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On September 20 2011 10:40 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 10:14 Eishi_Ki wrote:
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose. Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment. Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation. Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now.
Disagree with everything you said in the first paragraph, didn't read the rest. Those units only 'look' bad because they aren't because used. Hellions weren't ever getting used 1-2 months ago, but look at them now. Reapers are used a lot in TvP to scout, so you can't call them gimmicky :/. Banshees have there place in TvT, and sometimes used as a lategame unit to kill off tanks when you have air control. Even raven might be used against burrowed banes or against Mutas in the future (Actually they get used a lot in TvT against marauders). To call them gimmicky just because we only see them in the early game is stupid.
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On September 20 2011 10:37 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 10:29 avilo wrote:
Ah, wow, they went through with a mech nerf. They really need to make armories cheaper, at this rate they'll nerf tanks again or have some patch note next to the tank icon saying "use marauder instead."
I do not understand browder's obsession with making Terran need to play in a 1A marauder ball fashion. I understand there's a chip on his shoulder because of "cnc tank spam" and because this is "not brood war" but positional tank play is always 10x better than herp de derp marauder spam.
Zerg players are still laughing all the way to the bank. Sure, neural was nerfed, but mass infested terrans and infestor + broodlord remains the same strengh as last patch lol... What? 2 out of the 3 Terran matchups use tanks. Don´t be so dramatic
All 3 actually, if you include the 1/1/1 lol =)
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On September 20 2011 08:27 GGzerG wrote:
Well it is official, time to switch to Protoss. I agree with the overseer , ultralisk and fungal change, but the neural parasite change is really going to make late game really hard for zerg I think...Like when the map gets cut in half... T_T
I don't get it, why play protoss? I seriously doubt they will be %100 fixed with 3 buffs and 1 nerf. Destiny and people like you man... no faith in blizzard you just think zerg is now shit when it's definitely not. Most of the buffs are only helping PvP, immortal buff is clearly for PvP and the blink nerf is as well. The mothership buff/nerf obviously doesn't matter and the warp prism buff is decent.
If anything, with the rax build time increase you should be happy because now we can 15 hatch with more breathing room and I'm going to be burrowing banelings EVERYWHERE forcing lazy terrans to get a raven.
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Ugh the barracks time nerf stayed.... I didn't like that cause it disrupts my flow.
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On September 20 2011 10:52 WinteRR wrote:
How can people say TvZ has serious balance issues when Z has had a sharp incline in winrate % in Korea since the original FG change? Z finally overtook T in Korea for the first time, things look promising on the Z front in TvZ if you ask me - especially considering the latest T nerfs to hellions and barracks (where most zergs were losing games straight up).
Watch the July vs MVP game on metalopolis (or Thorzain versus Catz or any demuslim game versus zerg). That's why people are saying there's a problem with TvZ. The July MVP game isn't the best example as july made some questionable decisions, but once terran has a sufficient amount of tank/ghost you can't touch them.
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NO! Why couldn't this have come out on KR yesterday?? MC and Alicia may have survived!! TT
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On September 20 2011 10:53 Benzzro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 10:40 Bagi wrote:On September 20 2011 10:14 Eishi_Ki wrote:
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose. Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment. Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation. Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now. Disagree with everything you said in the first paragraph, didn't read the rest. Those units only 'look' bad because they aren't because used. Hellions weren't ever getting used 1-2 months ago, but look at them now. Reapers are used a lot in TvP to scout, so you can't call them gimmicky :/. Banshees have there place in TvT, and sometimes used as a lategame unit to kill off tanks when you have air control. Even raven might be used against burrowed banes or against Mutas in the future, but I don't really know. To call them gimmicky just because we only see them in the early game is stupid.
You can occasionally make 1 early reaper to scout the protoss, how is that a viable unit? What if you only built 1 sentry to block the ramp every game and it had no utility besides that, would that make the sentry a well designed unit? It serves a purpose, you can't call it gimmicky.
The rest of your post is just hypothetical "what if"-stuff. Well, what if protoss and zerg have just as many options as terrans do, they just haven't been discovered yet and the units look bad because they aren't used correctly? Or maybe we can focus on whats actually happening in the game and call a spade a spade.
