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SEA Patch 1.4 Live - Page 13

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Animostas
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States568 Posts
September 20 2011 04:21 GMT
#241
Kind of surprised to see the Infestor nerf go through. Not complaining though haha. I do wish that Zerg was a little more versatile in terms of strategies.
GhoSt[shield]
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada2131 Posts
September 20 2011 04:28 GMT
#242
Cool to see the patch is going live and hopefully there is some more feedback on the changes and the cumulative effects on current strategy.

On September 20 2011 08:36 PopcornColonel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 08:28 LagT_T wrote:
50 gas for a detector? Preposterous!

Spore crawlers are 75 minerals, and 0 gas.


Spore crawlers actual cost goes much higher and deeper than just 75 minerals and 0 gas.
Resources used:
2 larva
2 drones (100 minerals)
75 minerals for the evo chamber
75 minerals for the spore.

So the real cost of spore crawler detection for zerg is actually 2 larva and 250 minerals, not 75.

gengka
Profile Joined September 2010
Malaysia461 Posts
September 20 2011 04:29 GMT
#243
time to kiss 1-1-1 goodbye and retrain MMMG hahaha
Make Love Not War
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 04:32:51
September 20 2011 04:31 GMT
#244
On September 20 2011 13:18 Arisen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 13:09 Bagi wrote:
Yeah well, lets get back on the issue when you have more to offer than hearsay. Not to mention zergs haven't even had time to figure out the best counters to ghosts. The situation is hardly developed enough.


What I have to offer is proof that the ghost is extremely cost efficient versus any lategame zerg army to the point where Terrans don't really lose after they get them out in a decent number as well as zerg not having anything that can actually touch them due to cloaking mechanics and sniping overseers as well as the ghost outranging every zerg unit. What is the composition that can go kill them, really? TLO has been using this since GSL 1 (or 2, his first season either way), it's been quite a while...nope, still no answer.

Similar arguments could be made for many units if we assume perfect control. On paper, infestors can chain fungal protoss deathballs and kill them without taking a single hit, not even feedbacks reach them with proper fungals. In the actual game however, mistakes happen and units like infestors just like ghosts suddenly get caught by enemy spells and killed by... Any unit in the game really? I just watched Thorzain do ghosts against Haypro on Metalopolis in the MLG tournament, and eventually giving up on them because he just lost too many to fungals/broodlords and couldn't really scratch ultralisks with them. Turned out regular old MMM with heavy drops did a much better job in the end.

Besides, using players like TLO as an example isn't really helping your argument. Ghosts are a viable tactic among many at this point, not even the standard for most. Calling for nerfs before they have really even entered the metagame is just a typical knee-jerk reaction from the crowd that seems to think that the only solution for a potentially strong strategy is to make Blizzard nerf it.
CrumpetGuvnor
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia302 Posts
September 20 2011 04:34 GMT
#245
On September 20 2011 10:16 Eps wrote:
Can you Kill with Mass EMPs? No. Can you Kill with Mass Fungals/Storms? Yes.
Players don't Mass up Ghosts and win the game outright with them. They're a support unit and their role is a fine one at that. However people could Chain-Fungal units down and Carpet Storms are a Pain.

There's a big difference between the Casters and people aren't content until they're all the same.

Can a Toss army run away from a stimmed bioball after being EMP'd? No. Or do you land EMPs and then run away and let their shields recharge.

At least terrans can run away from storms and let their medivacs heal them. If the entire toss army is EMPd then it's game over.
ForbZ
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia22 Posts
September 20 2011 04:36 GMT
#246
Say hello to 3gate robo immortal pushes :S
SEA GM is awful
WinteRR
Profile Joined May 2011
Australia201 Posts
September 20 2011 04:42 GMT
#247
On September 20 2011 10:57 Arisen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 10:52 WinteRR wrote:
How can people say TvZ has serious balance issues when Z has had a sharp incline in winrate % in Korea since the original FG change? Z finally overtook T in Korea for the first time, things look promising on the Z front in TvZ if you ask me - especially considering the latest T nerfs to hellions and barracks (where most zergs were losing games straight up).


