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blue flame helion nerf. cant wait for this patch! although ill still probably lose to the 1-1-1 lol
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Is anyone discussing the increase build time to barracks? I feel like this will have huge implications for Terran yet I cannot find a blizzard explanation for this nerf nor any detailed discussion as to why it was made.
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On September 20 2011 11:31 Vies wrote:
Is anyone discussing the increase build time to barracks? I feel like this will have huge implications for Terran yet I cannot find a blizzard explanation for this nerf nor any detailed discussion as to why it was made.
Blizzard writes an after patch report detailing the changes and why they made them. It should be out within the week.
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On September 20 2011 11:19 Benzzro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 11:02 Eps wrote:On September 20 2011 10:36 Benzzro wrote:On September 20 2011 10:16 Eps wrote:
Can you Kill with Mass EMPs? No. Can you Kill with Mass Fungals/Storms? Yes.
Players don't Mass up Ghosts and win the game outright with them. They're a support unit and their role is a fine one at that. However people could Chain-Fungal units down and Carpet Storms are a Pain.
There's a big difference between the Casters and people aren't content until they're all the same. Dude, that is such a bad argument. It's how they're designed, it's like me saying, "Voidrays can hit both air and ground, banshees only hit ground, HUURRR DUURRR THEIR UNDERPOWERED". HTs and Infestors are support units too, you can't just win outright right with them, If you get enough infestors, sure. But that's why their getting nerf'd. Try massing HTs against a terran player, I'd love to see how you do. The point is, both Zerg and Protoss rely on there casters so much if they go on that tech route, if they get EMP'd or die you pretty just lose the game. And then when you have a unit like the ghost that moves fast, easy to mass, good unit even without spells, EMP with a pretty big radius, and even snipe/cloak it's ridiculously hard to defend your casters against it, so saying you can 'chain storm' is stupid, I've been going HTs for 7-8 months vs Terran and still do. And manage to pull off only 1-2 storms even when I have spread HTs, just because the Terran has like 8 ghosts. Then have to rely on my HTs that I warped in prior to the battle that I kept safe, or use a warp prism. I could go on and on about the imbalance of the difficulty in micro'ing a Protoss army to a Terran army, but I won't. So your point about EMP not being able to win a game outright is stupid, because it can against a HT based army (Or an Infestor army 'probably'?, but I don't play Zerg so I wouldn't know) You're overestimating the abilities of the Ghost unit. You say that they're good units without spells. Can you list any other combat unit that has a non-AOE damage of 10/20 vs Light for 200/100 resources? 2.25 Move Speed is considered Fast now? After the EMP's are cast, Ghosts are essentially Useless vs Protoss. While Templars can morph into a nice Bio wrecking ball called an Archon. 1-2 Storms is able to damage a Bio-Terran's main DPS unit - Marines and potentially kill many of them and damage Marauders fairly well. The supposed "100" damage that EMP does to Protoss units is overkill in many situations. While Storms do not suffer from this. There are pros and cons from both units and abilities. And from what you're saying it is a coin flipped situation based on which player has better Micro of Casters and Army. You talk a lot about Micro-ing a Protoss Army and how hard it is. Are you forgetting how Terrans have to Micro, Spread Bio and Kite to actually be effective against Chargelot/HT/Archon armies? And of course have Ghosts ready to EMP before the enemy Casters can? The game has a micro component and it rewards whichever side micros better. I don't understand why there's so much complaints about it. Sigh... Did you actually think I meant ghosts are a great unit with no spells? Them being decent units without spells against light units is just a bonus. Infestors and HTs can't even attack. Yes 2.25 is considered fast when It's a HT vs ghost micro battle, very fast. Ghosts are not useless once you cast EMP lol...If you have like 6+ then you should have a lot of energy left over to snipe. Please don't mention Archons, they're practically useless against a lot of ghosts if they get double EMP'd. Yes it's overkill if your bad at using EMP, it's an instant cast, shouldn't be too much trouble. Storms do not stack. Kiting is not hard, splitting is not hard with fast units, snipe has 10 range so you can usually kill the HTs before they're even able to cast a feedback or storm. So no, it's not that hard, especially if you have a lot of scans to spot (Refer to Alicia vs Select). What's your division in SC2 btw? This also reminds me back in the day when Terrans were in denial about the reaper being overpowered, so disgusting to see.
