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On September 02 2011 09:49 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:48 DEN1ED wrote:On September 02 2011 09:45 Chriscras wrote:
Okay but do we think Losira and Nestea split the GSL finals?
Because that would mean Nestea basically donated $30K to Losira in order to keep the peace O.O It wouldn't surprise me. Only a few seconds after being completely crushed 4-0, Losira was all smiles. So either they split or Losira takes an ass beating better than anyone I've ever seen. I don't think NesTea would chop with Losira, mostly because NesTea was the heavy favorite and Losira didn't really have a chance. However, it wouldn't surprise me at all if MVP and NesTea made a deal to split 60/40 or 55/45 at the Blizzcon finals if they both get there.
Yes, but they are good friends and teammates. Friends and teammates help each other out.
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On September 02 2011 09:48 hyptonic wrote:
think of all the shitty GSL finals
they could have all been split.
MarineKing is not sliver king, but splitking (money and marines)
Maybe you wouldn't try as hard because of money (hypothetically, honestly I don't think money is the important factor here), you would still try hard to not be an embarrassment. Can you imagine being Inca standing on that stage with Nestea after being slaughtered like it's never been seen before?
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On September 02 2011 09:50 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:42 Spacekyod wrote:
I scanned the first three pages and didn't see any response to SSG, but i am also very curious about this to. In the U.S. at least, how does this prize money splitting work out in the way of taxes? Expect the tournament to report the total amount of the prize winnings for first place as being paid to the first place player. If winner's tax return doesn't report the amount of income reported to the IRS by the tournament, they get IRS to deal with. Those who think there is no way to prove it can pay attention to this.
first place just has second place pitch into the taxes and reports the same income?
1st 50k
2nd 20k
70k * tax split between 2 people seems easy to figure out
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These agreements can be directly detrimental to effort and quality of play and therefore should be considered a blight on the sport. It is said that this practice is common, I can believe that as to my astonishment a lot of people in this thread seem to be ok with turning a blind eye to esports plunging into disrepute. If those players are outed, their reputation will take a deep knock in my eyes and their achievements will be put to scrutiny and dismissal. Even Nestea and Losira. If they had a gentlemen's agreement to share the money, then that final may as well have never happened, and as far as I'm concerned Nestea is only a two time champion. Until there's proof however, we can only believe what we choose to.
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On September 02 2011 09:50 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:42 Spacekyod wrote:
I scanned the first three pages and didn't see any response to SSG, but i am also very curious about this to. In the U.S. at least, how does this prize money splitting work out in the way of taxes? Expect the tournament to report the total amount of the prize winnings for first place as being paid to the first place player. If winner's tax return doesn't report the amount of income reported to the IRS by the tournament, they get IRS to deal with. Those who think there is no way to prove it can pay attention to this.
Except people's private tax returns aren't available to the public.
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On September 02 2011 09:38 coL.Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:33 Kaitlin wrote:
To Fayth and Minigun and any other "pros" that seem to think this is fine:
Do your team sponsors care all ALL about tournament results of the players they are investing in ? Are such results not posted on your team websites, and cited as your "credentials" for such things as providing coaching or doing promotional videos for whatever products your sponsors have?
You guys don't see a problem with SC2 credentials being little more than titles in professional wrestling ? Who says they still aren't trying to win? Just because two players agree to split the winnings, doesn't mean they play bad. If I were to split with a player I was going up against, I would still try my hardest, to get that #1 spot for my team or w/e.
You'll play your hardest until you feel beat. There's no desperation factor. Especially if there is no desire to please fans, there will be no resilience in the match. We don't need more Idra games where players leave at the first sign of defeat.
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Lol, this takes me back to my curling days. In the finals, more often than not we seemed to arrange a split with the other team. Then we owned them. Didn't really cause me to try less, and I doubt pro's would try less either. Winning is always important.
But imo, it's probably bad practice in a high stakes, high intensity thing like a starcraft 2 tourney finals.
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On September 02 2011 09:51 DEN1ED wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:49 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 09:48 DEN1ED wrote:On September 02 2011 09:45 Chriscras wrote:
Okay but do we think Losira and Nestea split the GSL finals?
Because that would mean Nestea basically donated $30K to Losira in order to keep the peace O.O It wouldn't surprise me. Only a few seconds after being completely crushed 4-0, Losira was all smiles. So either they split or Losira takes an ass beating better than anyone I've ever seen. I don't think NesTea would chop with Losira, mostly because NesTea was the heavy favorite and Losira didn't really have a chance. However, it wouldn't surprise me at all if MVP and NesTea made a deal to split 60/40 or 55/45 at the Blizzcon finals if they both get there. Yes, but they are good friends and teammates. Friends and teammates help each other out.