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On September 20 2011 10:36 Benzzro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 10:16 Eps wrote:
Can you Kill with Mass EMPs? No. Can you Kill with Mass Fungals/Storms? Yes.
Players don't Mass up Ghosts and win the game outright with them. They're a support unit and their role is a fine one at that. However people could Chain-Fungal units down and Carpet Storms are a Pain.
There's a big difference between the Casters and people aren't content until they're all the same. Dude, that is such a bad argument. It's how they're designed, it's like me saying, "Voidrays can hit both air and ground, banshees only hit ground, HUURRR DUURRR THEIR UNDERPOWERED". HTs and Infestors are support units too, you can't just win outright right with them, If you get enough infestors, sure. But that's why their getting nerf'd. Try massing HTs against a terran player, I'd love to see how you do. The point is, both Zerg and Protoss rely on there casters so much if they go on that tech route, if they get EMP'd or die you pretty just lose the game. And then when you have a unit like the ghost that moves fast, easy to mass, good unit even without spells, EMP with a pretty big radius, and even snipe/cloak it's ridiculously hard to defend your casters against it, so saying you can 'chain storm' is stupid, I've been going HTs for 7-8 months vs Terran and still do. And manage to pull off only 1-2 storms even when I have spread HTs, just because the Terran has like 8 ghosts. Then have to rely on my HTs that I warped in prior to the battle that I kept safe, or use a warp prism. I could go on and on about the imbalance of the difficulty in micro'ing a Protoss army to a Terran army, but I won't. So your point about EMP not being able to win a game outright is stupid, because it can against a HT based army (Or an Infestor army 'probably'?, but I don't play Zerg so I wouldn't know)
You're overestimating the abilities of the Ghost unit. You say that they're good units without spells. Can you list any other combat unit that has a non-AOE damage of 10/20 vs Light for 200/100 resources? 2.25 Move Speed is considered Fast now?
After the EMP's are cast, Ghosts are essentially Useless vs Protoss. While Templars can morph into a nice Bio wrecking ball called an Archon.
1-2 Storms is able to damage a Bio-Terran's main DPS unit - Marines and potentially kill many of them and damage Marauders fairly well.
The supposed "100" damage that EMP does to Protoss units is overkill in many situations. While Storms do not suffer from this.
There are pros and cons from both units and abilities. And from what you're saying it is a coin flipped situation based on which player has better Micro of Casters and Army.
You talk a lot about Micro-ing a Protoss Army and how hard it is. Are you forgetting how Terrans have to Micro, Spread Bio and Kite to actually be effective against Chargelot/HT/Archon armies? And of course have Ghosts ready to EMP before the enemy Casters can?
The game has a micro component and it rewards whichever side micros better. I don't understand why there's so much complaints about it.
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On September 20 2011 11:00 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 10:53 Benzzro wrote:On September 20 2011 10:40 Bagi wrote:On September 20 2011 10:14 Eishi_Ki wrote:
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose. Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment. Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation. Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now. Disagree with everything you said in the first paragraph, didn't read the rest. Those units only 'look' bad because they aren't because used. Hellions weren't ever getting used 1-2 months ago, but look at them now. Reapers are used a lot in TvP to scout, so you can't call them gimmicky :/. Banshees have there place in TvT, and sometimes used as a lategame unit to kill off tanks when you have air control. Even raven might be used against burrowed banes or against Mutas in the future, but I don't really know. To call them gimmicky just because we only see them in the early game is stupid. You can occasionally make 1 early reaper to scout the protoss, how is that a viable unit? What if you only built 1 sentry to block the ramp every game and it had no utility besides that, would that make the sentry a well designed unit? It serves a purpose, you can't call it gimmicky. The rest of your post is just hypothetical "what if"-stuff. Well, what if protoss and zerg have just as many options as terrans do, they just haven't been discovered yet and the units look bad because they aren't used correctly? Or maybe we can focus on whats actually happening in the game and call a spade a spade.
QXC uses lategame speedreapers a lot in TvP, they're definitely not useless. Banshees are good all game long TvT and TvP and are great harass units in all 3 matchups. The only terran unit that isn't really proven to be amazing is the raven (though you need a mobile detector anyway) and they have been vastly underexplored.
