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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
But since it was MVP and terran, one single game is enough to call a unit imbalanced. Amazing. On September 20 2011 12:52 armada[sb] wrote: I really wish they would just make EMP range 9 and target specific units instead of aoe, what problems would arise from this? Well, terran would never beat a lategame protoss army in a straight up fight for starters. | ||
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vandelayindustries
United States290 Posts
On September 20 2011 12:52 armada[sb] wrote: I really wish they would just make EMP range 9 and target specific units instead of aoe, what problems would arise from this? I'd like an explanation of this as well—why is it necessary for EMP to be AOE but feedback must target single units? Genuinely curious. | ||
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
On September 20 2011 10:11 cheesemaster wrote: I watch alot of pro games, and i rarely see neural parasite being used to great effect at the highest level (losira in the AOL games thats about it) i honestly dont think its gonna change much, you can still neural and collosus were still in range before to target them down and they will be in range but just slightly closer now. Its not like we really saw neural being implemented that much at the highest level, give me another example besides losira in his arena of legends game where neural was being used to a large extent to counter collosus. I cant really think of any even. Imo, good infestor use in ZvP is one of the few areas where non-Koreans have been metagame- innovators over the last few months. I'm not a big Destiny fan, but we now see Koreans doing 2-base infested Terran aggression in ZvP. Many other threads have comments suggesting that toss has been getting rolled in Korea before the stage of the game when the infestors come out. GSL Code A Round of 32 Day 1 contained a lot of infestor usage in ZvPm including neural on colossus (with mixed success). tl;dr While I think the game should be balanced around the higher levels, that doesn't mean that innovation always happens, first, at these highest levels. I believe it was Puma who admitted to tweaking a strategy that he gleaned from a lower-league player. I think the Koreans have actually been behind the curve in recognizing the full potential of the infestor in ZvP. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
I expect the server to go down again later for them to fix it, and/or the change to be made before it goes live on the real servers. | ||
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Emreis
9 Posts
On September 20 2011 12:53 vandelayindustries wrote: I'd like an explanation of this as well—why is it necessary for EMP to be AOE but feedback must target single units? Genuinely curious. The explanation you will probably hear is that feedback deals damage. Which of course is nonsense too, because most energy using units are as good as dead without it. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On September 20 2011 12:53 vandelayindustries wrote: I'd like an explanation of this as well—why is it necessary for EMP to be AOE but feedback must target single units? Genuinely curious. Why does snipe have to be single target and only work on biological units, when storm is an AOE that hurts everything? Different spells work differently. Good EMP's are actually a requirement for terran to stand up to the protoss army in the lategame. Anyone who truly thinks single-target EMP would balance the match-up should tell what league and race they play in. | ||
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shawster
Canada2485 Posts
On September 20 2011 12:52 armada[sb] wrote: I really wish they would just make EMP range 9 and target specific units instead of aoe, what problems would arise from this? tvp is so retarded right now. it's like terran are like 70-30 against protoss until collosus/ht kick in. then it's like 55-45/60-40 for terran. then when archon + collosus + ht kick in t can't win anymore. doing that wouldn't help. | ||
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Grndr101
Belgium125 Posts
Also the hellion nerf will change tvt a lot, since you now almost won't be able to stop a marine-tank-viking/medevac push while opening blue flame. And opening blue flame just used to be the safe build in going mech. On September 20 2011 12:37 Arisen wrote: Dude, come on. The ghost is the best unit in the game. It has a AoE that kills energy/protoss shields and has a cheap spell that destroys all zerg units incredibly fast at an extremely high range (equal or greater to every zerg unit) and now it doesn't cost very much gas. That's not to take into account late game nuke harass and the fact that they can snipe the other races mobile detection to make them invulnerable as long as they have energy. Yeah, Terran probably needs the ghost to deal late game, but in its current incarnation, even quite a few terran players admit it's too strong. It is literally good against every single unit the protoss and zerg have with little to no drawback (super long range, cheap, fast and easy to get) The ghost builds very slowly, and to be effective vs zerg T3 you need a ton of them(not just 5-8). Marauders are still an equally sound response to ultras and you still need vikings to deal the real damage vs ling/infestor/broodlord comp. And when you take into account the zerg's ability to remax quickly(even more now with the ultra change), the energy to snipe often just doesn't build up quickly enough to defend a well executed 300 food push. I'm just thinking that the recent success with ghosts we've seen were in matchups where the player who lost wasn't a favorite anyway. Anyway take my comments with a grain of salt, it's just my idea on the matter. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On September 20 2011 12:52 Bagi wrote: I love that zergs are actually complaining about ghosts after 1 high profile game they won against zerg. Its like 45 damage for 25 energy, manually casted, is suddenly the most overpowered thing in the world. Imagine if it was Nestea owning entire armies with smart fungals and infested terrans, would anyone have made a single balance complaint? But since it was MVP and terran, one single game is enough to call a unit imbalanced. Amazing. That is until you realize that a lot of people use it and don't lose late game TvZ. Thorzain and demuslim for example. July vs MVP was just the first GSL code S match that showed heavy use of snipe, but Terrans have been raping zergs with this for awhile. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
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Zaurus
Singapore676 Posts
