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1.4 Fungal Growth Unit Damage Chart
Sorry if this is a repost, but I looked around and didn't see a post showing these numbers. So, since the patch just went live I thought I would post this:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LWcdL.png)
units where the critical number of fungals did not change are not listed, unless they can't be clipped
1.3 Fungal - 36 (46.8 v armored)
1.4 Fungal - 30 (40 v armored)
Some of these things are probably already well-known by now, but I will list them for completion's sake:
No More Clipping (Overlapping)
The biggest thing to note is all the whole numbers in 1.4. This means that while you can still kill many units with the same number of fungals, you can no longer clip (overlap) them. You must let the full duration tick each time, and then re-stack fungal (extraneous damage notwithstanding). It's important to note that you can still clip fungals on any unit in the game, but doing so against these units means you now require an extra fungal to kill them.
Units you can no longer clip: Stalker, Dark Templar, Observer, MULE, Hellion, Siege Tank
edit: Clipping is defined as when you overwrite the existing damage over time spell with a new one. Fungal does damage over time, and if you cast a new fungal growth before the old one has finished, the first fungal can't do its full damage.
Blink Stalkers (thanks to RisingTide for mentioning this)
Because you can no longer clip Stalkers with 4 fungals and must be precise, zerg players must now make the decision whether to continue to clip versus Blink Stalkers and use a 5th fungal to kill them, or allow them the opportunity to blink away if the protoss player is spamming the blink command (extraneous damage notwithstanding).
Warp Prism
The new changes to both warp prism and fungal growth make for the biggest change in fungal requirement. In 1.3 it took only three fungals to kill a warp prism, while the new patch requires five.
ZvZ
Another notable change to fungal in 1.4 is in ZvZ. Banelings and Broodlings could be killed in a single fungal. However, they now require two fungals (or other unit damage).
Further, while Infestors could be double fungaled, they now require three fungals.
Essentially, nearly every zerg unit requires an extra fungal to kill except the roach. This leaves roach wars almost unchanged, but nerfs infestors slightly vs everything else (except zerglings) in zvz.
Closing Comments
At least in my opinion, while on its face it doesn't seem that fungal growth has been affected all that much, I do believe it now requires greater skill to use equally, as you must use greater care with stacking fungal growth. The inability to clip many units and kill them solely with fungal growth will add a risk of those units being able to flee, and require more attention and better timing by zerg players. I think players highly skilled with Infestors will find no notable difference in most situations, regardless of the new inability to clip many units. Those whose sense of timing fungals is not very good will now need to learn this skill.
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Ty for the list. I'm sure people will point out missing units. For example marine / combat shield marine, workers, medivac, battle cruiser, HT, zealot, sentry, reaper, hydra.
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The main part where fungal gets nerfed is in combination with your attacking units, i.e fungaling a protoss army while you have roaches or lings hitting them will still make the army die slower because you will need additional ling/roach hits to kill a unit to compensate for the lowered fungal damage.
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On September 20 2011 09:57 michaelhasanalias wrote:
ZvZ
Another notable change to fungal in 1.4 is in ZvZ. Zerglings, Banelings and Broodlings could be killed in a single fungal. However, they now require two fungals (or other unit damage).
Further, while Infestors could be double fungaled, they now require three fungals.
Essentially, nearly every zerg unit requires an extra fungal to kill except the roach. This leaves roach wars almost unchanged, but nerfs infestors slightly vs everything else in zvz.
just wanted to note that zerglings always needed 2 fungals, they'd survive a fungal with 1 health
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On September 20 2011 10:03 stanik wrote:
Ty for the list. I'm sure people will point out missing units. For example marine / combat shield marine, workers, medivac, battle cruiser, HT, zealot, sentry, reaper, hydra.
That's an interesting point. I think, however (and I may be wrong) that he was only counting those units against which the critical number of fungals changed. For example, the sentry, with 80 hp, goes from like 2.3 fungals to 2.4 fungals-- a relatively insignificant change.
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On September 20 2011 10:05 Mythito wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 09:57 michaelhasanalias wrote:
ZvZ
Another notable change to fungal in 1.4 is in ZvZ. Zerglings, Banelings and Broodlings could be killed in a single fungal. However, they now require two fungals (or other unit damage).
Further, while Infestors could be double fungaled, they now require three fungals.
Essentially, nearly every zerg unit requires an extra fungal to kill except the roach. This leaves roach wars almost unchanged, but nerfs infestors slightly vs everything else in zvz.
just wanted to note that zerglings always needed 2 fungals, they'd survive a fungal with 1 health
Pretty sure it was 1 pre patch... 36 damage fungal v 35 hp ling?
edit: I don't think the regen was fast enough either
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This is a really cool list-- thanks for this.
I think the 1.4 nerf doesn't change the power of the Infestor, it only increases the amount of skill it takes to use infestors as a whole. People need to be more time- and cost-efficient with their fungal growths instead of being able to just spam them everywhere and just plain win.
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On September 20 2011 10:10 SoKHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 10:05 Mythito wrote:On September 20 2011 09:57 michaelhasanalias wrote:
ZvZ
Another notable change to fungal in 1.4 is in ZvZ. Zerglings, Banelings and Broodlings could be killed in a single fungal. However, they now require two fungals (or other unit damage).
Further, while Infestors could be double fungaled, they now require three fungals.
Essentially, nearly every zerg unit requires an extra fungal to kill except the roach. This leaves roach wars almost unchanged, but nerfs infestors slightly vs everything else in zvz.
just wanted to note that zerglings always needed 2 fungals, they'd survive a fungal with 1 health Pretty sure it was 1 pre patch... 36 damage fungal v 35 hp ling? edit: I don't think the regen was fast enough either
100% sure they needed two fungals to die. This is so easy to test I'm not sure why it's even in question.
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I don't think auto-turrets can be fungal'd; they most likely are treated as buildings in every regard.
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Damn awesome to hear about the no clipping part. Infestors was a way to unforgiving unit to vs. You get your units caught out once and perm fungal'd, glad to see it will actually take skill to time now.
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someone define the way the word clip is used in the OP, im pretty lost here...
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Awesome, as a Protoss I am happy with the Infestor changes this patch, no only to nerf KR Terrans.
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Indeed what is this "clip" issue?
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On September 20 2011 10:07 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 10:03 stanik wrote:
Ty for the list. I'm sure people will point out missing units. For example marine / combat shield marine, workers, medivac, battle cruiser, HT, zealot, sentry, reaper, hydra. That's an interesting point. I think, however (and I may be wrong) that he was only counting those units against which the critical number of fungals changed. For example, the sentry, with 80 hp, goes from like 2.3 fungals to 2.4 fungals-- a relatively insignificant change.
You could be right, although he did post hellion / seige tank where critical numbers don't change.
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On September 20 2011 10:07 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 10:03 stanik wrote:
Ty for the list. I'm sure people will point out missing units. For example marine / combat shield marine, workers, medivac, battle cruiser, HT, zealot, sentry, reaper, hydra. That's an interesting point. I think, however (and I may be wrong) that he was only counting those units against which the critical number of fungals changed. For example, the sentry, with 80 hp, goes from like 2.3 fungals to 2.4 fungals-- a relatively insignificant change.