Watch the July vs MVP game on metalopolis (or Thorzain versus Catz or any demuslim game versus zerg). That's why people are saying there's a problem with TvZ. The July MVP game isn't the best example as july made some questionable decisions, but once terran has a sufficient amount of tank/ghost you can't touch them.


I did watch that game, and that is what EVERYONE says and it's a completely wrong context. It's basically the same as "Oh you should harass zerg or you lose" - you can't let Terrans have more than 2 bases than you like MVP did. He was in the most comfortable position and he could afford to get a ridiculous amount of ghosts without dying.
densha
Profile Joined December 2010
United States797 Posts
September 20 2011 04:49 GMT
#248
This patch should be ok, although I'm not sure what to think of ZvT still. Even as a Zerg, I like the fungal nerf a lot because it will take better timing to use it to it's full potential. Overlapping fungals is going to be a costly mistake, and it will be another measure by which we can determine the best Zergs from the rest.
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.
CrumpetGuvnor
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia302 Posts
September 20 2011 04:52 GMT
#249
On September 20 2011 11:29 Ftrunkz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 10:29 Arisen wrote:
On September 20 2011 09:21 Ftrunkz wrote:
On September 20 2011 08:54 Arisen wrote:
Well, ghosts didn't get a nerf, that's super O.o

Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the infestor nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and protoss is still pretty much unbeatable late game - infestors just give a few strong options for midgame. Good players can absolutely deal with infestors and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game phoenix, mothership, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about infestors and not being able to auto win versus zerg on ladder so they nerfed it.

However, the ghost is killing everyfucking thing. Snipe's range is so insane and the ghost is now cheap on gas and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and zerg have and can cloak and snipe obs/overseers to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that zergs and protoss have tried everything and the ghost is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the infestor in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because zerg units are so cost inefficient (baring perhaps the BL). Terrans literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of ghosts in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both hive tech options as well as lair tech units (mutas and infestors get destroyed by snipe- they don't even need to use EMP) and every protoss unit with EMP.

Come on blizzard; please focus on stuff that actually needs attention rather than making changes for casual players :/


This is actually the most "Paper is fine and completely balanced, but for fucks sake rock is OBVIOUSLY a HUGE problem -Scissors" post i've seen in a while, kudos on the balance whine so whiney it actually made me giggle! For a laugh, Imma do the protoss version of what u just said except with the HT a few patches ago (with italics marking the only changes i made!).

Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the High Templar nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and Terran is still Way too strong early-mid game - High Templar just give a few strong options for Protoss lategame. Good players can absolutely deal with High Templar and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game ghosts, battlecruiser, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about High Templar and not being able to auto win versus Protoss on ladder so they nerfed it.

However, the Infestor is killing everyfucking thing. Nerual Parasites range is so insane and the Infestor is Cost effective vs everything and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and terran have and can Burrow and snipe Workers/bases with Infested terrans to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that terran and protoss have tried everything and the Infestor is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the High templar in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because Protoss units are so expensive we need strong AoE to make up for our lack of numbers. Zergs literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of Infestors in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both Stargate options as well as robo tech units (Collosi and immortals get destroyed by Neurals- they don't even need to use fungal) and every terran unit with Fungal Growth.



That was kinda fun :D.




Well, all my stuff was true, all yours wasn't? Name me a game where the protoss played well, didn't make any major mistakes and secured 3 base without huge losses and still lost versus zerg? For every 1 game you give me, I can give you 100 games of protoss rolling a zerg because he didn't have a game winning advantage going into lategame. That's just the way the matchup works, protoss lategame versus zerg is pretty much untouchable, so you have to win in the midgame. And while I think that reflects poor game design, it's the way things are. So why now is it justifiable to nerf the major component to making midgame zerg armies strong versus protoss when protoss have proven to be struggling in every single major tournament as of late.

