General Unit vision up ramps has been reduced by 1.
PROTOSS Immortal Attack range increased from 5 to 6. Mothership Acceleration increased from 0.3 to 1.375. The Mothership's Cloaking Field no longer cloaks all units instantaneously, but rather adds units to the cloak field over time (maximum of 25 per second). This should alleviate "Mothership Lag" issue when a Mothership comes online. Stalker Blink research time increased from 110 to 140. Warp Prism Shields increased from 40 to 100.
TERRAN Barracks Build time increased from 60 to 65. Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5. Raven Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953.
ZERG Infestor Fungal Growth damage changed from 36 (+30% armored) to 30 (40 vs Armored). Neural Parasite range decreased from 9 to 7. Overseer Morph cost decreased from 50/100 to 50/50. Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125. Ultralisk Build time decreased from 70 to 55.
On September 20 2011 08:43 Gheed wrote: While we mourn the loss of the infestor don't forget one of the more important changes:
-Game Options
Added three privacy settings to the Options menu under the Battle.net section.
Only allow friends to send me invites.
Only allow friends to send me chat messages.
Set status to Busy when playing a game.
Maybe player streams will be a bit more watchable now that they won't have to waste time with idiots messaging them.
Well it is official, time to switch to Protoss. I agree with the overseer , ultralisk and fungal change, but the neural parasite change is really going to make late game really hard for zerg I think...Like when the map gets cut in half... T_T
On September 20 2011 08:28 LagT_T wrote: 50 gas for a detector? Preposterous!
Terran has it for 75 minerals. Seems like a better deal! But wait the other one moves!!! wait but the other one shoots air!! wait the other one contaminates and has shorter creation length!! yeah but the other only needs engi bay (t1.5) while the other needs t2!!!!
Almost as if they are different races and you can't uni-laterally compare stuff with any worth-while conclusion.
On September 20 2011 08:27 GGzerG wrote: Well it is official, time to switch to Protoss. I agree with the overseer , ultralisk and fungal change, but the neural parasite change is really going to make late game really hard for zerg I think...Like when the map gets cut in half... T_T
only in zvp perhaps, where you'll need to flank in order to land neural parasites
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
Did you ever try the depots at diagonals sim city? SCVs can pass through but hellions cant, increased the time you had to before mass SCV deaths hugely so you could kill harass off.
I ask cuz I know you play with good peeps, so if you tried and it failed that means its not viable etc.
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
what was wrong with hellions in TvT? I loved watching the mech style of the new TvT...
enjoy watching it all you want, but playing a matchup where more than half your games involve one player winning because they snuck a hellion drop past their opponent and instakilled 15 scvs got extremely stupid to play
wow, so happy its finally coming, waited sooo long for it, almost tears of joy as a protoss player!! Although I kind of feel bad for some of the toss players in code A who will play before the patch hits in Korea haha T_T
On September 20 2011 08:37 Sarang wrote: The most important question is when it's going to hit Korea.
Personally, I hope tomorrow, I don't want anything screwing with the players tonight.
I hope it hits NA soon though, I'm looking forward to playing a new patch. =)
from experiance it seems tomorrow will be eu/na then on wednesday it seems that is when korea gets it or thats what I feel like I have seen in the past but it shouldn't be tonight.
While we mourn the loss of the infestor don't forget one of the more important changes:
Game Options Added three privacy settings to the Options menu under the Battle.net section. Only allow friends to send me invites. Only allow friends to send me chat messages. Set status to Busy when playing a game.
Maybe player streams will be a bit more watchable now that they won't have to waste time with idiots messaging them.
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
what was wrong with hellions in TvT? I loved watching the mech style of the new TvT...
enjoy watching it all you want, but playing a matchup where more than half your games involve one player winning because they snuck a hellion drop past their opponent and instakilled 15 scvs got extremely stupid to play
haha gotcha and I understand I understand because Terrans do the same thing to me in ZvT!!!
On September 20 2011 08:28 LagT_T wrote: 50 gas for a detector? Preposterous!
50 Energy for an instant detector anywhere on the map? Now THAT's preporsterous. Plus the very important fact that Zerg is way more spread out than either Protoss or Terran, which is why they had free detection in Broodwar.
On September 20 2011 08:39 arbitrageur wrote: Roach infestor is officially dead.
Time for some Ultra combos with the extra seconds saved?!
Unless ultra is Lair tech, you're kidding yourself.
Ultras are so bad and expensive that I think they could be Lair without breaking too much. D:
Zerg would get be able to figure out its own version of Terran's "Thor rush", and it would probably be about 3x less successful and 30x more hilarious.
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the infestor nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and protoss is still pretty much unbeatable late game - infestors just give a few strong options for midgame. Good players can absolutely deal with infestors and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game phoenix, mothership, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about infestors and not being able to auto win versus zerg on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the ghost is killing everyfucking thing. Snipe's range is so insane and the ghost is now cheap on gas and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and zerg have and can cloak and snipe obs/overseers to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that zergs and protoss have tried everything and the ghost is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the infestor in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because zerg units are so cost inefficient (baring perhaps the BL). Terrans literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of ghosts in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both hive tech options as well as lair tech units (mutas and infestors get destroyed by snipe- they don't even need to use EMP) and every protoss unit with EMP.
Come on blizzard; please focus on stuff that actually needs attention rather than making changes for casual players :/
On September 20 2011 08:54 Arisen wrote: Well, ghosts didn't get a nerf, that's super O.o
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the infestor nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and protoss is still pretty much unbeatable late game - infestors just give a few strong options for midgame. Good players can absolutely deal with infestors and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game phoenix, mothership, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about infestors and not being able to auto win versus zerg on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the ghost is killing everyfucking thing. Snipe's range is so insane and the ghost is now cheap on gas and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and zerg have and can cloak and snipe obs/overseers to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that zergs and protoss have tried everything and the ghost is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the infestor in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because zerg units are so cost inefficient (baring perhaps the BL). Terrans literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of ghosts in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both hive tech options as well as lair tech units (mutas and infestors get destroyed by snipe- they don't even need to use EMP) and every protoss unit with EMP.
Come on blizzard; please focus on stuff that actually needs attention rather than making changes for casual players :/
I agree protoss is pretty unbeatable now, TvZ has the serious balance issues.
Sad to see the warp prism change actually go through, especially after seeing HerO vs IdrA. The issue was never that it died to quickly, it was too slow to be all over the map, but there is a speed upgrade for that.
On September 20 2011 08:57 Oreo7 wrote: I agree protoss is pretty unbeatable now...
Was this supposed to be sarcastic? Protoss still wins lategame the vast majority of the time unless they fuck up pretty bad versus zerg. Sure, midgame was a lot more challenging for protoss, but it needed to be that way, because if it goes to lategame protoss unit efficiency with colossus/ht/blink (and god help you if they had a mothership) and the availablity of WG's to instantly replenish half your stalkers you lost in the big battle just makes it pretty much a loss for zerg. You have to win in the midgame ZvP so it makes sense zergs had a really strong midgame.
Excited for this. I think what will happen though is Protoss will learn more abusive timings or just learn the fact that if they sit back and macro it can get them extremely far. Will have to see how it plays out, though. Definitely agree with the infestor change as zerg besides the NP nerf.
On September 20 2011 08:32 Golgotha wrote: Terran got nerfed hard. feel real bad for them. zerg is meh, and Toss came up the winner of this patch.
terran avoided a ghost nerf, serious, they got it easy.
how is a 50 percent decrease in hellion damage "easy"? especially when hellions were becoming a staple unit in TvZ and TvT.
they got it easy, believe me.
but serious Blizz, why no ghost change????? this unit is going to be killing everything till HoTS...
It's almost as if they don't believe that ghosts need to be changed.
Amazing I know.
On September 20 2011 08:32 Golgotha wrote: Terran got nerfed hard. feel real bad for them. zerg is meh, and Toss came up the winner of this patch.
Not really.
While the 5 rax thing triggers my OCD and is annoying, terrans were probably the happiest of the three races that hellions got nerfed. That change will hopefully save the awesome TvT matchup into degenerating into stupidity.
LOL people underestimating the Immortal buff. Range is one of the things that really changes how the game works, Remember when Roaches were 3 range? And how good they became when they added 1 range?
Im not going to say its going to make Immortals OP or that it will solve all P problems, but its still quite a buff. Can´t wait to see pros using it
Immortal changes will make both defending and performing various allins either but makes no difference past the midgame when immortals become completely obsolete (ever heard of the ghost?).
On September 20 2011 08:54 Arisen wrote: Well, ghosts didn't get a nerf, that's super O.o
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the infestor nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and protoss is still pretty much unbeatable late game - infestors just give a few strong options for midgame. Good players can absolutely deal with infestors and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game phoenix, mothership, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about infestors and not being able to auto win versus zerg on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the ghost is killing everyfucking thing. Snipe's range is so insane and the ghost is now cheap on gas and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and zerg have and can cloak and snipe obs/overseers to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that zergs and protoss have tried everything and the ghost is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the infestor in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because zerg units are so cost inefficient (baring perhaps the BL). Terrans literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of ghosts in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both hive tech options as well as lair tech units (mutas and infestors get destroyed by snipe- they don't even need to use EMP) and every protoss unit with EMP.
Come on blizzard; please focus on stuff that actually needs attention rather than making changes for casual players :/
This is actually the most "Paper is fine and completely balanced, but for fucks sake rock is OBVIOUSLY a HUGE problem -Scissors" post i've seen in a while, kudos on the balance whine so whiney it actually made me giggle! For a laugh, Imma do the protoss version of what u just said except with the HT a few patches ago (with italics marking the only changes i made!).
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the High Templar nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and Terran is still Way too strong early-mid game - High Templar just give a few strong options for Protoss lategame. Good players can absolutely deal with High Templar and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game ghosts, battlecruiser, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about High Templar and not being able to auto win versus Protoss on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the Infestor is killing everyfucking thing. Nerual Parasites range is so insane and the Infestor is Cost effective vs everything and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and terran have and can Burrow and snipe Workers/bases with Infested terrans to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that terran and protoss have tried everything and the Infestor is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the High templar in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because Protoss units are so expensive we need strong AoE to make up for our lack of numbers. Zergs literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of Infestors in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both Stargate options as well as robo tech units (Collosi and immortals get destroyed by Neurals- they don't even need to use fungal) and every terran unit with Fungal Growth.
On September 20 2011 08:54 Arisen wrote: Well, ghosts didn't get a nerf, that's super O.o
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the infestor nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and protoss is still pretty much unbeatable late game - infestors just give a few strong options for midgame. Good players can absolutely deal with infestors and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game phoenix, mothership, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about infestors and not being able to auto win versus zerg on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the ghost is killing everyfucking thing. Snipe's range is so insane and the ghost is now cheap on gas and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and zerg have and can cloak and snipe obs/overseers to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that zergs and protoss have tried everything and the ghost is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the infestor in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because zerg units are so cost inefficient (baring perhaps the BL). Terrans literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of ghosts in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both hive tech options as well as lair tech units (mutas and infestors get destroyed by snipe- they don't even need to use EMP) and every protoss unit with EMP.
Come on blizzard; please focus on stuff that actually needs attention rather than making changes for casual players :/
This is actually the most "Paper is fine and completely balanced, but for fucks sake rock is OBVIOUSLY a HUGE problem -Scissors" post i've seen in a while, kudos on the balance whine so whiney it actually made me giggle! For a laugh, Imma do the protoss version of what u just said except with the HT a few patches ago (with italics marking the only changes i made!).
Infestor nerf is fine, because it makes them more of a support unit now. Neural range is a bit crappy, but the real problem is that Ghosts still have 10 range on snipe and emp. Feedback is ok because fungal is still 9 range so it can be combated.
Hellion nerf ftw, I think Ravens will be too strong now though.
On September 20 2011 08:54 Arisen wrote: Well, ghosts didn't get a nerf, that's super O.o
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the infestor nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and protoss is still pretty much unbeatable late game - infestors just give a few strong options for midgame. Good players can absolutely deal with infestors and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game phoenix, mothership, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about infestors and not being able to auto win versus zerg on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the ghost is killing everyfucking thing. Snipe's range is so insane and the ghost is now cheap on gas and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and zerg have and can cloak and snipe obs/overseers to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that zergs and protoss have tried everything and the ghost is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the infestor in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because zerg units are so cost inefficient (baring perhaps the BL). Terrans literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of ghosts in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both hive tech options as well as lair tech units (mutas and infestors get destroyed by snipe- they don't even need to use EMP) and every protoss unit with EMP.
Come on blizzard; please focus on stuff that actually needs attention rather than making changes for casual players :/
This is actually the most "Paper is fine and completely balanced, but for fucks sake rock is OBVIOUSLY a HUGE problem -Scissors" post i've seen in a while, kudos on the balance whine so whiney it actually made me giggle! For a laugh, Imma do the protoss version of what u just said except with the HT a few patches ago (with italics marking the only changes i made!).
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the High Templar nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and Terran is still Way too strong early-mid game - High Templar just give a few strong options for Protoss lategame. Good players can absolutely deal with High Templar and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game ghosts, battlecruiser, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about High Templar and not being able to auto win versus Protoss on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the Infestor is killing everyfucking thing. Nerual Parasites range is so insane and the Infestor is Cost effective vs everything and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and terran have and can Burrow and snipe Workers/bases with Infested terrans to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that terran and protoss have tried everything and the Infestor is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the High templar in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because Protoss units are so expensive we need strong AoE to make up for our lack of numbers. Zergs literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of Infestors in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both Stargate options as well as robo tech units (Collosi and immortals get destroyed by Neurals- they don't even need to use fungal) and every terran unit with Fungal Growth.
so basically zerg got hardcore nerfed, protoss got good buffs and terran minimal changes that dont affect tvz either way. protoss did kinda need a buff but nerfing the alredy weakest race wont serve any good blizzard is pretty hardcore retarded, noone ever complained about np, noone had problems with np it was what made infestors actually useful and pretty versile, now they are almost the same as meele units and pretty shity. the fungal nerf was needed, the np should be atleast 8.2 range
well u know blizzard and balance, remove metapolis from ladder + put it on the tournament pool. either they are really smart, or to smart for us to comprehend
On September 20 2011 08:54 Arisen wrote: Well, ghosts didn't get a nerf, that's super O.o
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the infestor nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and protoss is still pretty much unbeatable late game - infestors just give a few strong options for midgame. Good players can absolutely deal with infestors and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game phoenix, mothership, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about infestors and not being able to auto win versus zerg on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the ghost is killing everyfucking thing. Snipe's range is so insane and the ghost is now cheap on gas and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and zerg have and can cloak and snipe obs/overseers to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that zergs and protoss have tried everything and the ghost is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the infestor in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because zerg units are so cost inefficient (baring perhaps the BL). Terrans literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of ghosts in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both hive tech options as well as lair tech units (mutas and infestors get destroyed by snipe- they don't even need to use EMP) and every protoss unit with EMP.
Come on blizzard; please focus on stuff that actually needs attention rather than making changes for casual players :/
This is actually the most "Paper is fine and completely balanced, but for fucks sake rock is OBVIOUSLY a HUGE problem -Scissors" post i've seen in a while, kudos on the balance whine so whiney it actually made me giggle! For a laugh, Imma do the protoss version of what u just said except with the HT a few patches ago (with italics marking the only changes i made!).
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the High Templar nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and Terran is still Way too strong early-mid game - High Templar just give a few strong options for Protoss lategame. Good players can absolutely deal with High Templar and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game ghosts, battlecruiser, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about High Templar and not being able to auto win versus Protoss on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the Infestor is killing everyfucking thing. Nerual Parasites range is so insane and the Infestor is Cost effective vs everything and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and terran have and can Burrow and snipe Workers/bases with Infested terrans to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that terran and protoss have tried everything and the Infestor is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the High templar in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because Protoss units are so expensive we need strong AoE to make up for our lack of numbers. Zergs literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of Infestors in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both Stargate options as well as robo tech units (Collosi and immortals get destroyed by Neurals- they don't even need to use fungal) and every terran unit with Fungal Growth.
On September 20 2011 08:54 Arisen wrote: Well, ghosts didn't get a nerf, that's super O.o
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the infestor nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and protoss is still pretty much unbeatable late game - infestors just give a few strong options for midgame. Good players can absolutely deal with infestors and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game phoenix, mothership, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about infestors and not being able to auto win versus zerg on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the ghost is killing everyfucking thing. Snipe's range is so insane and the ghost is now cheap on gas and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and zerg have and can cloak and snipe obs/overseers to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that zergs and protoss have tried everything and the ghost is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the infestor in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because zerg units are so cost inefficient (baring perhaps the BL). Terrans literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of ghosts in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both hive tech options as well as lair tech units (mutas and infestors get destroyed by snipe- they don't even need to use EMP) and every protoss unit with EMP.
Come on blizzard; please focus on stuff that actually needs attention rather than making changes for casual players :/
This is actually the most "Paper is fine and completely balanced, but for fucks sake rock is OBVIOUSLY a HUGE problem -Scissors" post i've seen in a while, kudos on the balance whine so whiney it actually made me giggle! For a laugh, Imma do the protoss version of what u just said except with the HT a few patches ago (with italics marking the only changes i made!).
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the High Templar nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and Terran is still Way too strong early-mid game - High Templar just give a few strong options for Protoss lategame. Good players can absolutely deal with High Templar and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game ghosts, battlecruiser, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about High Templar and not being able to auto win versus Protoss on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the Infestor is killing everyfucking thing. Nerual Parasites range is so insane and the Infestor is Cost effective vs everything and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and terran have and can Burrow and snipe Workers/bases with Infested terrans to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that terran and protoss have tried everything and the Infestor is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the High templar in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because Protoss units are so expensive we need strong AoE to make up for our lack of numbers. Zergs literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of Infestors in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both Stargate options as well as robo tech units (Collosi and immortals get destroyed by Neurals- they don't even need to use fungal) and every terran unit with Fungal Growth.
From a competitor's point of view it's really best if patches are implemented the week after the finals of a big tournament or so, not in the middle of one. If they release it after the Ro32 of Code A then already half the players are out!
On September 20 2011 09:27 ownyaah wrote: so basically zerg got hardcore nerfed, protoss got good buffs and terran minimal changes that dont affect tvz either way. protoss did kinda need a buff but nerfing the alredy weakest race wont serve any good blizzard is pretty hardcore retarded, noone ever complained about np, noone had problems with np it was what made infestors actually useful and pretty versile, now they are almost the same as meele units and pretty shity. the fungal nerf was needed, the np should be atleast 8.2 range
well u know blizzard and balance, remove metapolis from ladder + put it on the tournament pool. either they are really smart, or to smart for us to comprehend
man TvZ will get better since blue flame hellion wont kill your dear drones that ez and in top of that +5 seconds to barracks is huge to delay 2rax allins vs Z and at the same time u will scout a little longer in terran base...
I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build.
On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote: I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build.
On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote: I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build.
On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote: Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda
this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss.
Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down.
Marauders are good too... wait what units of terran sucks?
None, as is intended. Why would there ever be a sucky unit in a competitive multiplayer game ever?
(also reapers are pretty shitty, and BC's aren't that good outside of TvT)
My point is. Just because people are bitching about unit X, which once upon a time was the marauder, won't necessarily mean it'll get nerfed. People will learn to deal with ghosts eventually, just like they did with marauders.
On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote: I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build.
On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote: Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda
this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss.
Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down.
Marauders are good too... wait what units of terran sucks?
Ummmmmmm..... Reapers are about as close as you'll get I think, and they can still fuck shit up.
On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote: I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build.
On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote: Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda
this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss.
Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down.
Marauders are good too... wait what units of terran sucks?
None, as is intended. Why would there ever be a sucky unit in a competitive multiplayer game ever?
(also reapers are pretty shitty, and BC's aren't that good outside of TvT)
My point is. Just because people are bitching about unit X, which once upon a time was the marauder, won't necessarily mean it'll get nerfed. People will learn to deal with ghosts eventually, just like they did with marauders.
On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote: I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build.
On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote: Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda
this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss.
Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down.
Marauders are good too... wait what units of terran sucks?
None, as is intended. Why would there ever be a sucky unit in a competitive multiplayer game ever?
(also reapers are pretty shitty, and BC's aren't that good outside of TvT)
My point is. Just because people are bitching about unit X, which once upon a time was the marauder, won't necessarily mean it'll get nerfed. People will learn to deal with ghosts eventually, just like they did with marauders.
On September 20 2011 09:43 LtLolburger wrote: Hopefully HotS will introduce some variety in protoss play, because they ain't getting anything from blizzard atm.
Warpprism buff and Immortal buff are really useful imho
On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote: I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build.
On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote: Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda
this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss.
Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down.
Marauders are good too... wait what units of terran sucks?
Ummmmmmm..... Reapers are about as close as you'll get I think, and they can still fuck shit up.
On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote: I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build.
On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote: Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda
this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss.
Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down.
Marauders are good too... wait what units of terran sucks?
None, as is intended. Why would there ever be a sucky unit in a competitive multiplayer game ever?
(also reapers are pretty shitty, and BC's aren't that good outside of TvT)
My point is. Just because people are bitching about unit X, which once upon a time was the marauder, won't necessarily mean it'll get nerfed. People will learn to deal with ghosts eventually, just like they did with marauders.
Reading comprehension? Stating which units suck or not has nothing to do with my point.
Also, Phoenixes and Corruptors are fine, sorry.
Again: My point was "None, as is intended. Why would there ever be a sucky unit in a competitive multiplayer game ever?" ANSWER THIS, rather making a shitty list about which unit from which race sucks, which is entirely pointless.
On September 20 2011 09:46 rpgalon wrote: just like they did with HT and KA....
I'll argue that the KA removal was because KA was badly designed in combination with warp-ins, but you seemed to miss my point. There's a possibility ghosts could get nerfed. My point is that you shouldn't expect it just because people are whining about it.
On September 20 2011 08:26 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: RIP mass ling/infestor. It was fun while it lasted, but I had the feeling it was too good to last forever
It should still work, just maybe not quite as good. For whatever reason people seem to think this means the end of nueral... But it is still a fantastic spell.
On September 20 2011 09:27 ownyaah wrote: so basically zerg got hardcore nerfed, protoss got good buffs and terran minimal changes that dont affect tvz either way. protoss did kinda need a buff but nerfing the alredy weakest race wont serve any good blizzard is pretty hardcore retarded, noone ever complained about np, noone had problems with np it was what made infestors actually useful and pretty versile, now they are almost the same as meele units and pretty shity. the fungal nerf was needed, the np should be atleast 8.2 range
well u know blizzard and balance, remove metapolis from ladder + put it on the tournament pool. either they are really smart, or to smart for us to comprehend
man TvZ will get better since blue flame hellion wont kill your dear drones that ez and in top of that +5 seconds to barracks is huge to delay 2rax allins vs Z and at the same time u will scout a little longer in terran base...
do u play this game by the way?
u relize that blue flame helions still 2 shot drones? in other words it does not affect tvz and no 5 game seconds dosnt matter all that much. its like saying Oh shit infestors are to strong lets add 5 game seconds for infestation pit. holy shit man that is some big time nerf not really.
the barrack nerf makes no sense, the helion nerf is cuz of tvt probably? and yes i play im mid master
On September 20 2011 09:43 LtLolburger wrote: Hopefully HotS will introduce some variety in protoss play, because they ain't getting anything from blizzard atm.
Hopefully a solid multipurpose unit that has harass potential (reaver lol)
On September 20 2011 09:27 ownyaah wrote: so basically zerg got hardcore nerfed, protoss got good buffs and terran minimal changes that dont affect tvz either way. protoss did kinda need a buff but nerfing the alredy weakest race wont serve any good blizzard is pretty hardcore retarded, noone ever complained about np, noone had problems with np it was what made infestors actually useful and pretty versile, now they are almost the same as meele units and pretty shity. the fungal nerf was needed, the np should be atleast 8.2 range
well u know blizzard and balance, remove metapolis from ladder + put it on the tournament pool. either they are really smart, or to smart for us to comprehend
man TvZ will get better since blue flame hellion wont kill your dear drones that ez and in top of that +5 seconds to barracks is huge to delay 2rax allins vs Z and at the same time u will scout a little longer in terran base...
do u play this game by the way?
u relize that blue flame helions still 2 shot drones? in other words it does not affect tvz and no 5 game seconds dosnt matter all that much. its like saying Oh shit infestors are to strong lets add 5 game seconds for infestation pit. holy shit man that is some big time nerf not really.
the barrack nerf makes no sense, the helion nerf is cuz of tvt probably? and yes i play im mid master
Mid master must be pretty low skilled in whatever region you're in. I'll hold your hand and do math with you.
The new blue flame hellion does 19 damage per shot. 2 * 19 = 38. Drones have 40 HP.
The new blue flame hellion will require 3 shots to kill a drone.
MAGIC.
Also, 5 seconds on your first building is a big nerf to all early game aggression and a bump in your build orders.
Kind of feel like the infestor neural nerf is bad. I mean, as a protoss player i can just aim my collossi at them before being in danger of getting neuralled. Maybe making the range 8 instead, but 7 seems too little. Even at 9 I didn't think it was bad. What I thought was bad was how good the infestor was with everything combined, but I think a different nerf would've been more appropriate, like having fungal slow units instead of keeping them there, or have it cost more energy, or bringing back the idea of making it a projectile instead of instant. I know it was crappy before, but the speed of the projectile was ridiculously slow, they should have just sped it up instead of removing it. My 2 cents
On September 20 2011 09:43 LtLolburger wrote: Hopefully HotS will introduce some variety in protoss play, because they ain't getting anything from blizzard atm.
Dustin Browder said: For instance, the Protoss don't really have a great way to raid. To a point; they can kind of raid with Phoenixes with anti-gravs and they can cheese with void rays, but that's not really fun. But we can add in a legitimate Protoss raider that gives a player new strategies.
On September 20 2011 09:15 windsupernova wrote: LOL people underestimating the Immortal buff. Range is one of the things that really changes how the game works, Remember when Roaches were 3 range? And how good they became when they added 1 range?
Im not going to say its going to make Immortals OP or that it will solve all P problems, but its still quite a buff. Can´t wait to see pros using it
A buff from 3 to 4 is a much bigger buff than 5 to 6. Plus, roaches are a unit that get used in much larger numbers which makes the buff better also.
The effect of up'd range depends on the practical applications. 3 range roaches couldn't hit a cannon placed behind a gateway with a 1-hex gap, and couldn't hit the gateway without being in range of the cannon. 4 range roaches made forge expands harder. We'll see what the extra range lets immos do.
On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote: I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build.
On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote: Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda
this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss.
Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down.