Pardon me for probably being stupid - But decimals dosn't really matter much do they? Be it 2.1 or 2.9, you still need to Fungal the unit 3 times?
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I don't understand the clipping thing at all, can anyone reexplain?
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On September 20 2011 10:17 ELA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 10:07 Blazinghand wrote:On September 20 2011 10:03 stanik wrote:
Ty for the list. I'm sure people will point out missing units. For example marine / combat shield marine, workers, medivac, battle cruiser, HT, zealot, sentry, reaper, hydra. That's an interesting point. I think, however (and I may be wrong) that he was only counting those units against which the critical number of fungals changed. For example, the sentry, with 80 hp, goes from like 2.3 fungals to 2.4 fungals-- a relatively insignificant change. Pardon me for probably being stupid - But decimals dosn't really matter much do they? Be it 2.1 or 2.9, you still need to Fungal the unit 3 times?
decimals matter quite a bit, in a realistic battle there will be units attacking, meaning you might be fungaling a unit thats already been damaged
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On September 20 2011 10:19 Torte de Lini wrote:
I don't understand the clipping thing at all, can anyone reexplain?
I guess another word for it would be overlapping fungals.
Before you could overlap a fungal on stalkers and still kill them in 4 fungals.
Now if you don't let each and every tick do its damage and are a little early on the fungal, they will need 5 fungals.
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On September 20 2011 10:19 Torte de Lini wrote:
I don't understand the clipping thing at all, can anyone reexplain?
He means you can't reapply fungal while there is already a fungal active before the full duration has damaged a unit. so if something took 3 in 1.3 while applying fungal before the last one was over, in 1.4 if you overlap it could take 4 if it wouldve taken 3 had you not overlapped them.
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On September 20 2011 10:19 Torte de Lini wrote:
I don't understand the clipping thing at all, can anyone reexplain?
i think it is like. When you fungal the 1st time on a group of stalkers then when the fungal is not completely over you fungal it again.
In the previous patch, it took 3.42 fungals to kill stalkers, so you could be doing some fungals early. But now since it is 4, you must be exact on the time yo do the next fungal or you have to fungal them again
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clipping means you cannot overlap any fungals - since a stalker need exactly 4 FGs to kill (at full duration).
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I really think people underestimate his nerf.
20% damage difference is like 1 or 2 upgrades on an attacking unit.
It isn't directly visible, but at the end of the fight, it makes such a huge difference.
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Thanks for the note about clipping. I'd been thinking that since it didn't require additional fungals to kill protoss units that it was a bit of a cop out, but since there can't be overlap of the spell, the zerg either has spend an extra fungal or give stalkers a split second opportunity to blink out.
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On September 20 2011 10:33 Elean wrote:
I really think people underestimate his nerf.
20% damage difference is like 1 or 2 upgrades on an attacking unit.
It isn't directly visible, but at the end of the fight, it makes such a huge difference.
Fungal growth, as most damage spells, ignore armor completely.
(Psi Storm, Snipe, etc)
On September 20 2011 10:36 RisingTide wrote:
Thanks for the note about clipping. I'd been thinking that since it didn't require additional fungals to kill protoss units that it was a bit of a cop out, but since there can't be overlap of the spell, the zerg either has spend an extra fungal or give stalkers a split second opportunity to blink out.
I didn't think about this at all, and I think that's actually worth mentioning in OP. If you spam blink, fungal'd stalkers can escape between stacks (or be forced to use an extra fungal).
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The change to clipping is enough to make me content 
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very informative thank you very much. Its interesting that it will require 2 fungals to kill lings now.
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United States7166 Posts
something people dont realize is zerg units regen their first hit point back right after they lose hp, which is why zerglings currently in 1.3 can survive with 1 hp after 1 fungal.
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On September 20 2011 10:36 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 10:33 Elean wrote:
I really think people underestimate his nerf.
20% damage difference is like 1 or 2 upgrades on an attacking unit.
It isn't directly visible, but at the end of the fight, it makes such a huge difference. Fungal growth, as most damage spells, ignore armor completely. (Psi Storm, Snipe, etc)
You're missing the point It might take the same number of fungals if your ONLY dps were from fungals, but that isn't how you actually fight - you are not making 100% infestors, so other units are dealing damage. losing 20% of that damage output might not matter when you're locking down a small group of units until it dies, but when you're fighting the bigger armies, it matters a lot because that ball is going to stay alive longer, doing damage to your units longer, even if you DO have enough juice to take it down.
Also, fungal overlapping is considerably less powerful when it causes you to use more fungals - you HAVE to overlap (clip) on blink stalkers, for example, because otherwise they get away. So it DOES in effect take an extra fungal to kill them.
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no more clipping
Awesome, now I will never be able to use two or more fungals in a row due to delay. T_T
If only there was lan support....
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im kinda curious who started the rumor that it took the same number of fungals for all toss units... did they just suck at math or did they just say it and hope no one would check?
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On September 20 2011 10:38 Zelniq wrote:
something people dont realize is zerg units regen their first hit point back right after they lose hp, which is why zerglings currently in 1.3 can survive with 1 hp after 1 fungal.
forgot about this, fixed OP. thanks
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On September 20 2011 10:43 Makura wrote:
im kinda curious who started the rumor that it took the same number of fungals for all toss units... did they just suck at math or did they just say it and hope no one would check?
Belial88 I believe. This fungal change is actually a pretty big change. A good one too. Fungal will now require a little more skill to use which is a good thing.
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Clipping is where you would fungal on top of the first fungal with say a second left on the original. Your units would still be trapped, and the second fungal would be enough to kill your unit.
After the patch it will take two FULL fungals to kill most units. (for example I used 2.)
edit: whoah, I had this thread open and went to go eat dinner then came back to reply and there was a page of replies before mine. Shoulda noticed that before I posted. Sorry!~
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ty for this chart. Ghost require 4 like maruaders. Beefy lil units they are
Still same number of funguls vs stalkers, sentry, marines, roaches. :/
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good list but regarding the stalkers, unless you are fighting pure infestor vs stalker you're going to have an army backing you up so I don't think there will really be much of a difference in how many fungals you need to kill a stalker. This is a nice chart and very informative.
oh and you forgot workers? Is there any change?
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On September 20 2011 10:53 HCmystic wrote:
ty for this chart. Ghost require 4 like maruaders. Beefy lil units they are
Still same number of funguls vs stalkers, sentry, marines, roaches. :/
its huge for stalkers... it takes 4 full fungals, or 5 if they miss... and since they will try to chain them perfectly, a 0.1 S miss will allow stalkers to blink away :D
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i was underwhelmed by the fungal nerf when i saw it in the ptr notes, but now that this clipping thing has been brought to my attention i am hoping to be satisfied with its balance. but i wont give it the benefit of the doubt lol. its fungal growth after all 
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Basically, if you overlap your Fungal Casts, you're reducing the damage done by the first one. If you were to cast 2 instantly on units, at the exact same time from 2 Infestors, it would do the damage of 1. They no longer overlap and both do full damage. Units are either taking damage from fungal or not taking damage from fungal. There is no multiples of fungal at 1 time.