Well, since the terran has to do all the micro vs a Chargelot - Archon - HT based army.. it would be pretty insane if the HT had equal range, use your spare apm (which you have after a-moving your chargelot/archons) to drop your HTs out of a warp prism..... or is that too hard?
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On September 20 2011 11:23 Arisen wrote:
Face it, terran has much better design overall. I'm sure that will be fixed with subsequent expansions, but for the time being, it's true.
I never claimed the units aren't used at all, I said that they are limited beyond the scope of having more early game options. Maybe having numerous openers and nifty things to do with your units constitutes as good design to you, its really a relative term anyway. I'd rather have units that have multiple uses and long-term viability. Reapers, ravens and BC's are units that I would consider extremely poorly designed overall.
Besides, TvT is a weird match-up where many terran units have a limited niche in the lategame, even the banshee/BC/raven. Still, its just one match-up, and I'd rather be able to see something else than MMM TvP and marine tank TvZ outside timing pushes before I call the race really well designed.
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its funny when you guys watch the best terran "IMmvp" play with ghosts and require a nerf asap cause it makes tvz "imbalanced"
news flash, you guys will never play immvp so dont worry about it yet, blizz will adjust ghosts if it's 100% needed, and they obv don't think so yet
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On September 20 2011 11:32 Pseudo- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 11:19 Benzzro wrote:On September 20 2011 11:02 Eps wrote:On September 20 2011 10:36 Benzzro wrote:On September 20 2011 10:16 Eps wrote:
Can you Kill with Mass EMPs? No. Can you Kill with Mass Fungals/Storms? Yes.
Players don't Mass up Ghosts and win the game outright with them. They're a support unit and their role is a fine one at that. However people could Chain-Fungal units down and Carpet Storms are a Pain.
There's a big difference between the Casters and people aren't content until they're all the same. Dude, that is such a bad argument. It's how they're designed, it's like me saying, "Voidrays can hit both air and ground, banshees only hit ground, HUURRR DUURRR THEIR UNDERPOWERED". HTs and Infestors are support units too, you can't just win outright right with them, If you get enough infestors, sure. But that's why their getting nerf'd. Try massing HTs against a terran player, I'd love to see how you do. The point is, both Zerg and Protoss rely on there casters so much if they go on that tech route, if they get EMP'd or die you pretty just lose the game. And then when you have a unit like the ghost that moves fast, easy to mass, good unit even without spells, EMP with a pretty big radius, and even snipe/cloak it's ridiculously hard to defend your casters against it, so saying you can 'chain storm' is stupid, I've been going HTs for 7-8 months vs Terran and still do. And manage to pull off only 1-2 storms even when I have spread HTs, just because the Terran has like 8 ghosts. Then have to rely on my HTs that I warped in prior to the battle that I kept safe, or use a warp prism. I could go on and on about the imbalance of the difficulty in micro'ing a Protoss army to a Terran army, but I won't. So your point about EMP not being able to win a game outright is stupid, because it can against a HT based army (Or an Infestor army 'probably'?, but I don't play Zerg so I wouldn't know) You're overestimating the abilities of the Ghost unit. You say that they're good units without spells. Can you list any other combat unit that has a non-AOE damage of 10/20 vs Light for 200/100 resources? 2.25 Move Speed is considered Fast now? After the EMP's are cast, Ghosts are essentially Useless vs Protoss. While Templars can morph into a nice Bio wrecking ball called an Archon. 