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On September 20 2011 08:16 Gheed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 08:14 McDrew wrote:On September 20 2011 08:09 Kieofire wrote:On September 20 2011 08:08 McDrew wrote:
Its not like stephano was actually paid any money by complexity yet. (at least i doubt it) Sure complexity can try to sue for 1 day's worth of damages, but come on people. If they're serious about "legitimizing e-sports" then a 3 am contract is definitely not that. Like it has been said before, he did not have to sign the contract at 3:00 a.m. it was his choice to sign it whenever he wanted. You missed my point. This happened over the course of a day. Its not like he changed his mind 2 weeks after the fact. This whole ordeal is just being sensationalized. According to complexity negotiations took place over the course of 2 weeks. Maybe the time from when they sent the contract to the time Stephano signed it was less than a day, but what bearing does that have?
How long it took to negotiate has nothing to do with it. The only damages Complexity took was having to take back a press release 1 day after the fact. In the end, Stephano chose to do what he thought was best for him. Can Complexity sue him? Sure they can try to. But these press releases are just sensationalizing something that is simple. The world doesn't need to know these personal details.
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On September 20 2011 08:13 darkscream wrote:
It's amazing how many people are posting in this thread that have less than 5 posts and are from France. I don't have a huge post count either but come on guys, you just showed up on TL to troll this thread, it's very transparent.. >_>
I just registered something like 24 hours ago, I couldn't already know about this drama :D
I think this situation doesn't deserves so many reactions, because eventually it's quite simple :
-As someone said before, Stephano obviously didn't receive any money, and broke his contract less than 24 hours after signing it. I don't think coL can win anything from legal pursuit.
-Stephano is for sure immature, as many 18 years old boys.
-Relying on Millenium, there's some mistakes in the contract between coL and Stephano, so that they shouldn't be able to engage legal pursuit under french law.
-Millenium made a strange move, but even though it's mostly Stephano's job to speak with his manager from Millenium before joining another team, is that really right to steal a player (even though he had no legal contract (which doesn't mean he had no engagement towards Millenium)) without telling it to Lewellys before ?
I think that all of them are wrong. They'd better not make public threads but fix this situation in private.
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On September 20 2011 08:26 Eisenheim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 08:20 Vendor wrote:On September 20 2011 08:18 Eisenheim wrote:On September 20 2011 08:15 qck wrote:
Huge respect for coL for being so calm in a situation that seems to be spiraling rapidly out of control. I haven't lost respect for either Stephano or Millenium, I can only hope the issue gets resolved amicably and quickly. Are you kidding ? Posting on TL for hundred pages of troll/rage/bash. it's not "being so calm", it's immature/amateur. So everyone who is voicing in opposition towards Millennium and Stephano is from coL? I was under the impression they were considered a fairly large team in regards to Starcraft 2 and seeing as this is the largest Starcraft 2 community it would make sense for them to make a statement after something like this comes up and their official posts have only been to clarify actual relevant questions about the issue. So how is coL being immature? Clarify the situation and lock the post > Totally ok with that. Post on TL (huge community of US players) and let use patriotism/whatever for troll/rage/bash a french team (we all know US loves french no ?) => Totally amateur in the "world of sport".
What the hell does Millenium being a French team have to do with anything? Do you actually think that is why people are making a big deal out of this?
That is fucking delusional.
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On September 20 2011 08:26 Eisenheim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 08:20 Vendor wrote:On September 20 2011 08:18 Eisenheim wrote:On September 20 2011 08:15 qck wrote:
Huge respect for coL for being so calm in a situation that seems to be spiraling rapidly out of control. I haven't lost respect for either Stephano or Millenium, I can only hope the issue gets resolved amicably and quickly. Are you kidding ? Posting on TL for hundred pages of troll/rage/bash. it's not "being so calm", it's immature/amateur. So everyone who is voicing in opposition towards Millennium and Stephano is from coL? I was under the impression they were considered a fairly large team in regards to Starcraft 2 and seeing as this is the largest Starcraft 2 community it would make sense for them to make a statement after something like this comes up and their official posts have only been to clarify actual relevant questions about the issue. So how is coL being immature? Clarify the situation and lock the post > Totally ok with that. Post on TL (huge community of US players) and let use patriotism/whatever for troll/rage/bash a french team (we all know US loves french no ?) => Totally amateur in the "world of sport".
TL is where you post news in the world of SC2. Complexity does not have the power to close threads and that is not how TL works. Also the OP is not from complexity it is a community member who has put up statements from both teams into a single OP and the rest of the thread is discussion on the topic, as it should be. I don't know what angle people can look at this with the evidence provided by both sides and find no fault with Mill or Stephano. It hurts my brain.