As to comparing the ghost to the infestor; I don't know what to say about that. You're wrong, I suppose is the long and short of it. Yeah, if you could fungal growth and NP unhindered, I guess the infestor is on par with the ghost, but you can't. Tanks and ghosts outrange infestors by a ton, negating out spellcasters and snipe is equal range to brood lords, so they can be delt with safely and snipe is fantastic versus ultralisks as well. Ghosts can cast every spell cloaked and can snipe mobile detection before they can be targeted so they can remain untargatable. Sure, you can cast IT's burrowed...that does a lot versus a late game army with a ton of splash damage :/ (that is assuming they're bad enough to not have detection anyway, which zerg doesn't have a way of sniping easily...

The difference is I can give you a fuckton of examples of people dealing with infestors, wehre as you can't give me a lot of examples of people dealing with late game ghosts (at least ZvT).


That was kinda fun...



My point was your post (and this new one) are both INCREDIBLY biased towards your race in literally every way possible and any argument you make about literally anything can be thrown back at you with similar biased logic from any one of the other races point of views. I honestly fail to see any part of my post that spoke less truth than any of your opinions... Hell i'll do it again just for kicks...



Well, all my stuff was true, all yours wasn't? Name me a game where the Zerg played well, didn't make any major mistakes and punished a protoss player accordingly if he took 3 bases with equal econ and still lost to a zerg? For every 1 game you give me, I can give you 100 games of zerg rolling a protoss because he had an econ advantage going into lategame and rolled over him with infestor broodlord. That's just the way the matchup works,zerg cripples protoss going into late-game so the protoss cant do anything, so you have to win in the midgame with timing pushes or pray the zerg's a retard. And while I think that reflects poor game design, it's the way things are. So it is perfectly justifiable to nerf the major component to making midgame zerg armies strong versus protoss when protoss have proven to be able to deal with infesotrs fine?

As to comparing the ghost to the infestor; I don't know what to say about that. You're wrong, I suppose is the long and short of it. Yeah, if you could fungal growth and NP unhindered, I guess the infestor is on par with the ghost, but you can with broodlord support. broodlords and infestors outrange templar and stalker by a ton, and infestors fungalling negating out Our ability to blink and get under or away from broodlords and Neural is equal range to Collosi, so they can be delt with safely and neural is fantastic versus HT to feedbacking other HT as well. infestors can Hide behind broodslords, meaning you have to suicide a large amount of units just to have a chance at killing, combined with fungalling and running away or just burrowing make them practically untargatable. Sure, you can try to use your mobility to get around the slow zerg army, the only problem is that our most mobile units are all countered by lings which are even more mobile, and since broodlord infestor is a gas heavy combo, ling complement the combo perfectly allowing the zerg to shutdown any sort of harassment easily if he isnt a retard

The difference is I can give you a fuckton of examples of people dealing with greedy protosses trying to take a third and getting punished ridiculously hard, whilst you cant give me a lot of examples of people dealing with lategame broodlord infestor (atleast pvz)





But seriously, my point isn't that my edit of your posts holds true to what my opinion is, which I think is the part that you're missing, it's that my arguments, that seem so ridiculously stupid and obviously wrong to you, are actually on the same level of biased bullshit as yours are, all I've done is edited a few words to make it reflect the opposite side of the stories view, hence why EVERYONE but other butthurt zerg players will laugh at your post, my edits of your post, and the idea that people can actually be that 1-sided in their approach to sc2.

Nonono I don't think you understand. It's his opinion therefore he is correct.
skatbone
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1005 Posts
September 20 2011 04:53 GMT
#250
On September 20 2011 11:30 Shiori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 11:24 Bagi wrote:
On September 20 2011 11:19 Shiori wrote:
so basically blizzard did nothing to address the ghost, nothing to address pvz in general, and nothing to give protoss harassment options (in fact they nerfed blink, lol). bravo.

