EPTOn September 20 2011 11:57 Arisen wrote:
Also, you turned a TvZ discussion somehow right back to ZvP, so I don't know how that fits in...
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On September 20 2011 11:29 Ftrunkz wrote:
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My point was your post (and this new one) are both INCREDIBLY biased towards your race in literally every way possible and any argument you make about literally anything can be thrown back at you with similar biased logic from any one of the other races point of views. I honestly fail to see any part of my post that spoke less truth than any of your opinions... Hell i'll do it again just for kicks...
Well, all my stuff was true, all yours wasn't? Name me a game where the Zerg played well, didn't make any major mistakes and punished a protoss player accordingly if he took 3 bases with equal econ and still lost to a zerg? For every 1 game you give me, I can give you 100 games of zerg rolling a protoss because he had an econ advantage going into lategame and rolled over him with infestor broodlord. That's just the way the matchup works,zerg cripples protoss going into late-game so the protoss cant do anything, so you have to win in the midgame with timing pushes or pray the zerg's a retard. And while I think that reflects poor game design, it's the way things are. So it is perfectly justifiable to nerf the major component to making midgame zerg armies strong versus protoss when protoss have proven to be able to deal with infesotrs fine?
As to comparing the ghost to the infestor; I don't know what to say about that. You're wrong, I suppose is the long and short of it. Yeah, if you could fungal growth and NP unhindered, I guess the infestor is on par with the ghost, but you can with broodlord support. broodlords and infestors outrange templar and stalker by a ton, and infestors fungalling negating out Our ability to blink and get under or away from broodlords and Neural is equal range to Collosi, so they can be delt with safely and neural is fantastic versus HT to feedbacking other HT as well. infestors can Hide behind broodslords, meaning you have to suicide a large amount of units just to have a chance at killing, combined with fungalling and running away or just burrowing make them practically untargatable. Sure, you can try to use your mobility to get around the slow zerg army, the only problem is that our most mobile units are all countered by lings which are even more mobile, and since broodlord infestor is a gas heavy combo, ling complement the combo perfectly allowing the zerg to shutdown any sort of harassment easily if he isnt a retard
The difference is I can give you a fuckton of examples of people dealing with greedy protosses trying to take a third and getting punished ridiculously hard, whilst you cant give me a lot of examples of people dealing with lategame broodlord infestor (atleast pvz)
But seriously, my point isn't that my edit of your posts holds true to what my opinion is, which I think is the part that you're missing, it's that my arguments, that seem so ridiculously stupid and obviously wrong to you, are actually on the same level of biased bullshit as yours are, all I've done is edited a few words to make it reflect the opposite side of the stories view, hence why EVERYONE but other butthurt zerg players will laugh at your post, my edits of your post, and the idea that people can actually be that 1-sided in their approach to sc2.
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On September 20 2011 10:29 Arisen wrote:
Well, all my stuff was true, all yours wasn't? Name me a game where the protoss played well, didn't make any major mistakes and secured 3 base without huge losses and still lost versus zerg? For every 1 game you give me, I can give you 100 games of protoss rolling a zerg because he didn't have a game winning advantage going into lategame. That's just the way the matchup works, protoss lategame versus zerg is pretty much untouchable, so you have to win in the midgame. And while I think that reflects poor game design, it's the way things are. So why now is it justifiable to nerf the major component to making midgame zerg armies strong versus protoss when protoss have proven to be struggling in every single major tournament as of late.
As to comparing the ghost to the infestor; I don't know what to say about that. You're wrong, I suppose is the long and short of it. Yeah, if you could fungal growth and NP unhindered, I guess the infestor is on par with the ghost, but you can't. Tanks and ghosts outrange infestors by a ton, negating out spellcasters and snipe is equal range to brood lords, so they can be delt with safely and snipe is fantastic versus ultralisks as well. Ghosts can cast every spell cloaked and can snipe mobile detection before they can be targeted so they can remain untargatable. Sure, you can cast IT's burrowed...that does a lot versus a late game army with a ton of splash damage :/ (that is assuming they're bad enough to not have detection anyway, which zerg doesn't have a way of sniping easily...