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On September 20 2011 11:00 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 10:53 Benzzro wrote:On September 20 2011 10:40 Bagi wrote:On September 20 2011 10:14 Eishi_Ki wrote:
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose. Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment. Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation. Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now. Disagree with everything you said in the first paragraph, didn't read the rest. Those units only 'look' bad because they aren't because used. Hellions weren't ever getting used 1-2 months ago, but look at them now. Reapers are used a lot in TvP to scout, so you can't call them gimmicky :/. Banshees have there place in TvT, and sometimes used as a lategame unit to kill off tanks when you have air control. Even raven might be used against burrowed banes or against Mutas in the future, but I don't really know. To call them gimmicky just because we only see them in the early game is stupid. You can occasionally make 1 early reaper to scout the protoss, how is that a viable unit? What if you only built 1 sentry to block the ramp every game and it had no utility besides that, would that make the sentry a well designed unit? The rest of your post is just hypothetical "what if"-stuff. Well, what if protoss and zerg have just as many options as terrans do, they just haven't been discovered yet and the units look bad because they aren't used correctly? Or maybe we can focus on whats actually happening in the game and call a spade a spade.
Who said you only make 1 early reaper to scout, I've seen some KR terran players make some throughout the game to scout the main instead of scanning. I remember see Bratok and QXC dismantling Protoss players with reaper harass a while back. What 'what if' stuff lol? Both Banshees and Ravens do get used a lot in TvT, I'm not sure what you're talking about.
I can't talk for Zerg, but for Protoss sure there a lot of undiscovered stuff, so maybe we'll be seeing some new ways to use certain units, but units like Carriers and Mothership will remain trash until they get changed.
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On September 20 2011 10:57 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 10:52 WinteRR wrote:
How can people say TvZ has serious balance issues when Z has had a sharp incline in winrate % in Korea since the original FG change? Z finally overtook T in Korea for the first time, things look promising on the Z front in TvZ if you ask me - especially considering the latest T nerfs to hellions and barracks (where most zergs were losing games straight up). Watch the July vs MVP game on metalopolis (or Thorzain versus Catz or any demuslim game versus zerg). That's why people are saying there's a problem with TvZ. The July MVP game isn't the best example as july made some questionable decisions, but once terran has a sufficient amount of tank/ghost you can't touch them.
Not to discredit your point but you can't really compare Thorzain with Catz...Thorzain is on a whole different level than Catz...
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On September 20 2011 11:06 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 11:00 Bagi wrote:On September 20 2011 10:53 Benzzro wrote:On September 20 2011 10:40 Bagi wrote:On September 20 2011 10:14 Eishi_Ki wrote:
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose. Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment. Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation. Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now. Disagree with everything you said in the first paragraph, didn't read the rest. Those units only 'look' bad because they aren't because used. Hellions weren't ever getting used 1-2 months ago, but look at them now. Reapers are used a lot in TvP to scout, so you can't call them gimmicky :/. Banshees have there place in TvT, and sometimes used as a lategame unit to kill off tanks when you have air control. Even raven might be used against burrowed banes or against Mutas in the future, but I don't really know. To call them gimmicky just because we only see them in the early game is stupid. You can occasionally make 1 early reaper to scout the protoss, how is that a viable unit? What if you only built 1 sentry to block the ramp every game and it had no utility besides that, would that make the sentry a well designed unit? It serves a purpose, you can't call it gimmicky. The rest of your post is just hypothetical "what if"-stuff. Well, what if protoss and zerg have just as many options as terrans do, they just haven't been discovered yet and the units look bad because they aren't used correctly? Or maybe we can focus on whats actually happening in the game and call a spade a spade. QXC uses lategame speedreapers a lot in TvP, they're definitely not useless. Banshees are good all game long TvT and TvP and are great harass units in all 3 matchups. The only terran unit that isn't really proven to be amazing is the raven (though you need a mobile detector anyway) and they have been vastly underexplored.
QXC is one player and I don't see him winning anything at all. The strat is more fun and cool than actually strong.
Banshees are great for harass, lose all viability once a mutalisk or phoenix is built. They're pretty much the definition of a gimmicky unit.
You didn't even mention the BC which is probably the worst offender what comes to worthless units.
I also really hate how people call every terran unit really fucking good but just "underexplored" when nobody uses them. How does it not apply to the other two races? Is it the fact that we have 20 terrans in the GSL that makes all terran units flawless in every aspect?
