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On September 08 2011 06:25 Zanno wrote:
i don't understand all the hate for TvT
it's the only matchup at the moment that plays like a proper starcraft match, although TvZ is getting close
Thats just your opinion, and even if I did share it, many people dont want to see 80% of every match in Code S being TvT.
On September 08 2011 06:29 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 06:24 roymarthyup wrote:On September 08 2011 06:02 lizzard_warish wrote:
I can put my finger on why GSL is getting boring, and so can most people from what I've seen; watching thirty tvt's in a row is fucking gay.
User was warned for this post Just clearing things up that this poster probably only got warned due to his extreme language and use of "F" and "G" words. other than that, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and he has his, and thats why he wasnt banned he was just warned. Mods use worse language than that He was just made an example of not to start "terran op" speak
Its pretty bigoted to use the word "Gay" as a descriptor for something bad or something you dislike.
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On September 08 2011 06:25 Zanno wrote:
i don't understand all the hate for TvT
it's the only matchup at the moment that plays like a proper starcraft match, although TvZ is getting close
Lol "proper". Give me a break. Call it what you want, but any mirror has half the unit diversity of a non-mirror matchup. Not to mention that terran games are generally the most boring to watch. Hellions are perhaps the only sort of exciting thing tvt had going for it. Slow tank contains and viking wars are something I don't even consider worth watching.
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Also, it takes soooo long! MLG you can really feel momentum build as the tournament goes- it's really harsh to have to wait a week between seeing a player play 2 consecutive matches.
MLG is great because of the concentrated action.
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GSL is too abusive.
when you give them most creative and inventive players a full week to prepare for their matches, the builds they develop simply become too abusive of either the racial imbalances or their opponents weaknesses, so although it does produce high level games, a lot of the games in Code S, because the players want to win so much and have so much time to prepare, theyre not willing to risk playing entertaining games and produce entertaining SC2, rather they would just have a build order win that doesnt do anything for the crowd.
on the other hand, when players have to play 20 games against all different races, all within a weekend, they have no time to prepare for each match, then they start playing for standard openings, and produce longer, more entertaining games, since they just dont have the time to analyse an opponents playstyle and develop a build to counter. so to have abusive builds, they have to be developed and played essentially blind, which is a huge risk, and so you get players willing to rely more on playing standard games, and let their overall skill, whether it be micro and game or decision making take over, and thats where entertaining SC2 is produced.
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MC lost something I think he shouldn't have, let's quickly make a thread about it and blame the format/his race/Korean lag.
25% of all players in a given season go to the up and down matches, which means potentially you could see 8 new players every season come up from Code A. People have, in fact, been complaining that TOO FEW new players come in regardless of that.
I have absolutely no problem with the GSL format and I have no idea why you want to make it more open. That's not the point of a LEAGUE. You want open tournaments, watch MLG or Dreamhack. Leagues are there so we can watch the performance of players change over time as they play in each and every season.
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Code S/A is pretty entertaining. the tvt's do get boring once inawhile.. but when high level players like Mvp/MMA/polt are in it, I don't mind. Sure beats nestea rolling over inca and losira.
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What I think would really help would be restreams for NA/EU, I would watch GSL but waking up at 4 in the morning to watch live isn't worth it.
Also, not having to download the GOM player to watch the stream would help viewership imo
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On September 08 2011 06:20 Sandro wrote:
I try to watch Code A but the casters cracking bad jokes and trying to emulate tastosis make it painful.
Yea, this is a problem too. At the beginning the Doa&Moletrap-Combination was pretty good, but every caster duo fails at emulating Tastosis. 
On September 08 2011 06:24 roymarthyup wrote:
Just clearing things up that this poster probably only got warned due to his extreme language and use of "F" and "G" words. other than that, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and he has his, and thats why he wasnt banned he was just warned.
I'm not so sure. These words are at many places in this Forum, but most people dont get warned.
Maybe it wasnt his first time?!
