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Stephano contract situation - Page 111

Forum Index > SC2 General
3152 CommentsPost a Reply
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Lack of content, flaming (of the French or anyone) and useless posts will be punished. Please keep it from being too inflammatory and keep discussion on-topic. -semioldguy (p.103)

Update: Please read http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267506#1 and continue the discussion there.
Shebuha
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada1335 Posts
September 19 2011 23:37 GMT
#2201
But he... signed a contract?

I do hope that col. ends up getting Stephano, out of no hate for anyone in this situation. If you sign a legal contract, you should be binded to it.
Linwelin
Profile Joined March 2011
Ireland7554 Posts
September 19 2011 23:37 GMT
#2202
On September 20 2011 08:33 Eisenheim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 08:32 AIOL! wrote:
It would be epic to see a Millenium / Complexity ClanWar to close this debate !! =D


Already says that, but really unfair for coL.


Yeah they just have to use any MVP member and win ez
Fuck Razor and Death Prophet
hypnoxide
Profile Joined August 2011
240 Posts
September 19 2011 23:37 GMT
#2203
On September 20 2011 08:34 Paladia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 08:13 Snorkle wrote:
On September 20 2011 08:05 Paladia wrote:
As a law student, there are a couple of things I would like to ask Complexity.

1. Why is this not set to go under a court of arbitration? Else, it could take years to get it sorted legally. A counrt of arbitration is how it is done in sports. It would also keep it hidden and as such we wouldn't even know about this dispute.
2. Why do we even know about this? Why are you posting legal updates on Twitter? Why are you posting legal threats on the internet?
3. You have not yet suffered any economical damage, and judging from other esports contract, it isn't praxis to add additional breach fees. As such, sueing would be entirely pointless and gain no one nothing regardless of who won. The only winners would be your legal counsel. So why would you?
4. As you likely know, sueing someone internationally isn't viable unless you have major financial muscles, so why are you even spending time on this regardless of the other points?

Both Millennium and Complexity stand out as complete amateurs in this case. Legal threats on the internet, public polemic, no court of arbitration and childish emotional talks of sueing over something that would gain one nothing. If they want to stand out as professionals, this is hardly the way to go about it.

The thing one realizes from this is that esports could use its own court of arbitration at some point. It is basically a few (legally trained) people that all parties agree upon will decide any breaches or disputes. As such, a verdict is very fast, cannot be appealed, is hidden from the public and is often cheaper (due to its speed). It is how it is done in sports, they have their own court of arbitration. It isn't related to what KeSPA is doing and has nothing to do with the game or management in itself, it just settles legal disputes.

Of course, one can use any ordinary court of arbitration for that (which they should have done in this case), it is just that it would be a bit expensive and it may not be very suited to solve disputes directly related to esports or actual gameplay.



Seeing as you are a law student and Jason Lake sold his profitable law firm in order to pursue Esports and he seems to believe he has several legal options and the posting on twitter or reddit is not detrimental to his case, I am going to believe he knows what he is doing.

Having a law firm doesn't say anything about how good he is at international contract law. As for posting legal threats on Twitter, that is hardly professional. Even doing it in public is bad enough.

Do you see any large professional company post legal threats on twitter or on forums? Both parties just sound like amateurs in this case.

Since when have people been against transparency?
Proud hipster of the SlayersCoCa fanclub!
bobthebo
Profile Joined May 2011
101 Posts
September 19 2011 23:37 GMT
#2204
contract's a contract. If stephano doesn't play for Complexity i would be rather upset if legal action isn't taken.
s4life
Profile Joined March 2007
Peru1519 Posts
September 19 2011 23:38 GMT
#2205
On September 20 2011 08:34 shortsteve wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 08:16 uberism wrote:
I don't understand the concept of playing for a team.
I mean, how does having certain players make a team more money? Its not like the current popular sports where people pay money to see particular players play for a home town.

We want to see the player and the team who they represent doesn't really mean much to me. Who can name all the sponsors of all the pro sc2 team?


It's quite simple really. Players get offered money by organizations depending on how much that organization values them.

Value in a player has a lot of factors, of course being good is a given, but that's not all. If that was all then a ton of Korean players would be getting tons of offers. The other part is how marketable the player is. At the moment most of the eSports money is in foreign organizations hands and that's why you see players like Huk and Stephano get offered tons of money. They're good and they're foreign so they're more marketable. Having more marketable players on your team makes you more appealing to fans, you reach a wider audience and in return also makes sponsors happy.