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On September 20 2011 08:26 Eisenheim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 08:20 Vendor wrote:On September 20 2011 08:18 Eisenheim wrote:On September 20 2011 08:15 qck wrote:
Huge respect for coL for being so calm in a situation that seems to be spiraling rapidly out of control. I haven't lost respect for either Stephano or Millenium, I can only hope the issue gets resolved amicably and quickly. Are you kidding ? Posting on TL for hundred pages of troll/rage/bash. it's not "being so calm", it's immature/amateur. So everyone who is voicing in opposition towards Millennium and Stephano is from coL? I was under the impression they were considered a fairly large team in regards to Starcraft 2 and seeing as this is the largest Starcraft 2 community it would make sense for them to make a statement after something like this comes up and their official posts have only been to clarify actual relevant questions about the issue. So how is coL being immature? Clarify the situation and lock the post > Totally ok with that. Post on TL (huge community of US players) and let use patriotism/whatever for troll/rage/bash a french team (we all know US loves french no ?) => Totally amateur in the "world of sport".
We love french... fries.. oh and Paris too.. not much else though.
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On September 20 2011 08:29 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 08:26 Eisenheim wrote:On September 20 2011 08:20 Vendor wrote:On September 20 2011 08:18 Eisenheim wrote:On September 20 2011 08:15 qck wrote:
Huge respect for coL for being so calm in a situation that seems to be spiraling rapidly out of control. I haven't lost respect for either Stephano or Millenium, I can only hope the issue gets resolved amicably and quickly. Are you kidding ? Posting on TL for hundred pages of troll/rage/bash. it's not "being so calm", it's immature/amateur. So everyone who is voicing in opposition towards Millennium and Stephano is from coL? I was under the impression they were considered a fairly large team in regards to Starcraft 2 and seeing as this is the largest Starcraft 2 community it would make sense for them to make a statement after something like this comes up and their official posts have only been to clarify actual relevant questions about the issue. So how is coL being immature? Clarify the situation and lock the post > Totally ok with that. Post on TL (huge community of US players) and let use patriotism/whatever for troll/rage/bash a french team (we all know US loves french no ?) => Totally amateur in the "world of sport". We love french... fries.. oh and Paris too.. not much else though.
What about the immense baggage, cultural and otherwise?
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On September 20 2011 08:26 Eisenheim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 08:20 Vendor wrote:On September 20 2011 08:18 Eisenheim wrote:On September 20 2011 08:15 qck wrote:
Huge respect for coL for being so calm in a situation that seems to be spiraling rapidly out of control. I haven't lost respect for either Stephano or Millenium, I can only hope the issue gets resolved amicably and quickly. Are you kidding ? Posting on TL for hundred pages of troll/rage/bash. it's not "being so calm", it's immature/amateur. So everyone who is voicing in opposition towards Millennium and Stephano is from coL? I was under the impression they were considered a fairly large team in regards to Starcraft 2 and seeing as this is the largest Starcraft 2 community it would make sense for them to make a statement after something like this comes up and their official posts have only been to clarify actual relevant questions about the issue. So how is coL being immature? Clarify the situation and lock the post > Totally ok with that. Post on TL (huge community of US players) and let use patriotism/whatever for troll/rage/bash a french team (we all know US loves french no ?) => Totally amateur in the "world of sport".
this isnt a us vs french thing. Its a breach of contract thing...
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On September 20 2011 08:29 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 08:26 Eisenheim wrote:On September 20 2011 08:20 Vendor wrote:On September 20 2011 08:18 Eisenheim wrote:On September 20 2011 08:15 qck wrote:
Huge respect for coL for being so calm in a situation that seems to be spiraling rapidly out of control. I haven't lost respect for either Stephano or Millenium, I can only hope the issue gets resolved amicably and quickly. Are you kidding ? Posting on TL for hundred pages of troll/rage/bash. it's not "being so calm", it's immature/amateur. So everyone who is voicing in opposition towards Millennium and Stephano is from coL? I was under the impression they were considered a fairly large team in regards to Starcraft 2 and seeing as this is the largest Starcraft 2 community it would make sense for them to make a statement after something like this comes up and their official posts have only been to clarify actual relevant questions about the issue. So how is coL being immature? Clarify the situation and lock the post > Totally ok with that. Post on TL (huge community of US players) and let use patriotism/whatever for troll/rage/bash a french team (we all know US loves french no ?) => Totally amateur in the "world of sport". We love french... fries.. oh and Paris too.. not much else though.
French kissing? Tour de france and wine.