Edit: ...and yes this means no more 4 quick casts on a group to kill everything there. They would either have to wait for 4 fungals to do damage, or kill them with other units. Units will live for much longer in a fight from just fungal damage, and also it's harder for the Zerg to pull off.
Instead of just spamming FFFFFFF...
Zerg has to be there, and babysit the fungals, spacing them out and keeping them on to maximize their damage. No just spamming FFFFF then going back to your base to macro. Realistically, Zerg may have to macro in between fungal casts now.
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You can't fungal auto-turrets. They're buildings, like PDDs.
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8748 Posts
We've always said stacking (since storm in sc1), not clipping. The damage gets clipped but the spells stack. It's misleading to talk about fungal and clipping directly. If you stack fungals, you clip damage. If you chain fungals, you don't clip damage.
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On September 20 2011 11:00 cursor wrote:
Basically, if you overlap your Fungal Casts, you're reducing the damage done by the first one. If you were to cast 2 instantly on units, at the exact same time from 2 Infestors, it would do the damage of 1. They no longer overlap and both do full damage. Units are either taking damage from fungal or not taking damage from fungal. There is no multiples of fungal at 1 time.
Edit: ...and yes this means no more 4 quick casts on a group to kill everything there. They would either have to wait for 4 fungals to do damage, or kill them with other units. Units will live for much longer in a fight from just fungal damage, and also it's harder for the Zerg to pull off.
Instead of just spamming FFFFFFF...
Zerg has to be there, and babysit the fungals, spacing them out and keeping them on to maximize their damage. No just spamming FFFFF then going back to your base to macro. Realistically, Zerg may have to macro in between fungal casts now.
Well you clearly didn't know how fungal worked before this patch because it actually worked exactly the same. You've never been able to stack fungals and we've always had to time out the duration. It was even harder when it was 8 seconds.
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So I'm getting the idea that this clipping ordeal the OP is talking about is saying that if you overlap your fungals then it won't take affect? If that's not what has been changed then I don't understand how there is a change at all.
Fungal has never stacked its damage.
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On September 20 2011 11:04 PopcornColonel wrote:
You can't fungal auto-turrets. They're buildings, like PDDs.
edited that out, not sure why I had it in the first place
On September 20 2011 11:04 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
We've always said stacking (since storm in sc1), not clipping. The damage gets clipped but the spells stack. It's misleading to talk about fungal and clipping directly. If you stack fungals, you clip damage. If you chain fungals, you don't clip damage.
added stacking to the OP to help allay any confusion
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On September 20 2011 09:57 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Warp Prism
The new changes to both warp prism and fungal growth make for the biggest change in fungal requirement. In 1.3 it took only three fungals to kill a warp prism, while the new patch requires five.
honestly, no one uses warp prisms anyway and fungalling them is not as important as fungulling medivacs as they only cost 200 minerals.
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Nice analysis. Really shows the full effect of a -6 damage change. Now zergs will need to pay attention just a little more instead of spamming FG on top of FG endlessly. At the least they waste 1 more fungal than they need to. Though with 12 infestors... drop in the bucket huh?
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I'd like to see a chart in there for Marines vs Stimmed Marines and Marauders vs Stimmed Marauders.
Combat Shield Marine 55hp - 2 fungals pre/post patch
Combat+Stim 45hp - 2 fungals pre/post patch
Just Stim 35hp (or double stimmed + combat) - 2fungals post patch, 1 pre.
Marauders, not as big of a deal, but still I like the idea of units that have stimmed once or twice without a personal medivac.
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i dont think the DoT ever mattered.
fungal stops all micro, fungal should be a slow not a snare.
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Wow, thanks for this. I knew that the 40 damage thing would be very good (considering that some units would be affected and others wouldn't, like Stalkers), but didn't realize some things like how Viking/Raven/Banshee will now require 1 extra fungal to kill. This will be awesome for Terran Air
Edit; what i mean is that blizzard is really careful with their numbers and always seems to find some magical number xD
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So does the clipping only apply to the units he stated? Stalker, Dark Templar, Observer, MULE, Hellion, Siege Tank? or does it affect all units?
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I wish fungal was back to being a "holder" rather than a damage dealer. Make it slow units by 80% and deal less damage. As it is it's just an alternate psi storm (and arguably better).
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On September 20 2011 11:12 ZOMGitsTHEEND wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 09:57 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Warp Prism
The new changes to both warp prism and fungal growth make for the biggest change in fungal requirement. In 1.3 it took only three fungals to kill a warp prism, while the new patch requires five.
honestly, no one uses warp prisms anyway and fungalling them is not as important as fungulling medivacs as they only cost 200 minerals.
Hmm...what toss metagame are you clinging onto? Given this patch and the increased use of prism by a host of pros (JYP and Hero come to mind immediately--as recently as last season's GSL and the Valencia Dreamhack), I think we're only going to see more warp prism harass in PvZ. If a game goes beyond 10 minutes vs Z, I use warp prisms.
tl;dr Many toss are already trending toward using the prism and infestors are a decent counter if the Zerg leaves one in his mineral line. This nerd will be good for prism play.
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On September 20 2011 11:19 Darpa wrote:
So does the clipping only apply to the units he stated? Stalker, Dark Templar, Observer, MULE, Hellion, Siege Tank? or does it affect all units?
Read the chart Derpa.
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Great post, especially the part on clipping.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
The stacking section is very misleading. The most powerful part of fungal isn't the damage it deals, but the fact it roots units to the ground. You can still chain-fungal units with overlapping fungals to keep them rooted forever. And iirc, the damage fungal did never stacked.
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The part about clipping in interesting. I like how stalkers will take 5 fungals if you want to be 100% sure they will not escape. It makes me think Blizzard may be smarter than I give them credit for.
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On September 20 2011 11:12 ZOMGitsTHEEND wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 09:57 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Warp Prism
The new changes to both warp prism and fungal growth make for the biggest change in fungal requirement. In 1.3 it took only three fungals to kill a warp prism, while the new patch requires five.
honestly, no one uses warp prisms anyway and fungalling them is not as important as fungulling medivacs as they only cost 200 minerals.
where have u been
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Next patch the infestor gets reverted to its 36 damage over 8 seconds (pre-patch 1.3 state)
You heard it here first, folks.
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btw the marauder is misleading, as the marauder will be stimmed in most cases
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I understand the importance of the clipping, or stacking, as Tyler would say, but there are still many situations where the dps reduction matters more, since the fungal'd units are taking damage from other sources. Or, course, some units are being healed by medevacs.
Do most people count their fungals, or do they simply watch the health bars go down and apply as needed? It certainly seems after the patch counting them will be very useful in some situations, and it will also require great focus.
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On September 20 2011 11:33 Plexa wrote:
The stacking section is very misleading. The most powerful part of fungal isn't the damage it deals, but the fact it roots units to the ground. You can still chain-fungal units with overlapping fungals to keep them rooted forever. And iirc, the damage fungal did never stacked.
Hmmm... I added a note to it, but the point I was trying to make is for non-engagements. Before, you could catch an army out of position and fungal it down with clipping(stacking), but now, it's much more difficult.