This is why personalities in the community are offered contracts by pro teams. People like Artosis who doesn't play professionally anymore can get contracted with a team like sixjax or like Wolf who's a part of FXO. Even though they don't provide much to the team in terms of gameplay they're great personalities and helps promote the team to the community and to sponsors.

In professional sports you see this happen all the time. It's why players like TO, Michael Vick, Shaq, or Allen Iverson are able to stay in the league so long. Even if they're past their prime, considered a disruption, or even convicted felons they're personalities that people hear about and talk about often. It gives whatever team/organization more buzz and therefore more viewers/fans which in turn becomes more sponsorship money.


TO, Michael Vick and Iverson (Shaq does not belong in that list) were given a pass because they were exceptionally good at what they did.. not because they were popular in the first place.. you have it all backwards
MyRevenge
Profile Joined September 2011
France12 Posts
September 19 2011 23:39 GMT
#2206
On September 20 2011 08:32 arbitrageur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 08:28 MyRevenge wrote:
On September 20 2011 08:13 darkscream wrote:
It's amazing how many people are posting in this thread that have less than 5 posts and are from France. I don't have a huge post count either but come on guys, you just showed up on TL to troll this thread, it's very transparent.. >_>

I just registered something like 24 hours ago, I couldn't already know about this drama :D

I think this situation doesn't deserves so many reactions, because eventually it's quite simple :

-As someone said before, Stephano obviously didn't receive any money, and broke his contract less than 24 hours after signing it. I don't think coL can win anything from legal pursuit.
-Stephano is for sure immature, as many 18 years old boys.
-Relying on Millenium, there's some mistakes in the contract between coL and Stephano, so that they shouldn't be able to engage legal pursuit under french law.
-Millenium made a strange move, but even though it's mostly Stephano's job to speak with his manager from Millenium before joining another team, is that really right to steal a player (even though he had no legal contract (which doesn't mean he had no engagement towards Millenium)) without telling it to Lewellys before ?

I think that all of them are wrong. They'd better not make public threads but fix this situation in private.

You think that all of them are wrong, based on your extensive research into all their actions and international contract law? Rofl. You clearly have 0 information in your brain to know what you claim to know.

I'll make it simpler :

- If coL engage legal pursuit, they won't have any compensation, or a ridiculous one.
- Stephano maybe behaved like a kid, but he's just 18 years old, does it deserve 3 000 posts about it?
- Both Stephano & coL should have told Millenium about this contract. Even though he had no legal contract, Stephano was still engaged with Millenium.
- Millenium's reaction is unfair too, maybe even illegal.

Eventually, no one of them make benefits from this situation. That's why I just said they were all wrong and should better fix this in private. Got it?
darthfoley
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States8001 Posts
September 19 2011 23:40 GMT
#2207
Even if coL end up with Stephano, he isn't going to play like he would under Mill. He'll probably make life hard for coL in hopes that they let him go (i wouldn't dislike him for it.)

Strange situation
watch the wall collide with my fist, mostly over problems that i know i should fix
Tarias
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands480 Posts
September 19 2011 23:41 GMT
#2208
On September 20 2011 08:39 MyRevenge wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 08:32 arbitrageur wrote:
On September 20 2011 08:28 MyRevenge wrote:
On September 20 2011 08:13 darkscream wrote:
It's amazing how many people are posting in this thread that have less than 5 posts and are from France. I don't have a huge post count either but come on guys, you just showed up on TL to troll this thread, it's very transparent.. >_>

I just registered something like 24 hours ago, I couldn't already know about this drama :D

I think this situation doesn't deserves so many reactions, because eventually it's quite simple :

-As someone said before, Stephano obviously didn't receive any money, and broke his contract less than 24 hours after signing it. I don't think coL can win anything from legal pursuit.
-Stephano is for sure immature, as many 18 years old boys.
-Relying on Millenium, there's some mistakes in the contract between coL and Stephano, so that they shouldn't be able to engage legal pursuit under french law.
-Millenium made a strange move, but even though it's mostly Stephano's job to speak with his manager from Millenium before joining another team, is that really right to steal a player (even though he had no legal contract (which doesn't mean he had no engagement towards Millenium)) without telling it to Lewellys before ?

