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On September 20 2011 23:44 spbelky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 23:11 Sbrubbles wrote:On September 20 2011 09:57 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Some of these things are probably already well-known by now, but I will list them for completion's sake:
No More Clipping (Stacking)
The biggest thing to note is all the whole numbers in 1.4. This means that while you can still kill many units with the same number of fungals, you can no longer clip (stack) them. You must let the full duration tick each time, and then re-stack fungal (extraneous damage notwithstanding).
Units you can no longer clip: Stalker, Dark Templar, Observer, MULE, Hellion, Siege Tank
edit: Clipping is defined as when you overwrite the existing damage over time spell with a new one. Fungal does damage over time, and if you cast a new fungal growth before the old one has finished, the first fungal can't do its full damage.
I'm confused, can you explain this change in detail? I really don't understand how this is different from before. If you actually read what you quoted, I don't see how there can be any confusion... But since you clearly need help, I'll try my best. Ok so let's look at one example, and hopefully it will be clear. Stalker. Pre patch took 3.42 fungals to kill, but since you obviously can't cast 0.42 of a fungal, you must cast a 4th fungal to kill the stalker. However, if you were to cast one of your fungals BEFORE the previous fungals duration ran out, you had some leeway. For example, if you were to cast 1 fungal every 3.5 seconds exactly, you would be cutting off 0.5s of the fungal damage (0.5s/4.0s = .125 or 1/8th) so you would only get 7/8ths or .875 of a fungal. Take that .875 and x4, and you get 3.5 fungals worth of damage, enough to kill a stalker. HOWEVER, Post patch, it now takes EXACTLY 4 fungals to kill a stalker. Meaning if you "clip" or "stack" a single fungal, you will require an additional 5th fungal to kill a stalker. Taking the example from above, the 4 fungals that only dealt 3.5 fungals worth of damage would NOT kill the stalker. The OP is saying that all these WHOLE numbers that come up in the new patch mean that you can no longer "stack" or "clip" fungals unless you want to spend an extra fungal. Why is this important? Two main reasons: You now have to be PERFECT to keep a unit permafungaled to death, or else risk having 1) to spend an extra fungal, or 2) the unit escapes outside the fungal range.
Hmm, I see, I thought he meant something had changed aside from the damage.
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Ever heard of rounding? Since you can't cast .75 of a fungal.
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On September 21 2011 04:05 DNA61289 wrote:
Ever heard of rounding? Since you can't cast .75 of a fungal.
All I'm saying is the mechanics remain the same, just the damage has changed. Also, have you ever killed an enemy army with just fungals? You can't think the game in terms of "hits to kill" instead of damage. In fact, I would say analysing "hits to kill" only matter when: 1) You're massing a single unit (not the case with infestors), 2) Focus fire purposes or 3) zealots or roaches against zerglings.
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On September 21 2011 04:05 DNA61289 wrote:
Ever heard of rounding? Since you can't cast .75 of a fungal.
Except players do it all the time. The decimals referring to the number of fungals necessary to kill a unit are fairly important, an earlier poster asked about the difference between 2.1 fungals and 2.9 fungals. Well at 2.1 fungals you need 9 seconds of Fungal Growth to kill a specific unit, this means that you can clip a full 3 seconds off, or you can clip 1.5 seconds early off of both recasts(the gap between the 1st and 2nd, and the gap between the 2nd and 3rd Fungal Growths). When a unit takes 2.9 Fungal Growths to kill it, you know only have a total of .4 seconds to clip off, this means your "overlap" or "clips" can each only be .2 seconds. This means you have to make a conscious decision about whether or not to use a full 4 Fungal Growths vs 3 with extremely precise timing. Knowing that if you miss that extremely precise timing you give the units an opportunity to scatter, or even worse - Blink.
Edit: Clipping or overlapping is even more important in the case of 2.9 Fungal Growths because of how Fungal Growth damage is timed, but I'll let someone else look into the specific numbers there.
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I would always rather get hit by storm than fungal. Just because fungal roots my units. Fungal should not root it should slow them down.