Buffed immortal should help against terran in general, infestor had 2 of its spells nerfed which should help PvZ, they gave the warp prism a huge amount of extra health which is pretty much all they can do to help protoss harass without adding new units.

Bravo for making such an informed post though.

immortals are not good units. they lose to stimmed marines, are marginally effective against marauders, but represent such a tech diversion that it's not worth it. the warp prism is utterly worthless because we have nothing economical to drop. the only good change is the neural parasite. fungal growth's damage is irrelevant to protoss. the root is the issue.


Overstatement?

Warp prism+chargelots own zerg tech structures and expos late game.

The fungal nerd has a large effect on PvZ. Zerg will have to be much more tenacious about their timings with dropping fungals in order to kill toss units at pre patch rates.

See: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267313

And I love using immortals in PvZ. A lot of Zerg go mass roach or roach infestor. How are immortals "not good units" if the Zerg is going roach heavy?
Mercurial#1193
GoodRamen
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States713 Posts
September 20 2011 04:54 GMT
#251
cool but i thought this was patch 1.4?
#1 Fantasy Fan!!!!
AnAngryDingo
Profile Joined August 2010
United States223 Posts
September 20 2011 04:54 GMT
#252
On September 20 2011 11:19 Shiori wrote:
so basically blizzard did nothing to address the ghost, nothing to address pvz in general, and nothing to give protoss harassment options (in fact they nerfed blink, lol). bravo.



wut race do u play?
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
September 20 2011 04:55 GMT
#253
Should be interesting. Protoss can be in more than one place at once and warp-in mechanic offensively matters beyond the early game! :D
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
donkeykong
Profile Joined July 2010
Australia20 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 04:57:07
September 20 2011 04:56 GMT
#254
Immortals are back in action.

So much easier to bust turtling terrans now. The days of T getting free wins with 1:1:1 are over.
Arisen
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2382 Posts
September 20 2011 04:56 GMT
#255
On September 20 2011 13:31 Bagi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 13:18 Arisen wrote:
On September 20 2011 13:09 Bagi wrote:
Yeah well, lets get back on the issue when you have more to offer than hearsay. Not to mention zergs haven't even had time to figure out the best counters to ghosts. The situation is hardly developed enough.


What I have to offer is proof that the ghost is extremely cost efficient versus any lategame zerg army to the point where Terrans don't really lose after they get them out in a decent number as well as zerg not having anything that can actually touch them due to cloaking mechanics and sniping overseers as well as the ghost outranging every zerg unit. What is the composition that can go kill them, really? TLO has been using this since GSL 1 (or 2, his first season either way), it's been quite a while...nope, still no answer.

Similar arguments could be made for many units if we assume perfect control. On paper, infestors can chain fungal protoss deathballs and kill them without taking a single hit,


You know, unless he has those one things....colossus, I think they're called.

Look, even a lot of terrans admit this is too strong. Yeah, if you're stupid with your ghosts you can lose, but that's a bad argument. If your justification is "I could make a mistake and lose them", that's piss poor. You believe that it's a good thing to have a win condition of if the terran doesn't fuck up he wins and if he does the zerg wins? Infestors actually have pretty short range (and are still getting nerfed to shit even when players have demonstrated clear ways to beat them) compared to the insane range of the ghost and a spell that does massive damage to biological units for a low energy cost. Every zerg unit is biological. It's not like I can spread out my stuff to mitigate the damge like you can with fungal, all your stuff just dies as it approaches. Yeah, ghosts need their spells, but they need to be toned down.
"If you're not angry, you're not paying attention"
bokeevboke
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Singapore1674 Posts
September 20 2011 04:56 GMT
#256
As always, EU is last one to be patched