I think that all of them are wrong. They'd better not make public threads but fix this situation in private.

You think that all of them are wrong, based on your extensive research into all their actions and international contract law? Rofl. You clearly have 0 information in your brain to know what you claim to know.

I'll make it simpler :

- If coL engage legal pursuit, they won't have any compensation, or a ridiculous one.
- Stephano maybe behaved like a kid, but he's just 18 years old, does it deserve 3 000 posts about it?
- Both Stephano & coL should have told Millenium about this contract. Even though he had no legal contract, Stephano was still engaged with Millenium.
- Millenium's reaction is unfair too, maybe even illegal.

Eventually, no one of them make benefits from this situation. That's why I just said they were all wrong and should better fix this in private. Got it?

He isn't asking for a simpeler version, he's asking for arguments and reasonings..
Go big, or go home!
Assirra
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium4169 Posts
September 19 2011 23:42 GMT
#2209
On September 20 2011 08:37 Shebuha wrote:
But he... signed a contract?

I do hope that col. ends up getting Stephano, out of no hate for anyone in this situation. If you sign a legal contract, you should be binded to it.

He is not a thing you know.
They can't simply "get" him when he doesn't want to, won't be good for anyone.
hypnoxide
Profile Joined August 2011
240 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 23:44:20
September 19 2011 23:43 GMT
#2210
On September 20 2011 08:39 MyRevenge wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 08:32 arbitrageur wrote:
On September 20 2011 08:28 MyRevenge wrote:
On September 20 2011 08:13 darkscream wrote:
It's amazing how many people are posting in this thread that have less than 5 posts and are from France. I don't have a huge post count either but come on guys, you just showed up on TL to troll this thread, it's very transparent.. >_>

I just registered something like 24 hours ago, I couldn't already know about this drama :D

I think this situation doesn't deserves so many reactions, because eventually it's quite simple :

-As someone said before, Stephano obviously didn't receive any money, and broke his contract less than 24 hours after signing it. I don't think coL can win anything from legal pursuit.
-Stephano is for sure immature, as many 18 years old boys.
-Relying on Millenium, there's some mistakes in the contract between coL and Stephano, so that they shouldn't be able to engage legal pursuit under french law.
-Millenium made a strange move, but even though it's mostly Stephano's job to speak with his manager from Millenium before joining another team, is that really right to steal a player (even though he had no legal contract (which doesn't mean he had no engagement towards Millenium)) without telling it to Lewellys before ?

I think that all of them are wrong. They'd better not make public threads but fix this situation in private.

You think that all of them are wrong, based on your extensive research into all their actions and international contract law? Rofl. You clearly have 0 information in your brain to know what you claim to know.

I'll make it simpler :

- If coL engage legal pursuit, they won't have any compensation, or a ridiculous one.
- Stephano maybe behaved like a kid, but he's just 18 years old, does it deserve 3 000 posts about it?
- Both Stephano & coL should have told Millenium about this contract. Even though he had no legal contract, Stephano was still engaged with Millenium.
- Millenium's reaction is unfair too, maybe even illegal.

Eventually, no one of them make benefits from this situation. That's why I just said they were all wrong and should better fix this in private. Got it?

......Millenium DID know about the negotiations, hence the offer/counter-offers.

On September 20 2011 08:42 Assirra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 08:37 Shebuha wrote:
But he... signed a contract?

I do hope that col. ends up getting Stephano, out of no hate for anyone in this situation. If you sign a legal contract, you should be binded to it.

He is not a thing you know.
They can't simply "get" him when he doesn't want to, won't be good for anyone.


He seemed to be happy to sign it earlier. Send him to complexity.
Proud hipster of the SlayersCoCa fanclub!
s4life
Profile Joined March 2007
Peru1519 Posts
September 19 2011 23:44 GMT
#2211
On September 20 2011 08:42 Assirra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 08:37 Shebuha wrote:
But he... signed a contract?

I do hope that col. ends up getting Stephano, out of no hate for anyone in this situation. If you sign a legal contract, you should be binded to it.

He is not a thing you know.
They can't simply "get" him when he doesn't want to, won't be good for anyone.


I doubt they are trying to get him now.. I hope they sue his ass -- and millenium's -- for a whole lotta money though.. bunch of unprofessional pricks.
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
September 19 2011 23:45 GMT
#2212
On September 20 2011 08:43 hypnoxide wrote:
He seemed to be happy to sign it earlier. Send him to complexity.