DRG still lost the hatch. And 1 out of a thousand cases you could find only 1 that somehow manage to come back in the game cuz that guy is a ZvT specialist ? lol, some dude fucked up and forget to research siege mode as 1/1/1 vs Protoss, and protoss won. Do you consider that's how you solve the problem?
On September 20 2011 08:27 GGzerG wrote: Well it is official, time to switch to Protoss. I agree with the overseer , ultralisk and fungal change, but the neural parasite change is really going to make late game really hard for zerg I think...Like when the map gets cut in half... T_T
I watch alot of pro games, and i rarely see neural parasite being used to great effect at the highest level (losira in the AOL games thats about it) i honestly dont think its gonna change much, you can still neural and collosus were still in range before to target them down and they will be in range but just slightly closer now.
Its not like we really saw neural being implemented that much at the highest level, give me another example besides losira in his arena of legends game where neural was being used to a large extent to counter collosus. I cant really think of any even.
On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote: I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build.
On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote: Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda
this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss.
Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down.
Lol terrible comparison. Ghosts have needed a nerf for a long time now, Marauders is a unit low level players complain about. It's not even about how much whining there is about a unit, you just have to look at all the things a ghost can do to realize it's way to good.
It also makes Terran micro so easy compared to Protoss that goes for a HT based army. Nah the ghost nerf is coming, I'm 100% sure of it.
On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote: I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build.
On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote: Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda
this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss.
Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down.
Marauders are good too... wait what units of terran sucks?
Ummmmmmm..... Reapers are about as close as you'll get I think, and they can still fuck shit up.
On September 20 2011 09:42 Dalavita wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:41 EliteReplay wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote: I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build.
On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote: Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda
this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss.
Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down.
Marauders are good too... wait what units of terran sucks?
None, as is intended. Why would there ever be a sucky unit in a competitive multiplayer game ever?
(also reapers are pretty shitty, and BC's aren't that good outside of TvT)
My point is. Just because people are bitching about unit X, which once upon a time was the marauder, won't necessarily mean it'll get nerfed. People will learn to deal with ghosts eventually, just like they did with marauders.
Reading comprehension? Stating which units suck or not has nothing to do with my point.
Also, Phoenixes and Corruptors are fine, sorry.
Again: My point was "None, as is intended. Why would there ever be a sucky unit in a competitive multiplayer game ever?" ANSWER THIS, rather making a shitty list about which unit from which race sucks, which is entirely pointless.
On September 20 2011 09:46 rpgalon wrote: just like they did with HT and KA....
I'll argue that the KA removal was because KA was badly designed in combination with warp-ins, but you seemed to miss my point. There's a possibility ghosts could get nerfed. My point is that you shouldn't expect it just because people are whining about it.
Oh, I don't deny there's no point in implementing a useless unit into a game, just pointing out that each of the other races does have useless units (opinions being discounted).
In fact, now that I'm thinking about it, every race in BW had its useless units (or very very niche) such as Scouts and DAs, Ghosts and BCs and Queens and Devourers.
In fact, we could take this further into other games as well. I played RA2 competitively (lol), Rocketeers, Soviet Attack Dogs, Spys, Dreadnoughts. Choose your game and I'm quite confident it would have had units which were underutilised due to their limited role or underpowered ability.
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose. And to boot, they all deal not too bad damage either (hell, even the air superiority fighter (which is better than all other AA fighters) can land and contribute to the ground attack). You can pure bio, pure mech, pure air or do a lovely mix of all three and if that doesn't work, no problem, switch your infrastructure around a bit and voila, an entirely new tech tree.
It's well known Terran has a vast number of options available to it in comparison to Protoss and especially Zerg. The point is that whilst it's very nice that Terran has all these useful units, that same ideology of game design has not been shared with P and Z in SC2. To get to the amazing state of what BW is (and SC2 strives to be), all three races must be equal not only in terms of winning statistics, but also strategy diversity.
Can you Kill with Mass EMPs? No. Can you Kill with Mass Fungals/Storms? Yes. Players don't Mass up Ghosts and win the game outright with them. They're a support unit and their role is a fine one at that. However people could Chain-Fungal units down and Carpet Storms are a Pain.
There's a big difference between the Casters and people aren't content until they're all the same.
On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote: I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build.
On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote: Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda
this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss.
Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down.
Marauders are good too... wait what units of terran sucks?
Ummmmmmm..... Reapers are about as close as you'll get I think, and they can still fuck shit up.
On September 20 2011 09:42 Dalavita wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:41 EliteReplay wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote: I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build.
On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote: Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda
this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss.
Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down.
Marauders are good too... wait what units of terran sucks?
None, as is intended. Why would there ever be a sucky unit in a competitive multiplayer game ever?
(also reapers are pretty shitty, and BC's aren't that good outside of TvT)
My point is. Just because people are bitching about unit X, which once upon a time was the marauder, won't necessarily mean it'll get nerfed. People will learn to deal with ghosts eventually, just like they did with marauders.
Reading comprehension? Stating which units suck or not has nothing to do with my point.
Also, Phoenixes and Corruptors are fine, sorry.
Again: My point was "None, as is intended. Why would there ever be a sucky unit in a competitive multiplayer game ever?" ANSWER THIS, rather making a shitty list about which unit from which race sucks, which is entirely pointless.
On September 20 2011 09:46 rpgalon wrote: just like they did with HT and KA....
I'll argue that the KA removal was because KA was badly designed in combination with warp-ins, but you seemed to miss my point. There's a possibility ghosts could get nerfed. My point is that you shouldn't expect it just because people are whining about it.
Oh, I don't deny there's no point in implementing a useless unit into a game, just pointing out that each of the other races does have useless units (opinions being discounted).
In fact, now that I'm thinking about it, every race in BW had its useless units (or very very niche) such as Scouts and DAs, Ghosts and BCs and Queens and Devourers.
In fact, we could take this further into other games as well. I played RA2 competitively (lol), Rocketeers, Soviet Attack Dogs, Spys, Dreadnoughts. Choose your game and I'm quite confident it would have had units which were underutilised due to their limited role or underpowered ability.
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose. And to boot, they all deal not too bad damage either (hell, even the air superiority fighter (which is better than all other AA fighters) can land and contribute to the ground attack). You can pure bio, pure mech, pure air or do a lovely mix of all three and if that doesn't work, no problem, switch your infrastructure around a bit and voila, an entirely new tech tree.
It's well known Terran has a vast number of options available to it in comparison to Protoss and especially Zerg. The point is that whilst it's very nice that Terran has all these useful units, that same ideology of game design has not been shared with P and Z in SC2. To get to the amazing state of what BW is (and SC2 strives to be), all three races must be equal not only in terms of winning statistics, but also strategy diversity.
agree 100% with everything said.
terran is powerful because they have options. zerg and protoss are rigid and limited in what they can do. it's a core game flaw. i dont think it'll be fixed until all the expansions are out.
On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote: I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build.
On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote: Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda
this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss.
Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down.
DRG still lost the hatch. And 1 out of a thousand cases you could find only 1 that somehow manage to come back in the game cuz that guy is a ZvT specialist ? lol, some dude fucked up and forget to research siege mode as 1/1/1 vs Protoss, and protoss won. Do you consider that's how you solve the problem?
I don't recall if DRG lost the hatch or not, thinking about the Tal'Darim altar game. I'm fairly sure he didn't... I think you're thinking of MLG, and even then he did fine. Also saying that he held it because he's a ZvT specialist is pretty stupid. It's not that hard to hold and him showing how to do it gives other zergs the tools to do the same thing. Not like he was the only zerg holding the 2rax to begin with.
On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote: I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build.
On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote: Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda
this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss.
Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down.
Lol terrible comparison. Ghosts have needed a nerf for a long time now, Marauders is a unit low level players complain about. It's not even about how much whining there is about a unit, you just have to look at all the things a ghost can do to realize it's way to good.
It also makes Terran micro so easy compared to Protoss that goes for a HT based army. Nah the ghost nerf is coming, I'm 100% sure of it.
Not a terrible comparison, sorry. And I like your "Ghosts have needed a nerf for a long time now" argument. Care to back it up with anything whatsoever? That sounds suspiciously like the marauder whine.
"You just have to look at all the things a ghost can do to realize it's way to good."
No, seriously, no. Every single person looking at a unit will come to different conclusions, so that argument doesn't hold any water whatsoever.
I'm going to be laughing so hard if a ghost nerf doesn't end up coming, just like the marauder nerf, and the mule nerf.
On September 20 2011 10:14 Eishi_Ki wrote:
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose. And to boot, they all deal not too bad damage either (hell, even the air superiority fighter (which is better than all other AA fighters) can land and contribute to the ground attack). You can pure bio, pure mech, pure air or do a lovely mix of all three and if that doesn't work, no problem, switch your infrastructure around a bit and voila, an entirely new tech tree.
It's well known Terran has a vast number of options available to it in comparison to Protoss and especially Zerg. The point is that whilst it's very nice that Terran has all these useful units, that same ideology of game design has not been shared with P and Z in SC2. To get to the amazing state of what BW is (and SC2 strives to be), all three races must be equal not only in terms of winning statistics, but also strategy diversity.
What you said about all terran units being good, and that is how it should be is exactly my point, so I still don't see why you quoted me. And yes, I believe protoss and zerg need better tools to become more interesting as a race.
On September 20 2011 08:32 Gheed wrote: Is this legit? Can't wait to see how the changes will affect upcoming games given it seemed like a kind of sudden release.
wut? I've been playing the PTR for quiet a long time now.
You might want to put the sundry gameplay changes in as well:
Protoss -Sentry Guardian Shield now correctly reduces damage from Hellion, Void ray, and Colossus attacks as well as the Siege Tank's sieged attack. -Fixed an issue where Colossus thermal lance beams would track a unit much further than the range of the weapon. -Fixed an issue where workers would not path around Force Field while harvesting.
Terran -The Command Center Load SCV command will now only ask to load as many SCVs as it can contain. -SCVs will now always face the building when resuming construction. -SCVs can no longer repair themselves while inside a Bunker or Medivac. -Fixed an issue where the Reaper could get stuck in some cases.
Zerg Overseer & Brood Lord cocoons can now display waypoint lines when issuing queued patrol orders. -Baneling's Attack Structure ability is now a toggle to Enable/Disable Attack Structure. The toggle will determine whether structures are valid targets for auto-attack. This change fixes an issue which caused Banelings to prioritize buildings over hostile units. -Burrowed units are no longer cloaked by the Mothership, as this is redundant. -Attack upgrades are now retained by units controlled by Neural Parasite. -If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite. -Canceling more than one of the same structure at the same time as Zerg will add all Drones to the selection. -Improved Larva placement when the bottom edge of a hatchery is on a cliff edge to prevent Larva from getting killed. -Spore Crawlers and Spine Crawlers now disable their Stop button when rooting. -Fixed an issue where Drone attacks could be more easily dodged than SCV or Probes. -Fixed an issue where Broodlords on the high ground were not revealed when attacking enemy units on the low ground.
I italicized the ones that should actually have a pretty significant change on gameplay.
On September 20 2011 09:05 sickoota wrote: No TvP changes except a slight ease to a couple 1/1/1 variations. Useless patch..
I don't think you understand. 6 range Immortals are going to be amazing.
Dare I say it?
I think they'll be borderline OP. But hey, that's good for me.
The marines will still do pretty well against them. And you try dropping them to pick off the tanks(Sorta like Shuttle Micro), Terran will just replace Banshees with Vikings. But, hey time will tell. Hopefully this does fix the issue. But, I wouldn't get my hope up.
Ah, wow, they went through with a mech nerf. They really need to make armories cheaper, at this rate they'll nerf tanks again or have some patch note next to the tank icon saying "use marauder instead."
I do not understand browder's obsession with making Terran need to play in a 1A marauder ball fashion. I understand there's a chip on his shoulder because of "cnc tank spam" and because this is "not brood war" but positional tank play is always 10x better than herp de derp marauder spam.
Zerg players are still laughing all the way to the bank. Sure, neural was nerfed, but mass infested terrans and infestor + broodlord remains the same strengh as last patch lol...
On September 20 2011 08:54 Arisen wrote: Well, ghosts didn't get a nerf, that's super O.o
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the infestor nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and protoss is still pretty much unbeatable late game - infestors just give a few strong options for midgame. Good players can absolutely deal with infestors and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game phoenix, mothership, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about infestors and not being able to auto win versus zerg on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the ghost is killing everyfucking thing. Snipe's range is so insane and the ghost is now cheap on gas and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and zerg have and can cloak and snipe obs/overseers to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that zergs and protoss have tried everything and the ghost is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the infestor in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because zerg units are so cost inefficient (baring perhaps the BL). Terrans literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of ghosts in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both hive tech options as well as lair tech units (mutas and infestors get destroyed by snipe- they don't even need to use EMP) and every protoss unit with EMP.
Come on blizzard; please focus on stuff that actually needs attention rather than making changes for casual players :/
This is actually the most "Paper is fine and completely balanced, but for fucks sake rock is OBVIOUSLY a HUGE problem -Scissors" post i've seen in a while, kudos on the balance whine so whiney it actually made me giggle! For a laugh, Imma do the protoss version of what u just said except with the HT a few patches ago (with italics marking the only changes i made!).
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the High Templar nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and Terran is still Way too strong early-mid game - High Templar just give a few strong options for Protoss lategame. Good players can absolutely deal with High Templar and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game ghosts, battlecruiser, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about High Templar and not being able to auto win versus Protoss on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the Infestor is killing everyfucking thing. Nerual Parasites range is so insane and the Infestor is Cost effective vs everything and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and terran have and can Burrow and snipe Workers/bases with Infested terrans to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that terran and protoss have tried everything and the Infestor is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the High templar in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because Protoss units are so expensive we need strong AoE to make up for our lack of numbers. Zergs literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of Infestors in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both Stargate options as well as robo tech units (Collosi and immortals get destroyed by Neurals- they don't even need to use fungal) and every terran unit with Fungal Growth.
That was kinda fun :D.
Well, all my stuff was true, all yours wasn't? Name me a game where the protoss played well, didn't make any major mistakes and secured 3 base without huge losses and still lost versus zerg? For every 1 game you give me, I can give you 100 games of protoss rolling a zerg because he didn't have a game winning advantage going into lategame. That's just the way the matchup works, protoss lategame versus zerg is pretty much untouchable, so you have to win in the midgame. And while I think that reflects poor game design, it's the way things are. So why now is it justifiable to nerf the major component to making midgame zerg armies strong versus protoss when protoss have proven to be able to deal with infesotrs fine?
As to comparing the ghost to the infestor; I don't know what to say about that. You're wrong, I suppose is the long and short of it. Yeah, if you could fungal growth and NP unhindered, I guess the infestor is on par with the ghost, but you can't. Tanks and ghosts outrange infestors by a ton, negating out spellcasters and snipe is equal range to brood lords, so they can be delt with safely and snipe is fantastic versus ultralisks as well. Ghosts can cast every spell cloaked and can snipe mobile detection before they can be targeted so they can remain untargatable. Sure, you can cast IT's burrowed...that does a lot versus a late game army with a ton of splash damage :/ (that is assuming they're bad enough to not have detection anyway, which zerg doesn't have a way of sniping easily...
The difference is I can give you a fuckton of examples of people dealing with infestors, wehre as you can't give me a lot of examples of people dealing with late game ghosts (at least ZvT).
On September 20 2011 10:16 Eps wrote: Can you Kill with Mass EMPs? No. Can you Kill with Mass Fungals/Storms? Yes. Players don't Mass up Ghosts and win the game outright with them. They're a support unit and their role is a fine one at that. However people could Chain-Fungal units down and Carpet Storms are a Pain.
There's a big difference between the Casters and people aren't content until they're all the same.
Dude, that is such a bad argument. It's how they're designed, it's like me saying, "Voidrays can hit both air and ground, banshees only hit ground, HUURRR DUURRR THEIR UNDERPOWERED".
HTs and Infestors are support units too, you can't just win outright right with them, If you get enough infestors, sure. But that's why their getting nerf'd. Try massing HTs against a terran player, I'd love to see how you do.
The point is, both Zerg and Protoss rely on there casters so much if they go on that tech route, if they get EMP'd or die you pretty just lose the game. And then when you have a unit like the ghost that moves fast, easy to mass, good unit even without spells, EMP with a pretty big radius, and even snipe/cloak it's ridiculously hard to defend your casters against it, so saying you can 'chain storm' is stupid, I've been going HTs for 7-8 months vs Terran and still do. And manage to pull off only 1-2 storms even when I have spread HTs, just because the Terran has like 8 ghosts. Then have to rely on my HTs that I warped in prior to the battle that I kept safe, or use a warp prism.
I could go on and on about the imbalance of the difficulty in micro'ing a Protoss army to a Terran army, but I won't.
So your point about EMP not being able to win a game outright is stupid, because it can against a HT based army (Or an Infestor army 'probably'?, but I don't play Zerg so I wouldn't know)
On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote: I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build.
On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote: Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda
this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss.
Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down.
Marauders are good too... wait what units of terran sucks?
Ummmmmmm..... Reapers are about as close as you'll get I think, and they can still fuck shit up.
On September 20 2011 09:42 Dalavita wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:41 EliteReplay wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote: I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build.
On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote: Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda
this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss.
Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down.
Marauders are good too... wait what units of terran sucks?
None, as is intended. Why would there ever be a sucky unit in a competitive multiplayer game ever?
(also reapers are pretty shitty, and BC's aren't that good outside of TvT)
My point is. Just because people are bitching about unit X, which once upon a time was the marauder, won't necessarily mean it'll get nerfed. People will learn to deal with ghosts eventually, just like they did with marauders.
Reading comprehension? Stating which units suck or not has nothing to do with my point.
Also, Phoenixes and Corruptors are fine, sorry.
Again: My point was "None, as is intended. Why would there ever be a sucky unit in a competitive multiplayer game ever?" ANSWER THIS, rather making a shitty list about which unit from which race sucks, which is entirely pointless.
On September 20 2011 09:46 rpgalon wrote: just like they did with HT and KA....
I'll argue that the KA removal was because KA was badly designed in combination with warp-ins, but you seemed to miss my point. There's a possibility ghosts could get nerfed. My point is that you shouldn't expect it just because people are whining about it.
Oh, I don't deny there's no point in implementing a useless unit into a game, just pointing out that each of the other races does have useless units (opinions being discounted).
In fact, now that I'm thinking about it, every race in BW had its useless units (or very very niche) such as Scouts and DAs, Ghosts and BCs and Queens and Devourers.
In fact, we could take this further into other games as well. I played RA2 competitively (lol), Rocketeers, Soviet Attack Dogs, Spys, Dreadnoughts. Choose your game and I'm quite confident it would have had units which were underutilised due to their limited role or underpowered ability.
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose. And to boot, they all deal not too bad damage either (hell, even the air superiority fighter (which is better than all other AA fighters) can land and contribute to the ground attack). You can pure bio, pure mech, pure air or do a lovely mix of all three and if that doesn't work, no problem, switch your infrastructure around a bit and voila, an entirely new tech tree.
It's well known Terran has a vast number of options available to it in comparison to Protoss and especially Zerg. The point is that whilst it's very nice that Terran has all these useful units, that same ideology of game design has not been shared with P and Z in SC2. To get to the amazing state of what BW is (and SC2 strives to be), all three races must be equal not only in terms of winning statistics, but also strategy diversity.
agree 100% with everything said.
terran is powerful because they have options. zerg and protoss are rigid and limited in what they can do. it's a core game flaw. i dont think it'll be fixed until all the expansions are out.
Balance and design have barely anything to do with each other, if you wanted to you could create the most one-dimensional, rigid and limited race you can think of and you can still let it win 50% of the time by just tweaking stats. If you want zerg and protoss to have more options then I'm all for that, but don't delude yourself it will somehow fix balance issues.
On September 20 2011 10:29 avilo wrote: Ah, wow, they went through with a mech nerf. They really need to make armories cheaper, at this rate they'll nerf tanks again or have some patch note next to the tank icon saying "use marauder instead."
I do not understand browder's obsession with making Terran need to play in a 1A marauder ball fashion. I understand there's a chip on his shoulder because of "cnc tank spam" and because this is "not brood war" but positional tank play is always 10x better than herp de derp marauder spam.
Zerg players are still laughing all the way to the bank. Sure, neural was nerfed, but mass infested terrans and infestor + broodlord remains the same strengh as last patch lol...
What? 2 out of the 3 Terran matchups use tanks. Don´t be so dramatic
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose.
Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment.
Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation. Your statement applies to zerg much better than it applies to terran.
Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now.
On September 20 2011 10:23 RisingTide wrote: -Fixed an issue where Colossus thermal lance beams would track a unit much further than the range of the weapon.
How can people say TvZ has serious balance issues when Z has had a sharp incline in winrate % in Korea since the original FG change? Z finally overtook T in Korea for the first time, things look promising on the Z front in TvZ if you ask me - especially considering the latest T nerfs to hellions and barracks (where most zergs were losing games straight up).
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose.
Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment.
Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation.
Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now.
Disagree with everything you said in the first paragraph, didn't read the rest. Those units only 'look' bad because they aren't because used. Hellions weren't ever getting used 1-2 months ago, but look at them now. Reapers are used a lot in TvP to scout, so you can't call them gimmicky :/. Banshees have there place in TvT, and sometimes used as a lategame unit to kill off tanks when you have air control. Even raven might be used against burrowed banes or against Mutas in the future (Actually they get used a lot in TvT against marauders). To call them gimmicky just because we only see them in the early game is stupid.
On September 20 2011 10:29 avilo wrote: Ah, wow, they went through with a mech nerf. They really need to make armories cheaper, at this rate they'll nerf tanks again or have some patch note next to the tank icon saying "use marauder instead."
I do not understand browder's obsession with making Terran need to play in a 1A marauder ball fashion. I understand there's a chip on his shoulder because of "cnc tank spam" and because this is "not brood war" but positional tank play is always 10x better than herp de derp marauder spam.
Zerg players are still laughing all the way to the bank. Sure, neural was nerfed, but mass infested terrans and infestor + broodlord remains the same strengh as last patch lol...
What? 2 out of the 3 Terran matchups use tanks. Don´t be so dramatic
On September 20 2011 08:27 GGzerG wrote: Well it is official, time to switch to Protoss. I agree with the overseer , ultralisk and fungal change, but the neural parasite change is really going to make late game really hard for zerg I think...Like when the map gets cut in half... T_T
I don't get it, why play protoss? I seriously doubt they will be %100 fixed with 3 buffs and 1 nerf. Destiny and people like you man... no faith in blizzard you just think zerg is now shit when it's definitely not. Most of the buffs are only helping PvP, immortal buff is clearly for PvP and the blink nerf is as well. The mothership buff/nerf obviously doesn't matter and the warp prism buff is decent.
If anything, with the rax build time increase you should be happy because now we can 15 hatch with more breathing room and I'm going to be burrowing banelings EVERYWHERE forcing lazy terrans to get a raven.
On September 20 2011 10:52 WinteRR wrote: How can people say TvZ has serious balance issues when Z has had a sharp incline in winrate % in Korea since the original FG change? Z finally overtook T in Korea for the first time, things look promising on the Z front in TvZ if you ask me - especially considering the latest T nerfs to hellions and barracks (where most zergs were losing games straight up).
Watch the July vs MVP game on metalopolis (or Thorzain versus Catz or any demuslim game versus zerg). That's why people are saying there's a problem with TvZ. The July MVP game isn't the best example as july made some questionable decisions, but once terran has a sufficient amount of tank/ghost you can't touch them.
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose.
Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment.
Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation.
Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now.
Disagree with everything you said in the first paragraph, didn't read the rest. Those units only 'look' bad because they aren't because used. Hellions weren't ever getting used 1-2 months ago, but look at them now. Reapers are used a lot in TvP to scout, so you can't call them gimmicky :/. Banshees have there place in TvT, and sometimes used as a lategame unit to kill off tanks when you have air control. Even raven might be used against burrowed banes or against Mutas in the future, but I don't really know. To call them gimmicky just because we only see them in the early game is stupid.
You can occasionally make 1 early reaper to scout the protoss, how is that a viable unit? What if you only built 1 sentry to block the ramp every game and it had no utility besides that, would that make the sentry a well designed unit? It serves a purpose, you can't call it gimmicky.
The rest of your post is just hypothetical "what if"-stuff. Well, what if protoss and zerg have just as many options as terrans do, they just haven't been discovered yet and the units look bad because they aren't used correctly? Or maybe we can focus on whats actually happening in the game and call a spade a spade.
On September 20 2011 10:16 Eps wrote: Can you Kill with Mass EMPs? No. Can you Kill with Mass Fungals/Storms? Yes. Players don't Mass up Ghosts and win the game outright with them. They're a support unit and their role is a fine one at that. However people could Chain-Fungal units down and Carpet Storms are a Pain.
There's a big difference between the Casters and people aren't content until they're all the same.
Dude, that is such a bad argument. It's how they're designed, it's like me saying, "Voidrays can hit both air and ground, banshees only hit ground, HUURRR DUURRR THEIR UNDERPOWERED".
HTs and Infestors are support units too, you can't just win outright right with them, If you get enough infestors, sure. But that's why their getting nerf'd. Try massing HTs against a terran player, I'd love to see how you do.
The point is, both Zerg and Protoss rely on there casters so much if they go on that tech route, if they get EMP'd or die you pretty just lose the game. And then when you have a unit like the ghost that moves fast, easy to mass, good unit even without spells, EMP with a pretty big radius, and even snipe/cloak it's ridiculously hard to defend your casters against it, so saying you can 'chain storm' is stupid, I've been going HTs for 7-8 months vs Terran and still do. And manage to pull off only 1-2 storms even when I have spread HTs, just because the Terran has like 8 ghosts. Then have to rely on my HTs that I warped in prior to the battle that I kept safe, or use a warp prism.
I could go on and on about the imbalance of the difficulty in micro'ing a Protoss army to a Terran army, but I won't.
So your point about EMP not being able to win a game outright is stupid, because it can against a HT based army (Or an Infestor army 'probably'?, but I don't play Zerg so I wouldn't know)
You're overestimating the abilities of the Ghost unit. You say that they're good units without spells. Can you list any other combat unit that has a non-AOE damage of 10/20 vs Light for 200/100 resources? 2.25 Move Speed is considered Fast now? After the EMP's are cast, Ghosts are essentially Useless vs Protoss. While Templars can morph into a nice Bio wrecking ball called an Archon. 1-2 Storms is able to damage a Bio-Terran's main DPS unit - Marines and potentially kill many of them and damage Marauders fairly well.
The supposed "100" damage that EMP does to Protoss units is overkill in many situations. While Storms do not suffer from this.