I feel like Blizzard's intention in this change is to make fungals less effective out of combat but remain essentially the same in combat for most engagements.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
When Zergs have 10+ infestors (not uncommon mid-late zvp, esp. if you are behind as protoss) clipping really doesn't matter
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On September 20 2011 10:20 AGIANTSMURF wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 10:17 ELA wrote:On September 20 2011 10:07 Blazinghand wrote:On September 20 2011 10:03 stanik wrote:
Ty for the list. I'm sure people will point out missing units. For example marine / combat shield marine, workers, medivac, battle cruiser, HT, zealot, sentry, reaper, hydra. That's an interesting point. I think, however (and I may be wrong) that he was only counting those units against which the critical number of fungals changed. For example, the sentry, with 80 hp, goes from like 2.3 fungals to 2.4 fungals-- a relatively insignificant change. Pardon me for probably being stupid - But decimals dosn't really matter much do they? Be it 2.1 or 2.9, you still need to Fungal the unit 3 times? decimals matter quite a bit, in a realistic battle there will be units attacking, meaning you might be fungaling a unit thats already been damaged
In a realistic battle when units are attacking in addition to fungals being cast, these decimals are useless - The damage is what matters?
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If fungal is great because it root thing, why everyone agree that the 36 damage 8s root was worse than the one we have today ?
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when FG was changed to 4s from 8s, everyone agreed this was a huge buff because of the extra DPS. Now 1/3 of this extra DPS is gone, and people are saying this is nothing what matters is the root ability ?!
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Sorry to beat a dead horse, but as for the clipping:
Can they still be chained to keep units in place, even without damage stacking? For example, if a player casts FG, and then another when there is 1 second left on the original, will the units stay rooted for 7 seconds? Or will only the first one be affecting them, and they can move after 4?
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On September 20 2011 22:30 Sated wrote:
Considering how many Infestors Zerg player have, it really doesn't matter if they have to waste a little more energy on "clipping". Fungal still prevent the opponent micro'ing against your army and that is a massive deal because it prevents the opponent from having a chance at using a superior micro skill-set to even out engagements.
I agree with you to a certain extent... Abilities similar to fungal in terms of denying micro, like forcefield, actually allow for great micro to shine, such as hot pickups with medivacs or burrow micro. However, as you stated, fungal 100% denys any micro once the spell has landed.
With that said however, I think the superior micro vs infestors should come in the avoiding fungal micro. Unfortunately, I think this is mostly a TvZ concept, I don't really know how P's avoid fungals... they can't really spread their units like Terrans can. Or can they? prolly not realistic or even a good idea, but maybe.
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At the core, the nerf means that you will need ~1 extra fungal to kill most of the unit. It's quite a nerf.
I am glad we can still 2shot observers.
However, i have no clue how is Z going to deal with Warp prisms....It will be same as vs Terran, but without mutas. Wait and see.
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Does roach burrowed regen now = fungal DPS? Am I getting that wrong?
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funny op saying stacking fungals isn't possible anymore, while its still possible just needs an additional fungal on some units. (that way its even easier to do)
In fact it will be awesome to see if a player can get the stalkers with only 4 and if the other one manages to save his units against this . So the skill ceiling for fungal just went high into the sky, while its still noob friendly.
And why should i use the word clipping, stacking has the same length, so no need to use another word for stacking something , clipping fungals sounds just odd. Chaining fungals sounds more clear and awesome anyway.
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I like the changes in ZvZ. At the moment, the match-up is like:
Oh he's getting Roaches, what counters Roaches? Roaches and Infestors I guess. Oh, he's getting Infestors, what counters Infestors? Roaches and Infestors I guess. Getting Banelings when there are Infestors on the field is currently a complete gamble. Hopefully this will help to make styles viable.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
On September 20 2011 10:38 Zelniq wrote:
something people dont realize is zerg units regen their first hit point back right after they lose hp, which is why zerglings currently in 1.3 can survive with 1 hp after 1 fungal.
This isn't directly why, this is just how it's shown to us on the interface (a unit will show 1 HP when it has 0.001 HP so it doesn't look stupid that a unit survives with 0 HP).
Zerg units regenerate at a rate marginally over 0.25/s (you can find the exact number somewhere).
So a fungal on a zergling before this patch deals 36 damage over 4s, with a zergling have 35hp and it will regenerate just over 1 health in that time, meaning it survives. If fungal did 36.2 damage it would kill a zergling outright.
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On September 20 2011 11:12 ZOMGitsTHEEND wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 09:57 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Warp Prism
The new changes to both warp prism and fungal growth make for the biggest change in fungal requirement. In 1.3 it took only three fungals to kill a warp prism, while the new patch requires five.
honestly, no one uses warp prisms anyway and fungalling them is not as important as fungulling medivacs as they only cost 200 minerals.
Wait WHAT? Have you heard of the guy LiquidHerO? To my knowledge he is KNOWN as the Warp Prism guy as well as White-ra.
Considering the medievac and the warp prism are from two different races i would be honestly amazed if you ever had to choose between a Warp prism and and medievac in a 1v1 situation no really tell me next time that happens.
In case you havent noticed more and more players are using Warp prisms (ex. Minigun)
If zerg is going infestor ling how else do they stop warp prism? Fungal + Infested terrans
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SoCal8910 Posts
thanks for the information. as a zerg player i was okay with this fungal change from the start and now the numbers are there to make me feel that much better.
i did think it was pretty skill-less to chain fungal but with some more even numbers, if you had good infestor control to begin with (read: weren't spamming the hell outta fungal) you definitely won't feel the changes too much especially since it should just be a damage output boost instead of a "lock down" in most situations.
i'm still bummed about the neural nerf..but maybe next patch or a hotfix will get it reverted when it becomes blatantly obvious that infestors are going to be incredibly easy to kill. i'd like that HP buff they considered a couple patches back :/
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On September 20 2011 09:57 michaelhasanalias wrote:1.4 Fungal Growth Unit Damage ChartSorry if this is a repost, but I looked around and didn't see a post showing these numbers. So, since the patch just went live I thought I would post this: units where the critical number of fungals did not change are not listed, unless they can't be clipped1.3 Fungal - 36 (46.8 v armored) 1.4 Fungal - 30 (40 v armored) Some of these things are probably already well-known by now, but I will list them for completion's sake: No More Clipping (Stacking)The biggest thing to note is all the whole numbers in 1.4. This means that while you can still kill many units with the same number of fungals, you can no longer clip (stack) them. You must let the full duration tick each time, and then re-stack fungal (extraneous damage notwithstanding). Units you can no longer clip: Stalker, Dark Templar, Observer, MULE, Hellion, Siege Tank edit: Clipping is defined as when you overwrite the existing damage over time spell with a new one. Fungal does damage over time, and if you cast a new fungal growth before the old one has finished, the first fungal can't do its full damage.Blink Stalkers (thanks to RisingTide for mentioning this)Because you can no longer clip Stalkers with 4 fungals and must be precise, zerg players must now make the decision whether to continue to clip versus Blink Stalkers and use a 5th fungal to kill them, or allow them the opportunity to blink away if the protoss player is spamming the blink command (extraneous damage notwithstanding). Warp PrismThe new changes to both warp prism and fungal growth make for the biggest change in fungal requirement. In 1.3 it took only three fungals to kill a warp prism, while the new patch requires five. ZvZAnother notable change to fungal in 1.4 is in ZvZ. Banelings and Broodlings could be killed in a single fungal. However, they now require two fungals (or other unit damage). Further, while Infestors could be double fungaled, they now require three fungals. Essentially, nearly every zerg unit requires an extra fungal to kill except the roach. This leaves roach wars almost unchanged, but nerfs infestors slightly vs everything else (except zerglings) in zvz. Closing CommentsAt least in my opinion, while on its face it doesn't seem that fungal growth has been affected all that much, I do believe it now requires greater skill to use equally, as you must use greater care with stacking fungal growth. The inability to clip many units and kill them solely with fungal growth will add a risk of those units being able to flee, and require more attention and better timing by zerg players. I think players highly skilled with Infestors will find no notable difference in most situations, regardless of the new inability to clip many units. Those whose sense of timing fungals is not very good will now need to learn this skill.