Yeah in a sealed bag branded: Fresh Products.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
Falcor
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada894 Posts
September 19 2011 23:45 GMT
#2213
On September 20 2011 08:39 MyRevenge wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 08:32 arbitrageur wrote:
On September 20 2011 08:28 MyRevenge wrote:
On September 20 2011 08:13 darkscream wrote:
It's amazing how many people are posting in this thread that have less than 5 posts and are from France. I don't have a huge post count either but come on guys, you just showed up on TL to troll this thread, it's very transparent.. >_>

I just registered something like 24 hours ago, I couldn't already know about this drama :D

I think this situation doesn't deserves so many reactions, because eventually it's quite simple :

-As someone said before, Stephano obviously didn't receive any money, and broke his contract less than 24 hours after signing it. I don't think coL can win anything from legal pursuit.
-Stephano is for sure immature, as many 18 years old boys.
-Relying on Millenium, there's some mistakes in the contract between coL and Stephano, so that they shouldn't be able to engage legal pursuit under french law.
-Millenium made a strange move, but even though it's mostly Stephano's job to speak with his manager from Millenium before joining another team, is that really right to steal a player (even though he had no legal contract (which doesn't mean he had no engagement towards Millenium)) without telling it to Lewellys before ?

I think that all of them are wrong. They'd better not make public threads but fix this situation in private.

You think that all of them are wrong, based on your extensive research into all their actions and international contract law? Rofl. You clearly have 0 information in your brain to know what you claim to know.

I'll make it simpler :

- If coL engage legal pursuit, they won't have any compensation, or a ridiculous one.
- Stephano maybe behaved like a kid, but he's just 18 years old, does it deserve 3 000 posts about it?
- Both Stephano & coL should have told Millenium about this contract. Even though he had no legal contract, Stephano was still engaged with Millenium.
- Millenium's reaction is unfair too, maybe even illegal.

Eventually, no one of them make benefits from this situation. That's why I just said they were all wrong and should better fix this in private. Got it?


col and millenium were in negotiations for 2 weeks. sending counter offers back and forth. millenium knew col was in talks with stephano because they were at the bargaining table while it was happening...
shortsteve
Profile Joined May 2011
29 Posts
September 19 2011 23:46 GMT
#2214
On September 20 2011 08:38 s4life wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 08:34 shortsteve wrote:
On September 20 2011 08:16 uberism wrote:
I don't understand the concept of playing for a team.
I mean, how does having certain players make a team more money? Its not like the current popular sports where people pay money to see particular players play for a home town.

We want to see the player and the team who they represent doesn't really mean much to me. Who can name all the sponsors of all the pro sc2 team?


It's quite simple really. Players get offered money by organizations depending on how much that organization values them.

Value in a player has a lot of factors, of course being good is a given, but that's not all. If that was all then a ton of Korean players would be getting tons of offers. The other part is how marketable the player is. At the moment most of the eSports money is in foreign organizations hands and that's why you see players like Huk and Stephano get offered tons of money. They're good and they're foreign so they're more marketable. Having more marketable players on your team makes you more appealing to fans, you reach a wider audience and in return also makes sponsors happy.

This is why personalities in the community are offered contracts by pro teams. People like Artosis who doesn't play professionally anymore can get contracted with a team like sixjax or like Wolf who's a part of FXO. Even though they don't provide much to the team in terms of gameplay they're great personalities and helps promote the team to the community and to sponsors.

In professional sports you see this happen all the time. It's why players like TO, Michael Vick, Shaq, or Allen Iverson are able to stay in the league so long. Even if they're past their prime, considered a disruption, or even convicted felons they're personalities that people hear about and talk about often. It gives whatever team/organization more buzz and therefore more viewers/fans which in turn becomes more sponsorship money.


TO, Michael Vick and Iverson (Shaq does not belong in that list) were given a pass because they were exceptionally good at what they did.. not because they were popular in the first place.. you have it all backwards


not really, they got known because they were good. But even after they were past their prime they still received max contracts, because of their antics an popularity. Shaq recently retired, but I wouldn't be surprised that if he wanted to come back a team would sign him for a couple million.