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On September 20 2011 11:02 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 10:36 Benzzro wrote:On September 20 2011 10:16 Eps wrote:
Can you Kill with Mass EMPs? No. Can you Kill with Mass Fungals/Storms? Yes.
Players don't Mass up Ghosts and win the game outright with them. They're a support unit and their role is a fine one at that. However people could Chain-Fungal units down and Carpet Storms are a Pain.
There's a big difference between the Casters and people aren't content until they're all the same. Dude, that is such a bad argument. It's how they're designed, it's like me saying, "Voidrays can hit both air and ground, banshees only hit ground, HUURRR DUURRR THEIR UNDERPOWERED". HTs and Infestors are support units too, you can't just win outright right with them, If you get enough infestors, sure. But that's why their getting nerf'd. Try massing HTs against a terran player, I'd love to see how you do. The point is, both Zerg and Protoss rely on there casters so much if they go on that tech route, if they get EMP'd or die you pretty just lose the game. And then when you have a unit like the ghost that moves fast, easy to mass, good unit even without spells, EMP with a pretty big radius, and even snipe/cloak it's ridiculously hard to defend your casters against it, so saying you can 'chain storm' is stupid, I've been going HTs for 7-8 months vs Terran and still do. And manage to pull off only 1-2 storms even when I have spread HTs, just because the Terran has like 8 ghosts. Then have to rely on my HTs that I warped in prior to the battle that I kept safe, or use a warp prism. I could go on and on about the imbalance of the difficulty in micro'ing a Protoss army to a Terran army, but I won't. So your point about EMP not being able to win a game outright is stupid, because it can against a HT based army (Or an Infestor army 'probably'?, but I don't play Zerg so I wouldn't know) You're overestimating the abilities of the Ghost unit. You say that they're good units without spells. Can you list any other combat unit that has a non-AOE damage of 10/20 vs Light for 200/100 resources? 2.25 Move Speed is considered Fast now? After the EMP's are cast, Ghosts are essentially Useless vs Protoss. While Templars can morph into a nice Bio wrecking ball called an Archon. 1-2 Storms is able to damage a Bio-Terran's main DPS unit - Marines and potentially kill many of them and damage Marauders fairly well. The supposed "100" damage that EMP does to Protoss units is overkill in many situations. While Storms do not suffer from this. There are pros and cons from both units and abilities. And from what you're saying it is a coin flipped situation based on which player has better Micro of Casters and Army. You talk a lot about Micro-ing a Protoss Army and how hard it is. Are you forgetting how Terrans have to Micro, Spread Bio and Kite to actually be effective against Chargelot/HT/Archon armies? And of course have Ghosts ready to EMP before the enemy Casters can? The game has a micro component and it rewards whichever side micros better. I don't understand why there's so much complaints about it.
There is complaint because ghosts own HTs really really hard. If both sides micro perfectly then ghosts will never lose because they have snipe (10 range) and EMP (10 range with +2 radius for 12 range) while HTs have feedback (9 range) and storm (9 range with +1.5 radius). To break that down, ghosts should NEVER lose to HTs.
Another reason along with that one is in lategame PvT terran can easily scan to kill observers and use that same scan to get a great idea of where all the HTs are. If the protoss doesn't have an observer then he has no idea where the terran's ghosts are. Thus giving the terran a potentiallly great advantage on positioning because of scan. Didn't even mention the annoying tactic where terrans cloak their ghosts and snipe the observer giving them an even greater advantage.
That is why people complain about ghosts.
EDIT: you were also talking about ghosts and how EMP does 100 damage which is overkill in many situations. Well, I can't let you forget that damage is instant while storm is over 4 seconds which gives time to move out of it and negate some of the damage. No terran should ever be tanking storms.
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so this will be in time for MLG? hurray :D
can't wait!
the 5 second nerf will feel so weird T_T hah
really though is 5 seconds that big to help zerg? i mean there has to have been something else they could have changed to nerf 2 rax and such, without having to mess up the terran build order timings.