They've never really seemed all that chummy to me, but we'll never know. 
(I was also factoring NesTea's age into it. He has a girlfriend at the moment and is probably thinking about having a family as well, so if he was heavily favored, I see no reason to split from a financial perspective, and NesTea just seems very, very shrewd to me about these matters.)
It wouldn't surprise me if Ganzi, MMA, and Boxer divided up prize winnings after MLG, though. Or if Moon and Lyn decided to split the prize winnings from the WC3 WCG Korean qualifiers this year.
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In my eyes, I'd rather not see a super crazy and desperate finals because the guy in second place desperately needed money to pay rent and avoid being homeless and fall into debt.
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On September 02 2011 09:50 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:42 Spacekyod wrote:
I scanned the first three pages and didn't see any response to SSG, but i am also very curious about this to. In the U.S. at least, how does this prize money splitting work out in the way of taxes? Expect the tournament to report the total amount of the prize winnings for first place as being paid to the first place player. If winner's tax return doesn't report the amount of income reported to the IRS by the tournament, they get IRS to deal with. Those who think there is no way to prove it can pay attention to this.
You guys really have to just stop guessing at what the answers to these questions are. Please do a little googling!
The tax situation can be complicated, but overall is not difficult to figure out. I have an accountant do my poker tax returns, personally, but it is something you can do on your own with some research (and if the amount of money isn't going to cause problems with diff brackets, deductions ,etc.).
While most tournament cashes are accompanied by a W2, there is another form you can fill out if you share the prize/revenue with anyone else. If the house is facilitating the chop, they do the form right there for you and can adjust the payouts accordingly. If the house is not facilitating the chop, it's still not a big deal as there is a form you can do after the fact with the people sharing in your winnings. Usually with gambling this is a backer/horse arrangement.
In poker this is a 5754 form, but for other investments/business opportunities there are similar forms I believe (research this for yourself as I can't cite anything on it right now). I'm not a tax expert (thus why I pay an accountant to do it), but in my experience and from what I've learned, there are no legal issues in having the W2 from tournament winnings disagree with what you file on the return AS LONG AS you fill out the proper forms and take the correct steps (and aren't doing it in a fraudulent way). I have an accountant do it simply to be better safe than sorry and the cost isn't prohibitive.
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The incident with TT1 throwing a game shouldn't be an argument against splitting, it should just be held against TT1. He clearly isn't a true competitor and that is sad. Could you imagine Naniwa agreeing to split and then not giving the match 110%? No, because he is a fucking hardcore competitor and wants win no matter what the prize.
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On September 02 2011 09:53 SKtheAnathema wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:50 Kaitlin wrote:On September 02 2011 09:42 Spacekyod wrote:
I scanned the first three pages and didn't see any response to SSG, but i am also very curious about this to. In the U.S. at least, how does this prize money splitting work out in the way of taxes? Expect the tournament to report the total amount of the prize winnings for first place as being paid to the first place player. If winner's tax return doesn't report the amount of income reported to the IRS by the tournament, they get IRS to deal with. Those who think there is no way to prove it can pay attention to this. first place just has second place pitch into the taxes and reports the same income? 1st 50k 2nd 20k 70k * tax split between 2 people seems easy to figure out
This isn't necessary unless you are sharing the winnings with an international player or with people from different countries. In poker, the usual arrangement, (if the 5754 isn't an option, for whatever reason), is that the winner will withhold a certain % (generally 25-35) to cover taxes from the backer. The backer still is responsible for his own tax return.
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This happens in poker all the time. So much so, the tournaments themselves facilitate it on the back end. They keep the variance huge for fan excitement, but they quietly facilitate much more favorable splits on the back end because it's prohibitive to long term player development to have such variant, top heavy prize pools.
I have an issue with the direct 50/50 splits, and game throwing, but I have zero issue with people coming to a 55/45 split, or a 60/40 split, agreement, because it lessons their risk and helps more players stay afloat in a hugely variant, top-heavy, prize environment.
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Evo2k4 Mick and RTD got first and second in soul 2 and split the pot while not playing their mains in the finals. There was some moaning about it and then people realized that if they didn't want it to happen again they should probably train hard and keep them from both making the finals in the future instead of QQing about it.