You forgot to add sentries to the chart.
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On September 20 2011 22:55 david.oh.k wrote:
You forgot to add sentries to the chart.
have you read the thread?
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On September 20 2011 09:57 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Some of these things are probably already well-known by now, but I will list them for completion's sake:
No More Clipping (Stacking)
The biggest thing to note is all the whole numbers in 1.4. This means that while you can still kill many units with the same number of fungals, you can no longer clip (stack) them. You must let the full duration tick each time, and then re-stack fungal (extraneous damage notwithstanding).
Units you can no longer clip: Stalker, Dark Templar, Observer, MULE, Hellion, Siege Tank
edit: Clipping is defined as when you overwrite the existing damage over time spell with a new one. Fungal does damage over time, and if you cast a new fungal growth before the old one has finished, the first fungal can't do its full damage.
I'm confused, can you explain this change in detail? I really don't understand how this is different from before.
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Was an OP spell anyways. Now it's still the strongest AoE in the game but slightly less so :D
Neural change was retarded and I don't know how we're to stop maxed archon/HT balls anymore. Back to banebombs I guess sigh...
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I'm just so glad, that I never went for that fungal style...
On September 20 2011 23:18 R3N wrote:
Was an OP spell anyways. Now it's still the strongest AoE in the game but slightly less so :D
ahm... no?! Fungal has 7.5/10dps --> Psi Storm has 20dps;
Sieged Tanks have 11.7/16.8dps,
Colossus 18.2 dps
Ultralisks 17.4/40.6 dps
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I agree with the assessment. When I looked into the numbers as you did I saw that for the most part all that changed was the skill required to use fungal (or in some cases, an additional use of the spell or outside damage dealer). I suppose there's nothing wrong with this and the DPS is a fair amount lower now as well which has quite an impact.
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On September 20 2011 23:11 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 09:57 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Some of these things are probably already well-known by now, but I will list them for completion's sake:
No More Clipping (Stacking)
The biggest thing to note is all the whole numbers in 1.4. This means that while you can still kill many units with the same number of fungals, you can no longer clip (stack) them. You must let the full duration tick each time, and then re-stack fungal (extraneous damage notwithstanding).
Units you can no longer clip: Stalker, Dark Templar, Observer, MULE, Hellion, Siege Tank
edit: Clipping is defined as when you overwrite the existing damage over time spell with a new one. Fungal does damage over time, and if you cast a new fungal growth before the old one has finished, the first fungal can't do its full damage.
I'm confused, can you explain this change in detail? I really don't understand how this is different from before.
If you actually read what you quoted, I don't see how there can be any confusion... But since you clearly need help, I'll try my best.
Ok so let's look at one example, and hopefully it will be clear.
Stalker. Pre patch took 3.42 fungals to kill, but since you obviously can't cast 0.42 of a fungal, you must cast a 4th fungal to kill the stalker. However, if you were to cast one of your fungals BEFORE the previous fungals duration ran out, you had some leeway. For example, if you were to cast 1 fungal every 3.5 seconds exactly, you would be cutting off 0.5s of the fungal damage (0.5s/4.0s = .125 or 1/8th) so you would only get 7/8ths or .875 of a fungal. Take that .875 and x4, and you get 3.5 fungals worth of damage, enough to kill a stalker.
HOWEVER, Post patch, it now takes EXACTLY 4 fungals to kill a stalker. Meaning if you "clip" or "stack" a single fungal, you will require an additional 5th fungal to kill a stalker. Taking the example from above, the 4 fungals that only dealt 3.5 fungals worth of damage would NOT kill the stalker.
The OP is saying that all these WHOLE numbers that come up in the new patch mean that you can no longer "stack" or "clip" fungals unless you want to spend an extra fungal. Why is this important? Two main reasons: You now have to be PERFECT to keep a unit permafungaled to death, or else risk having 1) to spend an extra fungal, or 2) the unit escapes outside the fungal range.
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Its time for über mass baneling!!
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Infestors from 2 to 3 fungals is nice for ZvZ.
Also, Infestors shoudln't kill units alone, so I like that it are round numbers now. It makes it harder to solely use the infestor.
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Banelings in 2 hits are pretty cool. I always thought just 1 hit on huge clump of banelings was too good.
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On September 20 2011 23:18 R3N wrote:
Was an OP spell anyways. Now it's still the strongest AoE in the game but slightly less so :D
Neural change was retarded and I don't know how we're to stop maxed archon/HT balls anymore. Back to banebombs I guess sigh...
I forgot they got nerfed too. Pretty heavily too. Hello Roch-Hydra-Corruptor. How I've missed you.
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poor hydra. it cant even get itself into the list. lol
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I never knew the fungal damage before 1.4 could be stacked, I used to fungal mutas and then wait for the cast to almost be over before adding another one.
Has storm always functioned the same way?
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On September 21 2011 01:00 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 22:43 Gotmog wrote:
At the core, the nerf means that you will need ~1 extra fungal to kill most of the unit. It's quite a nerf.
I am glad we can still 2shot observers.
However, i have no clue how is Z going to deal with Warp prisms....It will be same as vs Terran, but without mutas. Wait and see. Protoss can't put anything in a Warp Prism that has anything near the damage/cost ratio of 8 stimmed marines or 4 stimmed marauders, so it kinda balances out. DT drops or Storm drops might become a bit more popular, same with sentry drops, but that's a lot of gas to lose if your Warp Prism gets caught out of position!
I agree with the 8stimmed marines... but droping marauders in ZvT is just aweful
But I guess the beauty of the warp prism isn't, that it can just load units an drop them  "You think 4roaches are enough against those 4chargelots? Have another 4!"
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All the units needing an exact number of fungals to kill now are harder to chain fungal which is good, IMO. You need perfect micro to kill blink stalkers with just 4 fungals now.
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On September 21 2011 01:06 thelok wrote:
I never knew the fungal damage before 1.4 could be stacked, I used to fungal mutas and then wait for the cast to almost be over before adding another one.
Has storm always functioned the same way?
I think you are misunderstanding the issue.
Fungals stack in the same way storm does, that is it doesn't.
Stacking a fungal or storm will in essence just reset the timer, where you end up losing whatever time was left on the original cast.