There are pros and cons from both units and abilities. And from what you're saying it is a coin flipped situation based on which player has better Micro of Casters and Army. You talk a lot about Micro-ing a Protoss Army and how hard it is. Are you forgetting how Terrans have to Micro, Spread Bio and Kite to actually be effective against Chargelot/HT/Archon armies? And of course have Ghosts ready to EMP before the enemy Casters can?
The game has a micro component and it rewards whichever side micros better. I don't understand why there's so much complaints about it.
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose.
Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment.
Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation.
Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now.
Disagree with everything you said in the first paragraph, didn't read the rest. Those units only 'look' bad because they aren't because used. Hellions weren't ever getting used 1-2 months ago, but look at them now. Reapers are used a lot in TvP to scout, so you can't call them gimmicky :/. Banshees have there place in TvT, and sometimes used as a lategame unit to kill off tanks when you have air control. Even raven might be used against burrowed banes or against Mutas in the future, but I don't really know. To call them gimmicky just because we only see them in the early game is stupid.
You can occasionally make 1 early reaper to scout the protoss, how is that a viable unit? What if you only built 1 sentry to block the ramp every game and it had no utility besides that, would that make the sentry a well designed unit? It serves a purpose, you can't call it gimmicky.
The rest of your post is just hypothetical "what if"-stuff. Well, what if protoss and zerg have just as many options as terrans do, they just haven't been discovered yet and the units look bad because they aren't used correctly? Or maybe we can focus on whats actually happening in the game and call a spade a spade.
QXC uses lategame speedreapers a lot in TvP, they're definitely not useless. Banshees are good all game long TvT and TvP and are great harass units in all 3 matchups. The only terran unit that isn't really proven to be amazing is the raven (though you need a mobile detector anyway) and they have been vastly underexplored.
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose.
Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment.
Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation.
Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now.
Disagree with everything you said in the first paragraph, didn't read the rest. Those units only 'look' bad because they aren't because used. Hellions weren't ever getting used 1-2 months ago, but look at them now. Reapers are used a lot in TvP to scout, so you can't call them gimmicky :/. Banshees have there place in TvT, and sometimes used as a lategame unit to kill off tanks when you have air control. Even raven might be used against burrowed banes or against Mutas in the future, but I don't really know. To call them gimmicky just because we only see them in the early game is stupid.
You can occasionally make 1 early reaper to scout the protoss, how is that a viable unit? What if you only built 1 sentry to block the ramp every game and it had no utility besides that, would that make the sentry a well designed unit?
The rest of your post is just hypothetical "what if"-stuff. Well, what if protoss and zerg have just as many options as terrans do, they just haven't been discovered yet and the units look bad because they aren't used correctly? Or maybe we can focus on whats actually happening in the game and call a spade a spade.
Who said you only make 1 early reaper to scout, I've seen some KR terran players make some throughout the game to scout the main instead of scanning. I remember see Bratok and QXC dismantling Protoss players with reaper harass a while back. What 'what if' stuff lol? Both Banshees and Ravens do get used a lot in TvT, I'm not sure what you're talking about.
I can't talk for Zerg, but for Protoss sure there a lot of undiscovered stuff, so maybe we'll be seeing some new ways to use certain units, but units like Carriers and Mothership will remain trash until they get changed.
On September 20 2011 10:52 WinteRR wrote: How can people say TvZ has serious balance issues when Z has had a sharp incline in winrate % in Korea since the original FG change? Z finally overtook T in Korea for the first time, things look promising on the Z front in TvZ if you ask me - especially considering the latest T nerfs to hellions and barracks (where most zergs were losing games straight up).
Watch the July vs MVP game on metalopolis (or Thorzain versus Catz or any demuslim game versus zerg). That's why people are saying there's a problem with TvZ. The July MVP game isn't the best example as july made some questionable decisions, but once terran has a sufficient amount of tank/ghost you can't touch them.
Not to discredit your point but you can't really compare Thorzain with Catz...Thorzain is on a whole different level than Catz...
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose.
Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment.
Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation.
Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now.
Disagree with everything you said in the first paragraph, didn't read the rest. Those units only 'look' bad because they aren't because used. Hellions weren't ever getting used 1-2 months ago, but look at them now. Reapers are used a lot in TvP to scout, so you can't call them gimmicky :/. Banshees have there place in TvT, and sometimes used as a lategame unit to kill off tanks when you have air control. Even raven might be used against burrowed banes or against Mutas in the future, but I don't really know. To call them gimmicky just because we only see them in the early game is stupid.
You can occasionally make 1 early reaper to scout the protoss, how is that a viable unit? What if you only built 1 sentry to block the ramp every game and it had no utility besides that, would that make the sentry a well designed unit? It serves a purpose, you can't call it gimmicky.
The rest of your post is just hypothetical "what if"-stuff. Well, what if protoss and zerg have just as many options as terrans do, they just haven't been discovered yet and the units look bad because they aren't used correctly? Or maybe we can focus on whats actually happening in the game and call a spade a spade.
QXC uses lategame speedreapers a lot in TvP, they're definitely not useless. Banshees are good all game long TvT and TvP and are great harass units in all 3 matchups. The only terran unit that isn't really proven to be amazing is the raven (though you need a mobile detector anyway) and they have been vastly underexplored.
QXC is one player and I don't see him winning anything at all. The strat is more fun and cool than actually strong.
Banshees are great for harass, lose all viability once a mutalisk or phoenix is built. They're pretty much the definition of a gimmicky unit.
You didn't even mention the BC which is probably the worst offender what comes to worthless units.
I also really hate how people call every terran unit really fucking good but just "underexplored" when nobody uses them. How does it not apply to the other two races? Is it the fact that we have 20 terrans in the GSL that makes all terran units flawless in every aspect?
On September 20 2011 10:16 Eps wrote: Can you Kill with Mass EMPs? No. Can you Kill with Mass Fungals/Storms? Yes. Players don't Mass up Ghosts and win the game outright with them. They're a support unit and their role is a fine one at that. However people could Chain-Fungal units down and Carpet Storms are a Pain.
There's a big difference between the Casters and people aren't content until they're all the same.
Dude, that is such a bad argument. It's how they're designed, it's like me saying, "Voidrays can hit both air and ground, banshees only hit ground, HUURRR DUURRR THEIR UNDERPOWERED".
HTs and Infestors are support units too, you can't just win outright right with them, If you get enough infestors, sure. But that's why their getting nerf'd. Try massing HTs against a terran player, I'd love to see how you do.
The point is, both Zerg and Protoss rely on there casters so much if they go on that tech route, if they get EMP'd or die you pretty just lose the game. And then when you have a unit like the ghost that moves fast, easy to mass, good unit even without spells, EMP with a pretty big radius, and even snipe/cloak it's ridiculously hard to defend your casters against it, so saying you can 'chain storm' is stupid, I've been going HTs for 7-8 months vs Terran and still do. And manage to pull off only 1-2 storms even when I have spread HTs, just because the Terran has like 8 ghosts. Then have to rely on my HTs that I warped in prior to the battle that I kept safe, or use a warp prism.
I could go on and on about the imbalance of the difficulty in micro'ing a Protoss army to a Terran army, but I won't.
So your point about EMP not being able to win a game outright is stupid, because it can against a HT based army (Or an Infestor army 'probably'?, but I don't play Zerg so I wouldn't know)
You're overestimating the abilities of the Ghost unit. You say that they're good units without spells. Can you list any other combat unit that has a non-AOE damage of 10/20 vs Light for 200/100 resources? 2.25 Move Speed is considered Fast now? After the EMP's are cast, Ghosts are essentially Useless vs Protoss. While Templars can morph into a nice Bio wrecking ball called an Archon. 1-2 Storms is able to damage a Bio-Terran's main DPS unit - Marines and potentially kill many of them and damage Marauders fairly well.
The supposed "100" damage that EMP does to Protoss units is overkill in many situations. While Storms do not suffer from this.
There are pros and cons from both units and abilities. And from what you're saying it is a coin flipped situation based on which player has better Micro of Casters and Army. You talk a lot about Micro-ing a Protoss Army and how hard it is. Are you forgetting how Terrans have to Micro, Spread Bio and Kite to actually be effective against Chargelot/HT/Archon armies? And of course have Ghosts ready to EMP before the enemy Casters can?
The game has a micro component and it rewards whichever side micros better. I don't understand why there's so much complaints about it.
There is complaint because ghosts own HTs really really hard. If both sides micro perfectly then ghosts will never lose because they have snipe (10 range) and EMP (10 range with +2 radius for 12 range) while HTs have feedback (9 range) and storm (9 range with +1.5 radius). To break that down, ghosts should NEVER lose to HTs.
Another reason along with that one is in lategame PvT terran can easily scan to kill observers and use that same scan to get a great idea of where all the HTs are. If the protoss doesn't have an observer then he has no idea where the terran's ghosts are. Thus giving the terran a potentiallly great advantage on positioning because of scan. Didn't even mention the annoying tactic where terrans cloak their ghosts and snipe the observer giving them an even greater advantage.
That is why people complain about ghosts.
EDIT: you were also talking about ghosts and how EMP does 100 damage which is overkill in many situations. Well, I can't let you forget that damage is instant while storm is over 4 seconds which gives time to move out of it and negate some of the damage. No terran should ever be tanking storms.
the 5 second nerf will feel so weird T_T hah really though is 5 seconds that big to help zerg? i mean there has to have been something else they could have changed to nerf 2 rax and such, without having to mess up the terran build order timings.
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose.
Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment.
Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation.
Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now.
Disagree with everything you said in the first paragraph, didn't read the rest. Those units only 'look' bad because they aren't because used. Hellions weren't ever getting used 1-2 months ago, but look at them now. Reapers are used a lot in TvP to scout, so you can't call them gimmicky :/. Banshees have there place in TvT, and sometimes used as a lategame unit to kill off tanks when you have air control. Even raven might be used against burrowed banes or against Mutas in the future, but I don't really know. To call them gimmicky just because we only see them in the early game is stupid.
You can occasionally make 1 early reaper to scout the protoss, how is that a viable unit? What if you only built 1 sentry to block the ramp every game and it had no utility besides that, would that make the sentry a well designed unit? It serves a purpose, you can't call it gimmicky.
The rest of your post is just hypothetical "what if"-stuff. Well, what if protoss and zerg have just as many options as terrans do, they just haven't been discovered yet and the units look bad because they aren't used correctly? Or maybe we can focus on whats actually happening in the game and call a spade a spade.
QXC uses lategame speedreapers a lot in TvP, they're definitely not useless. Banshees are good all game long TvT and TvP and are great harass units in all 3 matchups. The only terran unit that isn't really proven to be amazing is the raven (though you need a mobile detector anyway) and they have been vastly underexplored.
QXC is one player and I don't see him winning anything at all. The strat is more fun and cool than actually strong.
Banshees are great for harass, lose all viability once a mutalisk or phoenix is built. They're pretty much the definition of a gimmicky unit.
You didn't even mention the BC which is probably the worst offender what comes to worthless units.
I have so far only seen 1 correct usage of the word "gimmicky" here on TL, and that is quite disappointing. A gimmicky "thing" is one that does not look quite as effective as it is, and probably has the same usefulness as some other equivalent, which was simply not chosen because the first thing is simply more unique. So a unit (Banshee) that can do harass well but can easily be shut down is not gimmicky.
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose.
Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment.
Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation.
Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now.
Disagree with everything you said in the first paragraph, didn't read the rest. Those units only 'look' bad because they aren't because used. Hellions weren't ever getting used 1-2 months ago, but look at them now. Reapers are used a lot in TvP to scout, so you can't call them gimmicky :/. Banshees have there place in TvT, and sometimes used as a lategame unit to kill off tanks when you have air control. Even raven might be used against burrowed banes or against Mutas in the future, but I don't really know. To call them gimmicky just because we only see them in the early game is stupid.
You can occasionally make 1 early reaper to scout the protoss, how is that a viable unit? What if you only built 1 sentry to block the ramp every game and it had no utility besides that, would that make the sentry a well designed unit? It serves a purpose, you can't call it gimmicky.
The rest of your post is just hypothetical "what if"-stuff. Well, what if protoss and zerg have just as many options as terrans do, they just haven't been discovered yet and the units look bad because they aren't used correctly? Or maybe we can focus on whats actually happening in the game and call a spade a spade.
QXC uses lategame speedreapers a lot in TvP, they're definitely not useless. Banshees are good all game long TvT and TvP and are great harass units in all 3 matchups. The only terran unit that isn't really proven to be amazing is the raven (though you need a mobile detector anyway) and they have been vastly underexplored.
QXC is one player and I don't see him winning anything at all.
Banshees are great for harass, lose all viability once a mutalisk or phoenix is built. They're pretty much the definition of a gimmicky unit.
You didn't even mention the BC which is probably the worst offender what comes to worthless units.
On September 20 2011 10:16 Eps wrote: Can you Kill with Mass EMPs? No. Can you Kill with Mass Fungals/Storms? Yes. Players don't Mass up Ghosts and win the game outright with them. They're a support unit and their role is a fine one at that. However people could Chain-Fungal units down and Carpet Storms are a Pain.
There's a big difference between the Casters and people aren't content until they're all the same.
Dude, that is such a bad argument. It's how they're designed, it's like me saying, "Voidrays can hit both air and ground, banshees only hit ground, HUURRR DUURRR THEIR UNDERPOWERED".
HTs and Infestors are support units too, you can't just win outright right with them, If you get enough infestors, sure. But that's why their getting nerf'd. Try massing HTs against a terran player, I'd love to see how you do.
The point is, both Zerg and Protoss rely on there casters so much if they go on that tech route, if they get EMP'd or die you pretty just lose the game. And then when you have a unit like the ghost that moves fast, easy to mass, good unit even without spells, EMP with a pretty big radius, and even snipe/cloak it's ridiculously hard to defend your casters against it, so saying you can 'chain storm' is stupid, I've been going HTs for 7-8 months vs Terran and still do. And manage to pull off only 1-2 storms even when I have spread HTs, just because the Terran has like 8 ghosts. Then have to rely on my HTs that I warped in prior to the battle that I kept safe, or use a warp prism.
I could go on and on about the imbalance of the difficulty in micro'ing a Protoss army to a Terran army, but I won't.
So your point about EMP not being able to win a game outright is stupid, because it can against a HT based army (Or an Infestor army 'probably'?, but I don't play Zerg so I wouldn't know)
You're overestimating the abilities of the Ghost unit. You say that they're good units without spells. Can you list any other combat unit that has a non-AOE damage of 10/20 vs Light for 200/100 resources? 2.25 Move Speed is considered Fast now? After the EMP's are cast, Ghosts are essentially Useless vs Protoss. While Templars can morph into a nice Bio wrecking ball called an Archon. 1-2 Storms is able to damage a Bio-Terran's main DPS unit - Marines and potentially kill many of them and damage Marauders fairly well.
The supposed "100" damage that EMP does to Protoss units is overkill in many situations. While Storms do not suffer from this.
There are pros and cons from both units and abilities. And from what you're saying it is a coin flipped situation based on which player has better Micro of Casters and Army. You talk a lot about Micro-ing a Protoss Army and how hard it is. Are you forgetting how Terrans have to Micro, Spread Bio and Kite to actually be effective against Chargelot/HT/Archon armies? And of course have Ghosts ready to EMP before the enemy Casters can?
The game has a micro component and it rewards whichever side micros better. I don't understand why there's so much complaints about it.
Terran has the micro advantage on paper and in reality. They have better vision prior to an engagement(scans), their caster outranges the protoss caster, and good micro can mitigate the damage component of storm. I won't go into splitting because both sides can split against respective spells, but one can be further mitigated via micro after the spell goes off.
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose.
Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment.
Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation.
Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now.
Disagree with everything you said in the first paragraph, didn't read the rest. Those units only 'look' bad because they aren't because used. Hellions weren't ever getting used 1-2 months ago, but look at them now. Reapers are used a lot in TvP to scout, so you can't call them gimmicky :/. Banshees have there place in TvT, and sometimes used as a lategame unit to kill off tanks when you have air control. Even raven might be used against burrowed banes or against Mutas in the future, but I don't really know. To call them gimmicky just because we only see them in the early game is stupid.
You can occasionally make 1 early reaper to scout the protoss, how is that a viable unit? What if you only built 1 sentry to block the ramp every game and it had no utility besides that, would that make the sentry a well designed unit? It serves a purpose, you can't call it gimmicky.
The rest of your post is just hypothetical "what if"-stuff. Well, what if protoss and zerg have just as many options as terrans do, they just haven't been discovered yet and the units look bad because they aren't used correctly? Or maybe we can focus on whats actually happening in the game and call a spade a spade.
QXC uses lategame speedreapers a lot in TvP, they're definitely not useless. Banshees are good all game long TvT and TvP and are great harass units in all 3 matchups. The only terran unit that isn't really proven to be amazing is the raven (though you need a mobile detector anyway) and they have been vastly underexplored.
QXC is one player and I don't see him winning anything at all.
Banshees are great for harass, lose all viability once a mutalisk or phoenix is built. They're pretty much the definition of a gimmicky unit.
You didn't even mention the BC which is probably the worst offender what comes to worthless units.
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose.
Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment.
Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation.
Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now.
Disagree with everything you said in the first paragraph, didn't read the rest. Those units only 'look' bad because they aren't because used. Hellions weren't ever getting used 1-2 months ago, but look at them now. Reapers are used a lot in TvP to scout, so you can't call them gimmicky :/. Banshees have there place in TvT, and sometimes used as a lategame unit to kill off tanks when you have air control. Even raven might be used against burrowed banes or against Mutas in the future, but I don't really know. To call them gimmicky just because we only see them in the early game is stupid.
You can occasionally make 1 early reaper to scout the protoss, how is that a viable unit? What if you only built 1 sentry to block the ramp every game and it had no utility besides that, would that make the sentry a well designed unit? It serves a purpose, you can't call it gimmicky.
The rest of your post is just hypothetical "what if"-stuff. Well, what if protoss and zerg have just as many options as terrans do, they just haven't been discovered yet and the units look bad because they aren't used correctly? Or maybe we can focus on whats actually happening in the game and call a spade a spade.
QXC uses lategame speedreapers a lot in TvP, they're definitely not useless. Banshees are good all game long TvT and TvP and are great harass units in all 3 matchups. The only terran unit that isn't really proven to be amazing is the raven (though you need a mobile detector anyway) and they have been vastly underexplored.
QXC is one player and I don't see him winning anything at all. The strat is more fun and cool than actually strong.
Banshees are great for harass, lose all viability once a mutalisk or phoenix is built. They're pretty much the definition of a gimmicky unit.
You didn't even mention the BC which is probably the worst offender what comes to worthless units.
I have so far only seen 1 correct usage of the word "gimmicky" here on TL, and that is quite disappointing. A gimmicky "thing" is one that does not look quite as effective as it is, and probably has the same usefulness as some other equivalent, which was simply not chosen because the first thing is simply more unique. So a unit (Banshee) that can do harass well but can easily be shut down is not gimmicky.
Sorry I'm obviously not a native english speaker, but what I mean by "gimmicky" is something that relies on surprise and loses all effectiveness once your opponent can do X. Pretty much the opposite of standard which tries to account for all situations.
On September 20 2011 10:52 WinteRR wrote: How can people say TvZ has serious balance issues when Z has had a sharp incline in winrate % in Korea since the original FG change? Z finally overtook T in Korea for the first time, things look promising on the Z front in TvZ if you ask me - especially considering the latest T nerfs to hellions and barracks (where most zergs were losing games straight up).
Watch the July vs MVP game on metalopolis (or Thorzain versus Catz or any demuslim game versus zerg). That's why people are saying there's a problem with TvZ. The July MVP game isn't the best example as july made some questionable decisions, but once terran has a sufficient amount of tank/ghost you can't touch them.
Not to discredit your point but you can't really compare Thorzain with Catz...Thorzain is on a whole different level than Catz...
I understand, but put nestea in that situation...what does he do? We havent really seen a strong response to turtle ghost play yet beyond don't let it happen. when attacking into the terran all your units that matter (broods, ultras, infestors, overseer, mutas) get sniped and all the units that don't (roaches, lings, blings) die to tanks.
On September 20 2011 10:16 Eps wrote: Can you Kill with Mass EMPs? No. Can you Kill with Mass Fungals/Storms? Yes. Players don't Mass up Ghosts and win the game outright with them. They're a support unit and their role is a fine one at that. However people could Chain-Fungal units down and Carpet Storms are a Pain.
There's a big difference between the Casters and people aren't content until they're all the same.
Dude, that is such a bad argument. It's how they're designed, it's like me saying, "Voidrays can hit both air and ground, banshees only hit ground, HUURRR DUURRR THEIR UNDERPOWERED".
HTs and Infestors are support units too, you can't just win outright right with them, If you get enough infestors, sure. But that's why their getting nerf'd. Try massing HTs against a terran player, I'd love to see how you do.
The point is, both Zerg and Protoss rely on there casters so much if they go on that tech route, if they get EMP'd or die you pretty just lose the game. And then when you have a unit like the ghost that moves fast, easy to mass, good unit even without spells, EMP with a pretty big radius, and even snipe/cloak it's ridiculously hard to defend your casters against it, so saying you can 'chain storm' is stupid, I've been going HTs for 7-8 months vs Terran and still do. And manage to pull off only 1-2 storms even when I have spread HTs, just because the Terran has like 8 ghosts. Then have to rely on my HTs that I warped in prior to the battle that I kept safe, or use a warp prism.
I could go on and on about the imbalance of the difficulty in micro'ing a Protoss army to a Terran army, but I won't.
So your point about EMP not being able to win a game outright is stupid, because it can against a HT based army (Or an Infestor army 'probably'?, but I don't play Zerg so I wouldn't know)
You're overestimating the abilities of the Ghost unit. You say that they're good units without spells. Can you list any other combat unit that has a non-AOE damage of 10/20 vs Light for 200/100 resources? 2.25 Move Speed is considered Fast now? After the EMP's are cast, Ghosts are essentially Useless vs Protoss. While Templars can morph into a nice Bio wrecking ball called an Archon. 1-2 Storms is able to damage a Bio-Terran's main DPS unit - Marines and potentially kill many of them and damage Marauders fairly well.
The supposed "100" damage that EMP does to Protoss units is overkill in many situations. While Storms do not suffer from this.
There are pros and cons from both units and abilities. And from what you're saying it is a coin flipped situation based on which player has better Micro of Casters and Army. You talk a lot about Micro-ing a Protoss Army and how hard it is. Are you forgetting how Terrans have to Micro, Spread Bio and Kite to actually be effective against Chargelot/HT/Archon armies? And of course have Ghosts ready to EMP before the enemy Casters can?
The game has a micro component and it rewards whichever side micros better. I don't understand why there's so much complaints about it.
Sigh... Did you actually think I meant ghosts are a great unit with no spells? Them being decent units without spells against light units is just a bonus. Infestors and HTs can't even attack.
Yes 2.25 is considered fast when It's a HT vs ghost micro battle, very fast. Ghosts are not useless once you cast EMP lol...If you have like 6+ then you should have a lot of energy left over to snipe. Please don't mention Archons, they're practically useless against a lot of ghosts if they get double EMP'd.
Yes it's overkill if your bad at using EMP, it's an instant cast, shouldn't be too much trouble. Storms do not stack.
Kiting is not hard, splitting is not hard with fast units, snipe has 10 range so you can usually kill the HTs before they're even able to cast a feedback or storm. So no, it's not that hard, especially if you have a lot of scans to spot (Refer to Alicia vs Select).
What's your division in SC2 btw?
This also reminds me back in the day when Terrans were in denial about the reaper being overpowered, so disgusting to see.
so basically blizzard did nothing to address the ghost, nothing to address pvz in general, and nothing to give protoss harassment options (in fact they nerfed blink, lol). bravo.
On September 20 2011 11:19 Shiori wrote: so basically blizzard did nothing to address the ghost, nothing to address pvz in general, and nothing to give protoss harassment options (in fact they nerfed blink, lol). bravo.
Warp Prism Shields increased from 40 to 100.
Harrassment option nr1. Tanking prisms, and if you wonder how; check out white-ra's stream more often - he's already doing it with squishy prisms.
On September 20 2011 11:19 Shiori wrote: so basically blizzard did nothing to address the ghost, nothing to address pvz in general, and nothing to give protoss harassment options (in fact they nerfed blink, lol). bravo.
As long as David Kim is in charge Terran is never getting nerfed or having its cool unique upgrades taken away.
Now that that is out of the way, when is the patch going to hit the rest of the world and will it affect GSL tonight?
On September 20 2011 11:19 Shiori wrote: so basically blizzard did nothing to address the ghost, nothing to address pvz in general, and nothing to give protoss harassment options (in fact they nerfed blink, lol). bravo.
On September 20 2011 11:19 Shiori wrote: so basically blizzard did nothing to address the ghost, nothing to address pvz in general, and nothing to give protoss harassment options (in fact they nerfed blink, lol). bravo.
Wrong. NP is changed so Infestor Ling isn't as good.
They gave immortal 1 more range and buff on WP. You realize that before, immortal + warp prism can do a lot of harassment damage by dodging marauder hits, and tanking (or picking them off) marines? Now immortals will have 1 more range than marines which will help even more. With perfect micro, you would be able to get in there, kill all the marines, then focus all the depots or marauders or tech labs or scvs, etc. He would need a viking or heavy marine number to slow down the damage.
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose.
Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment.
Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation.
Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now.
Disagree with everything you said in the first paragraph, didn't read the rest. Those units only 'look' bad because they aren't because used. Hellions weren't ever getting used 1-2 months ago, but look at them now. Reapers are used a lot in TvP to scout, so you can't call them gimmicky :/. Banshees have there place in TvT, and sometimes used as a lategame unit to kill off tanks when you have air control. Even raven might be used against burrowed banes or against Mutas in the future, but I don't really know. To call them gimmicky just because we only see them in the early game is stupid.
You can occasionally make 1 early reaper to scout the protoss, how is that a viable unit? What if you only built 1 sentry to block the ramp every game and it had no utility besides that, would that make the sentry a well designed unit? It serves a purpose, you can't call it gimmicky.
The rest of your post is just hypothetical "what if"-stuff. Well, what if protoss and zerg have just as many options as terrans do, they just haven't been discovered yet and the units look bad because they aren't used correctly? Or maybe we can focus on whats actually happening in the game and call a spade a spade.
QXC uses lategame speedreapers a lot in TvP, they're definitely not useless. Banshees are good all game long TvT and TvP and are great harass units in all 3 matchups. The only terran unit that isn't really proven to be amazing is the raven (though you need a mobile detector anyway) and they have been vastly underexplored.
QXC is one player and I don't see him winning anything at all. The strat is more fun and cool than actually strong.
Banshees are great for harass, lose all viability once a mutalisk or phoenix is built. They're pretty much the definition of a gimmicky unit.
You didn't even mention the BC which is probably the worst offender what comes to worthless units.