Michael Vick is a convicted felon, normally no organization would want to be associated with them, but because he caused a lot of buzz he's been given a second chance and is now one of the top paid players. Even when he wasn't being paid top money and sitting on the bench, when you talked about the Eagles you would talk about Michael Vick.
French fries
Profile Joined September 2011
France3 Posts
September 19 2011 23:46 GMT
#2215
France 1-0 USA

User was banned for this post.
Val_
Profile Joined May 2010
Ukraine156 Posts
September 19 2011 23:46 GMT
#2216
stephano is just a kid ..
AKA [7x]Val / GML Terran EU
Piotr
Profile Joined September 2011
26 Posts
September 19 2011 23:47 GMT
#2217
I wrote a first post on this subject sooner but let’s do it again. (I’m French sorry for my poor English, have read TL forum for years but I have never something interesting to say so this is my first day).

First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French one. This is the Convention of Rome for European countries and it is used for other countries as well. Labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases.

The convention of Rome is a convention between European countries but all the cases between France and a foreign country that I know are stated in regard of the convention of Rome. The convention of Rome is obviously not applied but, because France’s labor law is not law, the bases are used. Labor law in France is mainly governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). Obviously if the foreign country breaks another convention (human rights, whatever...), convention of Rome is not used.

Stephano has apparently signed a contract with col on docusign. For those who think it’s just an informal thing, e-signing is integrated to the law of all the European countries and the United States by the ESIGN and by a European Directive from 1999. Because of the professionalism of docusign and col, I think that the contract must be totally legal and it will be accepted by a French court.
Someone says that in French law you have to sign a CDI in French. That’s right but Stephano has certainly not signed for a CDI. The fact is that we don’t know what Stephano has signed. Maybe it is an international contract. The French law doesn’t know international contract but the European does. I’m convinced, it depends on many facts that we don’t have, that French court will accept this contract.

In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do :p ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. It is obvious that it the case here. A particularly clause in the contract is not required for that. So, if Millenium wants to sign a contract with Stephano, the contract between col/stephano has to be cancelled.

Thus, this is another thing that is said: if Stephano has not signed anything with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. We have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). Millenium’s debauch is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a prejudice for col (economic, moral...). It is not unusual: on one hand in France the employee has always a preferential treatment but on the other hand you can see that as a conflict between two companies Millenium and col. On top of that esport and sport in general are really accustomed to this kind of things. Regarding the fact that the labor law is mainly governed by case law, it’s difficult to state.

My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI and say that Stephano will stay 12 months, that doesn't have any sense at all in France because CDI means permanent contract so you don’t have to talk about a period when you sign it, it can be used in front of a court by Stephano if for example Millenium decide to fire him after 12 months. (I don’t think so :p ) Also I think that coL will not go to court because it’s expensive, it’s a pity because a case law would be a good thing for esport. And Stephano looks very influenced, I wonder what his parents are doing right now if the contract of col was so gainful…
BroboCop
Profile Joined December 2010
United States373 Posts
September 19 2011 23:47 GMT
#2218
i don't get why so many people here are not even reading the whole situation and act like they know what they are talking about when what they are asking/insisting has already been stated.
AIOL!
Profile Joined January 2011
France962 Posts
September 19 2011 23:47 GMT
#2219
On September 20 2011 08:46 French fries wrote:
France 1-0 USA

Ban plz -_-
Stephano!!!!!!/Nerchio/Mana/Hasuobs/Grubby/Kas/Tarson/Sarens/Goody/BeastyCury
Assirra
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium4169 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 23:50:15
September 19 2011 23:48 GMT
#2220
On September 20 2011 08:44 s4life wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 08:42 Assirra wrote:
On September 20 2011 08:37 Shebuha wrote:
But he... signed a contract?

I do hope that col. ends up getting Stephano, out of no hate for anyone in this situation. If you sign a legal contract, you should be binded to it.

He is not a thing you know.
They can't simply "get" him when he doesn't want to, won't be good for anyone.


I doubt they are trying to get him now.. I hope they sue his ass -- and millenium's -- for a whole lotta money though.. bunch of unprofessional pricks.

sueing him would make CoL look the bad guy here tough.
You can't just randomly sue ppl when you have a company/business to keep running.
imagine having "ruining someone's carreer" on your name.
Their best bet is Mil. if they want to prevent a bad reputation.

It's sad this kind of stuff happens, but unless a system like KESPA exists they keeps stuff under control it will happen again and again.
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