.
I'm actually very interested in seeing win rates since the patch release. Anyone who wants to cry "Terran OP" is seriously just an idiot who wants to join the bandwagon of beta stages.
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I don't see the point in arguing about units and their abilities when we have no idea what the status of the game will be upon release. Furthermore it took Terran a year to figure out Hellions were the best unit in the game, and these pro's play the game 10 hours a day 6-7 days per week - judging what compositions will end up being the best compositions is unknowable.
Usually its the underestimated, simple units that end up being the best. My money is on the battle hellion. Not right away of course as everyone gets awestruck by the Viper and Replicator - but after game play settles down, 6 months to a year after release, the Battle Hellion may very well be the best unit added in HOTS
A 100 mineral, mass producible, highly effective harass unit capable of melting entire mineral lines AND can be transformed into a 135 HP tanking unit that absorb a lot of enemy fire and does splash damage - L O L.
We'll have to wait and see of course how everything pans out.
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Main problem with Blinding Cloud / Fungal Grow combo is entire broken concept of these two spells. No race should be able to disable entire enemy army for 2 clicks and 350g. BC+FG give zerg no-risk huge-reward tactic allowing them to disable enemy movement , attack, and abilities on top of damage over time - AT ONCE. It works no matter of enemy skills or enemy army composition - ground casters are disabled, ground ranged units cannot fire, nothing can move, everything take damage over time - for just two clicks for 350g and A-move order to rest of army. Only one way of countering this strat is not letting enemy cast his spells - so one missclicked EMP/feedback and it is GG to entire army. What if you successfully killed Viper and Infestor? Well... Zerg just lost 350g...
HOW can anyone call it balanced?
Also please note this simple strategy counter almost everything in game available at their tier:
- Zealot/Colossi/Stalker/Archon/HT/DT including every composition of these units
- Terran Bioballs
- Terran mech
- Terran Biomech
- Entire Terran line of defense
It mean only one viable strat against Zerg in HotS will be magically predicting FG/BC combo and tech-rushing to air... which basically mean giving zerg full map control for free in nearly every game.
Also please imagine BC+FG mixed with:
- banelings
- Mutas cloud
- Hydra/Roach
In other words nearly everything Zerg has at T2 is extemely deadly with BC+FG combo, which is making this combo even more OP. Because this combo is effective no matter of opponent skills (because after casting it enemy can do completely nothing) and enemy army composition (basically every ground army is nearly instantly dead with no chance of either repositioning or returning fire) calling it "Zerg I Win button" is completely justified - especially if we consider how cheap and easy to use it is going to be. Excellent example of no-risk low-skill tactic with huge chance of winning match instantly against even better-skilled enemy (because using it require infinitely lower skills and cost then countering it)...
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EPT