And guys, come on. The french gave the US her statue of liberty. Liberty, freedom - kinda ironic in this case 
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Stephano should take his time and consider everything, get some good advisors and then settle this thing once and for all. It really seems like he is being influenced by a lot of sources. Shows that he is still quite young i guess.
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On September 20 2011 08:28 MyRevenge wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 08:13 darkscream wrote:
It's amazing how many people are posting in this thread that have less than 5 posts and are from France. I don't have a huge post count either but come on guys, you just showed up on TL to troll this thread, it's very transparent.. >_> I just registered something like 24 hours ago, I couldn't already know about this drama :D I think this situation doesn't deserves so many reactions, because eventually it's quite simple : -As someone said before, Stephano obviously didn't receive any money, and broke his contract less than 24 hours after signing it. I don't think coL can win anything from legal pursuit. -Stephano is for sure immature, as many 18 years old boys. -Relying on Millenium, there's some mistakes in the contract between coL and Stephano, so that they shouldn't be able to engage legal pursuit under french law. -Millenium made a strange move, but even though it's mostly Stephano's job to speak with his manager from Millenium before joining another team, is that really right to steal a player (even though he had no legal contract (which doesn't mean he had no engagement towards Millenium)) without telling it to Lewellys before ? I think that all of them are wrong. They'd better not make public threads but fix this situation in private.
You think that all of them are wrong, based on your extensive research into all their actions and international contract law? Rofl. You clearly have 0 information in your brain to know what you claim to know.
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On September 20 2011 08:19 CEO wrote:
Why can't Complexity just cancel the contract and let it go? They shouldn't harass Stephano about it. Stephano made a last-second decision about his SC2 career. And Complexity hasn't suffered anything from this. This is basically the same situation as it would've been if no contract were involved, except with a contract. I think the organisations should stop being so silly about this.
Why would future teams make contracts with other players if the contract wasn't going to be of use?
You can obviously see how this could be problem, yes?
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It would be epic to see a Millenium / Complexity ClanWar to close this debate !! =D
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On September 20 2011 08:32 AIOL! wrote:
It would be epic to see a Millenium / Complexity ClanWar to close this debate !! =D
Already says that, but really unfair for coL.
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On September 20 2011 08:28 MyRevenge wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 08:13 darkscream wrote:
It's amazing how many people are posting in this thread that have less than 5 posts and are from France. I don't have a huge post count either but come on guys, you just showed up on TL to troll this thread, it's very transparent.. >_> I just registered something like 24 hours ago, I couldn't already know about this drama :D I think this situation doesn't deserves so many reactions, because eventually it's quite simple : -As someone said before, Stephano obviously didn't receive any money, and broke his contract less than 24 hours after signing it. I don't think coL can win anything from legal pursuit. -Stephano is for sure immature, as many 18 years old boys. -Relying on Millenium, there's some mistakes in the contract between coL and Stephano, so that they shouldn't be able to engage legal pursuit under french law. -Millenium made a strange move, but even though it's mostly Stephano's job to speak with his manager from Millenium before joining another team, is that really right to steal a player (even though he had no legal contract (which doesn't mean he had no engagement towards Millenium)) without telling it to Lewellys before ? I think that all of them are wrong. They'd better not make public threads but fix this situation in private.
"Steal" a player? Offering a player not under contract is not stealing them, especially when Mil was fully aware and made counter offers over the course of 18 days.
Mil is in the wrong and I wish they would come out and admit it, it has NOTHING to do with nationality at all, they are undermining the integrity of contracts in professional gaming. How are we supposed to call it professional if people are allowed to mock contracts?
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On September 20 2011 08:08 McDrew wrote:
Its not like stephano was actually paid any money by complexity yet. (at least i doubt it) Sure complexity can try to sue for 1 day's worth of damages, but come on people. If they're serious about "legitimizing e-sports" then a 3 am contract is definitely not that.
its not the money, coL signed him to play for them for a year, at a guess, not like they would sign a player for a week. a year is normal. they want him to play for them, this isnt about wanting money back, they want their player
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On September 20 2011 08:13 Snorkle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 08:05 Paladia wrote:
As a law student, there are a couple of things I would like to ask Complexity.
1. Why is this not set to go under a court of arbitration? Else, it could take years to get it sorted legally. A counrt of arbitration is how it is done in sports. It would also keep it hidden and as such we wouldn't even know about this dispute.
2. Why do we even know about this? Why are you posting legal updates on Twitter? Why are you posting legal threats on the internet?
3. You have not yet suffered any economical damage, and judging from other esports contract, it isn't praxis to add additional breach fees. As such, sueing would be entirely pointless and gain no one nothing regardless of who won. The only winners would be your legal counsel. So why would you?
4. As you likely know, sueing someone internationally isn't viable unless you have major financial muscles, so why are you even spending time on this regardless of the other points?