I also really hate how people call every terran unit really fucking good but just "underexplored" when nobody uses them. How does it not apply to the other two races? Is it the fact that we have 20 terrans in the GSL that makes all terran units flawless in every aspect?
Obvioulsy they're not flawless.
The only unit that really isn't used by terran is the raven, btw. BC's are great TvT when it turns into sky terran. You could say that medivac drops lose all viablity once a mutalisk is built too, but I'd have to lol. Sure, you can shut it down, but guess what, we're not combat ex. We don't see everything that's happening all over because we don't have map hacks. You can absolutely do great harass with banshees after mutalisks and phoenix are out , and even if the mutalisk or phoneix flys over to deal with you, you have to have detection there ready (and all ground based detection can be sniped pretty easily by a small goup of banshees). Name me one terran unit besides the raven we don't see in high level play?
Don't worry, I'll wait...
Face it, terran has much better design overall. I'm sure that will be fixed with subsequent expansions, but for the time being, it's true.
On September 20 2011 11:19 Shiori wrote: so basically blizzard did nothing to address the ghost, nothing to address pvz in general, and nothing to give protoss harassment options (in fact they nerfed blink, lol). bravo.
Buffed immortal should help against terran in general, infestor had 2 of its spells nerfed which should help PvZ, they gave the warp prism a huge amount of extra health which is pretty much all they can do to help protoss harass without adding new units.
On September 20 2011 08:31 Rkie wrote: wtf you can still NP Motherships?
In theory yes, but how is a zerg ever going to get within 7 range of a mothership and keep the infestor alive? Is the toss skipping colossi, HT, and bink?
On September 20 2011 11:19 Shiori wrote: so basically blizzard did nothing to address the ghost, nothing to address pvz in general, and nothing to give protoss harassment options (in fact they nerfed blink, lol). bravo.
Buffed immortal should help against terran in general, infestor had 2 of its spells nerfed which should help PvZ, they gave the warp prism a huge amount of extra health which is pretty much all they can do to help protoss harass without adding new units.
Bravo for making such an informed post though.
Protoss didn't really need help in that department...it will just help them beat us even more.
On September 20 2011 11:25 KeithONLINE wrote: I cannot seriously believe this patch is coming a few days after MC and Alicia get knocked out of Code A. Fuck that.
Not like it would have saved Alicia, Ghosts were not touched in anyway even though they've need a reevaluation for a while now.
And remember kids, every buildtime (except supply depot/cc) of terrans has been nerfed by 5 seconds. Since you need a barracks to make anything.. So in a way, ghosts are 5sec later from now on
On September 20 2011 08:54 Arisen wrote: Well, ghosts didn't get a nerf, that's super O.o
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the infestor nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and protoss is still pretty much unbeatable late game - infestors just give a few strong options for midgame. Good players can absolutely deal with infestors and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game phoenix, mothership, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about infestors and not being able to auto win versus zerg on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the ghost is killing everyfucking thing. Snipe's range is so insane and the ghost is now cheap on gas and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and zerg have and can cloak and snipe obs/overseers to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that zergs and protoss have tried everything and the ghost is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the infestor in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because zerg units are so cost inefficient (baring perhaps the BL). Terrans literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of ghosts in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both hive tech options as well as lair tech units (mutas and infestors get destroyed by snipe- they don't even need to use EMP) and every protoss unit with EMP.
Come on blizzard; please focus on stuff that actually needs attention rather than making changes for casual players :/
This is actually the most "Paper is fine and completely balanced, but for fucks sake rock is OBVIOUSLY a HUGE problem -Scissors" post i've seen in a while, kudos on the balance whine so whiney it actually made me giggle! For a laugh, Imma do the protoss version of what u just said except with the HT a few patches ago (with italics marking the only changes i made!).
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the High Templar nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and Terran is still Way too strong early-mid game - High Templar just give a few strong options for Protoss lategame. Good players can absolutely deal with High Templar and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game ghosts, battlecruiser, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about High Templar and not being able to auto win versus Protoss on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the Infestor is killing everyfucking thing. Nerual Parasites range is so insane and the Infestor is Cost effective vs everything and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and terran have and can Burrow and snipe Workers/bases with Infested terrans to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that terran and protoss have tried everything and the Infestor is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the High templar in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because Protoss units are so expensive we need strong AoE to make up for our lack of numbers. Zergs literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of Infestors in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both Stargate options as well as robo tech units (Collosi and immortals get destroyed by Neurals- they don't even need to use fungal) and every terran unit with Fungal Growth.
That was kinda fun :D.
Well, all my stuff was true, all yours wasn't? Name me a game where the protoss played well, didn't make any major mistakes and secured 3 base without huge losses and still lost versus zerg? For every 1 game you give me, I can give you 100 games of protoss rolling a zerg because he didn't have a game winning advantage going into lategame. That's just the way the matchup works, protoss lategame versus zerg is pretty much untouchable, so you have to win in the midgame. And while I think that reflects poor game design, it's the way things are. So why now is it justifiable to nerf the major component to making midgame zerg armies strong versus protoss when protoss have proven to be struggling in every single major tournament as of late.
As to comparing the ghost to the infestor; I don't know what to say about that. You're wrong, I suppose is the long and short of it. Yeah, if you could fungal growth and NP unhindered, I guess the infestor is on par with the ghost, but you can't. Tanks and ghosts outrange infestors by a ton, negating out spellcasters and snipe is equal range to brood lords, so they can be delt with safely and snipe is fantastic versus ultralisks as well. Ghosts can cast every spell cloaked and can snipe mobile detection before they can be targeted so they can remain untargatable. Sure, you can cast IT's burrowed...that does a lot versus a late game army with a ton of splash damage :/ (that is assuming they're bad enough to not have detection anyway, which zerg doesn't have a way of sniping easily...
The difference is I can give you a fuckton of examples of people dealing with infestors, wehre as you can't give me a lot of examples of people dealing with late game ghosts (at least ZvT).
That was kinda fun...
My point was your post (and this new one) are both INCREDIBLY biased towards your race in literally every way possible and any argument you make about literally anything can be thrown back at you with similar biased logic from any one of the other races point of views. I honestly fail to see any part of my post that spoke less truth than any of your opinions... Hell i'll do it again just for kicks...
Well, all my stuff was true, all yours wasn't? Name me a game where the Zerg played well, didn't make any major mistakes and punished a protoss player accordingly if he took 3 bases with equal econ and still lost to a zerg? For every 1 game you give me, I can give you 100 games of zerg rolling a protoss because he had an econ advantage going into lategame and rolled over him with infestor broodlord. That's just the way the matchup works,zerg cripples protoss going into late-game so the protoss cant do anything, so you have to win in the midgame with timing pushes or pray the zerg's a retard. And while I think that reflects poor game design, it's the way things are. So it is perfectly justifiable to nerf the major component to making midgame zerg armies strong versus protoss when protoss have proven to be able to deal with infesotrs fine?
As to comparing the ghost to the infestor; I don't know what to say about that. You're wrong, I suppose is the long and short of it. Yeah, if you could fungal growth and NP unhindered, I guess the infestor is on par with the ghost, but you can with broodlord support. broodlords and infestors outrange templar and stalker by a ton, and infestors fungalling negating out Our ability to blink and get under or away from broodlords and Neural is equal range to Collosi, so they can be delt with safely and neural is fantastic versus HT to feedbacking other HT as well. infestors can Hide behind broodslords, meaning you have to suicide a large amount of units just to have a chance at killing, combined with fungalling and running away or just burrowing make them practically untargatable. Sure, you can try to use your mobility to get around the slow zerg army, the only problem is that our most mobile units are all countered by lings which are even more mobile, and since broodlord infestor is a gas heavy combo, ling complement the combo perfectly allowing the zerg to shutdown any sort of harassment easily if he isnt a retard
The difference is I can give you a fuckton of examples of people dealing with greedy protosses trying to take a third and getting punished ridiculously hard, whilst you cant give me a lot of examples of people dealing with lategame broodlord infestor (atleast pvz)
But seriously, my point isn't that my edit of your posts holds true to what my opinion is, which I think is the part that you're missing, it's that my arguments, that seem so ridiculously stupid and obviously wrong to you, are actually on the same level of biased bullshit as yours are, all I've done is edited a few words to make it reflect the opposite side of the stories view, hence why EVERYONE but other butthurt zerg players will laugh at your post, my edits of your post, and the idea that people can actually be that 1-sided in their approach to sc2.
On September 20 2011 11:19 Shiori wrote: so basically blizzard did nothing to address the ghost, nothing to address pvz in general, and nothing to give protoss harassment options (in fact they nerfed blink, lol). bravo.
Buffed immortal should help against terran in general, infestor had 2 of its spells nerfed which should help PvZ, they gave the warp prism a huge amount of extra health which is pretty much all they can do to help protoss harass without adding new units.
Bravo for making such an informed post though.
immortals are not good units. they lose to stimmed marines, are marginally effective against marauders, but represent such a tech diversion that it's not worth it. the warp prism is utterly worthless because we have nothing economical to drop. the only good change is the neural parasite. fungal growth's damage is irrelevant to protoss. the root is the issue.
Is anyone discussing the increase build time to barracks? I feel like this will have huge implications for Terran yet I cannot find a blizzard explanation for this nerf nor any detailed discussion as to why it was made.
On September 20 2011 11:31 Vies wrote: Is anyone discussing the increase build time to barracks? I feel like this will have huge implications for Terran yet I cannot find a blizzard explanation for this nerf nor any detailed discussion as to why it was made.
Blizzard writes an after patch report detailing the changes and why they made them. It should be out within the week.
On September 20 2011 10:16 Eps wrote: Can you Kill with Mass EMPs? No. Can you Kill with Mass Fungals/Storms? Yes. Players don't Mass up Ghosts and win the game outright with them. They're a support unit and their role is a fine one at that. However people could Chain-Fungal units down and Carpet Storms are a Pain.
There's a big difference between the Casters and people aren't content until they're all the same.
Dude, that is such a bad argument. It's how they're designed, it's like me saying, "Voidrays can hit both air and ground, banshees only hit ground, HUURRR DUURRR THEIR UNDERPOWERED".
HTs and Infestors are support units too, you can't just win outright right with them, If you get enough infestors, sure. But that's why their getting nerf'd. Try massing HTs against a terran player, I'd love to see how you do.
The point is, both Zerg and Protoss rely on there casters so much if they go on that tech route, if they get EMP'd or die you pretty just lose the game. And then when you have a unit like the ghost that moves fast, easy to mass, good unit even without spells, EMP with a pretty big radius, and even snipe/cloak it's ridiculously hard to defend your casters against it, so saying you can 'chain storm' is stupid, I've been going HTs for 7-8 months vs Terran and still do. And manage to pull off only 1-2 storms even when I have spread HTs, just because the Terran has like 8 ghosts. Then have to rely on my HTs that I warped in prior to the battle that I kept safe, or use a warp prism.
I could go on and on about the imbalance of the difficulty in micro'ing a Protoss army to a Terran army, but I won't.
So your point about EMP not being able to win a game outright is stupid, because it can against a HT based army (Or an Infestor army 'probably'?, but I don't play Zerg so I wouldn't know)
You're overestimating the abilities of the Ghost unit. You say that they're good units without spells. Can you list any other combat unit that has a non-AOE damage of 10/20 vs Light for 200/100 resources? 2.25 Move Speed is considered Fast now? After the EMP's are cast, Ghosts are essentially Useless vs Protoss. While Templars can morph into a nice Bio wrecking ball called an Archon. 1-2 Storms is able to damage a Bio-Terran's main DPS unit - Marines and potentially kill many of them and damage Marauders fairly well.
The supposed "100" damage that EMP does to Protoss units is overkill in many situations. While Storms do not suffer from this.
There are pros and cons from both units and abilities. And from what you're saying it is a coin flipped situation based on which player has better Micro of Casters and Army. You talk a lot about Micro-ing a Protoss Army and how hard it is. Are you forgetting how Terrans have to Micro, Spread Bio and Kite to actually be effective against Chargelot/HT/Archon armies? And of course have Ghosts ready to EMP before the enemy Casters can?
The game has a micro component and it rewards whichever side micros better. I don't understand why there's so much complaints about it.
Sigh... Did you actually think I meant ghosts are a great unit with no spells? Them being decent units without spells against light units is just a bonus. Infestors and HTs can't even attack.
Yes 2.25 is considered fast when It's a HT vs ghost micro battle, very fast. Ghosts are not useless once you cast EMP lol...If you have like 6+ then you should have a lot of energy left over to snipe. Please don't mention Archons, they're practically useless against a lot of ghosts if they get double EMP'd.
Yes it's overkill if your bad at using EMP, it's an instant cast, shouldn't be too much trouble. Storms do not stack.
Kiting is not hard, splitting is not hard with fast units, snipe has 10 range so you can usually kill the HTs before they're even able to cast a feedback or storm. So no, it's not that hard, especially if you have a lot of scans to spot (Refer to Alicia vs Select).
What's your division in SC2 btw?
This also reminds me back in the day when Terrans were in denial about the reaper being overpowered, so disgusting to see.
Well, since the terran has to do all the micro vs a Chargelot - Archon - HT based army.. it would be pretty insane if the HT had equal range, use your spare apm (which you have after a-moving your chargelot/archons) to drop your HTs out of a warp prism..... or is that too hard?
On September 20 2011 11:23 Arisen wrote: Face it, terran has much better design overall. I'm sure that will be fixed with subsequent expansions, but for the time being, it's true.
I never claimed the units aren't used at all, I said that they are limited beyond the scope of having more early game options. Maybe having numerous openers and nifty things to do with your units constitutes as good design to you, its really a relative term anyway. I'd rather have units that have multiple uses and long-term viability. Reapers, ravens and BC's are units that I would consider extremely poorly designed overall.
Besides, TvT is a weird match-up where many terran units have a limited niche in the lategame, even the banshee/BC/raven. Still, its just one match-up, and I'd rather be able to see something else than MMM TvP and marine tank TvZ outside timing pushes before I call the race really well designed.
its funny when you guys watch the best terran "IMmvp" play with ghosts and require a nerf asap cause it makes tvz "imbalanced" news flash, you guys will never play immvp so dont worry about it yet, blizz will adjust ghosts if it's 100% needed, and they obv don't think so yet
On September 20 2011 10:16 Eps wrote: Can you Kill with Mass EMPs? No. Can you Kill with Mass Fungals/Storms? Yes. Players don't Mass up Ghosts and win the game outright with them. They're a support unit and their role is a fine one at that. However people could Chain-Fungal units down and Carpet Storms are a Pain.
There's a big difference between the Casters and people aren't content until they're all the same.
Dude, that is such a bad argument. It's how they're designed, it's like me saying, "Voidrays can hit both air and ground, banshees only hit ground, HUURRR DUURRR THEIR UNDERPOWERED".
HTs and Infestors are support units too, you can't just win outright right with them, If you get enough infestors, sure. But that's why their getting nerf'd. Try massing HTs against a terran player, I'd love to see how you do.
The point is, both Zerg and Protoss rely on there casters so much if they go on that tech route, if they get EMP'd or die you pretty just lose the game. And then when you have a unit like the ghost that moves fast, easy to mass, good unit even without spells, EMP with a pretty big radius, and even snipe/cloak it's ridiculously hard to defend your casters against it, so saying you can 'chain storm' is stupid, I've been going HTs for 7-8 months vs Terran and still do. And manage to pull off only 1-2 storms even when I have spread HTs, just because the Terran has like 8 ghosts. Then have to rely on my HTs that I warped in prior to the battle that I kept safe, or use a warp prism.
I could go on and on about the imbalance of the difficulty in micro'ing a Protoss army to a Terran army, but I won't.
So your point about EMP not being able to win a game outright is stupid, because it can against a HT based army (Or an Infestor army 'probably'?, but I don't play Zerg so I wouldn't know)
You're overestimating the abilities of the Ghost unit. You say that they're good units without spells. Can you list any other combat unit that has a non-AOE damage of 10/20 vs Light for 200/100 resources? 2.25 Move Speed is considered Fast now? After the EMP's are cast, Ghosts are essentially Useless vs Protoss. While Templars can morph into a nice Bio wrecking ball called an Archon. 1-2 Storms is able to damage a Bio-Terran's main DPS unit - Marines and potentially kill many of them and damage Marauders fairly well.
The supposed "100" damage that EMP does to Protoss units is overkill in many situations. While Storms do not suffer from this.
There are pros and cons from both units and abilities. And from what you're saying it is a coin flipped situation based on which player has better Micro of Casters and Army. You talk a lot about Micro-ing a Protoss Army and how hard it is. Are you forgetting how Terrans have to Micro, Spread Bio and Kite to actually be effective against Chargelot/HT/Archon armies? And of course have Ghosts ready to EMP before the enemy Casters can?
The game has a micro component and it rewards whichever side micros better. I don't understand why there's so much complaints about it.
Sigh... Did you actually think I meant ghosts are a great unit with no spells? Them being decent units without spells against light units is just a bonus. Infestors and HTs can't even attack.
Yes 2.25 is considered fast when It's a HT vs ghost micro battle, very fast. Ghosts are not useless once you cast EMP lol...If you have like 6+ then you should have a lot of energy left over to snipe. Please don't mention Archons, they're practically useless against a lot of ghosts if they get double EMP'd.
Yes it's overkill if your bad at using EMP, it's an instant cast, shouldn't be too much trouble. Storms do not stack.
Kiting is not hard, splitting is not hard with fast units, snipe has 10 range so you can usually kill the HTs before they're even able to cast a feedback or storm. So no, it's not that hard, especially if you have a lot of scans to spot (Refer to Alicia vs Select).
What's your division in SC2 btw?
This also reminds me back in the day when Terrans were in denial about the reaper being overpowered, so disgusting to see.
Well, since the terran has to do all the micro vs a Zealot - Archon - HT based army.. it would be pretty insane if the HT had equal range, use your spare apm (which you have after a-moving your Zealot/archons) to drop your HTs out of a warp prism.....
Actually it wouldn't be HTs are slow anyway. I already do use a warp prism. Every game. Nowadays you have to use a warp prism if you want to use a HT based army, and hey, I win half my PvT's, point is there vs not great players, put me up against someone like Puma and I don't think a warp prism is going to solve all my problems.
On September 20 2011 11:31 Vies wrote: Is anyone discussing the increase build time to barracks? I feel like this will have huge implications for Terran yet I cannot find a blizzard explanation for this nerf nor any detailed discussion as to why it was made.
mainly for 11/11 2 rax... I'm not sure why your whining so much about a 5 sec nerf. it's not a big deal
On September 20 2011 11:27 Loxley wrote: And remember kids, every buildtime (except supply depot/cc) of terrans has been nerfed by 5 seconds. Since you need a barracks to make anything.. So in a way, ghosts are 5sec later from now on
5 seconds game time which is about 3 seconds real time. You know the difference three seconds makes?
Lets just say, T's wont need to worry about changing their timing windows.
On September 20 2011 11:31 Vies wrote: Is anyone discussing the increase build time to barracks? I feel like this will have huge implications for Terran yet I cannot find a blizzard explanation for this nerf nor any detailed discussion as to why it was made.
mainly for 11/11 2 rax... I'm not sure why your whining so much about a 5 sec nerf. it's not a big deal
Yeah. It's actually okay for me, cuz when I did my 11/12 2rax, my rax would finish a few seconds before 14th SCV, and I had to cut either scv or marine production for a couple seconds to make supply. Now it will all be fine :O
On September 20 2011 11:31 Vies wrote: Is anyone discussing the increase build time to barracks? I feel like this will have huge implications for Terran yet I cannot find a blizzard explanation for this nerf nor any detailed discussion as to why it was made.
mainly for 11/11 2 rax... I'm not sure why your whining so much about a 5 sec nerf. it's not a big deal
Yeah. It's actually okay for me, cuz when I did my 11/12 2rax, my rax would finish a few seconds before 14th SCV, and I had to cut either scv or marine production for a couple seconds to make supply. Now it will all be fine :O
I said "I feel like this will have huge implications for Terran." That does not even imply I play Terran nor does it imply i'm whining about it but whatever. Thanks for the explanation because blizz seem to have failed to explain it.
As for "It's not a big deal." You have to think further than just the 2 rax vs zerg. Think of every units that Terran requires a barracks for..... That's every unit. If we want a reaper its still the 25 seconds tech lab + 5 seconds later. This goes for every unit including tech past the barracks. Everything that terran can do is atleast 5 seconds later. This gives every race more time to prepare for absolutely everything terran can do. I can't see how this will not have drastic implications.
On September 20 2011 08:54 Arisen wrote: Well, ghosts didn't get a nerf, that's super O.o
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the infestor nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and protoss is still pretty much unbeatable late game - infestors just give a few strong options for midgame. Good players can absolutely deal with infestors and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game phoenix, mothership, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about infestors and not being able to auto win versus zerg on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the ghost is killing everyfucking thing. Snipe's range is so insane and the ghost is now cheap on gas and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and zerg have and can cloak and snipe obs/overseers to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that zergs and protoss have tried everything and the ghost is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the infestor in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because zerg units are so cost inefficient (baring perhaps the BL). Terrans literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of ghosts in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both hive tech options as well as lair tech units (mutas and infestors get destroyed by snipe- they don't even need to use EMP) and every protoss unit with EMP.
Come on blizzard; please focus on stuff that actually needs attention rather than making changes for casual players :/
This is actually the most "Paper is fine and completely balanced, but for fucks sake rock is OBVIOUSLY a HUGE problem -Scissors" post i've seen in a while, kudos on the balance whine so whiney it actually made me giggle! For a laugh, Imma do the protoss version of what u just said except with the HT a few patches ago (with italics marking the only changes i made!).
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the High Templar nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and Terran is still Way too strong early-mid game - High Templar just give a few strong options for Protoss lategame. Good players can absolutely deal with High Templar and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game ghosts, battlecruiser, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about High Templar and not being able to auto win versus Protoss on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the Infestor is killing everyfucking thing. Nerual Parasites range is so insane and the Infestor is Cost effective vs everything and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and terran have and can Burrow and snipe Workers/bases with Infested terrans to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that terran and protoss have tried everything and the Infestor is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the High templar in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because Protoss units are so expensive we need strong AoE to make up for our lack of numbers. Zergs literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of Infestors in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both Stargate options as well as robo tech units (Collosi and immortals get destroyed by Neurals- they don't even need to use fungal) and every terran unit with Fungal Growth.
That was kinda fun :D.
Well, all my stuff was true, all yours wasn't? Name me a game where the protoss played well, didn't make any major mistakes and secured 3 base without huge losses and still lost versus zerg? For every 1 game you give me, I can give you 100 games of protoss rolling a zerg because he didn't have a game winning advantage going into lategame. That's just the way the matchup works, protoss lategame versus zerg is pretty much untouchable, so you have to win in the midgame. And while I think that reflects poor game design, it's the way things are. So why now is it justifiable to nerf the major component to making midgame zerg armies strong versus protoss when protoss have proven to be struggling in every single major tournament as of late.
As to comparing the ghost to the infestor; I don't know what to say about that. You're wrong, I suppose is the long and short of it. Yeah, if you could fungal growth and NP unhindered, I guess the infestor is on par with the ghost, but you can't. Tanks and ghosts outrange infestors by a ton, negating out spellcasters and snipe is equal range to brood lords, so they can be delt with safely and snipe is fantastic versus ultralisks as well. Ghosts can cast every spell cloaked and can snipe mobile detection before they can be targeted so they can remain untargatable. Sure, you can cast IT's burrowed...that does a lot versus a late game army with a ton of splash damage :/ (that is assuming they're bad enough to not have detection anyway, which zerg doesn't have a way of sniping easily...
The difference is I can give you a fuckton of examples of people dealing with infestors, wehre as you can't give me a lot of examples of people dealing with late game ghosts (at least ZvT).
That was kinda fun...
My point was your post (and this new one) are both INCREDIBLY biased towards your race in literally every way possible and any argument you make about literally anything can be thrown back at you with similar biased logic from any one of the other races point of views. I honestly fail to see any part of my post that spoke less truth than any of your opinions... Hell i'll do it again just for kicks...
Well, all my stuff was true, all yours wasn't? Name me a game where the Zerg played well, didn't make any major mistakes and punished a protoss player accordingly if he took 3 bases with equal econ and still lost to a zerg? For every 1 game you give me, I can give you 100 games of zerg rolling a protoss because he had an econ advantage going into lategame and rolled over him with infestor broodlord. That's just the way the matchup works,zerg cripples protoss going into late-game so the protoss cant do anything, so you have to win in the midgame with timing pushes or pray the zerg's a retard. And while I think that reflects poor game design, it's the way things are. So it is perfectly justifiable to nerf the major component to making midgame zerg armies strong versus protoss when protoss have proven to be able to deal with infesotrs fine?
As to comparing the ghost to the infestor; I don't know what to say about that. You're wrong, I suppose is the long and short of it. Yeah, if you could fungal growth and NP unhindered, I guess the infestor is on par with the ghost, but you can with broodlord support. broodlords and infestors outrange templar and stalker by a ton, and infestors fungalling negating out Our ability to blink and get under or away from broodlords and Neural is equal range to Collosi, so they can be delt with safely and neural is fantastic versus HT to feedbacking other HT as well. infestors can Hide behind broodslords, meaning you have to suicide a large amount of units just to have a chance at killing, combined with fungalling and running away or just burrowing make them practically untargatable. Sure, you can try to use your mobility to get around the slow zerg army, the only problem is that our most mobile units are all countered by lings which are even more mobile, and since broodlord infestor is a gas heavy combo, ling complement the combo perfectly allowing the zerg to shutdown any sort of harassment easily if he isnt a retard
The difference is I can give you a fuckton of examples of people dealing with greedy protosses trying to take a third and getting punished ridiculously hard, whilst you cant give me a lot of examples of people dealing with lategame broodlord infestor (atleast pvz)
But seriously, my point isn't that my edit of your posts holds true to what my opinion is, which I think is the part that you're missing, it's that my arguments, that seem so ridiculously stupid and obviously wrong to you, are actually on the same level of biased bullshit as yours are, all I've done is edited a few words to make it reflect the opposite side of the stories view, hence why EVERYONE but other butthurt zerg players will laugh at your post, my edits of your post, and the idea that people can actually be that 1-sided in their approach to sc2.
But seriously, my point is that I can actually produce a ton of games where a protoss player gets his 3 base secured with colossus/HT even if the zerg is pressuring and wins easily. I can also give you a lot of examples of protoss beating infestor broodlord quite easily.
Ffs, I can give you plenty of examples of combat-ex rolling infestor brood lord (at high grandmaster) with pretty much pure blink stalkers and combat ex is fucking horrible.