The difference is I can give you a fuckton of examples of people dealing with infestors, wehre as you can't give me a lot of examples of people dealing with late game ghosts (at least ZvT).
That was kinda fun...
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On September 20 2011 09:21 Ftrunkz wrote:
This is actually the most "Paper is fine and completely balanced, but for fucks sake rock is OBVIOUSLY a HUGE problem -Scissors" post i've seen in a while, kudos on the balance whine so whiney it actually made me giggle! For a laugh, Imma do the protoss version of what u just said except with the HT a few patches ago (with italics marking the only changes i made!).
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the High Templar nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and Terran is still Way too strong early-mid game - High Templar just give a few strong options for Protoss lategame. Good players can absolutely deal with High Templar and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game ghosts, battlecruiser, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about High Templar and not being able to auto win versus Protoss on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the Infestor is killing everyfucking thing. Nerual Parasites range is so insane and the Infestor is Cost effective vs everything and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and terran have and can Burrow and snipe Workers/bases with Infested terrans to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that terran and protoss have tried everything and the Infestor is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the High templar in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because Protoss units are so expensive we need strong AoE to make up for our lack of numbers. Zergs literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of Infestors in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both Stargate options as well as robo tech units (Collosi and immortals get destroyed by Neurals- they don't even need to use fungal) and every terran unit with Fungal Growth.
That was kinda fun :D.
On September 20 2011 08:54 Arisen wrote:
Well, ghosts didn't get a nerf, that's super O.o
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the infestor nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and protoss is still pretty much unbeatable late game - infestors just give a few strong options for midgame. Good players can absolutely deal with infestors and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game phoenix, mothership, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about infestors and not being able to auto win versus zerg on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the ghost is killing everyfucking thing. Snipe's range is so insane and the ghost is now cheap on gas and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and zerg have and can cloak and snipe obs/overseers to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that zergs and protoss have tried everything and the ghost is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the infestor in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because zerg units are so cost inefficient (baring perhaps the BL). Terrans literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of ghosts in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both hive tech options as well as lair tech units (mutas and infestors get destroyed by snipe- they don't even need to use EMP) and every protoss unit with EMP.
Come on blizzard; please focus on stuff that actually needs attention rather than making changes for casual players :/
Well, ghosts didn't get a nerf, that's super O.o
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the infestor nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and protoss is still pretty much unbeatable late game - infestors just give a few strong options for midgame. Good players can absolutely deal with infestors and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game phoenix, mothership, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about infestors and not being able to auto win versus zerg on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the ghost is killing everyfucking thing. Snipe's range is so insane and the ghost is now cheap on gas and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and zerg have and can cloak and snipe obs/overseers to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that zergs and protoss have tried everything and the ghost is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the infestor in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because zerg units are so cost inefficient (baring perhaps the BL). Terrans literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of ghosts in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both hive tech options as well as lair tech units (mutas and infestors get destroyed by snipe- they don't even need to use EMP) and every protoss unit with EMP.
Come on blizzard; please focus on stuff that actually needs attention rather than making changes for casual players :/
This is actually the most "Paper is fine and completely balanced, but for fucks sake rock is OBVIOUSLY a HUGE problem -Scissors" post i've seen in a while, kudos on the balance whine so whiney it actually made me giggle! For a laugh, Imma do the protoss version of what u just said except with the HT a few patches ago (with italics marking the only changes i made!).
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the High Templar nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and Terran is still Way too strong early-mid game - High Templar just give a few strong options for Protoss lategame. Good players can absolutely deal with High Templar and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game ghosts, battlecruiser, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about High Templar and not being able to auto win versus Protoss on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the Infestor is killing everyfucking thing. Nerual Parasites range is so insane and the Infestor is Cost effective vs everything and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and terran have and can Burrow and snipe Workers/bases with Infested terrans to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that terran and protoss have tried everything and the Infestor is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the High templar in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because Protoss units are so expensive we need strong AoE to make up for our lack of numbers. Zergs literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of Infestors in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both Stargate options as well as robo tech units (Collosi and immortals get destroyed by Neurals- they don't even need to use fungal) and every terran unit with Fungal Growth.
That was kinda fun :D.