1-2 Storms is able to damage a Bio-Terran's main DPS unit - Marines and potentially kill many of them and damage Marauders fairly well. The supposed "100" damage that EMP does to Protoss units is overkill in many situations. While Storms do not suffer from this. There are pros and cons from both units and abilities. And from what you're saying it is a coin flipped situation based on which player has better Micro of Casters and Army. You talk a lot about Micro-ing a Protoss Army and how hard it is. Are you forgetting how Terrans have to Micro, Spread Bio and Kite to actually be effective against Chargelot/HT/Archon armies? And of course have Ghosts ready to EMP before the enemy Casters can? The game has a micro component and it rewards whichever side micros better. I don't understand why there's so much complaints about it. Sigh... Did you actually think I meant ghosts are a great unit with no spells? Them being decent units without spells against light units is just a bonus. Infestors and HTs can't even attack. Yes 2.25 is considered fast when It's a HT vs ghost micro battle, very fast. Ghosts are not useless once you cast EMP lol...If you have like 6+ then you should have a lot of energy left over to snipe. Please don't mention Archons, they're practically useless against a lot of ghosts if they get double EMP'd. Yes it's overkill if your bad at using EMP, it's an instant cast, shouldn't be too much trouble. Storms do not stack. Kiting is not hard, splitting is not hard with fast units, snipe has 10 range so you can usually kill the HTs before they're even able to cast a feedback or storm. So no, it's not that hard, especially if you have a lot of scans to spot (Refer to Alicia vs Select). What's your division in SC2 btw? This also reminds me back in the day when Terrans were in denial about the reaper being overpowered, so disgusting to see. Well, since the terran has to do all the micro vs a Zealot - Archon - HT based army.. it would be pretty insane if the HT had equal range, use your spare apm (which you have after a-moving your Zealot/archons) to drop your HTs out of a warp prism.....
Actually it wouldn't be HTs are slow anyway. I already do use a warp prism. Every game. Nowadays you have to use a warp prism if you want to use a HT based army, and hey, I win half my PvT's, point is there vs not great players, put me up against someone like Puma and I don't think a warp prism is going to solve all my problems.
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I can't believe everyone is forgetting the biggest news
THE NEW PRIVACY FEATURES
MLG ORLANDO REPLAYS YES PLZ
STEALING PRO BUILDS IS DA BEST
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On September 20 2011 11:31 Vies wrote:
Is anyone discussing the increase build time to barracks? I feel like this will have huge implications for Terran yet I cannot find a blizzard explanation for this nerf nor any detailed discussion as to why it was made.
mainly for 11/11 2 rax... I'm not sure why your whining so much about a 5 sec nerf. it's not a big deal
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the server is down now right?
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On September 20 2011 11:27 Loxley wrote:And remember kids, every buildtime (except supply depot/cc) of terrans has been nerfed by 5 seconds. Since you need a barracks to make anything.. So in a way, ghosts are 5sec later from now on 
5 seconds game time which is about 3 seconds real time. You know the difference three seconds makes?
Lets just say, T's wont need to worry about changing their timing windows.
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On September 20 2011 11:43 SoKHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 11:31 Vies wrote:
Is anyone discussing the increase build time to barracks? I feel like this will have huge implications for Terran yet I cannot find a blizzard explanation for this nerf nor any detailed discussion as to why it was made. mainly for 11/11 2 rax... I'm not sure why your whining so much about a 5 sec nerf. it's not a big deal
Yeah. It's actually okay for me, cuz when I did my 11/12 2rax, my rax would finish a few seconds before 14th SCV, and I had to cut either scv or marine production for a couple seconds to make supply. Now it will all be fine :O
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Wrong way to go about the infestor nerf but whatever. Godspeed patch 1.4! save the gsl protoss xD
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What the hell do I do now as Terran? Switching race is sounding good!
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I hope these are the only changes needed for awhile ._.
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On September 20 2011 11:49 Qibla wrote:
What the hell do I do now as Terran? Switching race is sounding good!
i hope ur just joking
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On September 20 2011 11:49 Qibla wrote:
What the hell do I do now as Terran? Switching race is sounding good!
QQ! Yay! Man up dude.