RSVP and Kiwikaki use motherships, and they roll zergs. Some people use phoenix and lift infestors and just destroy the rest of the army.
Yeah, I can totally understand your frustrations, PvZ midgame is a bitch. However, lategame ZvP is a bitch (some top players not too long ago wouldn't practice the matchup because it was unlosable unless you did something retarded). That's why EVERYONE but other butthurt people who can't deal with infestors will laugh at your post, and the idea that anyone can be that ignorant.
Also, you turned a TvZ discussion somehow right back to ZvP, so I don't know how that fits in...
On September 20 2011 08:54 Arisen wrote: Well, ghosts didn't get a nerf, that's super O.o
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the infestor nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and protoss is still pretty much unbeatable late game - infestors just give a few strong options for midgame. Good players can absolutely deal with infestors and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game phoenix, mothership, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about infestors and not being able to auto win versus zerg on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the ghost is killing everyfucking thing. Snipe's range is so insane and the ghost is now cheap on gas and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and zerg have and can cloak and snipe obs/overseers to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that zergs and protoss have tried everything and the ghost is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the infestor in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because zerg units are so cost inefficient (baring perhaps the BL). Terrans literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of ghosts in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both hive tech options as well as lair tech units (mutas and infestors get destroyed by snipe- they don't even need to use EMP) and every protoss unit with EMP.
Come on blizzard; please focus on stuff that actually needs attention rather than making changes for casual players :/
This is actually the most "Paper is fine and completely balanced, but for fucks sake rock is OBVIOUSLY a HUGE problem -Scissors" post i've seen in a while, kudos on the balance whine so whiney it actually made me giggle! For a laugh, Imma do the protoss version of what u just said except with the HT a few patches ago (with italics marking the only changes i made!).
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the High Templar nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and Terran is still Way too strong early-mid game - High Templar just give a few strong options for Protoss lategame. Good players can absolutely deal with High Templar and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game ghosts, battlecruiser, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about High Templar and not being able to auto win versus Protoss on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the Infestor is killing everyfucking thing. Nerual Parasites range is so insane and the Infestor is Cost effective vs everything and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and terran have and can Burrow and snipe Workers/bases with Infested terrans to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that terran and protoss have tried everything and the Infestor is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the High templar in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because Protoss units are so expensive we need strong AoE to make up for our lack of numbers. Zergs literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of Infestors in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both Stargate options as well as robo tech units (Collosi and immortals get destroyed by Neurals- they don't even need to use fungal) and every terran unit with Fungal Growth.
That was kinda fun :D.
Well, all my stuff was true, all yours wasn't? Name me a game where the protoss played well, didn't make any major mistakes and secured 3 base without huge losses and still lost versus zerg? For every 1 game you give me, I can give you 100 games of protoss rolling a zerg because he didn't have a game winning advantage going into lategame. That's just the way the matchup works, protoss lategame versus zerg is pretty much untouchable, so you have to win in the midgame. And while I think that reflects poor game design, it's the way things are. So why now is it justifiable to nerf the major component to making midgame zerg armies strong versus protoss when protoss have proven to be struggling in every single major tournament as of late.
As to comparing the ghost to the infestor; I don't know what to say about that. You're wrong, I suppose is the long and short of it. Yeah, if you could fungal growth and NP unhindered, I guess the infestor is on par with the ghost, but you can't. Tanks and ghosts outrange infestors by a ton, negating out spellcasters and snipe is equal range to brood lords, so they can be delt with safely and snipe is fantastic versus ultralisks as well. Ghosts can cast every spell cloaked and can snipe mobile detection before they can be targeted so they can remain untargatable. Sure, you can cast IT's burrowed...that does a lot versus a late game army with a ton of splash damage :/ (that is assuming they're bad enough to not have detection anyway, which zerg doesn't have a way of sniping easily...
The difference is I can give you a fuckton of examples of people dealing with infestors, wehre as you can't give me a lot of examples of people dealing with late game ghosts (at least ZvT).
That was kinda fun...
My point was your post (and this new one) are both INCREDIBLY biased towards your race in literally every way possible and any argument you make about literally anything can be thrown back at you with similar biased logic from any one of the other races point of views. I honestly fail to see any part of my post that spoke less truth than any of your opinions... Hell i'll do it again just for kicks...
Well, all my stuff was true, all yours wasn't? Name me a game where the Zerg played well, didn't make any major mistakes and punished a protoss player accordingly if he took 3 bases with equal econ and still lost to a zerg? For every 1 game you give me, I can give you 100 games of zerg rolling a protoss because he had an econ advantage going into lategame and rolled over him with infestor broodlord. That's just the way the matchup works,zerg cripples protoss going into late-game so the protoss cant do anything, so you have to win in the midgame with timing pushes or pray the zerg's a retard. And while I think that reflects poor game design, it's the way things are. So it is perfectly justifiable to nerf the major component to making midgame zerg armies strong versus protoss when protoss have proven to be able to deal with infesotrs fine?
As to comparing the ghost to the infestor; I don't know what to say about that. You're wrong, I suppose is the long and short of it. Yeah, if you could fungal growth and NP unhindered, I guess the infestor is on par with the ghost, but you can with broodlord support. broodlords and infestors outrange templar and stalker by a ton, and infestors fungalling negating out Our ability to blink and get under or away from broodlords and Neural is equal range to Collosi, so they can be delt with safely and neural is fantastic versus HT to feedbacking other HT as well. infestors can Hide behind broodslords, meaning you have to suicide a large amount of units just to have a chance at killing, combined with fungalling and running away or just burrowing make them practically untargatable. Sure, you can try to use your mobility to get around the slow zerg army, the only problem is that our most mobile units are all countered by lings which are even more mobile, and since broodlord infestor is a gas heavy combo, ling complement the combo perfectly allowing the zerg to shutdown any sort of harassment easily if he isnt a retard
The difference is I can give you a fuckton of examples of people dealing with greedy protosses trying to take a third and getting punished ridiculously hard, whilst you cant give me a lot of examples of people dealing with lategame broodlord infestor (atleast pvz)
But seriously, my point isn't that my edit of your posts holds true to what my opinion is, which I think is the part that you're missing, it's that my arguments, that seem so ridiculously stupid and obviously wrong to you, are actually on the same level of biased bullshit as yours are, all I've done is edited a few words to make it reflect the opposite side of the stories view, hence why EVERYONE but other butthurt zerg players will laugh at your post, my edits of your post, and the idea that people can actually be that 1-sided in their approach to sc2.
Also, you turned a TvZ discussion somehow right back to ZvP, so I don't know how that fits in...
Re-read the last paragraph of my last post, thats how it fits in, THAT's my point, everything else is just mocking you, how are you not getting this.
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
The mech reigns no more.
What's that I hear? Is is a marine?! IS HE READY TO ATTACK!?!
I don't think mech will go away at all. In fact, I think it will still be the dominant strategy for TvT. Even with the nerf, marines still take 3 volleys from a BFH to die (unless infantry armor is lvl2 and mech ground weapons is lvl0).
What the nerf is good for is that hellions killing scvs isn't AS deadly as before (but 4 hellions in your mineral line will still fuck shit up).
Well it's finally here. I'm not so excited about zerg, but who knows? Maybe the drone change and barracks change will make it so I don't get destroyed by 2rax anymore ^^
On September 20 2011 12:20 GMonster wrote: Suprised that there is no Ghost change. I mean i fucking love it but... feels like there needs to be something done to the ghost.
That is probably next on the chopping block. I would be willing to bet we will see an increase in Ghost play after this patch is implemented.
On September 20 2011 12:20 GMonster wrote: Suprised that there is no Ghost change. I mean i fucking love it but... feels like there needs to be something done to the ghost.
That is probably next on the chopping block. I would be willing to bet we will see an increase in Ghost play after this patch is implemented.
and whats wrong with the ghost? while we are it , lets nerf everything terran has, lets delete the fucking race from the game.
On September 20 2011 12:20 GMonster wrote: Suprised that there is no Ghost change. I mean i fucking love it but... feels like there needs to be something done to the ghost.
That is probably next on the chopping block. I would be willing to bet we will see an increase in Ghost play after this patch is implemented.
and whats wrong with the ghost? while we are it , lets nerf everything terran has, lets delete the fucking race from the game.
EMP range 10
That's it right there.
Ghosts beat HT assuming equal micro on both sides every single time. Ghosts beat Infestors assuming equal micro on both sides. Range 9 EMP is almost guaranteed to be next patch... it only makes sense.
Well at least they didn't make NP useless, but it will def b harder to use... I can't say I am happy with the patch as a Z but it could have been worse.
On September 20 2011 12:20 GMonster wrote: Suprised that there is no Ghost change. I mean i fucking love it but... feels like there needs to be something done to the ghost.
That is probably next on the chopping block. I would be willing to bet we will see an increase in Ghost play after this patch is implemented.
and whats wrong with the ghost? while we are it , lets nerf everything terran has, lets delete the fucking race from the game.
Dude, come on. The ghost is the best unit in the game. It has a AoE that kills energy/protoss shields and has a cheap spell that destroys all zerg units incredibly fast at an extremely high range (equal or greater to every zerg unit) and now it doesn't cost very much gas. That's not to take into account late game nuke harass and the fact that they can snipe the other races mobile detection to make them invulnerable as long as they have energy. Yeah, Terran probably needs the ghost to deal late game, but in its current incarnation, even quite a few terran players admit it's too strong. It is literally good against every single unit the protoss and zerg have with little to no drawback (super long range, cheap, fast and easy to get)
I love that zergs are actually complaining about ghosts after 1 high profile game they won against zerg. Its like 45 damage for 25 energy, manually casted, is suddenly the most overpowered thing in the world. Imagine if it was Nestea owning entire armies with smart fungals and infested terrans, would anyone have made a single balance complaint?
But since it was MVP and terran, one single game is enough to call a unit imbalanced. Amazing.
On September 20 2011 12:52 armada[sb] wrote: I really wish they would just make EMP range 9 and target specific units instead of aoe, what problems would arise from this?
Well, terran would never beat a lategame protoss army in a straight up fight for starters.
On September 20 2011 12:52 armada[sb] wrote: I really wish they would just make EMP range 9 and target specific units instead of aoe, what problems would arise from this?
I'd like an explanation of this as well—why is it necessary for EMP to be AOE but feedback must target single units?
On September 20 2011 08:27 GGzerG wrote: Well it is official, time to switch to Protoss. I agree with the overseer , ultralisk and fungal change, but the neural parasite change is really going to make late game really hard for zerg I think...Like when the map gets cut in half... T_T
I watch alot of pro games, and i rarely see neural parasite being used to great effect at the highest level (losira in the AOL games thats about it) i honestly dont think its gonna change much, you can still neural and collosus were still in range before to target them down and they will be in range but just slightly closer now.
Its not like we really saw neural being implemented that much at the highest level, give me another example besides losira in his arena of legends game where neural was being used to a large extent to counter collosus. I cant really think of any even.
Imo, good infestor use in ZvP is one of the few areas where non-Koreans have been metagame- innovators over the last few months. I'm not a big Destiny fan, but we now see Koreans doing 2-base infested Terran aggression in ZvP.
Many other threads have comments suggesting that toss has been getting rolled in Korea before the stage of the game when the infestors come out.
GSL Code A Round of 32 Day 1 contained a lot of infestor usage in ZvPm including neural on colossus (with mixed success).
tl;dr While I think the game should be balanced around the higher levels, that doesn't mean that innovation always happens, first, at these highest levels. I believe it was Puma who admitted to tweaking a strategy that he gleaned from a lower-league player. I think the Koreans have actually been behind the curve in recognizing the full potential of the infestor in ZvP.
On September 20 2011 12:52 armada[sb] wrote: I really wish they would just make EMP range 9 and target specific units instead of aoe, what problems would arise from this?
I'd like an explanation of this as well—why is it necessary for EMP to be AOE but feedback must target single units?
Genuinely curious.
The explanation you will probably hear is that feedback deals damage. Which of course is nonsense too, because most energy using units are as good as dead without it.
On September 20 2011 12:52 armada[sb] wrote: I really wish they would just make EMP range 9 and target specific units instead of aoe, what problems would arise from this?
I'd like an explanation of this as well—why is it necessary for EMP to be AOE but feedback must target single units?
Genuinely curious.
Why does snipe have to be single target and only work on biological units, when storm is an AOE that hurts everything?
Different spells work differently. Good EMP's are actually a requirement for terran to stand up to the protoss army in the lategame. Anyone who truly thinks single-target EMP would balance the match-up should tell what league and race they play in.
On September 20 2011 12:52 armada[sb] wrote: I really wish they would just make EMP range 9 and target specific units instead of aoe, what problems would arise from this?
tvp is so retarded right now. it's like terran are like 70-30 against protoss until collosus/ht kick in. then it's like 55-45/60-40 for terran. then when archon + collosus + ht kick in t can't win anymore. doing that wouldn't help.
Agree with everything but the barracks change, this could've easily been fixed with map changes.
Also the hellion nerf will change tvt a lot, since you now almost won't be able to stop a marine-tank-viking/medevac push while opening blue flame. And opening blue flame just used to be the safe build in going mech.
On September 20 2011 12:20 GMonster wrote: Suprised that there is no Ghost change. I mean i fucking love it but... feels like there needs to be something done to the ghost.
That is probably next on the chopping block. I would be willing to bet we will see an increase in Ghost play after this patch is implemented.
and whats wrong with the ghost? while we are it , lets nerf everything terran has, lets delete the fucking race from the game.
Dude, come on. The ghost is the best unit in the game. It has a AoE that kills energy/protoss shields and has a cheap spell that destroys all zerg units incredibly fast at an extremely high range (equal or greater to every zerg unit) and now it doesn't cost very much gas. That's not to take into account late game nuke harass and the fact that they can snipe the other races mobile detection to make them invulnerable as long as they have energy. Yeah, Terran probably needs the ghost to deal late game, but in its current incarnation, even quite a few terran players admit it's too strong. It is literally good against every single unit the protoss and zerg have with little to no drawback (super long range, cheap, fast and easy to get)
The ghost builds very slowly, and to be effective vs zerg T3 you need a ton of them(not just 5-8). Marauders are still an equally sound response to ultras and you still need vikings to deal the real damage vs ling/infestor/broodlord comp. And when you take into account the zerg's ability to remax quickly(even more now with the ultra change), the energy to snipe often just doesn't build up quickly enough to defend a well executed 300 food push. I'm just thinking that the recent success with ghosts we've seen were in matchups where the player who lost wasn't a favorite anyway.
Anyway take my comments with a grain of salt, it's just my idea on the matter.
On September 20 2011 12:52 Bagi wrote: I love that zergs are actually complaining about ghosts after 1 high profile game they won against zerg. Its like 45 damage for 25 energy, manually casted, is suddenly the most overpowered thing in the world. Imagine if it was Nestea owning entire armies with smart fungals and infested terrans, would anyone have made a single balance complaint?
But since it was MVP and terran, one single game is enough to call a unit imbalanced. Amazing.
That is until you realize that a lot of people use it and don't lose late game TvZ. Thorzain and demuslim for example. July vs MVP was just the first GSL code S match that showed heavy use of snipe, but Terrans have been raping zergs with this for awhile.
My music on the new patch is bugged, idk if its the same for anyone else. New pvp changes are quite awesome tho, just played a couple and 4gate is pretty hard to pull off (not impossible tho).
On September 20 2011 12:52 Bagi wrote: I love that zergs are actually complaining about ghosts after 1 high profile game they won against zerg. Its like 45 damage for 25 energy, manually casted, is suddenly the most overpowered thing in the world. Imagine if it was Nestea owning entire armies with smart fungals and infested terrans, would anyone have made a single balance complaint?
But since it was MVP and terran, one single game is enough to call a unit imbalanced. Amazing.
On September 20 2011 12:52 armada[sb] wrote: I really wish they would just make EMP range 9 and target specific units instead of aoe, what problems would arise from this?
Well, terran would never beat a lategame protoss army in a straight up fight for starters.
are you serious? do u know that a fully upgraded TvP 200 vs 200, Terran MMMG will own whatever protoss has to offer if 0 storms go off? And most of the time, terran will completely EMP all the templars and continue to EMP the rest of the army to make the battle even more one sided? I doubt you watch enough TvP
On September 20 2011 13:00 Grndr101 wrote: The ghost builds very slowly, and to be effective vs zerg T3 you need a ton of them(not just 5-8). Marauders are still an equally sound response to ultras and you still need vikings to deal the real damage vs ling/infestor/broodlord comp. And when you take into account the zerg's ability to remax quickly(even more now with the ultra change), the energy to snipe often just doesn't build up quickly enough to defend a well executed 300 food push. I'm just thinking that the recent success with ghosts we've seen were in matchups where the player who lost wasn't a favorite anyway.
Anyway take my comments with a grain of salt, it's just my idea on the matter.
The ghost does not train very slowly. Also, you can make 0 vikings and still destroy BL infestor ling. ghosts have the same range and kill brood lords very fast (while being cloaked), vast range with emp over infestors, and can just snipe the infestors anyway. the lings are dealt with by your tanks/marines.
On September 20 2011 12:52 Bagi wrote: I love that zergs are actually complaining about ghosts after 1 high profile game they won against zerg. Its like 45 damage for 25 energy, manually casted, is suddenly the most overpowered thing in the world. Imagine if it was Nestea owning entire armies with smart fungals and infested terrans, would anyone have made a single balance complaint?
But since it was MVP and terran, one single game is enough to call a unit imbalanced. Amazing.
On September 20 2011 12:52 armada[sb] wrote: I really wish they would just make EMP range 9 and target specific units instead of aoe, what problems would arise from this?
Well, terran would never beat a lategame protoss army in a straight up fight for starters.
are you serious? do u know that a fully upgraded TvP 200 vs 200, Terran MMMG will own whatever protoss has to offer if 0 storms go off? And most of the time, terran will completely EMP all the templars and continue to EMP the rest of the army to make the battle even more one sided? I doubt you watch enough TvP
Even when 0 storms go off, MMM/viking against chargelot/archon/colossi depends on micro and positioning. If a single storm goes off due to HT being in WP or such, you're already at a disadvantage as the terran. Trust me, its not nearly as one-sided as you believe.
On September 20 2011 12:52 Bagi wrote: I love that zergs are actually complaining about ghosts after 1 high profile game they won against zerg. Its like 45 damage for 25 energy, manually casted, is suddenly the most overpowered thing in the world. Imagine if it was Nestea owning entire armies with smart fungals and infested terrans, would anyone have made a single balance complaint?
But since it was MVP and terran, one single game is enough to call a unit imbalanced. Amazing.
That is until you realize that a lot of people use it and don't lose late game TvZ. Thorzain and demuslim for example. July vs MVP was just the first GSL code S match that showed heavy use of snipe, but Terrans have been raping zergs with this for awhile.
Yeah well, lets get back on the issue when you have more to offer than hearsay. Not to mention zergs haven't even had time to figure out the best counters to ghosts. The situation is hardly developed enough.
On September 20 2011 12:53 vandelayindustries wrote:
On September 20 2011 12:52 armada[sb] wrote: I really wish they would just make EMP range 9 and target specific units instead of aoe, what problems would arise from this?
I'd like an explanation of this as well—why is it necessary for EMP to be AOE but feedback must target single units?
Genuinely curious.
The explanation you will probably hear is that feedback deals damage. Which of course is nonsense too, because most energy using units are as good as dead without it.
On September 20 2011 08:54 Arisen wrote: Well, ghosts didn't get a nerf, that's super O.o
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the infestor nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and protoss is still pretty much unbeatable late game - infestors just give a few strong options for midgame. Good players can absolutely deal with infestors and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game phoenix, mothership, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about infestors and not being able to auto win versus zerg on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the ghost is killing everyfucking thing. Snipe's range is so insane and the ghost is now cheap on gas and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and zerg have and can cloak and snipe obs/overseers to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that zergs and protoss have tried everything and the ghost is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the infestor in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because zerg units are so cost inefficient (baring perhaps the BL). Terrans literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of ghosts in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both hive tech options as well as lair tech units (mutas and infestors get destroyed by snipe- they don't even need to use EMP) and every protoss unit with EMP.
Come on blizzard; please focus on stuff that actually needs attention rather than making changes for casual players :/
This is actually the most "Paper is fine and completely balanced, but for fucks sake rock is OBVIOUSLY a HUGE problem -Scissors" post i've seen in a while, kudos on the balance whine so whiney it actually made me giggle! For a laugh, Imma do the protoss version of what u just said except with the HT a few patches ago (with italics marking the only changes i made!).
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the High Templar nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and Terran is still Way too strong early-mid game - High Templar just give a few strong options for Protoss lategame. Good players can absolutely deal with High Templar and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game ghosts, battlecruiser, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about High Templar and not being able to auto win versus Protoss on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the Infestor is killing everyfucking thing. Nerual Parasites range is so insane and the Infestor is Cost effective vs everything and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and terran have and can Burrow and snipe Workers/bases with Infested terrans to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that terran and protoss have tried everything and the Infestor is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the High templar in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because Protoss units are so expensive we need strong AoE to make up for our lack of numbers. Zergs literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of Infestors in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both Stargate options as well as robo tech units (Collosi and immortals get destroyed by Neurals- they don't even need to use fungal) and every terran unit with Fungal Growth.
That was kinda fun :D.
Holy shit I think you just won the thread !!
Im excited for the changes since I was getting tired of vsing infestors all the time in zvz and tvz, and I'm also excited to see hellions in TvT or ZvT as much ^____^. Though I'm sure the reactor hellion expand build should still remain strong despite the 5 second rax build time increase.
On September 20 2011 13:09 Bagi wrote: Yeah well, lets get back on the issue when you have more to offer than hearsay. Not to mention zergs haven't even had time to figure out the best counters to ghosts. The situation is hardly developed enough.
What I have to offer is proof that the ghost is extremely cost efficient versus any lategame zerg army to the point where Terrans don't really lose after they get them out in a decent number as well as zerg not having anything that can actually touch them due to cloaking mechanics and sniping overseers as well as the ghost outranging every zerg unit. What is the composition that can go kill them, really? TLO has been using this since GSL 1 (or 2, his first season either way), it's been quite a while...nope, still no answer.
Kind of surprised to see the Infestor nerf go through. Not complaining though haha. I do wish that Zerg was a little more versatile in terms of strategies.
On September 20 2011 08:28 LagT_T wrote: 50 gas for a detector? Preposterous!
Spore crawlers are 75 minerals, and 0 gas.
Spore crawlers actual cost goes much higher and deeper than just 75 minerals and 0 gas. Resources used: 2 larva 2 drones (100 minerals) 75 minerals for the evo chamber 75 minerals for the spore.
So the real cost of spore crawler detection for zerg is actually 2 larva and 250 minerals, not 75.
On September 20 2011 13:09 Bagi wrote: Yeah well, lets get back on the issue when you have more to offer than hearsay. Not to mention zergs haven't even had time to figure out the best counters to ghosts. The situation is hardly developed enough.
What I have to offer is proof that the ghost is extremely cost efficient versus any lategame zerg army to the point where Terrans don't really lose after they get them out in a decent number as well as zerg not having anything that can actually touch them due to cloaking mechanics and sniping overseers as well as the ghost outranging every zerg unit. What is the composition that can go kill them, really? TLO has been using this since GSL 1 (or 2, his first season either way), it's been quite a while...nope, still no answer.
Similar arguments could be made for many units if we assume perfect control. On paper, infestors can chain fungal protoss deathballs and kill them without taking a single hit, not even feedbacks reach them with proper fungals. In the actual game however, mistakes happen and units like infestors just like ghosts suddenly get caught by enemy spells and killed by... Any unit in the game really? I just watched Thorzain do ghosts against Haypro on Metalopolis in the MLG tournament, and eventually giving up on them because he just lost too many to fungals/broodlords and couldn't really scratch ultralisks with them. Turned out regular old MMM with heavy drops did a much better job in the end.
Besides, using players like TLO as an example isn't really helping your argument. Ghosts are a viable tactic among many at this point, not even the standard for most. Calling for nerfs before they have really even entered the metagame is just a typical knee-jerk reaction from the crowd that seems to think that the only solution for a potentially strong strategy is to make Blizzard nerf it.
On September 20 2011 10:16 Eps wrote: Can you Kill with Mass EMPs? No. Can you Kill with Mass Fungals/Storms? Yes. Players don't Mass up Ghosts and win the game outright with them. They're a support unit and their role is a fine one at that. However people could Chain-Fungal units down and Carpet Storms are a Pain.
There's a big difference between the Casters and people aren't content until they're all the same.
Can a Toss army run away from a stimmed bioball after being EMP'd? No. Or do you land EMPs and then run away and let their shields recharge.
At least terrans can run away from storms and let their medivacs heal them. If the entire toss army is EMPd then it's game over.
On September 20 2011 10:52 WinteRR wrote: How can people say TvZ has serious balance issues when Z has had a sharp incline in winrate % in Korea since the original FG change? Z finally overtook T in Korea for the first time, things look promising on the Z front in TvZ if you ask me - especially considering the latest T nerfs to hellions and barracks (where most zergs were losing games straight up).
Watch the July vs MVP game on metalopolis (or Thorzain versus Catz or any demuslim game versus zerg). That's why people are saying there's a problem with TvZ. The July MVP game isn't the best example as july made some questionable decisions, but once terran has a sufficient amount of tank/ghost you can't touch them.
I did watch that game, and that is what EVERYONE says and it's a completely wrong context. It's basically the same as "Oh you should harass zerg or you lose" - you can't let Terrans have more than 2 bases than you like MVP did. He was in the most comfortable position and he could afford to get a ridiculous amount of ghosts without dying.
This patch should be ok, although I'm not sure what to think of ZvT still. Even as a Zerg, I like the fungal nerf a lot because it will take better timing to use it to it's full potential. Overlapping fungals is going to be a costly mistake, and it will be another measure by which we can determine the best Zergs from the rest.
On September 20 2011 08:54 Arisen wrote: Well, ghosts didn't get a nerf, that's super O.o
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the infestor nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and protoss is still pretty much unbeatable late game - infestors just give a few strong options for midgame. Good players can absolutely deal with infestors and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game phoenix, mothership, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about infestors and not being able to auto win versus zerg on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the ghost is killing everyfucking thing. Snipe's range is so insane and the ghost is now cheap on gas and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and zerg have and can cloak and snipe obs/overseers to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that zergs and protoss have tried everything and the ghost is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the infestor in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because zerg units are so cost inefficient (baring perhaps the BL). Terrans literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of ghosts in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both hive tech options as well as lair tech units (mutas and infestors get destroyed by snipe- they don't even need to use EMP) and every protoss unit with EMP.