Anyway I'm very excited to try mass immortals in team games
Its grack
N1k0
Profile Joined June 2011
Uruguay1075 Posts
September 20 2011 04:58 GMT
#257
The Dark age of ZvP is back...
Arisen
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2382 Posts
September 20 2011 04:58 GMT
#258
On September 20 2011 13:42 WinteRR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 10:57 Arisen wrote:
On September 20 2011 10:52 WinteRR wrote:
How can people say TvZ has serious balance issues when Z has had a sharp incline in winrate % in Korea since the original FG change? Z finally overtook T in Korea for the first time, things look promising on the Z front in TvZ if you ask me - especially considering the latest T nerfs to hellions and barracks (where most zergs were losing games straight up).


Watch the July vs MVP game on metalopolis (or Thorzain versus Catz or any demuslim game versus zerg). That's why people are saying there's a problem with TvZ. The July MVP game isn't the best example as july made some questionable decisions, but once terran has a sufficient amount of tank/ghost you can't touch them.


I did watch that game, and that is what EVERYONE says and it's a completely wrong context. It's basically the same as "Oh you should harass zerg or you lose" - you can't let Terrans have more than 2 bases than you like MVP did. He was in the most comfortable position and he could afford to get a ridiculous amount of ghosts without dying.


July was up 2 bases on MVP?
"If you're not angry, you're not paying attention"
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 05:05:58
September 20 2011 05:03 GMT
#259
On September 20 2011 13:56 Arisen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 13:31 Bagi wrote:
On September 20 2011 13:18 Arisen wrote:
On September 20 2011 13:09 Bagi wrote:
Yeah well, lets get back on the issue when you have more to offer than hearsay. Not to mention zergs haven't even had time to figure out the best counters to ghosts. The situation is hardly developed enough.


What I have to offer is proof that the ghost is extremely cost efficient versus any lategame zerg army to the point where Terrans don't really lose after they get them out in a decent number as well as zerg not having anything that can actually touch them due to cloaking mechanics and sniping overseers as well as the ghost outranging every zerg unit. What is the composition that can go kill them, really? TLO has been using this since GSL 1 (or 2, his first season either way), it's been quite a while...nope, still no answer.

Similar arguments could be made for many units if we assume perfect control. On paper, infestors can chain fungal protoss deathballs and kill them without taking a single hit,


You know, unless he has those one things....colossus, I think they're called.

Look, even a lot of terrans admit this is too strong. Yeah, if you're stupid with your ghosts you can lose, but that's a bad argument. If your justification is "I could make a mistake and lose them", that's piss poor. You believe that it's a good thing to have a win condition of if the terran doesn't fuck up he wins and if he does the zerg wins? Infestors actually have pretty short range (and are still getting nerfed to shit even when players have demonstrated clear ways to beat them) compared to the insane range of the ghost and a spell that does massive damage to biological units for a low energy cost. Every zerg unit is biological. It's not like I can spread out my stuff to mitigate the damge like you can with fungal, all your stuff just dies as it approaches. Yeah, ghosts need their spells, but they need to be toned down.

Fungal outranges colossi as long as you abuse the AOE, same with feedback.

Huge damage? You need 13 snipes to kill an ultralisk. Imagine if he has 5 ultras, thats ONLY 30 supply, you have to snipe AKA manually click 65 times. After that you have to deal with the other 100 supply. Ghosts do NOT counter everything.

But anyway, reading your post history in this thread alone makes me think that reasoning with you any further would be a waste of time. So lets just agree to disagree.
HinagikUx
Profile Joined January 2011
United States178 Posts
September 20 2011 05:10 GMT
#260
On September 20 2011 08:39 rpgalon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 08:32 Golgotha wrote:
Terran got nerfed hard. feel real bad for them. zerg is meh, and Toss came up the winner of this patch.


terran avoided a ghost nerf, serious, they got it easy.

^
uGpTaiga/HinagikUx NA Server
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