Well, all my stuff was true, all yours wasn't? Name me a game where the protoss played well, didn't make any major mistakes and secured 3 base without huge losses and still lost versus zerg? For every 1 game you give me, I can give you 100 games of protoss rolling a zerg because he didn't have a game winning advantage going into lategame. That's just the way the matchup works, protoss lategame versus zerg is pretty much untouchable, so you have to win in the midgame. And while I think that reflects poor game design, it's the way things are. So why now is it justifiable to nerf the major component to making midgame zerg armies strong versus protoss when protoss have proven to be struggling in every single major tournament as of late.
As to comparing the ghost to the infestor; I don't know what to say about that. You're wrong, I suppose is the long and short of it. Yeah, if you could fungal growth and NP unhindered, I guess the infestor is on par with the ghost, but you can't. Tanks and ghosts outrange infestors by a ton, negating out spellcasters and snipe is equal range to brood lords, so they can be delt with safely and snipe is fantastic versus ultralisks as well. Ghosts can cast every spell cloaked and can snipe mobile detection before they can be targeted so they can remain untargatable. Sure, you can cast IT's burrowed...that does a lot versus a late game army with a ton of splash damage :/ (that is assuming they're bad enough to not have detection anyway, which zerg doesn't have a way of sniping easily...
The difference is I can give you a fuckton of examples of people dealing with infestors, wehre as you can't give me a lot of examples of people dealing with late game ghosts (at least ZvT).
That was kinda fun...
My point was your post (and this new one) are both INCREDIBLY biased towards your race in literally every way possible and any argument you make about literally anything can be thrown back at you with similar biased logic from any one of the other races point of views. I honestly fail to see any part of my post that spoke less truth than any of your opinions... Hell i'll do it again just for kicks...
Well, all my stuff was true, all yours wasn't? Name me a game where the Zerg played well, didn't make any major mistakes and punished a protoss player accordingly if he took 3 bases with equal econ and still lost to a zerg? For every 1 game you give me, I can give you 100 games of zerg rolling a protoss because he had an econ advantage going into lategame and rolled over him with infestor broodlord. That's just the way the matchup works,zerg cripples protoss going into late-game so the protoss cant do anything, so you have to win in the midgame with timing pushes or pray the zerg's a retard. And while I think that reflects poor game design, it's the way things are. So it is perfectly justifiable to nerf the major component to making midgame zerg armies strong versus protoss when protoss have proven to be able to deal with infesotrs fine?
As to comparing the ghost to the infestor; I don't know what to say about that. You're wrong, I suppose is the long and short of it. Yeah, if you could fungal growth and NP unhindered, I guess the infestor is on par with the ghost, but you can with broodlord support. broodlords and infestors outrange templar and stalker by a ton, and infestors fungalling negating out Our ability to blink and get under or away from broodlords and Neural is equal range to Collosi, so they can be delt with safely and neural is fantastic versus HT to feedbacking other HT as well. infestors can Hide behind broodslords, meaning you have to suicide a large amount of units just to have a chance at killing, combined with fungalling and running away or just burrowing make them practically untargatable. Sure, you can try to use your mobility to get around the slow zerg army, the only problem is that our most mobile units are all countered by lings which are even more mobile, and since broodlord infestor is a gas heavy combo, ling complement the combo perfectly allowing the zerg to shutdown any sort of harassment easily if he isnt a retard
The difference is I can give you a fuckton of examples of people dealing with greedy protosses trying to take a third and getting punished ridiculously hard, whilst you cant give me a lot of examples of people dealing with lategame broodlord infestor (atleast pvz)
But seriously, my point isn't that my edit of your posts holds true to what my opinion is, which I think is the part that you're missing, it's that my arguments, that seem so ridiculously stupid and obviously wrong to you, are actually on the same level of biased bullshit as yours are, all I've done is edited a few words to make it reflect the opposite side of the stories view, hence why EVERYONE but other butthurt zerg players will laugh at your post, my edits of your post, and the idea that people can actually be that 1-sided in their approach to sc2.
Also, you turned a TvZ discussion somehow right back to ZvP, so I don't know how that fits in...
Re-read the last paragraph of my last post, thats how it fits in, THAT's my point, everything else is just mocking you, how are you not getting this.