On September 08 2011 06:25 Zanno wrote:
i don't understand all the hate for TvT
it's the only matchup at the moment that plays like a proper starcraft match, although TvZ is getting close
Well, if you dont play Terran and the only thing you see on GSL is TvTs, it kinda gets boring and frustrating after a while.
I mean, many people may watch to see some new stuff from Protoss or Zerg, but they dont because there are so few of them.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On September 08 2011 06:30 EcstatiC wrote:
GSL is too abusive.
when you give them most creative and inventive players a full week to prepare for their matches, the builds they develop simply become too abusive of either the racial imbalances or their opponents weaknesses, so although it does produce high level games, a lot of the games in Code S, because the players want to win so much and have so much time to prepare, theyre not willing to risk playing entertaining games and produce entertaining SC2, rather they would just have a build order win that doesnt do anything for the crowd.
on the other hand, when players have to play 20 games against all different races, all within a weekend, they have no time to prepare for each match, then they start playing for standard openings, and produce longer, more entertaining games, since they just dont have the time to analyse an opponents playstyle and develop a build to counter. so to have abusive builds, they have to be developed and played essentially blind, which is a huge risk, and so you get players willing to rely more on playing standard games, and let their overall skill, whether it be micro and game or decision making take over, and thats where entertaining SC2 is produced.
You can say that, and that could be a fair point; but I'd like to note that identifying and eventually overcoming and ironing out these "abuse" builds is long-run good for the Sc2 metagame. Plus, only in Code S do we see such baller balling as the NesTea anti-FFE spinecrawler rush <3
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The main reason GSL is getting stale is the mass of Terrans and this is coming from a Terran player. Protoss really needs some help because they're hopeless atm at the highest level. And I don't believe this argument that the reason is that just more good players are choosing Terran. Because of the way the race is designed there's just a lot more that can be done. Protoss, and to a lesser extent Zerg, have to get some fixes in HotS to get them up to par with Terran in this regard.
Also, the players choosing there own groups is also something that fucks up the brackets. Something done by seeding (based on GSL points) would be a lot better. Then MVP, Nestea, MC etc wouldn't meet until atleast the semi-finals.
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Its just all the terrans ㅠㅠ Its cool to watch the best of your race play but for protoss things aren't going too well and its discouraging to watch your heroes get smashed that bad, feeling so helpless. Thats why i think alot of protoss players are getting bored of gsl.
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There's too many games. I went from trying to watch every game including code A and up/down, to just code S, to just zerg games in code S. With all the foreign stuff going on I can't keep up.
On the other hand all the big foreign tournaments are weekend long lans with large crowds and tons of matches crammed into a short amount of time, and it's easier to get hyped up over compared to a season type format that the gsl employs.
Maybe they need to space it out more and allow an open pool to be directly seeded into the top 32 (or 64). OSL/MSL are like twice a year so having GSL nearly 12 times a year doesn't allow it to be hyped up as much and makes it feel more repetitive. They could also add different kinds of content between matches like bnet attack. Project A is a good step in that regard.
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Obviously, the fact that air Live at 2 AM PST has a lot to do with it. That, and there are A LOT of games per day. The frequent TvT is something that GomTV can't change.
That said, I have been paying subscription ever since GSL Season 2.
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Tho GSTL playoffs and finals are 300 times more exciting than GSL individual 
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On September 08 2011 06:29 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 06:20 plated.rawr wrote:
Coming from a fan of the BW proscene since 2006 or so...
I haven't really watched SC2GSL much, so I cannot say what I don't like about it specifically. I can say that no-name koreans playing each other isn't very attractive to me though, no matter what level of skill they bring.
For MLG on the other hand, I usually sit up all play hours, till around 8am local time. Two pretty central reasons to this, I think, are the players and the audience.
The players at MLG aren't just anonymous korean mechanic monsters - there's so many experienced players who's been with the international Starcraft scene for so long, with a massive history, both good and bad, behind them. The players feels a lot more alive, and while their gameplay is excellent, it's not perfect, and it is thus a lot easier to cheer for and empathise with them. They represent the geek dream we all sometimes sit with - "Hey, that guy could be me, dude!".
