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On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote:I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build. Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote:Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda  this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss. Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down.
DRG still lost the hatch. And 1 out of a thousand cases you could find only 1 that somehow manage to come back in the game cuz that guy is a ZvT specialist ? lol, some dude fucked up and forget to research siege mode as 1/1/1 vs Protoss, and protoss won. Do you consider that's how you solve the problem?
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Fairly useless patch as far as TVP is concerned. Slight relief from 1-1-1
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On September 20 2011 08:27 GGzerG wrote:
Well it is official, time to switch to Protoss. I agree with the overseer , ultralisk and fungal change, but the neural parasite change is really going to make late game really hard for zerg I think...Like when the map gets cut in half... T_T
I watch alot of pro games, and i rarely see neural parasite being used to great effect at the highest level (losira in the AOL games thats about it) i honestly dont think its gonna change much, you can still neural and collosus were still in range before to target them down and they will be in range but just slightly closer now.
Its not like we really saw neural being implemented that much at the highest level, give me another example besides losira in his arena of legends game where neural was being used to a large extent to counter collosus. I cant really think of any even.
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On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote:I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build. Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote:Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss. Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down.
Lol terrible comparison. Ghosts have needed a nerf for a long time now, Marauders is a unit low level players complain about. It's not even about how much whining there is about a unit, you just have to look at all the things a ghost can do to realize it's way to good.
It also makes Terran micro so easy compared to Protoss that goes for a HT based army. Nah the ghost nerf is coming, I'm 100% sure of it.
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On September 20 2011 09:48 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 09:44 Eishi_Ki wrote:On September 20 2011 09:41 EliteReplay wrote:On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote:I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build. On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote:Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss. Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down. Marauders are good too... wait what units of terran sucks? Ummmmmmm..... Reapers are about as close as you'll get I think, and they can still fuck shit up. On September 20 2011 09:42 Dalavita wrote:On September 20 2011 09:41 EliteReplay wrote:On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote:I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build. On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote:Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss. Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down. Marauders are good too... wait what units of terran sucks? None, as is intended. Why would there ever be a sucky unit in a competitive multiplayer game ever? (also reapers are pretty shitty, and BC's aren't that good outside of TvT) My point is. Just because people are bitching about unit X, which once upon a time was the marauder, won't necessarily mean it'll get nerfed. People will learn to deal with ghosts eventually, just like they did with marauders. Carriers? Mothership? Phoenixes? Corrupters? Hydras? You play Terran, dontcha! Reading comprehension? Stating which units suck or not has nothing to do with my point. Also, Phoenixes and Corruptors are fine, sorry. Again: My point was "None, as is intended. Why would there ever be a sucky unit in a competitive multiplayer game ever?" ANSWER THIS, rather making a shitty list about which unit from which race sucks, which is entirely pointless. Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 09:46 rpgalon wrote:
just like they did with HT and KA.... I'll argue that the KA removal was because KA was badly designed in combination with warp-ins, but you seemed to miss my point. There's a possibility ghosts could get nerfed. My point is that you shouldn't expect it just because people are whining about it.
Oh, I don't deny there's no point in implementing a useless unit into a game, just pointing out that each of the other races does have useless units (opinions being discounted).
In fact, now that I'm thinking about it, every race in BW had its useless units (or very very niche) such as Scouts and DAs, Ghosts and BCs and Queens and Devourers.
In fact, we could take this further into other games as well. I played RA2 competitively (lol), Rocketeers, Soviet Attack Dogs, Spys, Dreadnoughts. Choose your game and I'm quite confident it would have had units which were underutilised due to their limited role or underpowered ability.
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose. And to boot, they all deal not too bad damage either (hell, even the air superiority fighter (which is better than all other AA fighters) can land and contribute to the ground attack). You can pure bio, pure mech, pure air or do a lovely mix of all three and if that doesn't work, no problem, switch your infrastructure around a bit and voila, an entirely new tech tree.
It's well known Terran has a vast number of options available to it in comparison to Protoss and especially Zerg. The point is that whilst it's very nice that Terran has all these useful units, that same ideology of game design has not been shared with P and Z in SC2. To get to the amazing state of what BW is (and SC2 strives to be), all three races must be equal not only in terms of winning statistics, but also strategy diversity.
