SEA Patch 1.4 Live - Page 13
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Animostas
United States568 Posts
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GhoSt[shield]
Canada2131 Posts
On September 20 2011 08:36 PopcornColonel wrote: Spore crawlers are 75 minerals, and 0 gas. Spore crawlers actual cost goes much higher and deeper than just 75 minerals and 0 gas. Resources used: 2 larva 2 drones (100 minerals) 75 minerals for the evo chamber 75 minerals for the spore. So the real cost of spore crawler detection for zerg is actually 2 larva and 250 minerals, not 75. | ||
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gengka
Malaysia461 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On September 20 2011 13:18 Arisen wrote: What I have to offer is proof that the ghost is extremely cost efficient versus any lategame zerg army to the point where Terrans don't really lose after they get them out in a decent number as well as zerg not having anything that can actually touch them due to cloaking mechanics and sniping overseers as well as the ghost outranging every zerg unit. What is the composition that can go kill them, really? TLO has been using this since GSL 1 (or 2, his first season either way), it's been quite a while...nope, still no answer. Similar arguments could be made for many units if we assume perfect control. On paper, infestors can chain fungal protoss deathballs and kill them without taking a single hit, not even feedbacks reach them with proper fungals. In the actual game however, mistakes happen and units like infestors just like ghosts suddenly get caught by enemy spells and killed by... Any unit in the game really? I just watched Thorzain do ghosts against Haypro on Metalopolis in the MLG tournament, and eventually giving up on them because he just lost too many to fungals/broodlords and couldn't really scratch ultralisks with them. Turned out regular old MMM with heavy drops did a much better job in the end. Besides, using players like TLO as an example isn't really helping your argument. Ghosts are a viable tactic among many at this point, not even the standard for most. Calling for nerfs before they have really even entered the metagame is just a typical knee-jerk reaction from the crowd that seems to think that the only solution for a potentially strong strategy is to make Blizzard nerf it. | ||
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CrumpetGuvnor
Australia302 Posts
On September 20 2011 10:16 Eps wrote: Can you Kill with Mass EMPs? No. Can you Kill with Mass Fungals/Storms? Yes. Players don't Mass up Ghosts and win the game outright with them. They're a support unit and their role is a fine one at that. However people could Chain-Fungal units down and Carpet Storms are a Pain. There's a big difference between the Casters and people aren't content until they're all the same. Can a Toss army run away from a stimmed bioball after being EMP'd? No. Or do you land EMPs and then run away and let their shields recharge. At least terrans can run away from storms and let their medivacs heal them. If the entire toss army is EMPd then it's game over. | ||
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ForbZ
Australia22 Posts
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WinteRR
Australia201 Posts
On September 20 2011 10:57 Arisen wrote: Watch the July vs MVP game on metalopolis (or Thorzain versus Catz or any demuslim game versus zerg). That's why people are saying there's a problem with TvZ. The July MVP game isn't the best example as july made some questionable decisions, but once terran has a sufficient amount of tank/ghost you can't touch them. I did watch that game, and that is what EVERYONE says and it's a completely wrong context. It's basically the same as "Oh you should harass zerg or you lose" - you can't let Terrans have more than 2 bases than you like MVP did. He was in the most comfortable position and he could afford to get a ridiculous amount of ghosts without dying. | ||
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densha
United States797 Posts
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CrumpetGuvnor
Australia302 Posts
On September 20 2011 11:29 Ftrunkz wrote: My point was your post (and this new one) are both INCREDIBLY biased towards your race in literally every way possible and any argument you make about literally anything can be thrown back at you with similar biased logic from any one of the other races point of views. I honestly fail to see any part of my post that spoke less truth than any of your opinions... Hell i'll do it again just for kicks... Well, all my stuff was true, all yours wasn't? Name me a game where the Zerg played well, didn't make any major mistakes and punished a protoss player accordingly if he took 3 bases with equal econ and still lost to a zerg? For every 1 game you give me, I can give you 100 games of zerg rolling a protoss because he had an econ advantage going into lategame and rolled over him with infestor broodlord. That's just the way the matchup works,zerg cripples protoss going into late-game so the protoss cant do anything, so you have to win in the midgame with timing pushes or pray the zerg's a retard. And while I think that reflects poor game design, it's the way things are. So it is perfectly justifiable to nerf the major component to making midgame zerg armies strong versus protoss when protoss have proven to be able to deal with infesotrs fine? As to comparing the ghost to the infestor; I don't know what to say about that. You're wrong, I suppose is the long and short of it. Yeah, if you could fungal growth and NP unhindered, I guess the infestor is on par with the ghost, but you can with broodlord support. broodlords and infestors outrange templar and stalker by a ton, and infestors fungalling negating out Our ability to blink and get under or away from broodlords and Neural is equal range to Collosi, so they can be delt with safely and neural is fantastic versus HT to feedbacking other HT as well. infestors can Hide behind broodslords, meaning you have to suicide a large amount of units just to have a chance at killing, combined with fungalling and running away or just burrowing make them practically untargatable. Sure, you can try to use your mobility to get around the slow zerg army, the only