Come on blizzard; please focus on stuff that actually needs attention rather than making changes for casual players :/
This is actually the most "Paper is fine and completely balanced, but for fucks sake rock is OBVIOUSLY a HUGE problem -Scissors" post i've seen in a while, kudos on the balance whine so whiney it actually made me giggle! For a laugh, Imma do the protoss version of what u just said except with the HT a few patches ago (with italics marking the only changes i made!).
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the High Templar nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and Terran is still Way too strong early-mid game - High Templar just give a few strong options for Protoss lategame. Good players can absolutely deal with High Templar and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game ghosts, battlecruiser, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about High Templar and not being able to auto win versus Protoss on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the Infestor is killing everyfucking thing. Nerual Parasites range is so insane and the Infestor is Cost effective vs everything and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and terran have and can Burrow and snipe Workers/bases with Infested terrans to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that terran and protoss have tried everything and the Infestor is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the High templar in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because Protoss units are so expensive we need strong AoE to make up for our lack of numbers. Zergs literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of Infestors in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both Stargate options as well as robo tech units (Collosi and immortals get destroyed by Neurals- they don't even need to use fungal) and every terran unit with Fungal Growth.
That was kinda fun :D.
Well, all my stuff was true, all yours wasn't? Name me a game where the protoss played well, didn't make any major mistakes and secured 3 base without huge losses and still lost versus zerg? For every 1 game you give me, I can give you 100 games of protoss rolling a zerg because he didn't have a game winning advantage going into lategame. That's just the way the matchup works, protoss lategame versus zerg is pretty much untouchable, so you have to win in the midgame. And while I think that reflects poor game design, it's the way things are. So why now is it justifiable to nerf the major component to making midgame zerg armies strong versus protoss when protoss have proven to be struggling in every single major tournament as of late.
As to comparing the ghost to the infestor; I don't know what to say about that. You're wrong, I suppose is the long and short of it. Yeah, if you could fungal growth and NP unhindered, I guess the infestor is on par with the ghost, but you can't. Tanks and ghosts outrange infestors by a ton, negating out spellcasters and snipe is equal range to brood lords, so they can be delt with safely and snipe is fantastic versus ultralisks as well. Ghosts can cast every spell cloaked and can snipe mobile detection before they can be targeted so they can remain untargatable. Sure, you can cast IT's burrowed...that does a lot versus a late game army with a ton of splash damage :/ (that is assuming they're bad enough to not have detection anyway, which zerg doesn't have a way of sniping easily...
The difference is I can give you a fuckton of examples of people dealing with infestors, wehre as you can't give me a lot of examples of people dealing with late game ghosts (at least ZvT).
That was kinda fun...
My point was your post (and this new one) are both INCREDIBLY biased towards your race in literally every way possible and any argument you make about literally anything can be thrown back at you with similar biased logic from any one of the other races point of views. I honestly fail to see any part of my post that spoke less truth than any of your opinions... Hell i'll do it again just for kicks...
Well, all my stuff was true, all yours wasn't? Name me a game where the Zerg played well, didn't make any major mistakes and punished a protoss player accordingly if he took 3 bases with equal econ and still lost to a zerg? For every 1 game you give me, I can give you 100 games of zerg rolling a protoss because he had an econ advantage going into lategame and rolled over him with infestor broodlord. That's just the way the matchup works,zerg cripples protoss going into late-game so the protoss cant do anything, so you have to win in the midgame with timing pushes or pray the zerg's a retard. And while I think that reflects poor game design, it's the way things are. So it is perfectly justifiable to nerf the major component to making midgame zerg armies strong versus protoss when protoss have proven to be able to deal with infesotrs fine?
As to comparing the ghost to the infestor; I don't know what to say about that. You're wrong, I suppose is the long and short of it. Yeah, if you could fungal growth and NP unhindered, I guess the infestor is on par with the ghost, but you can with broodlord support. broodlords and infestors outrange templar and stalker by a ton, and infestors fungalling negating out Our ability to blink and get under or away from broodlords and Neural is equal range to Collosi, so they can be delt with safely and neural is fantastic versus HT to feedbacking other HT as well. infestors can Hide behind broodslords, meaning you have to suicide a large amount of units just to have a chance at killing, combined with fungalling and running away or just burrowing make them practically untargatable. Sure, you can try to use your mobility to get around the slow zerg army, the only problem is that our most mobile units are all countered by lings which are even more mobile, and since broodlord infestor is a gas heavy combo, ling complement the combo perfectly allowing the zerg to shutdown any sort of harassment easily if he isnt a retard
The difference is I can give you a fuckton of examples of people dealing with greedy protosses trying to take a third and getting punished ridiculously hard, whilst you cant give me a lot of examples of people dealing with lategame broodlord infestor (atleast pvz)
But seriously, my point isn't that my edit of your posts holds true to what my opinion is, which I think is the part that you're missing, it's that my arguments, that seem so ridiculously stupid and obviously wrong to you, are actually on the same level of biased bullshit as yours are, all I've done is edited a few words to make it reflect the opposite side of the stories view, hence why EVERYONE but other butthurt zerg players will laugh at your post, my edits of your post, and the idea that people can actually be that 1-sided in their approach to sc2.
Nonono I don't think you understand. It's his opinion therefore he is correct.
On September 20 2011 11:19 Shiori wrote: so basically blizzard did nothing to address the ghost, nothing to address pvz in general, and nothing to give protoss harassment options (in fact they nerfed blink, lol). bravo.
Buffed immortal should help against terran in general, infestor had 2 of its spells nerfed which should help PvZ, they gave the warp prism a huge amount of extra health which is pretty much all they can do to help protoss harass without adding new units.
Bravo for making such an informed post though.
immortals are not good units. they lose to stimmed marines, are marginally effective against marauders, but represent such a tech diversion that it's not worth it. the warp prism is utterly worthless because we have nothing economical to drop. the only good change is the neural parasite. fungal growth's damage is irrelevant to protoss. the root is the issue.
Overstatement?
Warp prism+chargelots own zerg tech structures and expos late game.
The fungal nerd has a large effect on PvZ. Zerg will have to be much more tenacious about their timings with dropping fungals in order to kill toss units at pre patch rates.
On September 20 2011 11:19 Shiori wrote: so basically blizzard did nothing to address the ghost, nothing to address pvz in general, and nothing to give protoss harassment options (in fact they nerfed blink, lol). bravo.
On September 20 2011 13:09 Bagi wrote: Yeah well, lets get back on the issue when you have more to offer than hearsay. Not to mention zergs haven't even had time to figure out the best counters to ghosts. The situation is hardly developed enough.
What I have to offer is proof that the ghost is extremely cost efficient versus any lategame zerg army to the point where Terrans don't really lose after they get them out in a decent number as well as zerg not having anything that can actually touch them due to cloaking mechanics and sniping overseers as well as the ghost outranging every zerg unit. What is the composition that can go kill them, really? TLO has been using this since GSL 1 (or 2, his first season either way), it's been quite a while...nope, still no answer.
Similar arguments could be made for many units if we assume perfect control. On paper, infestors can chain fungal protoss deathballs and kill them without taking a single hit,
You know, unless he has those one things....colossus, I think they're called.
Look, even a lot of terrans admit this is too strong. Yeah, if you're stupid with your ghosts you can lose, but that's a bad argument. If your justification is "I could make a mistake and lose them", that's piss poor. You believe that it's a good thing to have a win condition of if the terran doesn't fuck up he wins and if he does the zerg wins? Infestors actually have pretty short range (and are still getting nerfed to shit even when players have demonstrated clear ways to beat them) compared to the insane range of the ghost and a spell that does massive damage to biological units for a low energy cost. Every zerg unit is biological. It's not like I can spread out my stuff to mitigate the damge like you can with fungal, all your stuff just dies as it approaches. Yeah, ghosts need their spells, but they need to be toned down.
On September 20 2011 10:52 WinteRR wrote: How can people say TvZ has serious balance issues when Z has had a sharp incline in winrate % in Korea since the original FG change? Z finally overtook T in Korea for the first time, things look promising on the Z front in TvZ if you ask me - especially considering the latest T nerfs to hellions and barracks (where most zergs were losing games straight up).
Watch the July vs MVP game on metalopolis (or Thorzain versus Catz or any demuslim game versus zerg). That's why people are saying there's a problem with TvZ. The July MVP game isn't the best example as july made some questionable decisions, but once terran has a sufficient amount of tank/ghost you can't touch them.
I did watch that game, and that is what EVERYONE says and it's a completely wrong context. It's basically the same as "Oh you should harass zerg or you lose" - you can't let Terrans have more than 2 bases than you like MVP did. He was in the most comfortable position and he could afford to get a ridiculous amount of ghosts without dying.
On September 20 2011 13:09 Bagi wrote: Yeah well, lets get back on the issue when you have more to offer than hearsay. Not to mention zergs haven't even had time to figure out the best counters to ghosts. The situation is hardly developed enough.
What I have to offer is proof that the ghost is extremely cost efficient versus any lategame zerg army to the point where Terrans don't really lose after they get them out in a decent number as well as zerg not having anything that can actually touch them due to cloaking mechanics and sniping overseers as well as the ghost outranging every zerg unit. What is the composition that can go kill them, really? TLO has been using this since GSL 1 (or 2, his first season either way), it's been quite a while...nope, still no answer.
Similar arguments could be made for many units if we assume perfect control. On paper, infestors can chain fungal protoss deathballs and kill them without taking a single hit,
You know, unless he has those one things....colossus, I think they're called.
Look, even a lot of terrans admit this is too strong. Yeah, if you're stupid with your ghosts you can lose, but that's a bad argument. If your justification is "I could make a mistake and lose them", that's piss poor. You believe that it's a good thing to have a win condition of if the terran doesn't fuck up he wins and if he does the zerg wins? Infestors actually have pretty short range (and are still getting nerfed to shit even when players have demonstrated clear ways to beat them) compared to the insane range of the ghost and a spell that does massive damage to biological units for a low energy cost. Every zerg unit is biological. It's not like I can spread out my stuff to mitigate the damge like you can with fungal, all your stuff just dies as it approaches. Yeah, ghosts need their spells, but they need to be toned down.
Fungal outranges colossi as long as you abuse the AOE, same with feedback.
Huge damage? You need 13 snipes to kill an ultralisk. Imagine if he has 5 ultras, thats ONLY 30 supply, you have to snipe AKA manually click 65 times. After that you have to deal with the other 100 supply. Ghosts do NOT counter everything.
But anyway, reading your post history in this thread alone makes me think that reasoning with you any further would be a waste of time. So lets just agree to disagree.
immortals get mollested by stimmed bio balls.. nothing has changed except early game. fucking joke patch I am quitting over blizzards incompetence. Why have to wait for HOTS for a Terran fix. I didn't good money to play some unpolished imba piece of shit game. Bye all
On September 20 2011 14:14 PrObeLife wrote: immortals get mollested by stimmed bio balls.. nothing has changed except early game. fucking joke patch I am quitting over blizzards incompetence. Why have to wait for HOTS for a Terran fix. I didn't good money to play some unpolished imba piece of shit game. Bye all
On September 20 2011 14:14 PrObeLife wrote: immortals get mollested by stimmed bio balls.. nothing has changed except early game. fucking joke patch I am quitting over blizzards incompetence. Why have to wait for HOTS for a Terran fix. I didn't good money to play some unpolished imba piece of shit game. Bye all
On September 20 2011 10:10 PrObeLife wrote: Fairly useless patch as far as TVP is concerned. Slight relief from 1-1-1
On September 20 2011 14:14 PrObeLife wrote: immortals get mollested by stimmed bio balls.. nothing has changed except early game. fucking joke patch I am quitting over blizzards incompetence. Why have to wait for HOTS for a Terran fix. I didn't good money to play some unpolished imba piece of shit game. Bye all
I wonder what happened during those 4 hours that upset him so.
Ok, everybody on the west coast, you have between 2 and 6 hours left to abuse neural parasite's extremely game-breaking-over-powered range of 9. As well as the enormously balance--busting fungal damage. Terrans, you have just as much time to QQ about your first production building now taking the same amount of time as everybody else's to build. Protoss, use your remaining time to mothership lag players out of the game and abuse the extremely-un-counterable 30s window for blink, during which there are no infestors, ghosts, speedlings, or marauders to speak of to stop this extremely over-powered timing push.
Those are the things I think shouldn't have been changed, except the rax build time
immortals get mollested by stimmed bio balls.. nothing has changed except early game. fucking joke patch I am quitting over blizzards incompetence. Why have to wait for HOTS for a Terran fix. I didn't good money to play some unpolished imba piece of shit game. Bye all
Lady of Rage: "Kickin' up dust and I don't give a goddamn, cuz I'm that starcraft QQ'er, pleading guilty..." (May have modified in starcraft QQ'er in the place of "lyrical murderer", but hey...
The Immortal buff isn't a huge deal, but I'll take what I can get. Nice to see the patch is hitting tomorrow (in the US) and it isn't getting dragged out another 2 weeks or more.
On September 20 2011 13:09 Bagi wrote: Yeah well, lets get back on the issue when you have more to offer than hearsay. Not to mention zergs haven't even had time to figure out the best counters to ghosts. The situation is hardly developed enough.
What I have to offer is proof that the ghost is extremely cost efficient versus any lategame zerg army to the point where Terrans don't really lose after they get them out in a decent number as well as zerg not having anything that can actually touch them due to cloaking mechanics and sniping overseers as well as the ghost outranging every zerg unit. What is the composition that can go kill them, really? TLO has been using this since GSL 1 (or 2, his first season either way), it's been quite a while...nope, still no answer.
Similar arguments could be made for many units if we assume perfect control. On paper, infestors can chain fungal protoss deathballs and kill them without taking a single hit,
You know, unless he has those one things....colossus, I think they're called.
Look, even a lot of terrans admit this is too strong. Yeah, if you're stupid with your ghosts you can lose, but that's a bad argument. If your justification is "I could make a mistake and lose them", that's piss poor. You believe that it's a good thing to have a win condition of if the terran doesn't fuck up he wins and if he does the zerg wins? Infestors actually have pretty short range (and are still getting nerfed to shit even when players have demonstrated clear ways to beat them) compared to the insane range of the ghost and a spell that does massive damage to biological units for a low energy cost. Every zerg unit is biological. It's not like I can spread out my stuff to mitigate the damge like you can with fungal, all your stuff just dies as it approaches. Yeah, ghosts need their spells, but they need to be toned down.
Fungal outranges colossi as long as you abuse the AOE, same with feedback.
Huge damage? You need 13 snipes to kill an ultralisk. Imagine if he has 5 ultras, thats ONLY 30 supply, you have to snipe AKA manually click 65 times. After that you have to deal with the other 100 supply. Ghosts do NOT counter everything.
But anyway, reading your post history in this thread alone makes me think that reasoning with you any further would be a waste of time. So lets just agree to disagree.
you don't just mess up ultras, you goes broodlord then force vikings and then go ultra
If you go ultra first, they don't do all that well against all the well positioned siege tanks. and if you are around diamond level, it is quite common to see 5 ultras die to snipes after 6 seconds. the other 100 supply is nothing because without tier 3, it is really hard to break a defensive terran.
and like someone said before, ghost is a support unit, the real damage dealer to the ground is still siege tanks, a weakened ultra is as bad as having 200 lings instead
On September 20 2011 13:28 GhoSt[shield] wrote: Cool to see the patch is going live and hopefully there is some more feedback on the changes and the cumulative effects on current strategy.
On September 20 2011 08:28 LagT_T wrote: 50 gas for a detector? Preposterous!
Spore crawlers are 75 minerals, and 0 gas.
Spore crawlers actual cost goes much higher and deeper than just 75 minerals and 0 gas. Resources used: 2 larva 2 drones (100 minerals) 75 minerals for the evo chamber 75 minerals for the spore.
So the real cost of spore crawler detection for zerg is actually 2 larva and 250 minerals, not 75.
As a graduate accountant, don't become an accountant. A Spore Crawler doesn't cost 2 larva and 250 minerals, this logic is simply mind numbingly bad if you truly believe it.
I suppose as Protoss, a Colossus costs:
Pylon 100m Gateway 150m Core 150m Facility 200m 100g Bay 200m 200g Colossus 300m 200g
On September 20 2011 15:10 ZorBa.G wrote: I don't mind the nerf for the hellions... BUT WTF is with the increase in Rax build time? What is this honestly meant to achieve?!?!?!?!
On September 20 2011 15:10 ZorBa.G wrote: I don't mind the nerf for the hellions... BUT WTF is with the increase in Rax build time? What is this honestly meant to achieve?!?!?!?!
Delays 11/11 rax, all tech and brings the barracks build time in line with both the gateway and the spawning pool?
On September 20 2011 15:10 ZorBa.G wrote: I don't mind the nerf for the hellions... BUT WTF is with the increase in Rax build time? What is this honestly meant to achieve?!?!?!?!
Delays 11/11 rax, all tech and brings the barracks build time in line with both the gateway and the spawning pool?
+ a general nerf to the entire terran race should help against the korean terran-domination
On September 20 2011 15:10 ZorBa.G wrote: I don't mind the nerf for the hellions... BUT WTF is with the increase in Rax build time? What is this honestly meant to achieve?!?!?!?!
Delays 11/11 rax, all tech and brings the barracks build time in line with both the gateway and the spawning pool?
And leaves Terran open for more Zerg cheese? Terran needs to be able to put early pressure on Zerg, otherwise Zerg just gets mutas around 10 - 13 minutes and oh welll G-_-G.
Are you watching the IGN Proleague stream it's just rediculous!?!?!?!
As for protoss, it's not like it was impossible for protoss to defend terran early pressure.
I agree with the BF hellion nerf, but the rax is just pathetic.
Anyways, how will this change Terran build orders now?
On September 20 2011 14:12 g. wrote: so wait, i think ive missed something but what happened to the whole thing about you cant NP massive units?
blizz noticed that change literally made people stop using neural completely as in, noone researched neural parasite for any reason whatsoever, so blizz said "k guys, we will be turning the PTR off now, but we just wanted to tell you that we decided that neural can target massive units, but the range will be nerfed to 7"
edit:
And leaves Terran open for more Zerg cheese? Terran needs to be able to put early pressure on Zerg, otherwise Zerg just gets mutas around 10 - 13 minutes and oh welll G-_-G.
Are you watching the IGN Proleague stream it's just rediculous!?!?!?!
As for protoss, it's not like it was impossible for protoss to defend terran early pressure.
I agree with the BF hellion nerf, but the rax is just pathetic.
Anyways, how will this change Terran build orders now?
The usual was;
10 = Depot 12 = Rax 13 = Refinery 15 = OC
How will this change?
zerg cheese? what zerg cheese? have I missed something?
6pool: ya right, wall-in and you instantly win. baneling bust: ya right, a bunker or two and the terran says "trolollollololol" 7 roach rush: might be slightly more difficult to hold, but have the 7roach rush ever had a positive win%? muta rush: still loses to early pressure, no change there.
or did you mean this?
standard play, either ling/infestor or ling/bling/muta: will be more powerful vs terran than before.
so please do tell, what zerg cheeses are you complaining about?
So infestor used to do 45 to armored? and now it does 40? What was with the +% before anyways? Why didn't they just say the number?
Overall I think these are all good changes. Nothing really looks like a terrible change except maybe the warp prism getting so much shields, that may be too strong.
On September 20 2011 15:10 ZorBa.G wrote: I don't mind the nerf for the hellions... BUT WTF is with the increase in Rax build time? What is this honestly meant to achieve?!?!?!?!
Delays 11/11 rax, all tech and brings the barracks build time in line with both the gateway and the spawning pool?
And leaves Terran open for more Zerg cheese? Terran needs to be able to put early pressure on Zerg, otherwise Zerg just gets mutas around 10 - 13 minutes and oh welll G-_-G.
Are you watching the IGN Proleague stream it's just rediculous!?!?!?!
As for protoss, it's not like it was impossible for protoss to defend terran early pressure.
I agree with the BF hellion nerf, but the rax is just pathetic.
Anyways, how will this change Terran build orders now?
The usual was;
10 = Depot 12 = Rax 13 = Refinery 15 = OC
How will this change?
Are you watching GSL (hint, much higher level play than IPL)? It's just ridiculous. 20 (TWENTY) out of the best 32 players in the world are terran.
I find it really hard to believe that there is even one complaint about any terran nerf from any terran player in this thread, given the pure dominance of terran in the last couple of months.
I will predict that with the new patch many Zergs will have problems with 1 base Immortal All-ins! I didn't see any Protoss player do this up until now, but I tried it myself on ladder against Zerg players and it's freakin strong!
Won't use neural parasite against Protoss anymore.
BUT! The cheaper overseer will help a TON with scouting, so I don't really care about a spell that you only got off because the Protoss failed to snipe infestors out anyway. And my Ultralisk builds will be even stronger now!
On September 20 2011 14:12 g. wrote: so wait, i think ive missed something but what happened to the whole thing about you cant NP massive units?
standard play, either ling/infestor or ling/bling/muta: will be more powerful vs terran than before.
so please do tell, what zerg cheeses are you complaining about?
yeah, now zerg just spams out units like a bitch to eventually A move whilst Terran needs to micro their ass off to even stand a chance. Anyone who says mutas takes micro imo is a cop out.
On September 20 2011 15:33 SpoR wrote: So infestor used to do 45 to armored? and now it does 40? What was with the +% before anyways? Why didn't they just say the number?
Overall I think these are all good changes. Nothing really looks like a terrible change except maybe the warp prism getting so much shields, that may be too strong.
warp prisms need surivability, this coming from a dedicated zerg player. a friend told me he once mistakenly flew a warp prism over a marine, the (singular) marine got it down to 40 health.
as for the +% it was because of this:
36 damage +30% vs armoured = 46.8 damage vs armoured 40 damage vs armoured = 30 damage +33.3333% vs armoured
sc2 counts fractional damage, so the 46.8 counts as 46.8, not as 46 or 47, thus to give accurate information while still keeping the numbers pretty in-game, you say 36+30% instead of 46.8 and 30+10 instead of +33.333%
On September 20 2011 14:12 g. wrote: so wait, i think ive missed something but what happened to the whole thing about you cant NP massive units?
standard play, either ling/infestor or ling/bling/muta: will be more powerful vs terran than before.
so please do tell, what zerg cheeses are you complaining about?
yeah, now zerg just spams out units like a bitch to eventually A move whilst Terran needs to micro their ass off to even stand a chance. Anyone who says mutas takes micro imo is a cop out.
Thinking a race switch to Protoss sounds good.
IMO at a higher level play, terran units "can" be dominant considering a lot of micro is in play. I think we'll see heaps of average/lower league players just play protoss now.
Terran IMO just = Carpal Tunnel now. I think it's more healthier now to play Protoss.
EDIT: Whoops, didn't mean to quote myslef...meant to edit soz :s
Godammit, fuck you blizzard. You just ruined a spell on the infestor without fixing the damn unit.
I loved that spell too, it was one of the funner things in SC2 and you had to fuck it up. I'm not going to pretend to be happy or content here cause frankly im pissed at this decision. The infestor is still OP and will still be bitched about because fungal wasn't nerfed enough. Meanwhile, NP will see niche usage against archons if you decide to play severe head trauma victims who fail to notice teh giant fucking slug brain fucking a unit from a few feet away.
Whats the fucking point? Its just a waste of energy and your infestor. Seriously, just spend that energy on more fungals, its almost 100% superior in every way now.
On September 20 2011 14:12 g. wrote: so wait, i think ive missed something but what happened to the whole thing about you cant NP massive units?
standard play, either ling/infestor or ling/bling/muta: will be more powerful vs terran than before.
so please do tell, what zerg cheeses are you complaining about?
yeah, now zerg just spams out units like a bitch to eventually A move whilst Terran needs to micro their ass off to even stand a chance. Anyone who says mutas takes micro imo is a cop out.
Thinking a race switch to Protoss sounds good.
IMO at a higher level play, terran units "can" be dominant considering a lot of micro is in play. I think we'll see heaps of average/lower league players just play protoss now.
Terran IMO just = Carpal Tunnel now. I think it's more healthier now to play Protoss.
EDIT: Whoops, didn't mean to quote myslef...meant to edit soz :s
sorry but toss is too dependent on micro and ffs to not die to the relatively easier "a move" (other than kiting) of the other races. Don't recommend to switch to toss for average/low league players.
[QUOTE]On September 20 2011 16:10 izgodlee wrote: [QUOTE]On September 20 2011 15:50 ZorBa.G wrote: [QUOTE]On September 20 2011 15:47 ZorBa.G wrote: [QUOTE]On September 20 2011 15:28 Roblin wrote: [QUOTE]On September 20 2011 14:12 g. wrote: [QUOTE] sorry but toss is too dependent on micro and ffs to not die to the relatively easier "a move" (other than kiting) of the other races. Don't recommend to switch to toss for average/low league players.[/QUOTE]
yeah coz Force Fields and keeping your Collossi at the back of your army is so much harder then Marine Splits and Stutterstepping.
New score screens. I'm loving how it shows leagues now. Saves a lot of hassle.
Woah, really nice UI additions from Blizzard. Though some of their balance decisions are questionable, they've really been doing a good job steadily making their B.net UI better with these subtle but nice changes, though they still need some pretty major changes to other aspects of B.net despite these nice additions.
New score screens. I'm loving how it shows leagues now. Saves a lot of hassle.
Woah, really nice UI additions from Blizzard. Though some of their balance decisions are questionable, they've really been doing a good job steadily making their B.net UI better with these subtle but nice changes, though they still need some pretty major changes to other aspects of B.net despite these nice additions.
Nice! GUI and balance changes look good to me. Will need to play with 1.4 for a couple weeks before making a REAL opinion on it
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
You mean TvT has most likely become an unplayable joke.......
Why is that? Because sneaking 3 Helions into a base won't insta win the game?
good players learn to minimize the chance of that happening, and other from that mech vs mech takes more skill and is less dependant on chance then huge marine balls running around and base trading 1/3 of the games at least
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
You mean TvT has most likely become an unplayable joke.......
Care to elaborate on that? I'm no TvT fanatic but I would think that this would fix the ridiculously stupid (imo) hellion drops that have basically 2 outcomes:
Win the game/SEVERELY cripple opponent OR Lose 400 Minerals (and maybe 100/100 of a medivac)
Can't see why this wasn't a good change but I'm interested to see your input o.o
On September 20 2011 08:27 GGzerG wrote: Well it is official, time to switch to Protoss. I agree with the overseer , ultralisk and fungal change, but the neural parasite change is really going to make late game really hard for zerg I think...Like when the map gets cut in half... T_T
I don't get it, why play protoss? I seriously doubt they will be %100 fixed with 3 buffs and 1 nerf. Destiny and people like you man... no faith in blizzard you just think zerg is now shit when it's definitely not. Most of the buffs are only helping PvP, immortal buff is clearly for PvP and the blink nerf is as well. The mothership buff/nerf obviously doesn't matter and the warp prism buff is decent.