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Can you Kill with Mass EMPs? No. Can you Kill with Mass Fungals/Storms? Yes.
Players don't Mass up Ghosts and win the game outright with them. They're a support unit and their role is a fine one at that. However people could Chain-Fungal units down and Carpet Storms are a Pain.
There's a big difference between the Casters and people aren't content until they're all the same.
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On September 20 2011 10:14 Eishi_Ki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 09:48 Dalavita wrote:On September 20 2011 09:44 Eishi_Ki wrote:On September 20 2011 09:41 EliteReplay wrote:On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote:I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build. On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote:Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss. Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down. Marauders are good too... wait what units of terran sucks? Ummmmmmm..... Reapers are about as close as you'll get I think, and they can still fuck shit up. On September 20 2011 09:42 Dalavita wrote:On September 20 2011 09:41 EliteReplay wrote:On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote:I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build. On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote:Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss. Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down. Marauders are good too... wait what units of terran sucks? None, as is intended. Why would there ever be a sucky unit in a competitive multiplayer game ever? (also reapers are pretty shitty, and BC's aren't that good outside of TvT) My point is. Just because people are bitching about unit X, which once upon a time was the marauder, won't necessarily mean it'll get nerfed. People will learn to deal with ghosts eventually, just like they did with marauders. Carriers? Mothership? Phoenixes? Corrupters? Hydras? You play Terran, dontcha! Reading comprehension? Stating which units suck or not has nothing to do with my point. Also, Phoenixes and Corruptors are fine, sorry. Again: My point was "None, as is intended. Why would there ever be a sucky unit in a competitive multiplayer game ever?" ANSWER THIS, rather making a shitty list about which unit from which race sucks, which is entirely pointless. On September 20 2011 09:46 rpgalon wrote:
just like they did with HT and KA.... I'll argue that the KA removal was because KA was badly designed in combination with warp-ins, but you seemed to miss my point. There's a possibility ghosts could get nerfed. My point is that you shouldn't expect it just because people are whining about it. Oh, I don't deny there's no point in implementing a useless unit into a game, just pointing out that each of the other races does have useless units (opinions being discounted). In fact, now that I'm thinking about it, every race in BW had its useless units (or very very niche) such as Scouts and DAs, Ghosts and BCs and Queens and Devourers. In fact, we could take this further into other games as well. I played RA2 competitively (lol), Rocketeers, Soviet Attack Dogs, Spys, Dreadnoughts. Choose your game and I'm quite confident it would have had units which were underutilised due to their limited role or underpowered ability. SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose. And to boot, they all deal not too bad damage either (hell, even the air superiority fighter (which is better than all other AA fighters) can land and contribute to the ground attack). You can pure bio, pure mech, pure air or do a lovely mix of all three and if that doesn't work, no problem, switch your infrastructure around a bit and voila, an entirely new tech tree. It's well known Terran has a vast number of options available to it in comparison to Protoss and especially Zerg. The point is that whilst it's very nice that Terran has all these useful units, that same ideology of game design has not been shared with P and Z in SC2. To get to the amazing state of what BW is (and SC2 strives to be), all three races must be equal not only in terms of winning statistics, but also strategy diversity.
agree 100% with everything said.
terran is powerful because they have options. zerg and protoss are rigid and limited in what they can do. it's a core game flaw. i dont think it'll be fixed until all the expansions are out.
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On September 20 2011 10:07 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote:I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build. On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote:Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss. Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down. DRG still lost the hatch. And 1 out of a thousand cases you could find only 1 that somehow manage to come back in the game cuz that guy is a ZvT specialist ? lol, some dude fucked up and forget to research siege mode as 1/1/1 vs Protoss, and protoss won. Do you consider that's how you solve the problem?
I don't recall if DRG lost the hatch or not, thinking about the Tal'Darim altar game. I'm fairly sure he didn't... I think you're thinking of MLG, and even then he did fine. Also saying that he held it because he's a ZvT specialist is pretty stupid. It's not that hard to hold and him showing how to do it gives other zergs the tools to do the same thing. Not like he was the only zerg holding the 2rax to begin with.