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I think the issue people are having here is that the OP made it sound like there was a fundamental change in the way fungals are applied, *in addition* to the damage change... it took reading through this whole thread to realize that it's just the numbers alone that are responsible for the required change in micro.
What I was imagining the OP was talking about was that if you fungal a group and then land another fungal with 1 second left, those units you fungaled with the 1st fungal would have the fungal *wear off* after the normal time and the second one would NOT take any effect at all (rooting or damage), effectively wasting all subsequent fungals unless you leave a little gap of time between them. And that would be a panic-inducing change.
Throughout this thread everyone was saying "so now you have to be precise with your timing and risk the enemy units running away", and that still applies with the big mechanics change I was imagining.
I was scared.
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On September 20 2011 23:29 Big J wrote:I'm just so glad, that I never went for that fungal style... Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 23:18 R3N wrote:
Was an OP spell anyways. Now it's still the strongest AoE in the game but slightly less so :D ahm... no?! Fungal has 7.5/10dps --> Psi Storm has 20dps; Sieged Tanks have 11.7/16.8dps, Colossus 18.2 dps Ultralisks 17.4/40.6 dps
Its my understanding that the Fungal area is somewhere between 60% and 80% larger than a Psi Storm meaning that it does something like 90% of the damage of a Psi Storm but all of the damage is guaranteed to be applied where almost no one ever eats a full Psi Storm.
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i don't think i ever used fungal to actually kill something , aside from dropships and harasssing air.
In a battle fungal is to hold them, not kill them. My units kill them.
As long as they don't remove the "hold" part of the spell i'm ok.. oh and the range.
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Vikings take one Fungal more now, I can imagine that changing the outcome of some ZvTs
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I'm not sure if this has been written but, banelings do not die from one fungal in 1.4 right?
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On September 21 2011 01:27 stanik wrote:
I think you are misunderstanding the issue.
Fungals stack in the same way storm does, that is it doesn't.
Stacking a fungal or storm will in essence just reset the timer, where you end up losing whatever time was left on the original cast.
well you could call fungal stacking, cause it 100% dmg for the last fungal.
I mean it is used against Workers for example, does it matter in that sense that the full duration of 2 fungals is not applied when all workers die in the end?
while obviously a stacked storm is an absolut waste of energy
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I hope this change as OP say will require more skill from Zerg's to use them. Anything that raises the skill ceiling without being nonsensical is a welcome change.
On September 20 2011 10:43 Hoon wrote:Awesome, now I will never be able to use two or more fungals in a row due to delay. T_T If only there was lan support....
Yeah, because LAN support would really help you on battle.net. Feels like people use any opportunity to kick this dead horse one more time.
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On September 20 2011 16:33 Noocta wrote:
If fungal is great because it root thing, why everyone agree that the 36 damage 8s root was worse than the one we have today ?
On September 20 2011 21:24 Elean wrote:
when FG was changed to 4s from 8s, everyone agreed this was a huge buff because of the extra DPS. Now 1/3 of this extra DPS is gone, and people are saying this is nothing what matters is the root ability ?!
These are very limited ways of looking at FG's issue and why people dislike the rooting effect. Pre 1.3, it could not kill units efficiently. Those numbers are also grossly exaggerated, it's a damage reduction of 17%/14.6% Armored.
Take the example of the Marine in Pre 1.3. You'd need to wait for at least 4 seconds of FG for it to apply its damage, then recast on another FG +8seconds. That would be 54 damage over 12 seconds. It'd be able to kill a bunch of Marines in 12 seconds.
Post 1.3 Patch with FG root duration halved and DPS doubled. First FG - 2 seconds, second one cast after that = 54 damage = 6 seconds.
You can kill Marines in 6 seconds.
In the pre 1.3 Patch, Terrans could potentially leap frog Siege Tanks to save this group of Marines. 4 seconds Un-siege, 4 seconds Re-Siege.
Post 1.3. Your Marines are caught out of position and not covered by Tank fire. They're as good as dead. Thus the rise of Ghosts in TvZ Terran armies to help with this issue.
I don't understand why Zergs don't see the difference in the patch change and its benefits, and blindly defend FG's rooting ability with talk about how nobody complained about Pre 1.3 FG. It's not just the Rooting effect, it's the doubled DPS and the potential to kill units with this DPS.
Could you kill with the original pre-1.3 FG? Yes but it requires 12seconds to kill a Marine. Post-1.3, it takes 6seconds.
This change forces Zergs to be more careful of FG usage and helps A lot as they can no longer Clip some units.
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On September 20 2011 23:44 spbelky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 23:11 Sbrubbles wrote:On September 20 2011 09:57 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Some of these things are probably already well-known by now, but I will list them for completion's sake:
No More Clipping (Stacking)
The biggest thing to note is all the whole numbers in 1.4. This means that while you can still kill many units with the same number of fungals, you can no longer clip (stack) them. You must let the full duration tick each time, and then re-stack fungal (extraneous damage notwithstanding).
Units you can no longer clip: Stalker, Dark Templar, Observer, MULE, Hellion, Siege Tank
edit: Clipping is defined as when you overwrite the existing damage over time spell with a new one. Fungal does damage over time, and if you cast a new fungal growth before the old one has finished, the first fungal can't do its full damage.
I'm confused, can you explain this change in detail? I really don't understand how this is different from before. If you actually read what you quoted, I don't see how there can be any confusion... But since you clearly need help, I'll try my best. Ok so let's look at one example, and hopefully it will be clear. Stalker. Pre patch took 3.42 fungals to kill, but since you obviously can't cast 0.42 of a fungal, you must cast a 4th fungal to kill the stalker. However, if you were to cast one of your fungals BEFORE the previous fungals duration ran out, you had some leeway. For example, if you were to cast 1 fungal every 3.5 seconds exactly, you would be cutting off 0.5s of the fungal damage (0.5s/4.0s = .125 or 1/8th) so you would only get 7/8ths or .875 of a fungal. Take that .875 and x4, and you get 3.5 fungals worth of damage, enough to kill a stalker. HOWEVER, Post patch, it now takes EXACTLY 4 fungals to kill a stalker. Meaning if you "clip" or "stack" a single fungal, you will require an additional 5th fungal to kill a stalker. Taking the example from above, the 4 fungals that only dealt 3.5 fungals worth of damage would NOT kill the stalker. The OP is saying that all these WHOLE numbers that come up in the new patch mean that you can no longer "stack" or "clip" fungals unless you want to spend an extra fungal. Why is this important? Two main reasons: You now have to be PERFECT to keep a unit permafungaled to death, or else risk having 1) to spend an extra fungal, or 2) the unit escapes outside the fungal range.
Hmm, I see, I thought he meant something had changed aside from the damage.
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Ever heard of rounding? Since you can't cast .75 of a fungal.
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On September 21 2011 04:05 DNA61289 wrote:
Ever heard of rounding? Since you can't cast .75 of a fungal.
All I'm saying is the mechanics remain the same, just the damage has changed. Also, have you ever killed an enemy army with just fungals? You can't think the game in terms of "hits to kill" instead of damage. In fact, I would say analysing "hits to kill" only matter when: 1) You're massing a single unit (not the case with infestors), 2) Focus fire purposes or 3) zealots or roaches against zerglings.