On September 20 2011 11:10 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 11:06 Arisen wrote:On September 20 2011 11:00 Bagi wrote:On September 20 2011 10:53 Benzzro wrote:On September 20 2011 10:40 Bagi wrote:On September 20 2011 10:14 Eishi_Ki wrote:
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose. Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment. Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation. Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now. Disagree with everything you said in the first paragraph, didn't read the rest. Those units only 'look' bad because they aren't because used. Hellions weren't ever getting used 1-2 months ago, but look at them now. Reapers are used a lot in TvP to scout, so you can't call them gimmicky :/. Banshees have there place in TvT, and sometimes used as a lategame unit to kill off tanks when you have air control. Even raven might be used against burrowed banes or against Mutas in the future, but I don't really know. To call them gimmicky just because we only see them in the early game is stupid. You can occasionally make 1 early reaper to scout the protoss, how is that a viable unit? What if you only built 1 sentry to block the ramp every game and it had no utility besides that, would that make the sentry a well designed unit? It serves a purpose, you can't call it gimmicky. The rest of your post is just hypothetical "what if"-stuff. Well, what if protoss and zerg have just as many options as terrans do, they just haven't been discovered yet and the units look bad because they aren't used correctly? Or maybe we can focus on whats actually happening in the game and call a spade a spade. QXC uses lategame speedreapers a lot in TvP, they're definitely not useless. Banshees are good all game long TvT and TvP and are great harass units in all 3 matchups. The only terran unit that isn't really proven to be amazing is the raven (though you need a mobile detector anyway) and they have been vastly underexplored. QXC is one player and I don't see him winning anything at all. The strat is more fun and cool than actually strong. Banshees are great for harass, lose all viability once a mutalisk or phoenix is built. They're pretty much the definition of a gimmicky unit. You didn't even mention the BC which is probably the worst offender what comes to worthless units.
I have so far only seen 1 correct usage of the word "gimmicky" here on TL, and that is quite disappointing. A gimmicky "thing" is one that does not look quite as effective as it is, and probably has the same usefulness as some other equivalent, which was simply not chosen because the first thing is simply more unique. So a unit (Banshee) that can do harass well but can easily be shut down is not gimmicky.
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Hellion still has a big part to play.In large numbers they can still roast workers easily, and their mobility hasn't change.
It can still act as meat shield in a mech play composition.
Well the good thing is now u cant just drop 2 or 3 hellions and hope it can win you the game.
Bravo patch i would say
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On September 20 2011 11:10 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 11:06 Arisen wrote:On September 20 2011 11:00 Bagi wrote:On September 20 2011 10:53 Benzzro wrote:On September 20 2011 10:40 Bagi wrote:On September 20 2011 10:14 Eishi_Ki wrote:
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose. Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment. Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation. Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now. Disagree with everything you said in the first paragraph, didn't read the rest. Those units only 'look' bad because they aren't because used. Hellions weren't ever getting used 1-2 months ago, but look at them now. Reapers are used a lot in TvP to scout, so you can't call them gimmicky :/. Banshees have there place in TvT, and sometimes used as a lategame unit to kill off tanks when you have air control. Even raven might be used against burrowed banes or against Mutas in the future, but I don't really know. To call them gimmicky just because we only see them in the early game is stupid. You can occasionally make 1 early reaper to scout the protoss, how is that a viable unit? What if you only built 1 sentry to block the ramp every game and it had no utility besides that, would that make the sentry a well designed unit? It serves a purpose, you can't call it gimmicky. The rest of your post is just hypothetical "what if"-stuff. Well, what if protoss and zerg have just as many options as terrans do, they just haven't been discovered yet and the units look bad because they aren't used correctly? Or maybe we can focus on whats actually happening in the game and call a spade a spade. QXC uses lategame speedreapers a lot in TvP, they're definitely not useless. Banshees are good all game long TvT and TvP and are great harass units in all 3 matchups. The only terran unit that isn't really proven to be amazing is the raven (though you need a mobile detector anyway) and they have been vastly underexplored. QXC is one player and I don't see him winning anything at all. Banshees are great for harass, lose all viability once a mutalisk or phoenix is built. They're pretty much the definition of a gimmicky unit. You didn't even mention the BC which is probably the worst offender what comes to worthless units.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/1596_qxc
yeah he never won anything and never all killed IM either. Give me a break.