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No More Clipping (Stacking)
The biggest thing to note is all the whole numbers in 1.4. This means that while you can still kill many units with the same number of fungals, you can no longer clip (stack) them. You must let the full duration tick each time, and then re-stack fungal (extraneous damage notwithstanding).
Units you can no longer clip: Stalker, Dark Templar, Observer, MULE, Hellion, Siege Tank
edit: Clipping is defined as when you overwrite the existing damage over time spell with a new one. Fungal does damage over time, and if you cast a new fungal growth before the old one has finished, the first fungal can't do its full damage.
I'm sorry to be a nub but I don't understand this part. Is OP saying that pre-1.4 fungal damage would stack if you cast them on top of each other? I didn't think that was the case.
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On September 21 2011 05:26 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +
No More Clipping (Stacking)
The biggest thing to note is all the whole numbers in 1.4. This means that while you can still kill many units with the same number of fungals, you can no longer clip (stack) them. You must let the full duration tick each time, and then re-stack fungal (extraneous damage notwithstanding).
Units you can no longer clip: Stalker, Dark Templar, Observer, MULE, Hellion, Siege Tank
edit: Clipping is defined as when you overwrite the existing damage over time spell with a new one. Fungal does damage over time, and if you cast a new fungal growth before the old one has finished, the first fungal can't do its full damage.
I'm sorry to be a nub but I don't understand this part. Is OP saying that pre-1.4 fungal damage would stack if you cast them on top of each other? I didn't think that was the case.
I had the same question. Nothing changed from 1 patch to the other, except for the damage.
The OP is just pointing out the fact that units which take a round number of fungals to kill will have to suffer the full duration of the fungal in order to die from said round number of fungals. In other words, a stalker takes now exactly 4 fungals to kill, so if you don't wait out the first fungal's 4 seconds before applying the second fungal, you won't kill him (same for 3rd and 4th fungals).
Before, it took 3.42 fungals to kill a stalker, so if you didn't wait out the full duration of the fungal before throwing another one in there, you could still kill the stalker with just 4 fungals.
The stalker now takes exactly 4 fungals to kill, just as before, but if you cast the second fungal before the first one ends, it will actually take 5 fungals to kill the stalker.
This specific discussion is moot, of course, if there are other units in your army mix aside from the infestor.
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On September 21 2011 05:45 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 05:26 Treemonkeys wrote:
No More Clipping (Stacking)
The biggest thing to note is all the whole numbers in 1.4. This means that while you can still kill many units with the same number of fungals, you can no longer clip (stack) them. You must let the full duration tick each time, and then re-stack fungal (extraneous damage notwithstanding).
Units you can no longer clip: Stalker, Dark Templar, Observer, MULE, Hellion, Siege Tank
edit: Clipping is defined as when you overwrite the existing damage over time spell with a new one. Fungal does damage over time, and if you cast a new fungal growth before the old one has finished, the first fungal can't do its full damage.
I'm sorry to be a nub but I don't understand this part. Is OP saying that pre-1.4 fungal damage would stack if you cast them on top of each other? I didn't think that was the case. I had the same question. Nothing changed from 1 patch to the other, except for the damage. The OP is just pointing out the fact that units which take a round number of fungals to kill will have to suffer the full duration of the fungal in order to die from said round number of fungals. In other words, a stalker takes now exactly 4 fungals to kill, so if you don't wait out the first fungal's 4 seconds before applying the second fungal, you won't kill him (same for 3rd and 4th fungals). Before, it took 3.42 fungals to kill a stalker, so if you didn't wait out the full duration of the fungal before throwing another one in there, you could still kill the stalker with just 4 fungals. The stalker now takes exactly 4 fungals to kill, just as before, but if you cast the second fungal before the first one ends, it will actually take 5 fungals to kill the stalker. This specific discussion is moot, of course, if there are other units in your army mix aside from the infestor.
Well, as a Zerg player I like that change... Fungal should be an addition to your low dps (roach) army, when zerglings simply don't work so well anymore, due to little surface area. (and hydras are just don't do that job very well) It still does that job, but plain killing with fungal is weaker (1fungal more on most units) and takes more skill now!
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I just like this patch the most because I have a bad habit of stimming marines without combat shield, or double stimming combat shielded marines... pre patch 36dmg fungals would be guaranteed death, now I live with 5 hp!