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On September 21 2011 04:05 DNA61289 wrote:
Ever heard of rounding? Since you can't cast .75 of a fungal.
Except players do it all the time. The decimals referring to the number of fungals necessary to kill a unit are fairly important, an earlier poster asked about the difference between 2.1 fungals and 2.9 fungals. Well at 2.1 fungals you need 9 seconds of Fungal Growth to kill a specific unit, this means that you can clip a full 3 seconds off, or you can clip 1.5 seconds early off of both recasts(the gap between the 1st and 2nd, and the gap between the 2nd and 3rd Fungal Growths). When a unit takes 2.9 Fungal Growths to kill it, you know only have a total of .4 seconds to clip off, this means your "overlap" or "clips" can each only be .2 seconds. This means you have to make a conscious decision about whether or not to use a full 4 Fungal Growths vs 3 with extremely precise timing. Knowing that if you miss that extremely precise timing you give the units an opportunity to scatter, or even worse - Blink.
Edit: Clipping or overlapping is even more important in the case of 2.9 Fungal Growths because of how Fungal Growth damage is timed, but I'll let someone else look into the specific numbers there.
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I would always rather get hit by storm than fungal. Just because fungal roots my units. Fungal should not root it should slow them down.
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No More Clipping (Stacking)
The biggest thing to note is all the whole numbers in 1.4. This means that while you can still kill many units with the same number of fungals, you can no longer clip (stack) them. You must let the full duration tick each time, and then re-stack fungal (extraneous damage notwithstanding).
Units you can no longer clip: Stalker, Dark Templar, Observer, MULE, Hellion, Siege Tank
edit: Clipping is defined as when you overwrite the existing damage over time spell with a new one. Fungal does damage over time, and if you cast a new fungal growth before the old one has finished, the first fungal can't do its full damage.
I'm sorry to be a nub but I don't understand this part. Is OP saying that pre-1.4 fungal damage would stack if you cast them on top of each other? I didn't think that was the case.
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On September 21 2011 05:26 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +
No More Clipping (Stacking)
The biggest thing to note is all the whole numbers in 1.4. This means that while you can still kill many units with the same number of fungals, you can no longer clip (stack) them. You must let the full duration tick each time, and then re-stack fungal (extraneous damage notwithstanding).
Units you can no longer clip: Stalker, Dark Templar, Observer, MULE, Hellion, Siege Tank
edit: Clipping is defined as when you overwrite the existing damage over time spell with a new one. Fungal does damage over time, and if you cast a new fungal growth before the old one has finished, the first fungal can't do its full damage.
I'm sorry to be a nub but I don't understand this part. Is OP saying that pre-1.4 fungal damage would stack if you cast them on top of each other? I didn't think that was the case.
I had the same question. Nothing changed from 1 patch to the other, except for the damage.
The OP is just pointing out the fact that units which take a round number of fungals to kill will have to suffer the full duration of the fungal in order to die from said round number of fungals. In other words, a stalker takes now exactly 4 fungals to kill, so if you don't wait out the first fungal's 4 seconds before applying the second fungal, you won't kill him (same for 3rd and 4th fungals).
Before, it took 3.42 fungals to kill a stalker, so if you didn't wait out the full duration of the fungal before throwing another one in there, you could still kill the stalker with just 4 fungals.
The stalker now takes exactly 4 fungals to kill, just as before, but if you cast the second fungal before the first one ends, it will actually take 5 fungals to kill the stalker.
This specific discussion is moot, of course, if there are other units in your army mix aside from the infestor.
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On September 21 2011 05:45 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 05:26 Treemonkeys wrote:
No More Clipping (Stacking)
The biggest thing to note is all the whole numbers in 1.4. This means that while you can still kill many units with the same number of fungals, you can no longer clip (stack) them. You must let the full duration tick each time, and then re-stack fungal (extraneous damage notwithstanding).
Units you can no longer clip: Stalker, Dark Templar, Observer, MULE, Hellion, Siege Tank
edit: Clipping is defined as when you overwrite the existing damage over time spell with a new one. Fungal does damage over time, and if you cast a new fungal growth before the old one has finished, the first fungal can't do its full damage.
I'm sorry to be a nub but I don't understand this part. Is OP saying that pre-1.4 fungal damage would stack if you cast them on top of each other? I didn't think that was the case. I had the same question. Nothing changed from 1 patch to the other, except for the damage. The OP is just pointing out the fact that units which take a round number of fungals to kill will have to suffer the full duration of the fungal in order to die from said round number of fungals. In other words, a stalker takes now exactly 4 fungals to kill, so if you don't wait out the first fungal's 4 seconds before applying the second fungal, you won't kill him (same for 3rd and 4th fungals). Before, it took 3.42 fungals to kill a stalker, so if you didn't wait out the full duration of the fungal before throwing another one in there, you could still kill the stalker with just 4 fungals. The stalker now takes exactly 4 fungals to kill, just as before, but if you cast the second fungal before the first one ends, it will actually take 5 fungals to kill the stalker. This specific discussion is moot, of course, if there are other units in your army mix aside from the infestor.
Well, as a Zerg player I like that change... Fungal should be an addition to your low dps (roach) army, when zerglings simply don't work so well anymore, due to little surface area. (and hydras are just don't do that job very well) It still does that job, but plain killing with fungal is weaker (1fungal more on most units) and takes more skill now!
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I just like this patch the most because I have a bad habit of stimming marines without combat shield, or double stimming combat shielded marines... pre patch 36dmg fungals would be guaranteed death, now I live with 5 hp!
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Archon is 10->12...? Massive != armored
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I honestly think the clipping change is the biggest part of the entire Infestor nerf. Before, FG pretty much meant certain death because you could reset the timer before the first FG was finished. Now you have to time it right every time or else the unit youre trying to chain FG could escape. The damage nerf is definitely notable, but the clipping change makes it so being hit by the first FG isnt auto death anymore
and yet Blizzard decided not to mention it in the patch notes
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These lists do not include Ultralisks(they still take damage) and all 3 workers
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I've searched the thread and it doesn't seem as if there is much discussion on this, but I think it's pretty huge that banelings don't get 1 shot anymore by FG. Will this open up room for more baneling centric styles?
On September 22 2011 07:39 Supamang wrote:
I honestly think the clipping change is the biggest part of the entire Infestor nerf. Before, FG pretty much meant certain death because you could reset the timer before the first FG was finished. Now you have to time it right every time or else the unit youre trying to chain FG could escape. The damage nerf is definitely notable, but the clipping change makes it so being hit by the first FG isnt auto death anymore
and yet Blizzard decided not to mention it in the patch notes
What are you talking about O.o? There has been no explicit change to clipping. Now you just have to time your fungals better. It's still auto death if they have a lot of infestors.