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On September 20 2011 11:47 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 11:43 SoKHo wrote:On September 20 2011 11:31 Vies wrote:
Is anyone discussing the increase build time to barracks? I feel like this will have huge implications for Terran yet I cannot find a blizzard explanation for this nerf nor any detailed discussion as to why it was made. mainly for 11/11 2 rax... I'm not sure why your whining so much about a 5 sec nerf. it's not a big deal Yeah. It's actually okay for me, cuz when I did my 11/12 2rax, my rax would finish a few seconds before 14th SCV, and I had to cut either scv or marine production for a couple seconds to make supply. Now it will all be fine :O
I said "I feel like this will have huge implications for Terran." That does not even imply I play Terran nor does it imply i'm whining about it but whatever. Thanks for the explanation because blizz seem to have failed to explain it.
As for "It's not a big deal." You have to think further than just the 2 rax vs zerg. Think of every units that Terran requires a barracks for..... That's every unit. If we want a reaper its still the 25 seconds tech lab + 5 seconds later. This goes for every unit including tech past the barracks. Everything that terran can do is atleast 5 seconds later. This gives every race more time to prepare for absolutely everything terran can do. I can't see how this will not have drastic implications.
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On September 20 2011 11:29 Ftrunkz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 10:29 Arisen wrote:On September 20 2011 09:21 Ftrunkz wrote:On September 20 2011 08:54 Arisen wrote:
Well, ghosts didn't get a nerf, that's super O.o
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the infestor nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and protoss is still pretty much unbeatable late game - infestors just give a few strong options for midgame. Good players can absolutely deal with infestors and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game phoenix, mothership, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about infestors and not being able to auto win versus zerg on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the ghost is killing everyfucking thing. Snipe's range is so insane and the ghost is now cheap on gas and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and zerg have and can cloak and snipe obs/overseers to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that zergs and protoss have tried everything and the ghost is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the infestor in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because zerg units are so cost inefficient (baring perhaps the BL). Terrans literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of ghosts in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both hive tech options as well as lair tech units (mutas and infestors get destroyed by snipe- they don't even need to use EMP) and every protoss unit with EMP.
Come on blizzard; please focus on stuff that actually needs attention rather than making changes for casual players :/ This is actually the most "Paper is fine and completely balanced, but for fucks sake rock is OBVIOUSLY a HUGE problem -Scissors" post i've seen in a while, kudos on the balance whine so whiney it actually made me giggle! For a laugh, Imma do the protoss version of what u just said except with the HT a few patches ago (with italics marking the only changes i made!). Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the High Templar nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and Terran is still Way too strong early-mid game - High Templar just give a few strong options for Protoss lategame. Good players can absolutely deal with High Templar and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game ghosts, battlecruiser, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about High Templar and not being able to auto win versus Protoss on ladder so they nerfed it. However, the Infestor is killing everyfucking thing. Nerual Parasites range is so insane and the Infestor is Cost effective vs everything and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and terran have and can Burrow and snipe Workers/bases with Infested terrans to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that terran and protoss have tried everything and the Infestor is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the High templar in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because Protoss units are so expensive we need strong AoE to make up for our lack of numbers. Zergs literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of Infestors in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both Stargate options as well as robo tech units ( Collosi and immortals get destroyed by Neurals- they don't even need to use fungal) and every terran unit with Fungal Growth. That was kinda fun :D. Well, all my stuff was true, all yours wasn't? Name me a game where the protoss played well, didn't make any major mistakes and secured 3 base without huge losses and still lost versus zerg? For every 1 game you give me, I can give you 100 games of protoss rolling a zerg because he didn't have a game winning advantage going into lategame. That's just the way the matchup works, protoss lategame versus zerg is pretty much untouchable, so you have to win in the midgame. And while I think that reflects poor game design, it's the way things are. So why now is it justifiable to nerf the major component to making midgame zerg armies strong versus protoss when protoss