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Archon is 10->12...? Massive != armored
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I honestly think the clipping change is the biggest part of the entire Infestor nerf. Before, FG pretty much meant certain death because you could reset the timer before the first FG was finished. Now you have to time it right every time or else the unit youre trying to chain FG could escape. The damage nerf is definitely notable, but the clipping change makes it so being hit by the first FG isnt auto death anymore
and yet Blizzard decided not to mention it in the patch notes
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These lists do not include Ultralisks(they still take damage) and all 3 workers
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I've searched the thread and it doesn't seem as if there is much discussion on this, but I think it's pretty huge that banelings don't get 1 shot anymore by FG. Will this open up room for more baneling centric styles?
On September 22 2011 07:39 Supamang wrote:
I honestly think the clipping change is the biggest part of the entire Infestor nerf. Before, FG pretty much meant certain death because you could reset the timer before the first FG was finished. Now you have to time it right every time or else the unit youre trying to chain FG could escape. The damage nerf is definitely notable, but the clipping change makes it so being hit by the first FG isnt auto death anymore
and yet Blizzard decided not to mention it in the patch notes
What are you talking about O.o? There has been no explicit change to clipping. Now you just have to time your fungals better. It's still auto death if they have a lot of infestors.
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the clipping thing is sure a big thing. increased the skill level for zergs now :D
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Lovin the no clipping  . Fungal is a lot more forgiving now that zergs have to time their fungals
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On September 22 2011 08:22 Xanbatou wrote:I've searched the thread and it doesn't seem as if there is much discussion on this, but I think it's pretty huge that banelings don't get 1 shot anymore by FG. Will this open up room for more baneling centric styles? Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 07:39 Supamang wrote:
I honestly think the clipping change is the biggest part of the entire Infestor nerf. Before, FG pretty much meant certain death because you could reset the timer before the first FG was finished. Now you have to time it right every time or else the unit youre trying to chain FG could escape. The damage nerf is definitely notable, but the clipping change makes it so being hit by the first FG isnt auto death anymore
and yet Blizzard decided not to mention it in the patch notes What are you talking about O.o? There has been no explicit change to clipping. Now you just have to time your fungals better. It's still auto death if they have a lot of infestors.
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Maybe I read it wrong but I thought that they changed the FG mechanics so that we cant FG units that are already affected by FG. Before 1.4 you could chain fungal really easily by just counting to 3 instead of 4 to fungal again. This was really good vs blink stalks because if the protoss is spamming blink then the stalks would usually blink out if you didnt overlap the FGs slightly.
Now that you have to wait until the 4 seconds are up before reapplying FG, blink stalks have a much better chance to escape, mutas can unclump and require more FGs to catch the whole group, etc.
Maybe Im wrong but I feel that its a significant change. If this isnt whats happening then ignore my post.
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The way I see it: Fungal works exactly as before but with less damage per seconds.
Meaning, in terms of the difference between 3.42 and 4 fungals to kill a stalker, that:
The energy cost and number of fungals remain the same.
The least possible time required to kill a stalker has changed from 3*4 + 0.42*4 or 13.68 secs to 4*4 = 16 seconds.
If you want to kill the stalker as fast as possible (and prevent it from blinking), you have to put down 4 nonoverlapping fungals at exact 4 seconds intervals. Before, due to overkill, you did not need to be as precise because you had 0.56*4 seconds to play with in overlapping the fungals.
If you are uncertain of your timing skills, and want to make sure that the stalker goes down in as few fungals as possible, be sure to wait 4 secs between each application of fungal. This guarantees that the stalker dies. It might blink away or take longer to kill, but you will not waste a fifth fungal.
If you have enough infestor energy that the fifth fungal doesn't matter, this change might work in your favor since you can make the fungals overlap much more. (having 4 seconds of slack instead of 2) which might free up time for macroing etc. But as noted it will take (_at least_) five fungals to kill a stalker with overlapping fungals.
Please tell me if you notice anything wrong in my reasoning.