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the clipping thing is sure a big thing. increased the skill level for zergs now :D
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Lovin the no clipping . Fungal is a lot more forgiving now that zergs have to time their fungals
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On September 22 2011 08:22 Xanbatou wrote:I've searched the thread and it doesn't seem as if there is much discussion on this, but I think it's pretty huge that banelings don't get 1 shot anymore by FG. Will this open up room for more baneling centric styles? Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 07:39 Supamang wrote:
I honestly think the clipping change is the biggest part of the entire Infestor nerf. Before, FG pretty much meant certain death because you could reset the timer before the first FG was finished. Now you have to time it right every time or else the unit youre trying to chain FG could escape. The damage nerf is definitely notable, but the clipping change makes it so being hit by the first FG isnt auto death anymore
and yet Blizzard decided not to mention it in the patch notes What are you talking about O.o? There has been no explicit change to clipping. Now you just have to time your fungals better. It's still auto death if they have a lot of infestors.
?
Maybe I read it wrong but I thought that they changed the FG mechanics so that we cant FG units that are already affected by FG. Before 1.4 you could chain fungal really easily by just counting to 3 instead of 4 to fungal again. This was really good vs blink stalks because if the protoss is spamming blink then the stalks would usually blink out if you didnt overlap the FGs slightly.
Now that you have to wait until the 4 seconds are up before reapplying FG, blink stalks have a much better chance to escape, mutas can unclump and require more FGs to catch the whole group, etc.
Maybe Im wrong but I feel that its a significant change. If this isnt whats happening then ignore my post.
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The way I see it: Fungal works exactly as before but with less damage per seconds.
Meaning, in terms of the difference between 3.42 and 4 fungals to kill a stalker, that:
The energy cost and number of fungals remain the same.
The least possible time required to kill a stalker has changed from 3*4 + 0.42*4 or 13.68 secs to 4*4 = 16 seconds.
If you want to kill the stalker as fast as possible (and prevent it from blinking), you have to put down 4 nonoverlapping fungals at exact 4 seconds intervals. Before, due to overkill, you did not need to be as precise because you had 0.56*4 seconds to play with in overlapping the fungals.
If you are uncertain of your timing skills, and want to make sure that the stalker goes down in as few fungals as possible, be sure to wait 4 secs between each application of fungal. This guarantees that the stalker dies. It might blink away or take longer to kill, but you will not waste a fifth fungal.
If you have enough infestor energy that the fifth fungal doesn't matter, this change might work in your favor since you can make the fungals overlap much more. (having 4 seconds of slack instead of 2) which might free up time for macroing etc. But as noted it will take (_at least_) five fungals to kill a stalker with overlapping fungals.
Please tell me if you notice anything wrong in my reasoning.
PS Another way of putting it: Before, if you used overlapping fungals, it took _at least_ 4 fungals. Now, if you use overlapping fungals, it takes _at least_ 5. But if you don't overlap the fungals, it still takes only 4 (and if you want to prevent blink or kill as fast as possible, you have to chain them perfectly)
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On September 22 2011 18:49 straycat wrote:
The way I see it: Fungal works exactly as before but with less damage per seconds.
Meaning, in terms of the difference between 3.42 and 4 fungals to kill a stalker, that:
The energy cost and number of fungals remain the same.
The least possible time required to kill a stalker has changed from 3*4 + 0.42*4 or 13.68 secs to 4*4 = 16 seconds.
If you want to kill the stalker as fast as possible (and prevent it from blinking), you have to put down 4 nonoverlapping fungals at exact 4 seconds intervals. Before, due to overkill, you did not need to be as precise because you had 0.56*4 seconds to play with in overlapping the fungals.
If you are uncertain of your timing skills, and want to make sure that the stalker goes down in as few fungals as possible, be sure to wait 4 secs between each application of fungal. This guarantees that the stalker dies. It might blink away or take longer to kill, but you will not waste a fifth fungal.
If you have enough infestor energy that the fifth fungal doesn't matter, this change might work in your favor since you can make the fungals overlap much more. (having 4 seconds of slack instead of 2) which might free up time for macroing etc. But as noted it will take (_at least_) five fungals to kill a stalker with overlapping fungals.
Please tell me if you notice anything wrong in my reasoning.
PS Another way of putting it: Before, if you used overlapping fungals, it took _at least_ 4 fungals. Now, if you use overlapping fungals, it takes _at least_ 5. But if you don't overlap the fungals, it still takes only 4 (and if you want to prevent blink or kill as fast as possible, you have to chain them perfectly)
I guess as Protoss you can queue a blink command on stalkers, which means it becomes realisticly impossible, to kill stalkers with 4 fungals (noone will ever be that perfect - at least as long as the damage is dealt kind of continuos, which Im not so sure off)
Bio with Medivacs will no withstand way longer against fungals. F.e: double fungal will only kill marines if done very precisely, and every medivac on autoheal will save one marine.
Also I'm experimenting with more hydra use in ZvZ right now - and get infestor later on -, because hydras now will shoot an extra 2times now, when being fungaled to death, and if they are only 2times fungaled, they will need 2 extra roach shots now to die, instead of one. (and a hydraliks attacks ~2.5times in the same time a roach attacks)
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On September 22 2011 19:46 Big J wrote:
I guess as Protoss you can queue a blink command on stalkers, which means it becomes realisticly impossible, to kill stalkers with 4 fungals (noone will ever be that perfect - at least as long as the damage is dealt kind of continuos, which Im not so sure off)
Bio with Medivacs will no withstand way longer against fungals. F.e: double fungal will only kill marines if done very precisely, and every medivac on autoheal will save one marine.
Also I'm experimenting with more hydra use in ZvZ right now - and get infestor later on -, because hydras now will shoot an extra 2times now, when being fungaled to death, and if they are only 2times fungaled, they will need 2 extra roach shots now to die, instead of one. (and a hydraliks attacks ~2.5times in the same time a roach attacks)
Hmm yes you can still kill them with 4 fungals (unless shield regeneration plays a part somehow, I havent considered that), but as you mention it will in practice probably not be possible to pin them down with 4 fungals* . But tbh, in that respect nothing much has changed. I mean, it wasn't very much easier to prevent blink AND killing stuff with as few fungals as possible before either - sure, your fungals could overlap 2 seconds over a total duration of about 13 seconds, but in practice I dont know if anyone is as good as to have super control over either total overlap time or back to back fungalling.
*esp not if you can command queue blink... but can you really do that to the desired effect in that situation? I would think that the command gets into the queu, is evaluated, found not to be working (due to fungal) and then it's over. maybe if you spam queue?
Edit: Interesting points on the hydras, I would love it if it is that way since the roach infestor play is kind of... boring.
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hahahahah this is going to be so funny with my double medivac drop being able to keep every marine alive under dual fungals :D
basically it will take 3 fungals to kill marines that are supported by medivacs
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On September 22 2011 20:52 Manimal_pro wrote:
hahahahah this is going to be so funny with my double medivac drop being able to keep every marine alive under dual fungals :D
basically it will take 3 fungals to kill marines that are supported by medivacs
yeah, if you micro your heal... else each medivac will heal one marine...
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On September 22 2011 20:52 Manimal_pro wrote:
hahahahah this is going to be so funny with my double medivac drop being able to keep every marine alive under dual fungals :D
basically it will take 3 fungals to kill marines that are supported by medivacs
I hope you have 16medivac ... cuz 12/14 of your marines are going down with 2fg ...
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EPT