On September 20 2011 12:52 Bagi wrote: I love that zergs are actually complaining about ghosts after 1 high profile game they won against zerg. Its like 45 damage for 25 energy, manually casted, is suddenly the most overpowered thing in the world. Imagine if it was Nestea owning entire armies with smart fungals and infested terrans, would anyone have made a single balance complaint? But since it was MVP and terran, one single game is enough to call a unit imbalanced. Amazing. Well, terran would never beat a lategame protoss army in a straight up fight for starters. are you serious? do u know that a fully upgraded TvP 200 vs 200, Terran MMMG will own whatever protoss has to offer if 0 storms go off? And most of the time, terran will completely EMP all the templars and continue to EMP the rest of the army to make the battle even more one sided? I doubt you watch enough TvP | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On September 20 2011 13:00 Grndr101 wrote: The ghost builds very slowly, and to be effective vs zerg T3 you need a ton of them(not just 5-8). Marauders are still an equally sound response to ultras and you still need vikings to deal the real damage vs ling/infestor/broodlord comp. And when you take into account the zerg's ability to remax quickly(even more now with the ultra change), the energy to snipe often just doesn't build up quickly enough to defend a well executed 300 food push. I'm just thinking that the recent success with ghosts we've seen were in matchups where the player who lost wasn't a favorite anyway. Anyway take my comments with a grain of salt, it's just my idea on the matter. The ghost does not train very slowly. Also, you can make 0 vikings and still destroy BL infestor ling. ghosts have the same range and kill brood lords very fast (while being cloaked), vast range with emp over infestors, and can just snipe the infestors anyway. the lings are dealt with by your tanks/marines. | ||
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ESKiLL
United States26 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On September 20 2011 13:02 Zaurus wrote: are you serious? do u know that a fully upgraded TvP 200 vs 200, Terran MMMG will own whatever protoss has to offer if 0 storms go off? And most of the time, terran will completely EMP all the templars and continue to EMP the rest of the army to make the battle even more one sided? I doubt you watch enough TvP Even when 0 storms go off, MMM/viking against chargelot/archon/colossi depends on micro and positioning. If a single storm goes off due to HT being in WP or such, you're already at a disadvantage as the terran. Trust me, its not nearly as one-sided as you believe. On September 20 2011 13:01 Arisen wrote: That is until you realize that a lot of people use it and don't lose late game TvZ. Thorzain and demuslim for example. July vs MVP was just the first GSL code S match that showed heavy use of snipe, but Terrans have been raping zergs with this for awhile. Yeah well, lets get back on the issue when you have more to offer than hearsay. Not to mention zergs haven't even had time to figure out the best counters to ghosts. The situation is hardly developed enough. | ||
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VenerableSpace
United States463 Posts
On September 20 2011 12:56 Emreis wrote: The explanation you will probably hear is that feedback deals damage. Which of course is nonsense too, because most energy using units are as good as dead without it. shields are damage too btw. | ||
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DjRetro
Chile309 Posts
On September 20 2011 13:07 ESKiLL wrote: the title says 1.04 lol... plz change to 1.4 He can't change, he said it previously t.t | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On September 20 2011 09:21 Ftrunkz wrote: + Show Spoiler + This is actually the most "Paper is fine and completely balanced, but for fucks sake rock is OBVIOUSLY a HUGE problem -Scissors" post i've seen in a while, kudos on the balance whine so whiney it actually made me giggle! For a laugh, Imma do the protoss version of what u just said except with the HT a few patches ago (with italics marking the only changes i made!). Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the High Templar nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and Terran is still Way too strong early-mid game - High Templar just give a few strong options for Protoss lategame. Good players can absolutely deal with High Templar and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game ghosts, battlecruiser, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about High Templar and not being able to auto win versus Protoss on ladder so they nerfed it. However, the Infestor is killing everyfucking thing. Nerual Parasites range is so insane and the Infestor is Cost effective vs everything and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and terran have and can Burrow and snipe Workers/bases with Infested terrans to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that terran and protoss have tried everything and the Infestor is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the High templar in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because Protoss units are so expensive we need strong AoE to make up for our lack of numbers. Zergs literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of Infestors in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both Stargate options as well as robo tech units (Collosi and immortals get destroyed by Neurals- they don't even need to use fungal) and every terran unit with Fungal Growth. That was kinda fun :D. Holy shit I think you just won the thread  !!Im excited for the changes since I was getting tired of vsing infestors all the time in zvz and tvz, and I'm also excited to see hellions in TvT or ZvT as much ^____^. Though I'm sure the reactor hellion expand build should still remain strong despite the 5 second rax build time increase. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On September 20 2011 13:09 Bagi wrote: Yeah well, lets get back on the issue when you have more to offer than hearsay. Not to mention zergs haven't even had time to figure out the best counters to ghosts. The situation is hardly developed enough. What I have to offer is proof that the ghost is extremely cost efficient versus any lategame zerg army to the point where Terrans don't really lose after they get them out in a decent number as well as zerg not having anything that can actually touch them due to cloaking mechanics and sniping overseers as well as the ghost outranging every zerg unit. What is the composition that can go kill them, really? TLO has been using this since GSL 1 (or 2, his first season either way), it's been quite a while...nope, still no answer. | ||
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Alpino
Brazil4390 Posts
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Welmu
Finland3295 Posts
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