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On September 20 2011 11:02 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 10:36 Benzzro wrote:On September 20 2011 10:16 Eps wrote:
Can you Kill with Mass EMPs? No. Can you Kill with Mass Fungals/Storms? Yes.
Players don't Mass up Ghosts and win the game outright with them. They're a support unit and their role is a fine one at that. However people could Chain-Fungal units down and Carpet Storms are a Pain.
There's a big difference between the Casters and people aren't content until they're all the same. Dude, that is such a bad argument. It's how they're designed, it's like me saying, "Voidrays can hit both air and ground, banshees only hit ground, HUURRR DUURRR THEIR UNDERPOWERED". HTs and Infestors are support units too, you can't just win outright right with them, If you get enough infestors, sure. But that's why their getting nerf'd. Try massing HTs against a terran player, I'd love to see how you do. The point is, both Zerg and Protoss rely on there casters so much if they go on that tech route, if they get EMP'd or die you pretty just lose the game. And then when you have a unit like the ghost that moves fast, easy to mass, good unit even without spells, EMP with a pretty big radius, and even snipe/cloak it's ridiculously hard to defend your casters against it, so saying you can 'chain storm' is stupid, I've been going HTs for 7-8 months vs Terran and still do. And manage to pull off only 1-2 storms even when I have spread HTs, just because the Terran has like 8 ghosts. Then have to rely on my HTs that I warped in prior to the battle that I kept safe, or use a warp prism. I could go on and on about the imbalance of the difficulty in micro'ing a Protoss army to a Terran army, but I won't. So your point about EMP not being able to win a game outright is stupid, because it can against a HT based army (Or an Infestor army 'probably'?, but I don't play Zerg so I wouldn't know) You're overestimating the abilities of the Ghost unit. You say that they're good units without spells. Can you list any other combat unit that has a non-AOE damage of 10/20 vs Light for 200/100 resources? 2.25 Move Speed is considered Fast now? After the EMP's are cast, Ghosts are essentially Useless vs Protoss. While Templars can morph into a nice Bio wrecking ball called an Archon. 1-2 Storms is able to damage a Bio-Terran's main DPS unit - Marines and potentially kill many of them and damage Marauders fairly well. The supposed "100" damage that EMP does to Protoss units is overkill in many situations. While Storms do not suffer from this. There are pros and cons from both units and abilities. And from what you're saying it is a coin flipped situation based on which player has better Micro of Casters and Army. You talk a lot about Micro-ing a Protoss Army and how hard it is. Are you forgetting how Terrans have to Micro, Spread Bio and Kite to actually be effective against Chargelot/HT/Archon armies? And of course have Ghosts ready to EMP before the enemy Casters can? The game has a micro component and it rewards whichever side micros better. I don't understand why there's so much complaints about it.
Terran has the micro advantage on paper and in reality. They have better vision prior to an engagement(scans), their caster outranges the protoss caster, and good micro can mitigate the damage component of storm. I won't go into splitting because both sides can split against respective spells, but one can be further mitigated via micro after the spell goes off.
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On September 20 2011 11:11 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 11:10 Bagi wrote:On September 20 2011 11:06 Arisen wrote:On September 20 2011 11:00 Bagi wrote:On September 20 2011 10:53 Benzzro wrote:On September 20 2011 10:40 Bagi wrote:On September 20 2011 10:14 Eishi_Ki wrote:
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose. Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment. Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation. Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now. Disagree with everything you said in the first paragraph, didn't read the rest. Those units only 'look' bad because they aren't because used. Hellions weren't ever getting used 1-2 months ago, but look at them now. Reapers are used a lot in TvP to scout, so you can't call them gimmicky :/. Banshees have there place in TvT, and sometimes used as a lategame unit to kill off tanks when you have air control. Even raven might be used against burrowed banes or against Mutas in the future, but I don't really know. To call them gimmicky just because we only see them in the early game is stupid. You can occasionally make 1 early reaper to scout the protoss, how is that a viable unit? What if you only built 1 sentry to block the ramp every game and it had no utility besides that, would that make the sentry a well designed unit? It serves a purpose, you can't call it gimmicky. The rest of your post is just hypothetical "what if"-stuff. Well, what if protoss and zerg have just as many options as terrans do, they just haven't been discovered yet and the units look bad because they aren't used correctly? Or maybe we can focus on whats actually happening in the game and call a spade a spade. QXC uses lategame speedreapers a lot in TvP, they're definitely not useless. Banshees are good all game long TvT and TvP and are great harass units in all 3 matchups. The only terran unit that isn't really proven to be amazing is the raven (though you need a mobile detector anyway) and they have been vastly underexplored. QXC is one player and I don't see him winning anything at all. Banshees are great for harass, lose all viability once a mutalisk or phoenix is built. They're pretty much the definition of a gimmicky unit. You didn't even mention the BC which is probably the worst offender what comes to worthless units. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/1596_qxcyeah he never won anything and never all killed IM either. Give me a break.