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On September 02 2011 09:53 SKtheAnathema wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:50 Kaitlin wrote:On September 02 2011 09:42 Spacekyod wrote:
I scanned the first three pages and didn't see any response to SSG, but i am also very curious about this to. In the U.S. at least, how does this prize money splitting work out in the way of taxes? Expect the tournament to report the total amount of the prize winnings for first place as being paid to the first place player. If winner's tax return doesn't report the amount of income reported to the IRS by the tournament, they get IRS to deal with. Those who think there is no way to prove it can pay attention to this. first place just has second place pitch into the taxes and reports the same income? 1st 50k 2nd 20k 70k * tax split between 2 people seems easy to figure out
I had begun to write a more detailed explanation of how this entire scenario could blow up if the IRS got involved, but I deleted it because if people want to do this shit, then so be it. Just be aware that the IRS offers 10% reward of taxes and penalties collected on information provided for people not paying taxes. Allegations like this pop up on forums and any one person could see an opportunity to drop a dime to the IRS, as there really is no reason not to and they get 10% of any collection.
Long story short of the part I deleted: This "deal making" situation results in either a player not reporting what the tournament reported that they won, or the second place player having an influx of cash which he is not reporting to the IRS (since first place would have paid taxes on it). Any followup investigation would inevitably lead to the IRS contacting the tournament to figure things out. If this activity is against the tournament rules, they can follow up with whatever consequences were agreed upon in entering the tournament, including requiring repayment of the prize money, potentially.
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This happens every magic the gathering pro tour. Players agree to split X% of their winnings with the team/test group/1 person etc. Small time mtg tourneys usually people split top 4 or w/e so they can draft their packs.
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I would be in favor of lowering the variance between a first and second place finish, but this just sounds too close to match fixing for my taste. For example:
NASL season 1 splits were 50k for first, 25k for second, 10k for third and 5k for fourth. To play through the entire season, lose to only THREE players, and trip out of $45,000 is insane. Splits that were more like "30k for 1st, 20k for second, 15k for third, 10k for fourth" and then distribute the leftovers between the 5-8th and 9-16th players would not only (likely) encourage greater participation in the tournament, but also decrease the financial "necessity" of situations like this arising.
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I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with splitting the prize pool. The 1st place winner is still gunna get more, fame, notoriety, more tournament points, and what not, whether or not there is a prizepool splitting or not.
But I don't think the very top tier pros would actually do this, possibly more mid tier pros would.
Edit: Also, it removes a lot of stress between teammates playing against each other for a significant split between prizepool, which removes a lot of stress, and allows better games sometimes.
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On September 02 2011 10:05 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:53 SKtheAnathema wrote:On September 02 2011 09:50 Kaitlin wrote:On September 02 2011 09:42 Spacekyod wrote:
I scanned the first three pages and didn't see any response to SSG, but i am also very curious about this to. In the U.S. at least, how does this prize money splitting work out in the way of taxes? Expect the tournament to report the total amount of the prize winnings for first place as being paid to the first place player. If winner's tax return doesn't report the amount of income reported to the IRS by the tournament, they get IRS to deal with. Those who think there is no way to prove it can pay attention to this. first place just has second place pitch into the taxes and reports the same income? 1st 50k 2nd 20k 70k * tax split between 2 people seems easy to figure out I had begun to write a more detailed explanation of how this entire scenario could blow up if the IRS got involved, but I deleted it because if people want to do this shit, then so be it. Just be aware that the IRS offers 10% reward of taxes and penalties collected on information provided for people not paying taxes. Allegations like this pop up on forums and any one person could see an opportunity to drop a dime to the IRS, as there really is no reason not to and they get 10% of any collection. Long story short of the part I deleted: This "deal making" situation results in either a player not reporting what the tournament reported that they won, or the second place player having an influx of cash which he is not reporting to the IRS (since first place would have paid taxes on it). Any followup investigation would inevitably lead to the IRS contacting the tournament to figure things out. If this activity is against the tournament rules, they can follow up with whatever consequences were agreed upon in entering the tournament, including requiring repayment of the prize money, potentially.
Did you even read what Karak said about poker tournaments? This is all facilitated, above board, with the blessing of the IRS (with proper forms). It doesn't HAVE to be illegal, or against the IRS's rules, it only becomes that when people whine about situation they can't possibly understand (because they don't make their living in a pot variant game).
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Brainling: Thats actually kinda different, in a poker tourny the money being played for was put there by the players themselves. In a SC2 tour the money is put there by sponsors and the like. They in turn want good PR on their product for doing that so sportsmanship is ranked pretty high. Wouldnt be good if it turns out an entire tournament with prices from say Intel was just smokes and mirrors and intel would probably not host that tour again.
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EPT