On September 20 2011 10:12 Benzzro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote:I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build. On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote:Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss. Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down. Lol terrible comparison. Ghosts have needed a nerf for a long time now, Marauders is a unit low level players complain about. It's not even about how much whining there is about a unit, you just have to look at all the things a ghost can do to realize it's way to good. It also makes Terran micro so easy compared to Protoss that goes for a HT based army. Nah the ghost nerf is coming, I'm 100% sure of it.
Not a terrible comparison, sorry. And I like your "Ghosts have needed a nerf for a long time now" argument. Care to back it up with anything whatsoever? That sounds suspiciously like the marauder whine.
"You just have to look at all the things a ghost can do to realize it's way to good."
No, seriously, no. Every single person looking at a unit will come to different conclusions, so that argument doesn't hold any water whatsoever.
I'm going to be laughing so hard if a ghost nerf doesn't end up coming, just like the marauder nerf, and the mule nerf.
On September 20 2011 10:14 Eishi_Ki wrote:
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose. And to boot, they all deal not too bad damage either (hell, even the air superiority fighter (which is better than all other AA fighters) can land and contribute to the ground attack). You can pure bio, pure mech, pure air or do a lovely mix of all three and if that doesn't work, no problem, switch your infrastructure around a bit and voila, an entirely new tech tree.
It's well known Terran has a vast number of options available to it in comparison to Protoss and especially Zerg. The point is that whilst it's very nice that Terran has all these useful units, that same ideology of game design has not been shared with P and Z in SC2. To get to the amazing state of what BW is (and SC2 strives to be), all three races must be equal not only in terms of winning statistics, but also strategy diversity.
What you said about all terran units being good, and that is how it should be is exactly my point, so I still don't see why you quoted me. And yes, I believe protoss and zerg need better tools to become more interesting as a race.
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On September 20 2011 08:32 Gheed wrote:
Is this legit? Can't wait to see how the changes will affect upcoming games given it seemed like a kind of sudden release.
wut? I've been playing the PTR for quiet a long time now.
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You might want to put the sundry gameplay changes in as well:
Protoss
-Sentry Guardian Shield now correctly reduces damage from Hellion, Void ray, and Colossus attacks as well as the Siege Tank's sieged attack.
-Fixed an issue where Colossus thermal lance beams would track a unit much further than the range of the weapon.
-Fixed an issue where workers would not path around Force Field while harvesting.
Terran
-The Command Center Load SCV command will now only ask to load as many SCVs as it can contain.
-SCVs will now always face the building when resuming construction.
-SCVs can no longer repair themselves while inside a Bunker or Medivac.
-Fixed an issue where the Reaper could get stuck in some cases.
Zerg
Overseer & Brood Lord cocoons can now display waypoint lines when issuing queued patrol orders.
-Baneling's Attack Structure ability is now a toggle to Enable/Disable Attack Structure. The toggle will determine whether structures are valid targets for auto-attack. This change fixes an issue which caused Banelings to prioritize buildings over hostile units.
-Burrowed units are no longer cloaked by the Mothership, as this is redundant.
-Attack upgrades are now retained by units controlled by Neural Parasite.
-If a unit provides power, that power is temporarily transferred to a player using Neural Parasite.
-Canceling more than one of the same structure at the same time as Zerg will add all Drones to the selection.
-Improved Larva placement when the bottom edge of a hatchery is on a cliff edge to prevent Larva from getting killed.
-Spore Crawlers and Spine Crawlers now disable their Stop button when rooting.
-Fixed an issue where Drone attacks could be more easily dodged than SCV or Probes.
-Fixed an issue where Broodlords on the high ground were not revealed when attacking enemy units on the low ground.
I italicized the ones that should actually have a pretty significant change on gameplay.
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On September 20 2011 09:07 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 09:05 sickoota wrote:
No TvP changes except a slight ease to a couple 1/1/1 variations. Useless patch.. I don't think you understand. 6 range Immortals are going to be amazing. Dare I say it? I think they'll be borderline OP. But hey, that's good for me.
The marines will still do pretty well against them. And you try dropping them to pick off the tanks(Sorta like Shuttle Micro), Terran will just replace Banshees with Vikings. But, hey time will tell. Hopefully this does fix the issue. But, I wouldn't get my hope up.