problem is that our most mobile units are all countered by lings which are even more mobile, and since broodlord infestor is a gas heavy combo, ling complement the combo perfectly allowing the zerg to shutdown any sort of harassment easily if he isnt a retard The difference is I can give you a fuckton of examples of people dealing with greedy protosses trying to take a third and getting punished ridiculously hard, whilst you cant give me a lot of examples of people dealing with lategame broodlord infestor (atleast pvz) But seriously, my point isn't that my edit of your posts holds true to what my opinion is, which I think is the part that you're missing, it's that my arguments, that seem so ridiculously stupid and obviously wrong to you, are actually on the same level of biased bullshit as yours are, all I've done is edited a few words to make it reflect the opposite side of the stories view, hence why EVERYONE but other butthurt zerg players will laugh at your post, my edits of your post, and the idea that people can actually be that 1-sided in their approach to sc2. Nonono I don't think you understand. It's his opinion therefore he is correct. | ||
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
On September 20 2011 11:30 Shiori wrote: immortals are not good units. they lose to stimmed marines, are marginally effective against marauders, but represent such a tech diversion that it's not worth it. the warp prism is utterly worthless because we have nothing economical to drop. the only good change is the neural parasite. fungal growth's damage is irrelevant to protoss. the root is the issue. Overstatement? Warp prism+chargelots own zerg tech structures and expos late game. The fungal nerd has a large effect on PvZ. Zerg will have to be much more tenacious about their timings with dropping fungals in order to kill toss units at pre patch rates. See: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267313 And I love using immortals in PvZ. A lot of Zerg go mass roach or roach infestor. How are immortals "not good units" if the Zerg is going roach heavy? | ||
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GoodRamen
United States713 Posts
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AnAngryDingo
United States223 Posts
On September 20 2011 11:19 Shiori wrote: so basically blizzard did nothing to address the ghost, nothing to address pvz in general, and nothing to give protoss harassment options (in fact they nerfed blink, lol). bravo. wut race do u play? | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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donkeykong
Australia20 Posts
So much easier to bust turtling terrans now. The days of T getting free wins with 1:1:1 are over. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On September 20 2011 13:31 Bagi wrote: Similar arguments could be made for many units if we assume perfect control. On paper, infestors can chain fungal protoss deathballs and kill them without taking a single hit, You know, unless he has those one things....colossus, I think they're called. Look, even a lot of terrans admit this is too strong. Yeah, if you're stupid with your ghosts you can lose, but that's a bad argument. If your justification is "I could make a mistake and lose them", that's piss poor. You believe that it's a good thing to have a win condition of if the terran doesn't fuck up he wins and if he does the zerg wins? Infestors actually have pretty short range (and are still getting nerfed to shit even when players have demonstrated clear ways to beat them) compared to the insane range of the ghost and a spell that does massive damage to biological units for a low energy cost. Every zerg unit is biological. It's not like I can spread out my stuff to mitigate the damge like you can with fungal, all your stuff just dies as it approaches. Yeah, ghosts need their spells, but they need to be toned down. | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
![]() Anyway I'm very excited to try mass immortals in team games ![]() | ||
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N1k0
Uruguay1075 Posts
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On September 20 2011 13:42 WinteRR wrote: I did watch that game, and that is what EVERYONE says and it's a completely wrong context. It's basically the same as "Oh you should harass zerg or you lose" - you can't let Terrans have more than 2 bases than you like MVP did. He was in the most comfortable position and he could afford to get a ridiculous amount of ghosts without dying. July was up 2 bases on MVP? | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On September 20 2011 13:56 Arisen wrote: You know, unless he has those one things....colossus, I think they're called. Look, even a lot of terrans admit this is too strong. Yeah, if you're stupid with your ghosts you can lose, but that's a bad argument. If your justification is "I could make a mistake and lose them", that's piss poor. You believe that it's a good thing to have a win condition of if the terran doesn't fuck up he wins and if he does the zerg wins? Infestors actually have pretty short range (and are still getting nerfed to shit even when players have demonstrated clear ways to beat them) compared to the insane range of the ghost and a spell that does massive damage to biological units for a low energy cost. Every zerg unit is biological. It's not like I can spread out my stuff to mitigate the damge like you can with fungal, all your stuff just dies as it approaches. Yeah, ghosts need their spells, but they need to be toned down. Fungal outranges colossi as long as you abuse the AOE, same with feedback. Huge damage? You need 13 snipes to kill an ultralisk. Imagine if he has 5 ultras, thats ONLY 30 supply, you have to snipe AKA manually click 65 times. After that you have to deal with the other 100 supply. Ghosts do NOT counter everything. But anyway, reading your post history in this thread alone makes me think that reasoning with you any further would be a waste of time. So lets just agree to disagree. | ||
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HinagikUx
United States178 Posts
On September 20 2011 08:39 rpgalon wrote: terran avoided a ghost nerf, serious, they got it easy. ^ | ||
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