have proven to be struggling in every single major tournament as of late. As to comparing the ghost to the infestor; I don't know what to say about that. You're wrong, I suppose is the long and short of it. Yeah, if you could fungal growth and NP unhindered, I guess the infestor is on par with the ghost, but you can't. Tanks and ghosts outrange infestors by a ton, negating out spellcasters and snipe is equal range to brood lords, so they can be delt with safely and snipe is fantastic versus ultralisks as well. Ghosts can cast every spell cloaked and can snipe mobile detection before they can be targeted so they can remain untargatable. Sure, you can cast IT's burrowed...that does a lot versus a late game army with a ton of splash damage :/ (that is assuming they're bad enough to not have detection anyway, which zerg doesn't have a way of sniping easily... The difference is I can give you a fuckton of examples of people dealing with infestors, wehre as you can't give me a lot of examples of people dealing with late game ghosts (at least ZvT). That was kinda fun... My point was your post (and this new one) are both INCREDIBLY biased towards your race in literally every way possible and any argument you make about literally anything can be thrown back at you with similar biased logic from any one of the other races point of views. I honestly fail to see any part of my post that spoke less truth than any of your opinions... Hell i'll do it again just for kicks... Well, all my stuff was true, all yours wasn't? Name me a game where the Zerg played well, didn't make any major mistakes and punished a protoss player accordingly if he took 3 bases with equal econ and still lost to a zerg? For every 1 game you give me, I can give you 100 games of zerg rolling a protoss because he had an econ advantage going into lategame and rolled over him with infestor broodlord. That's just the way the matchup works, zerg cripples protoss going into late-game so the protoss cant do anything, so you have to win in the midgame with timing pushes or pray the zerg's a retard. And while I think that reflects poor game design, it's the way things are. So it is perfectly justifiable to nerf the major component to making midgame zerg armies strong versus protoss when protoss have proven to be able to deal with infesotrs fine? As to comparing the ghost to the infestor; I don't know what to say about that. You're wrong, I suppose is the long and short of it. Yeah, if you could fungal growth and NP unhindered, I guess the infestor is on par with the ghost, but you can with broodlord support. broodlords and infestors outrange templar and stalker by a ton, and infestors fungalling negating out Our ability to blink and get under or away from broodlords and Neural is equal range to Collosi, so they can be delt with safely and neural is fantastic versus HT to feedbacking other HT as well. infestors can Hide behind broodslords, meaning you have to suicide a large amount of units just to have a chance at killing, combined with fungalling and running away or just burrowing make them practically untargatable. Sure, you can try to use your mobility to get around the slow zerg army, the only problem is that our most mobile units are all countered by lings which are even more mobile, and since broodlord infestor is a gas heavy combo, ling complement the combo perfectly allowing the zerg to shutdown any sort of harassment easily if he isnt a retardThe difference is I can give you a fuckton of examples of people dealing with greedy protosses trying to take a third and getting punished ridiculously hard, whilst you cant give me a lot of examples of people dealing with lategame broodlord infestor (atleast pvz)But seriously, my point isn't that my edit of your posts holds true to what my opinion is, which I think is the part that you're missing, it's that my arguments, that seem so ridiculously stupid and obviously wrong to you, are actually on the same level of biased bullshit as yours are, all I've done is edited a few words to make it reflect the opposite side of the stories view, hence why EVERYONE but other butthurt zerg players will laugh at your post, my edits of your post, and the idea that people can actually be that 1-sided in their approach to sc2.
But seriously, my point is that I can actually produce a ton of games where a protoss player gets his 3 base secured with colossus/HT even if the zerg is pressuring and wins easily. I can also give you a lot of examples of protoss beating infestor broodlord quite easily.
Ffs, I can give you plenty of examples of combat-ex rolling infestor brood lord (at high grandmaster) with pretty much pure blink stalkers and combat ex is fucking horrible.
RSVP and Kiwikaki use motherships, and they roll zergs. Some people use phoenix and lift infestors and just destroy the rest of the army.
Yeah, I can totally understand your frustrations, PvZ midgame is a bitch. However, lategame ZvP is a bitch (some top players not too long ago wouldn't practice the matchup because it was unlosable unless you did something retarded). That's why EVERYONE but other butthurt people who can't deal with infestors will laugh at your post, and the idea that anyone can be that ignorant.
Also, you turned a TvZ discussion somehow right back to ZvP, so I don't know how that fits in...
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On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote:
YES
YES
YES
YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion
Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
My thoughts exactly.
Now I can return to my tank marine without getting pwnt.
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EPT