Both Millennium and Complexity stand out as complete amateurs in this case. Legal threats on the internet, public polemic, no court of arbitration and childish emotional talks of sueing over something that would gain one nothing. If they want to stand out as professionals, this is hardly the way to go about it.
The thing one realizes from this is that esports could use its own court of arbitration at some point. It is basically a few (legally trained) people that all parties agree upon will decide any breaches or disputes. As such, a verdict is very fast, cannot be appealed, is hidden from the public and is often cheaper (due to its speed). It is how it is done in sports, they have their own court of arbitration. It isn't related to what KeSPA is doing and has nothing to do with the game or management in itself, it just settles legal disputes.
Of course, one can use any ordinary court of arbitration for that (which they should have done in this case), it is just that it would be a bit expensive and it may not be very suited to solve disputes directly related to esports or actual gameplay. Seeing as you are a law student and Jason Lake sold his profitable law firm in order to pursue Esports and he seems to believe he has several legal options and the posting on twitter or reddit is not detrimental to his case, I am going to believe he knows what he is doing.
Having a law firm doesn't say anything about how good he is at international contract law. As for posting legal threats on Twitter, that is hardly professional. Even doing it in public is bad enough.
Do you see any large professional company post legal threats on twitter or on forums? Both parties just sound like amateurs in this case.
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On September 20 2011 08:16 uberism wrote:
I don't understand the concept of playing for a team.
I mean, how does having certain players make a team more money? Its not like the current popular sports where people pay money to see particular players play for a home town.
We want to see the player and the team who they represent doesn't really mean much to me. Who can name all the sponsors of all the pro sc2 team?
It's quite simple really. Players get offered money by organizations depending on how much that organization values them.
Value in a player has a lot of factors, of course being good is a given, but that's not all. If that was all then a ton of Korean players would be getting tons of offers. The other part is how marketable the player is. At the moment most of the eSports money is in foreign organizations hands and that's why you see players like Huk and Stephano get offered tons of money. They're good and they're foreign so they're more marketable. Having more marketable players on your team makes you more appealing to fans, you reach a wider audience and in return also makes sponsors happy.
This is why personalities in the community are offered contracts by pro teams. People like Artosis who doesn't play professionally anymore can get contracted with a team like sixjax or like Wolf who's a part of FXO. Even though they don't provide much to the team in terms of gameplay they're great personalities and helps promote the team to the community and to sponsors.
In professional sports you see this happen all the time. It's why players like TO, Michael Vick, Shaq, or Allen Iverson are able to stay in the league so long. Even if they're past their prime, considered a disruption, or even convicted felons they're personalities that people hear about and talk about often. It gives whatever team/organization more buzz and therefore more viewers/fans which in turn becomes more sponsorship money.
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On September 20 2011 08:28 MyRevenge wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 08:13 darkscream wrote:
It's amazing how many people are posting in this thread that have less than 5 posts and are from France. I don't have a huge post count either but come on guys, you just showed up on TL to troll this thread, it's very transparent.. >_> I just registered something like 24 hours ago, I couldn't already know about this drama :D I think this situation doesn't deserves so many reactions, because eventually it's quite simple : -As someone said before, Stephano obviously didn't receive any money, and broke his contract less than 24 hours after signing it. I don't think coL can win anything from legal pursuit. -Stephano is for sure immature, as many 18 years old boys. -Relying on Millenium, there's some mistakes in the contract between coL and Stephano, so that they shouldn't be able to engage legal pursuit under french law. -Millenium made a strange move, but even though it's mostly Stephano's job to speak with his manager from Millenium before joining another team, is that really right to steal a player (even though he had no legal contract (which doesn't mean he had no engagement towards Millenium)) without telling it to Lewellys before ? I think that all of them are wrong. They'd better not make public threads but fix this situation in private.
strange you wouldn't know what a breach of contract and the word 'steal' means... if this situation becomes precedent in e-sport, the whole ground for e-sports will lose credibility and becom high risk investment to any potential investor.. in other words, it could very well be the end of e-sports growth in the west... nothing much uh?
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On September 20 2011 08:24 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 08:23 Zocat wrote:On September 20 2011 08:20 solidONE wrote:
Him [Stephano] backing out, not saying anything personally [...] is really unprofessional. That's actually the first professional thing he did. Not running around in the public and making official statements. Maybe he's even contacting a real lawyer. its actually extremely unprofessional to ignore complexity's e-mails (which he and millenium are doing) and not even telling them you are changing your mind. Literally he said nothing to them and mill said he changed his mind lol.
Judging by how they conduct themselves, those emails are likely filled with nothing but empty legals threats.
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EPT