PS Another way of putting it: Before, if you used overlapping fungals, it took _at least_ 4 fungals. Now, if you use overlapping fungals, it takes _at least_ 5. But if you don't overlap the fungals, it still takes only 4 (and if you want to prevent blink or kill as fast as possible, you have to chain them perfectly)
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On September 22 2011 18:49 straycat wrote:
The way I see it: Fungal works exactly as before but with less damage per seconds.
Meaning, in terms of the difference between 3.42 and 4 fungals to kill a stalker, that:
The energy cost and number of fungals remain the same.
The least possible time required to kill a stalker has changed from 3*4 + 0.42*4 or 13.68 secs to 4*4 = 16 seconds.
If you want to kill the stalker as fast as possible (and prevent it from blinking), you have to put down 4 nonoverlapping fungals at exact 4 seconds intervals. Before, due to overkill, you did not need to be as precise because you had 0.56*4 seconds to play with in overlapping the fungals.
If you are uncertain of your timing skills, and want to make sure that the stalker goes down in as few fungals as possible, be sure to wait 4 secs between each application of fungal. This guarantees that the stalker dies. It might blink away or take longer to kill, but you will not waste a fifth fungal.
If you have enough infestor energy that the fifth fungal doesn't matter, this change might work in your favor since you can make the fungals overlap much more. (having 4 seconds of slack instead of 2) which might free up time for macroing etc. But as noted it will take (_at least_) five fungals to kill a stalker with overlapping fungals.
Please tell me if you notice anything wrong in my reasoning.
PS Another way of putting it: Before, if you used overlapping fungals, it took _at least_ 4 fungals. Now, if you use overlapping fungals, it takes _at least_ 5. But if you don't overlap the fungals, it still takes only 4 (and if you want to prevent blink or kill as fast as possible, you have to chain them perfectly)
I guess as Protoss you can queue a blink command on stalkers, which means it becomes realisticly impossible, to kill stalkers with 4 fungals (noone will ever be that perfect - at least as long as the damage is dealt kind of continuos, which Im not so sure off)
Bio with Medivacs will no withstand way longer against fungals. F.e: double fungal will only kill marines if done very precisely, and every medivac on autoheal will save one marine.
Also I'm experimenting with more hydra use in ZvZ right now - and get infestor later on -, because hydras now will shoot an extra 2times now, when being fungaled to death, and if they are only 2times fungaled, they will need 2 extra roach shots now to die, instead of one. (and a hydraliks attacks ~2.5times in the same time a roach attacks)
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On September 22 2011 19:46 Big J wrote:
I guess as Protoss you can queue a blink command on stalkers, which means it becomes realisticly impossible, to kill stalkers with 4 fungals (noone will ever be that perfect - at least as long as the damage is dealt kind of continuos, which Im not so sure off)
Bio with Medivacs will no withstand way longer against fungals. F.e: double fungal will only kill marines if done very precisely, and every medivac on autoheal will save one marine.
Also I'm experimenting with more hydra use in ZvZ right now - and get infestor later on -, because hydras now will shoot an extra 2times now, when being fungaled to death, and if they are only 2times fungaled, they will need 2 extra roach shots now to die, instead of one. (and a hydraliks attacks ~2.5times in the same time a roach attacks)
Hmm yes you can still kill them with 4 fungals (unless shield regeneration plays a part somehow, I havent considered that), but as you mention it will in practice probably not be possible to pin them down with 4 fungals* . But tbh, in that respect nothing much has changed. I mean, it wasn't very much easier to prevent blink AND killing stuff with as few fungals as possible before either - sure, your fungals could overlap 2 seconds over a total duration of about 13 seconds, but in practice I dont know if anyone is as good as to have super control over either total overlap time or back to back fungalling.
*esp not if you can command queue blink... but can you really do that to the desired effect in that situation? I would think that the command gets into the queu, is evaluated, found not to be working (due to fungal) and then it's over. maybe if you spam queue?
Edit: Interesting points on the hydras, I would love it if it is that way since the roach infestor play is kind of... boring.
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hahahahah this is going to be so funny with my double medivac drop being able to keep every marine alive under dual fungals :D
basically it will take 3 fungals to kill marines that are supported by medivacs
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EPT