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Ah, wow, they went through with a mech nerf. They really need to make armories cheaper, at this rate they'll nerf tanks again or have some patch note next to the tank icon saying "use marauder instead."
I do not understand browder's obsession with making Terran need to play in a 1A marauder ball fashion. I understand there's a chip on his shoulder because of "cnc tank spam" and because this is "not brood war" but positional tank play is always 10x better than herp de derp marauder spam.
Zerg players are still laughing all the way to the bank. Sure, neural was nerfed, but mass infested terrans and infestor + broodlord remains the same strengh as last patch lol...
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On September 20 2011 09:21 Ftrunkz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 08:54 Arisen wrote:
Well, ghosts didn't get a nerf, that's super O.o
Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the infestor nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and protoss is still pretty much unbeatable late game - infestors just give a few strong options for midgame. Good players can absolutely deal with infestors and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game phoenix, mothership, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about infestors and not being able to auto win versus zerg on ladder so they nerfed it.
However, the ghost is killing everyfucking thing. Snipe's range is so insane and the ghost is now cheap on gas and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and zerg have and can cloak and snipe obs/overseers to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that zergs and protoss have tried everything and the ghost is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the infestor in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because zerg units are so cost inefficient (baring perhaps the BL). Terrans literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of ghosts in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both hive tech options as well as lair tech units (mutas and infestors get destroyed by snipe- they don't even need to use EMP) and every protoss unit with EMP.
Come on blizzard; please focus on stuff that actually needs attention rather than making changes for casual players :/ This is actually the most "Paper is fine and completely balanced, but for fucks sake rock is OBVIOUSLY a HUGE problem -Scissors" post i've seen in a while, kudos on the balance whine so whiney it actually made me giggle! For a laugh, Imma do the protoss version of what u just said except with the HT a few patches ago (with italics marking the only changes i made!). Blizzard needs to stop pandering to people who can't play well with shit like the High Templar nerf. Yeah, they're strong, but people are doing the same shit they've always done and Terran is still Way too strong early-mid game - High Templar just give a few strong options for Protoss lategame. Good players can absolutely deal with High Templar and weren't even doing a lot of the best stuff (late game ghosts, battlecruiser, etc) against them. Blizzard just heard a ton of complaints from bad players who weren't doing anything about High Templar and not being able to auto win versus Protoss on ladder so they nerfed it. However, the Infestor is killing everyfucking thing. Nerual Parasites range is so insane and the Infestor is Cost effective vs everything and is pretty much the best unit in the game against every single unit the protoss and terran have and can Burrow and snipe Workers/bases with Infested terrans to make them untargatable. Im not going to claim that terran and protoss have tried everything and the Infestor is completely imbalanced, but come on, how is a unit being that strong while rest of the race is so strong justified? Maybe the High templar in a bubble is too strong, but the they need to be that strong because Protoss units are so expensive we need strong AoE to make up for our lack of numbers. Zergs literally don't have a reason not to get a lot of Infestors in any game as it's the most cost efficient unit against both Stargate options as well as robo tech units ( Collosi and immortals get destroyed by Neurals- they don't even need to use fungal) and every terran unit with Fungal Growth. That was kinda fun :D.
Well, all my stuff was true, all yours wasn't? Name me a game where the protoss played well, didn't make any major mistakes and secured 3 base without huge losses and still lost versus zerg? For every 1 game you give me, I can give you 100 games of protoss rolling a zerg because he didn't have a game winning advantage going into lategame. That's just the way the matchup works, protoss lategame versus zerg is pretty much untouchable, so you have to win in the midgame. And while I think that reflects poor game design, it's the way things are. So why now is it justifiable to nerf the major component to making midgame zerg armies strong versus protoss when protoss have proven to be able to deal with infesotrs fine?
As to comparing the ghost to the infestor; I don't know what to say about that. You're wrong, I suppose is the long and short of it. Yeah, if you could fungal growth and NP unhindered, I guess the infestor is on par with the ghost, but you can't. Tanks and ghosts outrange infestors by a ton, negating out spellcasters and snipe is equal range to brood lords, so they can be delt with safely and snipe is fantastic versus ultralisks as well. Ghosts can cast every spell cloaked and can snipe mobile detection before they can be targeted so they can remain untargatable. Sure, you can cast IT's burrowed...that does a lot versus a late game army with a ton of splash damage :/ (that is assuming they're bad enough to not have detection anyway, which zerg doesn't have a way of sniping easily...