If anything, with the rax build time increase you should be happy because now we can 15 hatch with more breathing room and I'm going to be burrowing banelings EVERYWHERE forcing lazy terrans to get a raven.
The warp prism buff is decent? Just wait and see how many games will be one against zerg only because the toss made a warp prism that is now basically invincible.
Have to say the ultra change is kinda awesome tbh. Comes out so much quicker than before.
ofc i only used ultras in 2(ZvZ and ZvT) games and I basically had the game won long before my ultras were out.
FG change about the fungal not overriding each other(this is true right? maybe I just read it wrong or something) made me use fungal more cautiously than before.
Overseer buff looks great .
Overall I'd say this patch is Okay for Zergs. But neural took a huge nerf , didn't even consider researching it in all of my games.
Me and my friend have been getting some unplayable lag after the patch in CN server. Guess its just a patch day standard :D. Some really nice UI from Blizzard. Happy laddering :D
On September 20 2011 16:46 n0ise wrote: why exactly did they bother with a month of PTR if it's obvious they always go through with the shit changes they dreamed a while ago
As you can see the first infestor nerf hasn't gone trough. So PTR surved its purpose...
At least in TvT my marines won't get roasted by blue flames in 2 shots before combat shield. But Bio play still will be difficult though, if the mech terran can have solid defense and effective tank placement. However immortal range increase hurts a lot now, should be interesting what strategies protoss can conjure up with it.
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
You mean TvT has most likely become an unplayable joke.......
Care to elaborate on that? I'm no TvT fanatic but I would think that this would fix the ridiculously stupid (imo) hellion drops that have basically 2 outcomes:
Win the game/SEVERELY cripple opponent OR Lose 400 Minerals (and maybe 100/100 of a medivac)
Can't see why this wasn't a good change but I'm interested to see your input o.o
Pretty likely its gonna turn TvT into a bio matchup again, if it does I will quit TvT asaply.
Hellions were not overpowered TvT at all, making non-combat shield marines take 3 hits before they die is a joke =[ If it stays mech I dont care so much about the change but Im not sure it will.
On September 20 2011 16:46 n0ise wrote: why exactly did they bother with a month of PTR if it's obvious they always go through with the shit changes they dreamed a while ago
As you can see the first infestor nerf hasn't gone trough. So PTR surved its purpose...
The infestor nerf has made neural pretty useless, neural already had barely any use, unless you were going against 10 colo with no stalkers, or 10 thors with no marauders or ghosts, now they just made it that much more useless... I wish they would have just changed fungal to snare instead, watching 30 marines die to 2 fungals and just go "Damn...well that sucks I guess I have to split better in the future" is ridiculous.
If you hadn't noticed I'm defending n0ise, why would you have such dramatic changes on a ptr if you are just going to ignore the community anyway?
On September 20 2011 14:14 PrObeLife wrote: immortals get mollested by stimmed bio balls.. nothing has changed except early game. fucking joke patch I am quitting over blizzards incompetence. Why have to wait for HOTS for a Terran fix. I didn't good money to play some unpolished imba piece of shit game. Bye all
User was banned for this post.
see ya, have fun playing brood war ladder.
Anyways a few thoughts on the patch notes.
I am really happy to see Warp Prism's Buffed, when I played Brood War and Terrans would make 3 drop ships and turtle vs. me I had the mentality of fuck it Im making 4 shuttles and dropping Terran.
Good to see the game evolving in a good way.
- Don't like the Barracks build time increase. I am playing Terran and don't find 10/10 or 11/11 rax builds that strong. Zerg player's are greedy players in general IMO.
all in all i've played the PTR quite a bit and Hellions are still going to be strong units. 4 hellion drops are still going to own as long as you line up and micro correctly.
Good Job Blizzard, now if only Fungal Growth didn't stop units dead in its tracks I would be happy.. IMO Fungal should slow units by 60% or something so you actually can micro out of it.
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
You mean TvT has most likely become an unplayable joke.......
Care to elaborate on that? I'm no TvT fanatic but I would think that this would fix the ridiculously stupid (imo) hellion drops that have basically 2 outcomes:
Win the game/SEVERELY cripple opponent OR Lose 400 Minerals (and maybe 100/100 of a medivac)
Can't see why this wasn't a good change but I'm interested to see your input o.o
Pretty likely its gonna turn TvT into a bio matchup again, if it does I will quit TvT asaply.
Hellions were not overpowered TvT at all, making non-combat shield marines take 3 hits before they die is a joke =[ If it stays mech I dont care so much about the change but Im not sure it will.
Plenty of other pro terrans disagree with you though, Merz, Demuslim, and Kawaiirice to name a few. Outplaying your opponent for the majority of the game and then losing it because you didn't notice the drop in your main is ridiculous..sometimes you could even see them being dropped at the edge of your base but hellions are too fast and were too powerful for pulling scvs to make a difference.
I respect your opinion, but in my opinion watching marine tank vs marine tank is way more fun than this mass hellion/air wars crap...
Are you shitting me???? Fuck, now I can't connect to NA until tomorrow since my SEA has patched. ... I guess one more day of SEA play for me. (I didn't intend to make that rhyme.)
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
You mean TvT has most likely become an unplayable joke.......
Care to elaborate on that? I'm no TvT fanatic but I would think that this would fix the ridiculously stupid (imo) hellion drops that have basically 2 outcomes:
Win the game/SEVERELY cripple opponent OR Lose 400 Minerals (and maybe 100/100 of a medivac)
Can't see why this wasn't a good change but I'm interested to see your input o.o
Pretty likely its gonna turn TvT into a bio matchup again, if it does I will quit TvT asaply.
Hellions were not overpowered TvT at all, making non-combat shield marines take 3 hits before they die is a joke =[ If it stays mech I dont care so much about the change but Im not sure it will.
I was thinking it was going to turn into more tank/marine, but I'm certainly no good at this game. I think certain maps will favor bio heavily against mech, where mech or tank marine will be viable on others. Only time will tell I guess
Going to be nice to see some big changes, especially the vision up the ramp stuff I think that's going to make early game much better on ladder for lowly scrubs like myself. Wonder how the big tournaments and stuff will change over all this (GSL etc.).
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
You mean TvT has most likely become an unplayable joke.......
Care to elaborate on that? I'm no TvT fanatic but I would think that this would fix the ridiculously stupid (imo) hellion drops that have basically 2 outcomes:
Win the game/SEVERELY cripple opponent OR Lose 400 Minerals (and maybe 100/100 of a medivac)
Can't see why this wasn't a good change but I'm interested to see your input o.o
Pretty likely its gonna turn TvT into a bio matchup again, if it does I will quit TvT asaply.
Hellions were not overpowered TvT at all, making non-combat shield marines take 3 hits before they die is a joke =[ If it stays mech I dont care so much about the change but Im not sure it will.
I know it's not strictly on topic, but if you "quit TvT" what would you play vT? Are you allowed to pick in GSL?
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
You mean TvT has most likely become an unplayable joke.......
Care to elaborate on that? I'm no TvT fanatic but I would think that this would fix the ridiculously stupid (imo) hellion drops that have basically 2 outcomes:
Win the game/SEVERELY cripple opponent OR Lose 400 Minerals (and maybe 100/100 of a medivac)
Can't see why this wasn't a good change but I'm interested to see your input o.o
Pretty likely its gonna turn TvT into a bio matchup again, if it does I will quit TvT asaply.
Hellions were not overpowered TvT at all, making non-combat shield marines take 3 hits before they die is a joke =[ If it stays mech I dont care so much about the change but Im not sure it will.
doesn't it affect openings only? TvT midgame mech looked really strong let alone :O
Yea hellions might not do that much of damage to mineral lines anymore... but HELLO UNOUTRUNABLE SEEKER MISSILES! (and millions of auto turrets that lasts the whole game after to clean the rest up ).
On September 20 2011 08:28 LagT_T wrote: 50 gas for a detector? Preposterous!
Terran has it for 75 minerals. Seems like a better deal! But wait the other one moves!!! wait but the other one shoots air!! wait the other one contaminates and has shorter creation length!! yeah but the other only needs engi bay (t1.5) while the other needs t2!!!!
Almost as if they are different races and you can't uni-laterally compare stuff with any worth-while conclusion.
Spore crawlers are 75 minerals, turrets are 100. But yes, you cant compare stuff like that 1:1.
@Topic: I like the patch a lot. I think every single change is justified and is going to improve the overall balance, even though someone might argue that pvt needs more than subtle adjustments. But i guess all major changes will happen with hots.
happy with this patch will help towards the final goals of balancing this game out (there is no race better in every situation then other races) thought id throw that in there foor people that are trying to m me ))
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
You mean TvT has most likely become an unplayable joke.......
Care to elaborate on that? I'm no TvT fanatic but I would think that this would fix the ridiculously stupid (imo) hellion drops that have basically 2 outcomes:
Win the game/SEVERELY cripple opponent OR Lose 400 Minerals (and maybe 100/100 of a medivac)
Can't see why this wasn't a good change but I'm interested to see your input o.o
Pretty likely its gonna turn TvT into a bio matchup again, if it does I will quit TvT asaply.
Hellions were not overpowered TvT at all, making non-combat shield marines take 3 hits before they die is a joke =[ If it stays mech I dont care so much about the change but Im not sure it will.
Plenty of other pro terrans disagree with you though, Merz, Demuslim, and Kawaiirice to name a few. Outplaying your opponent for the majority of the game and then losing it because you didn't notice the drop in your main is ridiculous..sometimes you could even see them being dropped at the edge of your base but hellions are too fast and were too powerful for pulling scvs to make a difference.
I respect your opinion, but in my opinion watching marine tank vs marine tank is way more fun than this mass hellion/air wars crap...
They are all bio whores. Bio is even gayer anyway, 'oh no I didn't see the 5 dropships coming for my main, I guess I will have to base race or write GG now'.
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
You mean TvT has most likely become an unplayable joke.......
Care to elaborate on that? I'm no TvT fanatic but I would think that this would fix the ridiculously stupid (imo) hellion drops that have basically 2 outcomes:
Win the game/SEVERELY cripple opponent OR Lose 400 Minerals (and maybe 100/100 of a medivac)
Can't see why this wasn't a good change but I'm interested to see your input o.o
Pretty likely its gonna turn TvT into a bio matchup again, if it does I will quit TvT asaply.
Hellions were not overpowered TvT at all, making non-combat shield marines take 3 hits before they die is a joke =[ If it stays mech I dont care so much about the change but Im not sure it will.
I was thinking it was going to turn into more tank/marine, but I'm certainly no good at this game. I think certain maps will favor bio heavily against mech, where mech or tank marine will be viable on others. Only time will tell I guess
Hellion drops are still going to do horrible horrible damage to eco. You think a raider unit isn't going to fulfill a role just because a damage number gets knocked down?
The number doesn't mean anything when you have more than 6 Hellions
On September 20 2011 08:28 LagT_T wrote: 50 gas for a detector? Preposterous!
Terran has it for 75 minerals. Seems like a better deal! But wait the other one moves!!! wait but the other one shoots air!! wait the other one contaminates and has shorter creation length!! yeah but the other only needs engi bay (t1.5) while the other needs t2!!!!
Almost as if they are different races and you can't uni-laterally compare stuff with any worth-while conclusion.
Spore crawlers are 75 minerals, turrets are 100. But yes, you cant compare stuff like that 1:1.
@Topic: I like the patch a lot. I think every single change is justified and is going to improve the overall balance, even though someone might argue that pvt needs more than subtle adjustments. But i guess all major changes will happen with hots.
On September 20 2011 18:13 graNite wrote: Don't forget you have to build a drone for a spore crawler, so it costs 125.
You also have to factor that while the scv is building it won't mine, and that the drone could have mined until the end of the game if it had not been turned into a spore crawler and that while the scv is away building it won't get sniped by muta harass in the mineral line thus will mine later and...
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
You mean TvT has most likely become an unplayable joke.......
Care to elaborate on that? I'm no TvT fanatic but I would think that this would fix the ridiculously stupid (imo) hellion drops that have basically 2 outcomes:
Win the game/SEVERELY cripple opponent OR Lose 400 Minerals (and maybe 100/100 of a medivac)
Can't see why this wasn't a good change but I'm interested to see your input o.o
Pretty likely its gonna turn TvT into a bio matchup again, if it does I will quit TvT asaply.
Hellions were not overpowered TvT at all, making non-combat shield marines take 3 hits before they die is a joke =[ If it stays mech I dont care so much about the change but Im not sure it will.
Plenty of other pro terrans disagree with you though, Merz, Demuslim, and Kawaiirice to name a few. Outplaying your opponent for the majority of the game and then losing it because you didn't notice the drop in your main is ridiculous..sometimes you could even see them being dropped at the edge of your base but hellions are too fast and were too powerful for pulling scvs to make a difference.
I respect your opinion, but in my opinion watching marine tank vs marine tank is way more fun than this mass hellion/air wars crap...
They are all bio whores. Bio is even gayer anyway, 'oh no I didn't see the 5 dropships coming for my main, I guess I will have to base race or write GG now'.
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
You mean TvT has most likely become an unplayable joke.......
Care to elaborate on that? I'm no TvT fanatic but I would think that this would fix the ridiculously stupid (imo) hellion drops that have basically 2 outcomes:
Win the game/SEVERELY cripple opponent OR Lose 400 Minerals (and maybe 100/100 of a medivac)
Can't see why this wasn't a good change but I'm interested to see your input o.o
Pretty likely its gonna turn TvT into a bio matchup again, if it does I will quit TvT asaply.
Hellions were not overpowered TvT at all, making non-combat shield marines take 3 hits before they die is a joke =[ If it stays mech I dont care so much about the change but Im not sure it will.
I was thinking it was going to turn into more tank/marine, but I'm certainly no good at this game. I think certain maps will favor bio heavily against mech, where mech or tank marine will be viable on others. Only time will tell I guess
Marine-tank is bio to me =[
i agree that pure bio is not fun whatsoever, marine+tank is decent but mech is the most fun. i still think mech will prevail over bio dont you? its not like mass marine will beat mech and we've seen pure MMM can beat mech (ie. polt). mass tank will still rape bio i hope. mech ftw!
edit: it was pretty hard to beat good mech player with pure MMM and with marine+tank it was almost impossible to beat pure mech so it's gonna be bit "easier"
Neural parasite will not even get researched now, fungal is just flat out better. Initially changing NP to have no effect on massive units just shows how clueless bliz is.. sigh.
On September 20 2011 18:13 graNite wrote: Don't forget you have to build a drone for a spore crawler, so it costs 125.
You also have to factor that while the scv is building it won't mine, and that the drone could have mined until the end of the game if it had not been turned into a spore crawler and that while the scv is away building it won't get sniped by muta harass in the mineral line thus will mine later and...
You get the picture.
thats a moot point simply because the cost of the drone for Zerg buildings is so damn simple and very clearly a direct cost of the building that it would be ignorant not to factor it into the equation.
i really dont know why you are trying to keep drone cost out of the equation because it just makes it seem like youre biased against Zerg
When you reach bigger Helion numbers this change doesn't matter that much against Marines if its 2 or 3 shots at least from my playing experience on the PTR. It makes Bio/Tank-Marine stronger again but Mech is still viable just not as strong as before , which is fine because it was too good in my opinion.
Rushing to Blueflame now is not as strong anymore but it's still good in later situations. Pumping out reactored Helions early on and getting Blue flame later for example could for example work pretty well . But i gotta see it on live serves .
My friend has some sick prism builds that can expand and I have a hard enough time to dealing with (read: killing) it as it is.
Really hope they take it out in the next patch; honestly playing with him (EU master), it makes me think that Protoss are just too scared to actually have refined control over one unit.
On September 20 2011 19:13 Gamegene wrote: Uggggggh. Warp prism!
My friend has some sick prism builds that can expand and I have a hard enough time to dealing with (read: killing) it as it is.
Really hope they take it out in the next patch; honestly playing with him (EU master), it makes me think that Protoss are just too scared to actually have refined control over one unit.
The lessened BFH damage will make medivacs exponentially better for biomech in TvT, so the game will likely turn into biomech vs full mech with a shaky balance, rather than mech autowinning as it currently is.
the new warp prism buff is to balance the cost/reward of protoss drops. protoss drops deal little damage and are very expensive, so by making warp prism stronger, protoss drops becomes "low cost/low reward" instead of "high cost/low reward"
everything put together I'm loving this patch. I have one gripe with the NP range decrease but you give and take. If it's awful it might get patched in the future so it's all good!
On September 20 2011 20:03 rpgalon wrote: the new warp prism buff is to balance the cost/reward of protoss drops. protoss drops deal little damage and are very expensive, so by making warp prism stronger, protoss drops becomes "low cost/low reward" instead of "high cost/low reward"
PS: No ghost change Oo!?!!? Mother Mercy
Warp prisms carrying HT will have to become standard to deal with the ghost micro situations, and it will be fine because of how robust they are now.
On September 20 2011 20:05 FarbrorAbavna wrote: everything put together I'm loving this patch. I have one gripe with the NP range decrease but you give and take. If it's awful it might get patched in the future so it's all good!
They should reinstate being able to NP underground. It would actually make a lot of sense..and would introduce some more detection scenarios you used to see with lurkers.
I was wondering why bnet was down, guess we are getting patched.
Looking through the notes, this will be great for me. It downgrades stuff I don't like to use or that is used against me and upgrades stuff I use or doesn't get used against me. Maybe I'll finally get masters.
edit: Well I am kind of worried about thors a bit. But I'll muddle through it.
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
You mean TvT has most likely become an unplayable joke.......
Care to elaborate on that? I'm no TvT fanatic but I would think that this would fix the ridiculously stupid (imo) hellion drops that have basically 2 outcomes:
Win the game/SEVERELY cripple opponent OR Lose 400 Minerals (and maybe 100/100 of a medivac)
Can't see why this wasn't a good change but I'm interested to see your input o.o
Pretty likely its gonna turn TvT into a bio matchup again, if it does I will quit TvT asaply.
Hellions were not overpowered TvT at all, making non-combat shield marines take 3 hits before they die is a joke =[ If it stays mech I dont care so much about the change but Im not sure it will.
Plenty of other pro terrans disagree with you though, Merz, Demuslim, and Kawaiirice to name a few. Outplaying your opponent for the majority of the game and then losing it because you didn't notice the drop in your main is ridiculous..sometimes you could even see them being dropped at the edge of your base but hellions are too fast and were too powerful for pulling scvs to make a difference.
I respect your opinion, but in my opinion watching marine tank vs marine tank is way more fun than this mass hellion/air wars crap...
They are all bio whores. Bio is even gayer anyway, 'oh no I didn't see the 5 dropships coming for my main, I guess I will have to base race or write GG now'.
Fucking stupid.
On September 20 2011 17:31 jmbthirteen wrote:
On September 20 2011 17:15 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On September 20 2011 16:51 xAPOCALYPSEx wrote:
On September 20 2011 16:27 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
You mean TvT has most likely become an unplayable joke.......
Care to elaborate on that? I'm no TvT fanatic but I would think that this would fix the ridiculously stupid (imo) hellion drops that have basically 2 outcomes:
Win the game/SEVERELY cripple opponent OR Lose 400 Minerals (and maybe 100/100 of a medivac)
Can't see why this wasn't a good change but I'm interested to see your input o.o
Pretty likely its gonna turn TvT into a bio matchup again, if it does I will quit TvT asaply.
Hellions were not overpowered TvT at all, making non-combat shield marines take 3 hits before they die is a joke =[ If it stays mech I dont care so much about the change but Im not sure it will.
I was thinking it was going to turn into more tank/marine, but I'm certainly no good at this game. I think certain maps will favor bio heavily against mech, where mech or tank marine will be viable on others. Only time will tell I guess
Marine-tank is bio to me =[
i agree that pure bio is not fun whatsoever, marine+tank is decent but mech is the most fun. i still think mech will prevail over bio dont you? its not like mass marine will beat mech and we've seen pure MMM can beat mech (ie. polt). mass tank will still rape bio i hope. mech ftw!
edit: it was pretty hard to beat good mech player with pure MMM and with marine+tank it was almost impossible to beat pure mech so it's gonna be bit "easier"
"Bio whores" :< I just find Biomech a lot more fun and intense to play, it also rewards mechanics more imo and that plays to my strenghts. BFH was fucking ridiculous and I'm so glad they are nerfing it, they were simple too cost effective and I don't know how anyone could deny that.
Mech play rewards players with good decision making/patience/game sense though so I guess it's all about how you like to play the game, what I didn't like was that bio became such a bad option in the end. Bio to me is also including tanks, pure bio was never really in my taste either. At least bio feels like a more valid option to mech now which is great, I think the mech-oriented play in TvT made it a lot more about coinflipping the right BO and whoever could do the most damage with his hellions won.
On September 20 2011 20:03 rpgalon wrote: the new warp prism buff is to balance the cost/reward of protoss drops. protoss drops deal little damage and are very expensive, so by making warp prism stronger, protoss drops becomes "low cost/low reward" instead of "high cost/low reward"
PS: No ghost change Oo!?!!? Mother Mercy
Warp prisms carrying HT will have to become standard to deal with the ghost micro situations, and it will be fine because of how robust they are now.
Ye, although it was already pretty standard for let's say White-RA <3
On September 20 2011 20:33 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: Sorry guys, maybe I missed it, but I thought...Neural Parasite is no longer able to target Massive units....so I guess it has been canceled?
Now NP can still target Massive, but the range has been creased from 9 to 7?
Correct, although this was known for awhile already.
On September 20 2011 20:33 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote: Sorry guys, maybe I missed it, but I thought...Neural Parasite is no longer able to target Massive units....so I guess it has been canceled?
Now NP can still target Massive, but the range has been creased from 9 to 7?
Correct. As far as the leniency range you can move the unit around after it is neuralled, I am unsure
Sorry for a little off topic, but ... wow...I just finished the patch, I went to Single Player vs AI, and it says no content found. I went multiplayer, and each map has this yellow arrow symbol meaning I lost all my maps....?
I like the fact Hellions won't be so abusive early game. What I really dislike however is how negative impact this has on TvP where Zealots have basically no answer beside kiting MMM.. No way I enjoy TvP playing like a Zerg - just feels so wrong.
On September 20 2011 20:48 Everlong wrote: I like the fact Hellions won't be so abusive early game. What I really dislike however is how negative impact this has on TvP where Zealots have basically no answer beside kiting MMM.. No way I enjoy TvP playing like a Zerg - just feels so wrong.
On September 20 2011 20:48 Everlong wrote: I like the fact Hellions won't be so abusive early game. What I really dislike however is how negative impact this has on TvP where Zealots have basically no answer beside kiting MMM.. No way I enjoy TvP playing like a Zerg - just feels so wrong.
tanks emp snipe, theres 3 answers right there
Tanks are an answer to zealots? This is news to me.
On September 20 2011 20:48 Everlong wrote: I like the fact Hellions won't be so abusive early game. What I really dislike however is how negative impact this has on TvP where Zealots have basically no answer beside kiting MMM.. No way I enjoy TvP playing like a Zerg - just feels so wrong.
tanks emp snipe, theres 3 answers right there
Wow I didn't expect someone to go this far to put tank as a counter to one of the best anti-tank units in the whole game..
I also hope you are joking with snipe, how are you going to snipe 30 zealots charging to your face in less then 5 seconds?
Also, I see no problems with Hellions doing this amout of damage to workers later in the game, at least in TvT. It's like leaving your base without Missile Turrets and suddenly a bunch of Mutas appear completly devastating your economy.
As Terran you have PF, turret rings, ST, 1-2 siege tanks parked at expos/important places, more than enough to prevent Hellions from ruining your day.
On September 20 2011 20:48 Everlong wrote: I like the fact Hellions won't be so abusive early game. What I really dislike however is how negative impact this has on TvP where Zealots have basically no answer beside kiting MMM.. No way I enjoy TvP playing like a Zerg - just feels so wrong.
tanks emp snipe, theres 3 answers right there
tanks are bad idea, vs zealots u wanna kite not be stationary. and with tanks u are doing so. also snipe isnt much cost effective vs zealots cause they have LOTS of hp. emp is much better.
i wonder how tvt will look now. change has huge impact early game. there is no diffrence in bf//regular hellions 3shot scv//3shot marine (now its 2/2) only in hellion wars it makes diffrence so rushing for bf wont be so effective now - not worth 150//150 - maybe they should lower the cost ? but in late game diffrences (1.3 vs 1.4) aren't as big. marine with shield is being 3 shot by both types of bf. however in small engaments (like with drops) medivacs will be able to heal marine so it can survive 4 shots. i think that diffrence tank//rine or mech will be much more map dependant. more flanking options and maps where u can abuse mobility = go for marines//tank.
On September 20 2011 18:13 graNite wrote: Don't forget you have to build a drone for a spore crawler, so it costs 125.
You also have to factor that while the scv is building it won't mine, and that the drone could have mined until the end of the game if it had not been turned into a spore crawler and that while the scv is away building it won't get sniped by muta harass in the mineral line thus will mine later and...
You get the picture.
thats a moot point simply because the cost of the drone for Zerg buildings is so damn simple and very clearly a direct cost of the building that it would be ignorant not to factor it into the equation.
i really dont know why you are trying to keep drone cost out of the equation because it just makes it seem like youre biased against Zerg
His point is that every race has its own unique characteristics and there are very very few direct comparisons that can be made. Some things can be directly compared...like a spore colony is slightly weaker than a missile turret in damage output, but can move and is slightly cheaper. But most things are so different in so many ways that assigning any sort of value to any attribute is nearly impossible.
Results are one of the only things that can accurately determine any sort of comparison between races, and even that is flawed because of small sample sizes and differing player skills.
This + league icon displayed next to their name on score screen (if they've done placements) as shown in someone else's screenshot
the league icon never showed up for me....I couldn't find the setting for it so I guess it takes time to load up the icon? Or is it just that short cut to check their leagues and not league icons in score screen?
My update broke my game, reinstalling all over again....sigh
On September 20 2011 18:13 graNite wrote: Don't forget you have to build a drone for a spore crawler, so it costs 125.
You also have to factor that while the scv is building it won't mine, and that the drone could have mined until the end of the game if it had not been turned into a spore crawler and that while the scv is away building it won't get sniped by muta harass in the mineral line thus will mine later and...
You get the picture.
thats a moot point simply because the cost of the drone for Zerg buildings is so damn simple and very clearly a direct cost of the building that it would be ignorant not to factor it into the equation.
i really dont know why you are trying to keep drone cost out of the equation because it just makes it seem like youre biased against Zerg
His point is that every race has its own unique characteristics and there are very very few direct comparisons that can be made. Some things can be directly compared...like a spore colony is slightly weaker than a missile turret in damage output, but can move and is slightly cheaper. But most things are so different in so many ways that assigning any sort of value to any attribute is nearly impossible.