The audience is what interested me with BW originally. I think I saw a Blizzcon 2006 between Savior and... someone. At the time, my only real experience with BW was my own casual playing over the years, so I was pretty flabbergasted by the crowd enthusiasm and caster hyping. Together, they created a really special ambience that I've since seen in big korean and foreign BW events.
So yea, that's about it. Personality and ambience is what I like MLG and other foreign big events for. This common misconception that Koreans don't have personalities and are simply mechanical monsters is a little bit irritating. They have personalities. You'd be able to tell if you spent any time at all watching/reading interviews and/or keeping up with Milkis's Twitter (or even the Twitters of the players involved). Unfortunately, it seems that very few people do this and then go on to talk about how Koreans are just machines practicing 12 hours a day.
That's not my point. Yes, the korean players have a ton of personality, but currently there's a lot of SC2 events which means I have to pick what to watch instead of grab it all, and who do you think I would prefer following - the guys I've already followed for 5 years, or some new hotshots plus one or two oldies sprinkled in between? I've already gotten to 'know' the other players over five years, so of course I'm more interested in following their doings than some new guys from Korea doing basically the same thing as them.
It's an inherited familiarity from BW. If GSL sported more BW veterans than they're doing now, then I'd be watching it religiously, but the familiar faces are in the foreign scene, so there's the entertainment for me.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Or...
just get rid of Code S and Code A and have one tournament with seeds, just like every other tournament in the world. Why is GSL so needlessly complicated?
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I'm at the point where I just want to watch Code A mainly because I'm a protoss player who just wants to watch something Protoss related and there just aren't enough protoss in GSL to keep me interested.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On September 08 2011 06:32 L3gendary wrote:
There's too many games. I went from trying to watch every game including code A and up/down, to just code S, to just zerg games in code S. With all the foreign stuff going on I can't keep up.
On the other hand all the big foreign tournaments are weekend long lans with large crowds and tons of matches crammed into a short amount of time, and it's easier to get hyped up over compared to a season type format that the gsl employs.
Maybe they need to space it out more and allow an open pool to be directly seeded into the top 32 (or 64). OSL/MSL are like twice a year so having GSL nearly 12 times a year doesn't allow it to be hyped up as much and makes it feel more repetitive. They could also add different kinds of content between matches like bnet attack. Project A is a good step in that regard.
On September 08 2011 06:32 BirdKiller wrote:
Obviously, the fact that air Live at 2 AM PST has a lot to do with it.
It could be a combination of these two things, too. I mean, given that there is a lot of content, maybe people don't feel comfortable watching it all? I know that I play it in the background when doing other things at home, but I invest in a ticket every season to maintain reasonable sleep schedule. Not everyone has the luxury, which I'm sure makes it difficult for East Coast viewers at 5 am as well.
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On September 08 2011 06:30 EcstatiC wrote:
GSL is too abusive.
when you give them most creative and inventive players a full week to prepare for their matches, the builds they develop simply become too abusive of either the racial imbalances or their opponents weaknesses, so although it does produce high level games, a lot of the games in Code S, because the players want to win so much and have so much time to prepare, theyre not willing to risk playing entertaining games and produce entertaining SC2, rather they would just have a build order win that doesnt do anything for the crowd.
on the other hand, when players have to play 20 games against all different races, all within a weekend, they have no time to prepare for each match, then they start playing for standard openings, and produce longer, more entertaining games, since they just dont have the time to analyse an opponents playstyle and develop a build to counter. so to have abusive builds, they have to be developed and played essentially blind, which is a huge risk, and so you get players willing to rely more on playing standard games, and let their overall skill, whether it be micro and game or decision making take over, and thats where entertaining SC2 is produced.
This is a great post and certainly very possible. Interesting perspective
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On September 08 2011 06:08 latan wrote:
I can put my finger on it, it's because I can't stay up that late to watch live games.
Welcome to the world of EU, who have to stay up stupidly late to watch your MLGs.
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EPT