The difference is I can give you a fuckton of examples of people dealing with infestors, wehre as you can't give me a lot of examples of people dealing with late game ghosts (at least ZvT).
That was kinda fun...
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On September 20 2011 10:16 Eps wrote:
Can you Kill with Mass EMPs? No. Can you Kill with Mass Fungals/Storms? Yes.
Players don't Mass up Ghosts and win the game outright with them. They're a support unit and their role is a fine one at that. However people could Chain-Fungal units down and Carpet Storms are a Pain.
There's a big difference between the Casters and people aren't content until they're all the same.
Dude, that is such a bad argument. It's how they're designed, it's like me saying, "Voidrays can hit both air and ground, banshees only hit ground, HUURRR DUURRR THEIR UNDERPOWERED".
HTs and Infestors are support units too, you can't just win outright right with them, If you get enough infestors, sure. But that's why their getting nerf'd. Try massing HTs against a terran player, I'd love to see how you do.
The point is, both Zerg and Protoss rely on there casters so much if they go on that tech route, if they get EMP'd or die you pretty just lose the game. And then when you have a unit like the ghost that moves fast, easy to mass, good unit even without spells, EMP with a pretty big radius, and even snipe/cloak it's ridiculously hard to defend your casters against it, so saying you can 'chain storm' is stupid, I've been going HTs for 7-8 months vs Terran and still do. And manage to pull off only 1-2 storms even when I have spread HTs, just because the Terran has like 8 ghosts. Then have to rely on my HTs that I warped in prior to the battle that I kept safe, or use a warp prism.
I could go on and on about the imbalance of the difficulty in micro'ing a Protoss army to a Terran army, but I won't.
So your point about EMP not being able to win a game outright is stupid, because it can against a HT based army (Or an Infestor army 'probably'?, but I don't play Zerg so I wouldn't know)
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On September 20 2011 10:18 foobahz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 10:14 Eishi_Ki wrote:On September 20 2011 09:48 Dalavita wrote:On September 20 2011 09:44 Eishi_Ki wrote:On September 20 2011 09:41 EliteReplay wrote:On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote:I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build. On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote:Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss. Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down. Marauders are good too... wait what units of terran sucks? Ummmmmmm..... Reapers are about as close as you'll get I think, and they can still fuck shit up. On September 20 2011 09:42 Dalavita wrote:On September 20 2011 09:41 EliteReplay wrote:On September 20 2011 09:37 Dalavita wrote:I'm sad about the 5 second added rax time. I loved 2raxing, and after seeing how stupidly easy DRG defended 2rax from Rain in Dreamhack, it feels like the +5 seconds part of it might just be enough to take the teeth out of the build. On September 20 2011 09:36 EliteReplay wrote:On September 20 2011 09:35 tuho12345 wrote:Still no change to ghost. I'm a sad panda this will come, after watching Select vs Alicia is kind of obvious that Ghost are extremely effective vs Protoss. Not necessarily. People were bitching about marauders forever, and now finally things have settled down. Marauders are good too... wait what units of terran sucks? None, as is intended. Why would there ever be a sucky unit in a competitive multiplayer game ever? (also reapers are pretty shitty, and BC's aren't that good outside of TvT) My point is. Just because people are bitching about unit X, which once upon a time was the marauder, won't necessarily mean it'll get nerfed. People will learn to deal with ghosts eventually, just like they did with marauders. Carriers? Mothership? Phoenixes? Corrupters? Hydras? You play Terran, dontcha! Reading comprehension? Stating which units suck or not has nothing to do with my point. Also, Phoenixes and Corruptors are fine, sorry. Again: My point was "None, as is intended. Why would there ever be a sucky unit in a competitive multiplayer game ever?" ANSWER THIS, rather making a shitty list about which unit from which race sucks, which is entirely pointless. On September 20 2011 09:46 rpgalon wrote:
just like they did with HT and KA.... I'll argue that the KA removal was because KA was badly designed in combination with warp-ins, but you seemed to miss my point. There's a possibility ghosts could get nerfed. My point is that you shouldn't expect it just because people are whining about it. Oh, I don't deny there's no point in implementing a useless unit into a game, just pointing out that each of the other races does have useless units (opinions being discounted). In fact, now that I'm thinking about it, every race in BW had its useless units (or very very niche) such as Scouts and DAs, Ghosts and BCs and Queens and Devourers. In fact, we could take this further into other games as well. I played RA2 competitively (lol), Rocketeers, Soviet Attack Dogs, Spys, Dreadnoughts. Choose your game and I'm quite confident it would have had units which were underutilised due to their limited role or underpowered ability. SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose. And to boot, they all deal not too bad damage either (hell, even the air superiority fighter (which is better than all other AA fighters) can land and contribute to the ground attack). You can pure bio, pure mech, pure air or do a lovely mix of all three and if that doesn't work, no problem, switch your infrastructure around a bit and voila, an entirely new tech tree. It's well known Terran has a vast number of options available to it in comparison to Protoss and especially Zerg. The point is that whilst it's very nice that Terran has all these useful units, that same ideology of game design has not been shared with P and Z in SC2. To get to the amazing state of what BW is (and SC2 strives to be), all three races must be equal not only in terms of winning statistics, but also strategy diversity. agree 100% with everything said. terran is powerful because they have options. zerg and protoss are rigid and limited in what they can do. it's a core game flaw. i dont think it'll be fixed until all the expansions are out.
Balance and design have barely anything to do with each other, if you wanted to you could create the most one-dimensional, rigid and limited race you can think of and you can still let it win 50% of the time by just tweaking stats. If you want zerg and protoss to have more options then I'm all for that, but don't delude yourself it will somehow fix balance issues.
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On September 20 2011 10:29 avilo wrote:
Ah, wow, they went through with a mech nerf. They really need to make armories cheaper, at this rate they'll nerf tanks again or have some patch note next to the tank icon saying "use marauder instead."
I do not understand browder's obsession with making Terran need to play in a 1A marauder ball fashion. I understand there's a chip on his shoulder because of "cnc tank spam" and because this is "not brood war" but positional tank play is always 10x better than herp de derp marauder spam.
Zerg players are still laughing all the way to the bank. Sure, neural was nerfed, but mass infested terrans and infestor + broodlord remains the same strengh as last patch lol...
What? 2 out of the 3 Terran matchups use tanks. Don´t be so dramatic
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On September 20 2011 10:14 Eishi_Ki wrote:
SC2 Terran? Every single unit has a role and purpose.
Not really. If anything terran has a plethora of units that are gimmicky and only good for different timing pushes. Reapers, ravens, banshees, battlecruisers and partially even thors are really limited units and rarely seen outside very specific situtations, most of these being 1-2 base timing pushes. What this means is that terran has a ton of options in the early game in the form of different nifty timings, which is why most people say terran has "too many options", but ultimately terran relies on MMM, ghosts, vikings, hellions and tanks in the long run. Terran just does fine because these units are are really damn good, but don't confuse that with all terran units being well designed, they aren't. A unit like the reaper does not have a role and a purpose, its just a failed experiment.
Compare that to zerg where the arguably least used unit is the hydralisk, and even that one is a commonly used unit in ZvP and ZvZ midgame. Zerg has actually no "fluff" units and all of their units see a lot of usage in all stages of the game, so I'm not sure why zerg design doesn't get more appreciation. Your statement applies to zerg much better than it applies to terran.
Terran = gimmick units to surprise your opponent with and "core units" to fall back on, zerg = lean design where units perform in their role and stay viable all game. I'd rather have all races follow the zerg framework, possibly with a few more specialized units than what zerg has now.
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New balance patch? Awesome!
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On September 20 2011 10:23 RisingTide wrote:
-Fixed an issue where Colossus thermal lance beams would track a unit much further than the range of the weapon.
RIP crazy Colossus beams 2010 - 2011.
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How can people say TvZ has serious balance issues when Z has had a sharp incline in winrate % in Korea since the original FG change? Z finally overtook T in Korea for the first time, things look promising on the Z front in TvZ if you ask me - especially considering the latest T nerfs to hellions and barracks (where most zergs were losing games straight up).
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EPT