Cool story bro, how many speed reapers did you see in those games?
On September 20 2011 11:11 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 11:10 Bagi wrote:On September 20 2011 11:06 Arisen wrote:On September 20 2011 11:00 Bagi wrote:On September 20 2011 10:53 Benzzro wrote:On September 20 2011 10:40 Bagi wrote:On September 20 2011 10:14 Eishi_Ki wrote:
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose. Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment. Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation. Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now. Disagree with everything you said in the first paragraph, didn't read the rest. Those units only 'look' bad because they aren't because used. Hellions weren't ever getting used 1-2 months ago, but look at them now. Reapers are used a lot in TvP to scout, so you can't call them gimmicky :/. Banshees have there place in TvT, and sometimes used as a lategame unit to kill off tanks when you have air control. Even raven might be used against burrowed banes or against Mutas in the future, but I don't really know. To call them gimmicky just because we only see them in the early game is stupid. You can occasionally make 1 early reaper to scout the protoss, how is that a viable unit? What if you only built 1 sentry to block the ramp every game and it had no utility besides that, would that make the sentry a well designed unit? It serves a purpose, you can't call it gimmicky. The rest of your post is just hypothetical "what if"-stuff. Well, what if protoss and zerg have just as many options as terrans do, they just haven't been discovered yet and the units look bad because they aren't used correctly? Or maybe we can focus on whats actually happening in the game and call a spade a spade. QXC uses lategame speedreapers a lot in TvP, they're definitely not useless. Banshees are good all game long TvT and TvP and are great harass units in all 3 matchups. The only terran unit that isn't really proven to be amazing is the raven (though you need a mobile detector anyway) and they have been vastly underexplored. QXC is one player and I don't see him winning anything at all. The strat is more fun and cool than actually strong. Banshees are great for harass, lose all viability once a mutalisk or phoenix is built. They're pretty much the definition of a gimmicky unit. You didn't even mention the BC which is probably the worst offender what comes to worthless units. I have so far only seen 1 correct usage of the word "gimmicky" here on TL, and that is quite disappointing. A gimmicky "thing" is one that does not look quite as effective as it is, and probably has the same usefulness as some other equivalent, which was simply not chosen because the first thing is simply more unique. So a unit (Banshee) that can do harass well but can easily be shut down is not gimmicky.
Sorry I'm obviously not a native english speaker, but what I mean by "gimmicky" is something that relies on surprise and loses all effectiveness once your opponent can do X. Pretty much the opposite of standard which tries to account for all situations.
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On September 20 2011 11:09 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 10:57 Arisen wrote:On September 20 2011 10:52 WinteRR wrote:
How can people say TvZ has serious balance issues when Z has had a sharp incline in winrate % in Korea since the original FG change? Z finally overtook T in Korea for the first time, things look promising on the Z front in TvZ if you ask me - especially considering the latest T nerfs to hellions and barracks (where most zergs were losing games straight up). Watch the July vs MVP game on metalopolis (or Thorzain versus Catz or any demuslim game versus zerg). That's why people are saying there's a problem with TvZ. The July MVP game isn't the best example as july made some questionable decisions, but once terran has a sufficient amount of tank/ghost you can't touch them. Not to discredit your point but you can't really compare Thorzain with Catz...Thorzain is on a whole different level than Catz...
I understand, but put nestea in that situation...what does he do? We havent really seen a strong response to turtle ghost play yet beyond don't let it happen. when attacking into the terran all your units that matter (broods, ultras, infestors, overseer, mutas) get sniped and all the units that don't (roaches, lings, blings) die to tanks.
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EPT