Results are one of the only things that can accurately determine any sort of comparison between races, and even that is flawed because of small sample sizes and differing player skills.
I agree, but he was quoting someone who was reminding someone to add 50 minerals to the cost of spore crawlers because of the drone lost. Building a spore crawler costs 75 minerals and you lose a drone which costs 50 minerals. Its very clear, very direct. There is no reason to leave it out of the discussion
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
This patch won't change anything in TvT really . Mech will still be better , and used more . Now that the HSM has speed , HSM will destroy anyhing that is bio . Tank/hellion/raven will still destroy any kind of bio composition . The blue flame hellion openings could become less used , but i don't think that pros will give up on it so easily , because of 1 more shot to kill SCVs with it .
On September 20 2011 20:48 Everlong wrote: I like the fact Hellions won't be so abusive early game. What I really dislike however is how negative impact this has on TvP where Zealots have basically no answer beside kiting MMM.. No way I enjoy TvP playing like a Zerg - just feels so wrong.
Not really... Upgraded Hellions will still be very good against zealots. I don't think it will impact TvP much at all.
This + league icon displayed next to their name on score screen (if they've done placements) as shown in someone else's screenshot
the league icon never showed up for me....I couldn't find the setting for it so I guess it takes time to load up the icon? Or is it just that short cut to check their leagues and not league icons in score screen?
My update broke my game, reinstalling all over again....sigh
I think it only shows when you do a ranked match because I haven't seen it after a custom in the other screenshot in this thread.
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
This patch won't change anything in TvT really . Mech will still be better , and used more . Now that the HSM has speed , HSM will destroy anyhing that is bio . Tank/hellion/raven will still destroy any kind of bio composition . The blue flame hellion openings could become less used , but i don't think that pros will give up on it so easily , because of 1 more shot to kill SCVs with it .
You think HSM use will be greatly affected but not hellion use? Lol. The HSM speed isn't that great of a change. It's now a fraction of a section faster than rolling banelings off creep and workers. However, if those units run for long enough the missile won't hit them because its duration will end. One more shot to kill workers for hellions is a much more drastic change than a unit all the way at the very tip of the tech tree, which requires 125 mana from a unit which could much better spend its energy anyway...
On September 20 2011 13:29 gengka wrote: time to kiss 1-1-1 goodbye and retrain MMMG hahaha
how was 1-1-1 nerfed?
Barracks take another 5 seconds to build. Helps to keep the marine count lower, so with the immortal buff we should be able to hold it without needing to blind counter, do everything perfectly, and rely on our opponent screwing up.
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
This patch won't change anything in TvT really . Mech will still be better , and used more . Now that the HSM has speed , HSM will destroy anyhing that is bio . Tank/hellion/raven will still destroy any kind of bio composition . The blue flame hellion openings could become less used , but i don't think that pros will give up on it so easily , because of 1 more shot to kill SCVs with it .
It will change TvT more than you probably think.
3 shots to kill a unupgraded SCV will probably do wonders to reduce the early game volatility of TvT.
basically what happened was pre 1.4 if there was no room to drop the unit was dropped on top of other units, whereas in 1.4 if there is no room to drop the unit will not drop. there is a thread about this whole topic already
basically what happened was pre 1.4 if there was no room to drop the unit was dropped on top of other units, whereas in 1.4 if there is no room to drop the unit will not drop. there is a thread about this whole topic already
So, there has been a change since the last patch...? I wasn't sure if blizzard implemented this in 1.4 or just trying it out on 1.4 PTR...
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
You mean TvT has most likely become an unplayable joke.......
Care to elaborate on that? I'm no TvT fanatic but I would think that this would fix the ridiculously stupid (imo) hellion drops that have basically 2 outcomes:
Win the game/SEVERELY cripple opponent OR Lose 400 Minerals (and maybe 100/100 of a medivac)
Can't see why this wasn't a good change but I'm interested to see your input o.o
Pretty likely its gonna turn TvT into a bio matchup again, if it does I will quit TvT asaply.
Hellions were not overpowered TvT at all, making non-combat shield marines take 3 hits before they die is a joke =[ If it stays mech I dont care so much about the change but Im not sure it will.
I actually agree with Jinro here. Now that I think about it, the good thing about hellions was that it creates some uncertainty in the game which is exactly what I think SC2 needs. It seems that T v X is just going to be fkn bio vs everything now.
Bio Ball vs Toss Bio Ball vs Terran Marine/Tank/Medivac vs Zerg... which you could pretty much call Bio Ball
Terran complaining about hellions, are you kidding me..... you guys have the unit to utilise as well. I think the hellion was great for the T v T matchup as it's a make or break type of unit. Now T v T is just going to be more boring then ever before. No more seeing OMFG all his scv's are lined up for the hellions rolling in!!!!
Must say, well thought out blizzard...... I guess it is their game after all.....
And yeah, lets start using Ravens with the seeker missile upgrade. Although you will have to wait till Christmas before it pops from the starport.
Yea I was lagging really bad @ SEA server a bit ago. I also tried playing custom game Storm of the Imperial Sanctum, and the patch has made that custom game buggy (auto buy)
basically what happened was pre 1.4 if there was no room to drop the unit was dropped on top of other units, whereas in 1.4 if there is no room to drop the unit will not drop. there is a thread about this whole topic already
So, there has been a change since the last patch...? I wasn't sure if blizzard implemented this in 1.4 or just trying it out on 1.4 PTR...
it was a bug fix, if you watch the video it shows nothing will significantly change in reguards to baneling drops
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
what was wrong with hellions in TvT? I loved watching the mech style of the new TvT...
enjoy watching it all you want, but playing a matchup where more than half your games involve one player winning because they snuck a hellion drop past their opponent and instakilled 15 scvs got extremely stupid to play
every race has to deal w that except the one who has a portable map editor as a unit
as for the NP change, ive never used NP except vs mass thor so it wont change much for my MU vs P. as for dealing w mass thors ill still give NP a shot, otherwise ill never use NP and dont see it as a vital skill required for Z to win with. now w the range decrease ill disregard it evne more.
basically what happened was pre 1.4 if there was no room to drop the unit was dropped on top of other units, whereas in 1.4 if there is no room to drop the unit will not drop. there is a thread about this whole topic already
I just tested it... This went LIVE! You can all go test it for yourself. Get a bunch of units in a tight, gigantic ball, get an overlord with banes inside of it, and try to drop on the center of the gigantic ball. You get an error message. Don't try and move across the units while dropping, just simply go to the center and try to drop.
Likewise, get the same overlord to move while dropping on top of the units and make a ring of FF's around that ball of units. The banelings must either drop outside of the FF's, or not at all.
Also, I see no problems with Hellions doing this amout of damage to workers later in the game, at least in TvT. It's like leaving your base without Missile Turrets and suddenly a bunch of Mutas appear completly devastating your economy.
LOL, except for the part where mutalisks cost 100/100 and 3-4 of them can't cripple someones economy in two game seconds like BFH can.
If someone wipes your base with mutas they generally invested 1000/1000+, and that's for the units alone
basically what happened was pre 1.4 if there was no room to drop the unit was dropped on top of other units, whereas in 1.4 if there is no room to drop the unit will not drop. there is a thread about this whole topic already
I just tested it... This went LIVE! You can all go test it for yourself. Get a bunch of units in a tight, gigantic ball, get an overlord with banes inside of it, and try to drop on the center of the gigantic ball. You get an error message. Don't try and move across the units while dropping, just simply go to the center and try to drop.
Likewise, get the same overlord to move while dropping on top of the units and make a ring of FF's around that ball of units. The banelings must either drop outside of the FF's, or not at all.
you got the error message pre 1.4 too, as shown in the video, the fix was that if you start dropping OUTSIDE the packed area it doesn't continue dropping when it hits an area where it wouldn't be able to continue dropping
The hellion nerf was sooo necessary. The infestor NP nerf was kinda... unexpected... didn't feel like it needed a nerf, especially when (at top levels) players are intelligent enough to grab a few ranged units and focus down NP'ing infestors.
I hope Protoss can now stand a competitive chance! Sad this went live a few days before MC got knocked down to code B...
On September 20 2011 13:29 gengka wrote: time to kiss 1-1-1 goodbye and retrain MMMG hahaha
how was 1-1-1 nerfed?
Barracks take another 5 seconds to build. Helps to keep the marine count lower, so with the immortal buff we should be able to hold it without needing to blind counter, do everything perfectly, and rely on our opponent screwing up.
Do you even play this game? How does 3 real life seconds off of a timing affect anything but 11/11 rax vs Zerg? (Answer: it doesn't)
On September 21 2011 01:26 ItchyLegs wrote: The hellion nerf was sooo necessary. The infestor NP nerf was kinda... unexpected... didn't feel like it needed a nerf, especially when (at top levels) players are intelligent enough to grab a few ranged units and focus down NP'ing infestors.
I hope Protoss can now stand a competitive chance! Sad this went live a few days before MC got knocked down to code B...
the thing is, the hellion nerf won't change anything, instead of 2 hellions wiping out your probes in 1 second they now take 1.5. and 3 hellions will still wipe out the base. the change to hellions should have been in their cost not their damage.
i agree with you on the NP nerf, the more i watch pro games the more i wonder why they actually NP the colossus.....the stalkers or other colossus almost immediately focus down teh NPing infestor. IMO you should be grabbing the immortal, its great against most of the protoss death ball + it keeps your infestors out of colossus range. well, it did before this patch.
On September 21 2011 01:26 ItchyLegs wrote: The hellion nerf was sooo necessary. The infestor NP nerf was kinda... unexpected... didn't feel like it needed a nerf, especially when (at top levels) players are intelligent enough to grab a few ranged units and focus down NP'ing infestors.
I hope Protoss can now stand a competitive chance! Sad this went live a few days before MC got knocked down to code B...
the thing is, the hellion nerf won't change anything, instead of 2 hellions wiping out your probes in 1 second they now take 1.5. and 3 hellions will still wipe out the base. the change to hellions should have been in their cost not their damage.
i agree with you on the NP nerf, the more i watch pro games the more i wonder why they actually NP the colossus.....the stalkers or other colossus almost immediately focus down teh NPing infestor. IMO you should be grabbing the immortal, its great against most of the protoss death ball + it keeps your infestors out of colossus range. well, it did before this patch.
The hellion nerf is pretty big when it comes to engagements versus things that aren't probes, you know. Like zealots and sentries (moreso zealots). It's not exactly the most minor of changes, but it's not major either, since they're so easy to procure and benefit quite well from weapon ups.
And the reason you'd grab the colossus is because they remove your forces quicker than immortals do. Any amount of time that the colossus is sitting there, hitting the protosses own units is time spent not hitting your stuff : O
In all honesty though, the most confusing part of the patch (personally) was the 5 seconds to barracks build time... its not going to stop bad players from losing to bunker rushes, and its just going to make the early Terran build order feel strange... Oh well. Its only five seconds I guess.
Almost every ZvT series i've seen from pro's they lose a game to 2 rax aggression in one game. I'm not saying its OP but to say that only BAD players lose to it is ignorant.
On September 21 2011 01:26 ItchyLegs wrote: The hellion nerf was sooo necessary. The infestor NP nerf was kinda... unexpected... didn't feel like it needed a nerf, especially when (at top levels) players are intelligent enough to grab a few ranged units and focus down NP'ing infestors.
I hope Protoss can now stand a competitive chance! Sad this went live a few days before MC got knocked down to code B...
the thing is, the hellion nerf won't change anything, instead of 2 hellions wiping out your probes in 1 second they now take 1.5. and 3 hellions will still wipe out the base. the change to hellions should have been in their cost not their damage.
i agree with you on the NP nerf, the more i watch pro games the more i wonder why they actually NP the colossus.....the stalkers or other colossus almost immediately focus down teh NPing infestor. IMO you should be grabbing the immortal, its great against most of the protoss death ball + it keeps your infestors out of colossus range. well, it did before this patch.
The hellion nerf is pretty big when it comes to engagements versus things that aren't probes, you know. Like zealots and sentries (moreso zealots). It's not exactly the most minor of changes, but it's not major either, since they're so easy to procure and benefit quite well from weapon ups.
And the reason you'd grab the colossus is because they remove your forces quicker than immortals do. Any amount of time that the colossus is sitting there, hitting the protosses own units is time spent not hitting your stuff : O
In all honesty though, the most confusing part of the patch (personally) was the 5 seconds to barracks build time... its not going to stop bad players from losing to bunker rushes, and its just going to make the early Terran build order feel strange... Oh well. Its only five seconds I guess.
I feel the 5 seconds is to allow the other opponent to respond better in close positions that Bliz just won't remove.
On September 21 2011 01:26 ItchyLegs wrote: The hellion nerf was sooo necessary. The infestor NP nerf was kinda... unexpected... didn't feel like it needed a nerf, especially when (at top levels) players are intelligent enough to grab a few ranged units and focus down NP'ing infestors.
I hope Protoss can now stand a competitive chance! Sad this went live a few days before MC got knocked down to code B...
the thing is, the hellion nerf won't change anything, instead of 2 hellions wiping out your probes in 1 second they now take 1.5. and 3 hellions will still wipe out the base. the change to hellions should have been in their cost not their damage.
i agree with you on the NP nerf, the more i watch pro games the more i wonder why they actually NP the colossus.....the stalkers or other colossus almost immediately focus down teh NPing infestor. IMO you should be grabbing the immortal, its great against most of the protoss death ball + it keeps your infestors out of colossus range. well, it did before this patch.
The hellion nerf is pretty big when it comes to engagements versus things that aren't probes, you know. Like zealots and sentries (moreso zealots). It's not exactly the most minor of changes, but it's not major either, since they're so easy to procure and benefit quite well from weapon ups.
And the reason you'd grab the colossus is because they remove your forces quicker than immortals do. Any amount of time that the colossus is sitting there, hitting the protosses own units is time spent not hitting your stuff : O
In all honesty though, the most confusing part of the patch (personally) was the 5 seconds to barracks build time... its not going to stop bad players from losing to bunker rushes, and its just going to make the early Terran build order feel strange... Oh well. Its only five seconds I guess.
zerg might be able to start hatch firsting again vs terran with that change.....i don't play zerg so i don't really know
On September 21 2011 01:31 polysciguy wrote: Show nested quote +
the thing is, the hellion nerf won't change anything, instead of 2 hellions wiping out your probes in 1 second they now take 1.5. and 3 hellions will still wipe out the base. the change to hellions should have been in their cost not their damage.
i agree with you on the NP nerf, the more i watch pro games the more i wonder why they actually NP the colossus.....the stalkers or other colossus almost immediately focus down teh NPing infestor. IMO you should be grabbing the immortal, its great against most of the protoss death ball + it keeps your infestors out of colossus range. well, it did before this patch.
The hellion nerf is pretty big when it comes to engagements versus things that aren't probes, you know. Like zealots and sentries (moreso zealots). It's not exactly the most minor of changes, but it's not major either, since they're so easy to procure and benefit quite well from weapon ups.
And the reason you'd grab the colossus is because they remove your forces quicker than immortals do. Any amount of time that the colossus is sitting there, hitting the protosses own units is time spent not hitting your stuff : O
In all honesty though, the most confusing part of the patch (personally) was the 5 seconds to barracks build time... its not going to stop bad players from losing to bunker rushes, and its just going to make the early Terran build order feel strange... Oh well. Its only five seconds I guess.
It's not really supposed to stop bad players from losing to bunker rushes, it's supposed to stop good players from losing to bunker rushes. Bad players will always lose to rushes, it is quite standard =)
On September 21 2011 01:26 ItchyLegs wrote: The hellion nerf was sooo necessary. The infestor NP nerf was kinda... unexpected... didn't feel like it needed a nerf, especially when (at top levels) players are intelligent enough to grab a few ranged units and focus down NP'ing infestors.
I hope Protoss can now stand a competitive chance! Sad this went live a few days before MC got knocked down to code B...
the thing is, the hellion nerf won't change anything, instead of 2 hellions wiping out your probes in 1 second they now take 1.5. and 3 hellions will still wipe out the base. the change to hellions should have been in their cost not their damage.
i agree with you on the NP nerf, the more i watch pro games the more i wonder why they actually NP the colossus.....the stalkers or other colossus almost immediately focus down teh NPing infestor. IMO you should be grabbing the immortal, its great against most of the protoss death ball + it keeps your infestors out of colossus range. well, it did before this patch.
The hellion nerf is pretty big when it comes to engagements versus things that aren't probes, you know. Like zealots and sentries (moreso zealots). It's not exactly the most minor of changes, but it's not major either, since they're so easy to procure and benefit quite well from weapon ups.
And the reason you'd grab the colossus is because they remove your forces quicker than immortals do. Any amount of time that the colossus is sitting there, hitting the protosses own units is time spent not hitting your stuff : O
In all honesty though, the most confusing part of the patch (personally) was the 5 seconds to barracks build time... its not going to stop bad players from losing to bunker rushes, and its just going to make the early Terran build order feel strange... Oh well. Its only five seconds I guess.
zerg might be able to start hatch firsting again vs terran with that change.....i don't play zerg so i don't really know
I don't know what your talking about. Zerg do 15 hatch all the time regardless. I would say its standard zvt
On September 21 2011 01:26 ItchyLegs wrote: The hellion nerf was sooo necessary. The infestor NP nerf was kinda... unexpected... didn't feel like it needed a nerf, especially when (at top levels) players are intelligent enough to grab a few ranged units and focus down NP'ing infestors.
I hope Protoss can now stand a competitive chance! Sad this went live a few days before MC got knocked down to code B...
the thing is, the hellion nerf won't change anything, instead of 2 hellions wiping out your probes in 1 second they now take 1.5. and 3 hellions will still wipe out the base. the change to hellions should have been in their cost not their damage.
i agree with you on the NP nerf, the more i watch pro games the more i wonder why they actually NP the colossus.....the stalkers or other colossus almost immediately focus down teh NPing infestor. IMO you should be grabbing the immortal, its great against most of the protoss death ball + it keeps your infestors out of colossus range. well, it did before this patch.
The hellion nerf is pretty big when it comes to engagements versus things that aren't probes, you know. Like zealots and sentries (moreso zealots). It's not exactly the most minor of changes, but it's not major either, since they're so easy to procure and benefit quite well from weapon ups.
And the reason you'd grab the colossus is because they remove your forces quicker than immortals do. Any amount of time that the colossus is sitting there, hitting the protosses own units is time spent not hitting your stuff : O
In all honesty though, the most confusing part of the patch (personally) was the 5 seconds to barracks build time... its not going to stop bad players from losing to bunker rushes, and its just going to make the early Terran build order feel strange... Oh well. Its only five seconds I guess.
zerg might be able to start hatch firsting again vs terran with that change.....i don't play zerg so i don't really know
I don't know what your talking about. Zerg do 15 hatch all the time regardless. I would say its standard zvt
it was, i was under the impression though that several zergs had started going pool first because 11/11 was so hard to hold off with a hatch first build.
On September 20 2011 08:30 Pokebunny wrote: YES YES YES YES
YES!!!!!!!!!
Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5.
at long last.. TvT has been saved!!!
You mean TvT has most likely become an unplayable joke.......
Oh Jinro.. I know you like mech play but have you put yourself in the viewer's shoes? It's not fun watching two guys drawing lines on the map with tanks and mining, mining, mining minerals while upgrading for 50 mins, only to clash to a 10 second battle ending.
I for one only watched the 2 games (puzzle games) from today's code S VODs after skimping through the LR thread. It seems like exactly what I expected have happened in TvTs and I am not sure if I will spend time to watch those games.
And good luck to Artosis who despises marauders. Hope he enjoys casting 50 min of turtling every game. He should be happy since his dream TvT is finally here.
Game Options Added three privacy settings to the Options menu under the Battle.net section. Only allow friends to send me invites. Only allow friends to send me chat messages. Set status to Busy when playing a game.
I don't understand how you are supposed to make more/new friends if everyone is only allowed to chat to their already existing friends? Am I missing something?
Game Options Added three privacy settings to the Options menu under the Battle.net section. Only allow friends to send me invites. Only allow friends to send me chat messages. Set status to Busy when playing a game.
I don't understand how you are supposed to make more/new friends if everyone is only allowed to chat to their already existing friends? Am I missing something?
It's a new option that you have to go into options to enable, it's mainly for streamers and popular players so they don't have to get spammed every time they are online.
On September 20 2011 14:12 g. wrote: so wait, i think ive missed something but what happened to the whole thing about you cant NP massive units?
standard play, either ling/infestor or ling/bling/muta: will be more powerful vs terran than before.
so please do tell, what zerg cheeses are you complaining about?
yeah, now zerg just spams out units like a bitch to eventually A move whilst Terran needs to micro their ass off to even stand a chance. Anyone who says mutas takes micro imo is a cop out.
Thinking a race switch to Protoss sounds good.
Lol, I'm a toss player and I fail to see the difference between muta micro and marine micro. For one, you keep them together, snipe off buildings and units on the fringes. The other, stim, pull back, stim pull back. rinse repeat?
On September 21 2011 05:06 Zuxo wrote: Still waiting for the ghost patch Browder and stop rubbing your hands together!
Do you realise that terrans can't hold infestor + hive without ghosts? Do you realise that ghosts are needed lategame in tvp to stand a SMALL chance?
Do you realize that toss can't hold mmm without HT or Collossi? Do you realize that you need HT if vikings are out or you have NO chance? Do you realize that toss can't hold mmm + ghost without... wait..
On September 21 2011 05:06 Zuxo wrote: Still waiting for the ghost patch Browder and stop rubbing your hands together!
Do you realise that terrans can't hold infestor + hive without ghosts? Do you realise that ghosts are needed lategame in tvp to stand a SMALL chance?
Do you realize that toss can't hold mmm without HT or Collossi? Do you realize that you need HT if vikings are out or you have NO chance? Do you realize that toss can't hold mmm + ghost without... wait..
Anyone has problem with the sound? Me and my teammates, all has problems with the sound after upgrade to 1.4.0. It adjust the volume in the very weird way and very annoying. Might be a bug or something.
On September 21 2011 08:27 mashix wrote: Anyone has problem with the sound? Me and my teammates, all has problems with the sound after upgrade to 1.4.0. It adjust the volume in the very weird way and very annoying. Might be a bug or something.
Yes I have the same thing. When mutas come in my base to rape my mineral line I cant hear them anymore if im looking at my barracks. Very annoying t.t
On September 21 2011 07:27 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Lemme finish that for you.
Colossi. Hell, even get air units.
I'm sorry but I refuse to play Colossus Phoenix. I refuse. I fucking hate that piece of shit, one dimensional, no skill type of matchup.
Surely that's a counterproductive way to think. We should use what works. Plus, I wouldn't say phoenix are a "no skill" unit even if their primary purpose in that composition is to amove into vikings.
Actually, is there a reason nobody uses colo-phoenix anymore? Phoenix still get dominated by ghosts - what doesn't? - but they'd stand up to mmmgv better than gateway-ht-colo these days, surely.
On September 21 2011 07:27 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Lemme finish that for you.
Colossi. Hell, even get air units.
I'm sorry but I refuse to play Colossus Phoenix. I refuse. I fucking hate that piece of shit, one dimensional, no skill type of matchup.
Surely that's a counterproductive way to think. We should use what works. Plus, I wouldn't say phoenix are a "no skill" unit even if their primary purpose in that composition is to amove into vikings.
Actually, is there a reason nobody uses colo-phoenix anymore? Phoenix still get dominated by ghosts - what doesn't? - but they'd stand up to mmmgv better than gateway-ht-colo these days, surely.
Because 1 or 2 Thor will make your phoenixes disappear in few seconds while the Terran just need to control his vikings focus fire on colossi.
On September 21 2011 05:06 Zuxo wrote: Still waiting for the ghost patch Browder and stop rubbing your hands together!
Do you realise that terrans can't hold infestor + hive without ghosts? Do you realise that ghosts are needed lategame in tvp to stand a SMALL chance?
Do you realize that toss can't hold mmm without HT or Collossi? Do you realize that you need HT if vikings are out or you have NO chance? Do you realize that toss can't hold mmm + ghost without... wait..
Lemme finish that for you.
Colossi. Hell, even get air units.
Funny thing is, mmm with ghost can blanket the toss army and still win vs low numbers of collossus. with large colo counts u need vikings, which u can have in seconds since u already have reactor starport for medivacs. And Voila! we're back to terran domination.
Oh and air vs mmm... ur joking right? vs stimmed marines? vs EMP? hello?
On September 21 2011 07:27 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Lemme finish that for you.
Colossi. Hell, even get air units.
I'm sorry but I refuse to play Colossus Phoenix. I refuse. I fucking hate that piece of shit, one dimensional, no skill type of matchup.
Surely that's a counterproductive way to think. We should use what works. Plus, I wouldn't say phoenix are a "no skill" unit even if their primary purpose in that composition is to amove into vikings.
Actually, is there a reason nobody uses colo-phoenix anymore? Phoenix still get dominated by ghosts - what doesn't? - but they'd stand up to mmmgv better than gateway-ht-colo these days, surely.
Because 1 or 2 Thor will make your phoenixes disappear in few seconds while the Terran just need to control his vikings focus fire on colossi.
Ah, thors. I remember now. How I've loved not having you in my life so much the last few months.
i absolutely HATE what they did to the sound. All it does is turn down the sound in the middle of a battle. It's super distracting. It feels like the sound is just bugging out instead of making sure that certain sounds arent cut off. I feel like it just completely goes out at times
I dislike that larva cocoons now pop units with annoying amount of green acid around the event. It can be misleading, because it looks like something died, or a baneling exploded. Hope Blizz reverts it.
my sound is all jacked up anddespite running at average of 75-100 fps the game feels like its chugging along at 15fps, and it doesnt matter the lag is from start of game all the way until the end. didnt have either of these problems until i dl new patch
On September 21 2011 11:21 LittleAtari wrote: i absolutely HATE what they did to the sound. All it does is turn down the sound in the middle of a battle. It's super distracting. It feels like the sound is just bugging out instead of making sure that certain sounds arent cut off. I feel like it just completely goes out at times
Oh is that seriously true? I was freaking out yesterday thinking my sound was bugged lol.
On September 21 2011 11:21 LittleAtari wrote: i absolutely HATE what they did to the sound. All it does is turn down the sound in the middle of a battle. It's super distracting. It feels like the sound is just bugging out instead of making sure that certain sounds arent cut off. I feel like it just completely goes out at times
Oh is that seriously true? I was freaking out yesterday thinking my sound was bugged lol.
omg me too, and it absolutely is annoying! at least make it an option, that would be so much easier. I think i will just play with no sound on and i tunes up, a lot easier
EPT
Then again I don't play Protoss..
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