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It's not match fixing because they're not deciding who's going to win the tournament, simply that they'll split the top prize win or lose. It's no different than if he promised his friends dinner if he wins.
And as for you geniuses thinking that it's match fixing because they talked about it before the tournament started, explain to me please how saying "Hey friend, when we meet in the tournament in the first round or in the finals, which we have no control over because we didn't fix the whole tournament, let's remove the stress from the games so we can produce better quality matches for the viewers" is match fixing.
And fyi, if a single fucking one of you pay ANY attention to the scene at all, you'll notice almost all pro players do better in practice games vs team mates than in tournaments with stress. So stop with the bullshit about how because nothings on the line the games will be shit. I'm not saying they're going to be the best games of all time, but you sure as hell can't say they'll be the worst.
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On September 02 2011 10:29 Nizzy wrote:
I'm almost positive that I read something that said 4K.Grubby & 4K.ToD were in the finals of a decent sized pot of $$$$ and they agreed to split the winnings for 1st and 2nd place. I honestly don't think this is a big deal at all as long as it's done between teammates.
You practice together, might be best online friends, might live together, might both have to give a certain % of the winnings to the team anyways.
ToD posted that in this thread lol. And it was for $30 k
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On September 02 2011 10:29 Nizzy wrote:
I'm almost positive that I read something that said 4K.Grubby & 4K.ToD were in the finals of a decent sized pot of $$$$ and they agreed to split the winnings for 1st and 2nd place. I honestly don't think this is a big deal at all as long as it's done between teammates.
You practice together, might be best online friends, might live together, might both have to give a certain % of the winnings to the team anyways.
Yes, ToD actually made a post earlier in this thread confirming it. He's also implied in another post that this was quite common in the Korean WC3 scene.
On September 02 2011 07:57 ToD wrote:
Splitting when meeting a teammate in finals of a tour is standard imo, ofcourse both players should feel as motivated to take the championship as usual otherwise the finals might be ruined, i remember splitting in the finals of at least 2 major tournaments in WC3 which i actually ended up winning, one of them actually was 30k$ for first prize, i kept my word, went to the bank and wired what was agreed to Grubby.
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United States2958 Posts
On September 02 2011 10:29 Desirous wrote:
It's not match fixing because they're not deciding who's going to win the tournament, simply that they'll split the top prize win or lose. It's no different than if he promised his friends dinner if he wins.
And as for you geniuses thinking that it's match fixing because they talked about it before the tournament started, explain to me please how saying "Hey friend, when we meet in the tournament in the first round or in the finals, which we have no control over because we didn't fix the whole tournament, let's remove the stress from the games so we can produce better quality matches for the viewers" is match fixing.
And fyi, if a single fucking one of you pay ANY attention to the scene at all, you'll notice almost all pro players do better in practice games vs team mates than in tournaments with stress. So stop with the bullshit about how because nothings on the line the games will be shit. I'm not saying they're going to be the best games of all time, but you sure as hell can't say they'll be the worst.
I think it's not what we think is important, but what the tournament sponsors think. They want integrity of the competition that they are sponsoring, as well as good play. They can't do much about quality of play, but they damn sure can assure integrity, and they have taken action in the past (MLG banning players from future tournaments). Nobody ever got banned for playing like shit, to my knowledge.
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Okay one big problem I see is a lot of people are either jumping to defend fenix or to denounce him as a thief when we've really heard nothing from his perspective.
As for the deal making, its not the same as match fixing. As a spectator I don't like the idea but you can't stop it from happening and I can understand why the players do it. The problem is when something silly happens like TT1 does a 1 base carrier build it cheapens the finals experience because of it, and I can see why people are upset.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On September 02 2011 10:29 Desirous wrote:
It's not match fixing because they're not deciding who's going to win the tournament, simply that they'll split the top prize win or lose. It's no different than if he promised his friends dinner if he wins.
And as for you geniuses thinking that it's match fixing because they talked about it before the tournament started, explain to me please how saying "Hey friend, when we meet in the tournament in the first round or in the finals, which we have no control over because we didn't fix the whole tournament, let's remove the stress from the games so we can produce better quality matches for the viewers" is match fixing.
And fyi, if a single fucking one of you pay ANY attention to the scene at all, you'll notice almost all pro players do better in practice games vs team mates than in tournaments with stress. So stop with the bullshit about how because nothings on the line the games will be shit. I'm not saying they're going to be the best games of all time, but you sure as hell can't say they'll be the worst.
The whole point of a tournament is to suss out who the better is UNDER PRESSURE. If not, then why bother at all with competitive tournaments? You can't just take one of the most important elements out and expect everything to be dandy.
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I wonder how progamers, as individuals, react to that almost 2/3 of TL-users are against price pool-splitting as it stands now?
Is it business as usual - the deal making continues in the shadows and nobody talks about it.
Or will they try to change people's minds over the issue, standing up for what they believe?
Or will they not try to not do price pool-splitting to please the fans.
I hope that whatever the progamers choose they choose what they believe is right and don't lie to the fans, silence or truth is much better.
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Okay, going 1base carrier is realy bad, but not because of the deal!
Losira and NesTea may have done this. I dont see a problem, because i'm sure that they played their best.
I always thing that i woue ld make some deal like that. Something like:
"Doesnt matter who win, we will spent the diferente between the prizes in some party"
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On September 02 2011 10:12 coL.Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:54 aksfjh wrote:On September 02 2011 09:38 coL.Minigun wrote:On September 02 2011 09:33 Kaitlin wrote:
To Fayth and Minigun and any other "pros" that seem to think this is fine:
Do your team sponsors care all ALL about tournament results of the players they are investing in ? Are such results not posted on your team websites, and cited as your "credentials" for such things as providing coaching or doing promotional videos for whatever products your sponsors have?
You guys don't see a problem with SC2 credentials being little more than titles in professional wrestling ? Who says they still aren't trying to win? Just because two players agree to split the winnings, doesn't mean they play bad. If I were to split with a player I was going up against, I would still try my hardest, to get that #1 spot for my team or w/e. You'll play your hardest until you feel beat. There's no desperation factor. Especially if there is no desire to please fans, there will be no resilience in the match. We don't need more Idra games where players leave at the first sign of defeat. 99% of the people would still play their hardest
But we can't know that, so we have to take these results with the knowledge that it's possible they weren't playing a final at all but rather a practice game, thus completely undermining the achievement in your mind.
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Tournaments should feel free to stipulate that these kinds of deals are not allowed if someone wishes to participate in their tournament and any violator would be breaking their contract and as such should be open to civil legal action.
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TT1: clearly you never even had any intention of winning, since you undeniably threw the game. As far as we know, you intentionally tried to broker a deal that would net you greater overall profit, since you felt you had little chance of beating your (clearly superior) teammate. With this knowledge, you decided to deceitfully pretend like it was fair if you "split the winnings" so you could guarantee your $2500 rather than getting stuck with the $500 you deserved.
It should also be noted that not only was there no guarantee that Fenix would accept the money had you won—many people culturally agree to these situations as a formality with no intention to act on either end—but that we'll never know if you would have even paid out either, especially considering you planned ahead of time to lose on purpose.
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If it's true that Fenix took the money after making a gentlemen's agreement, well two wrongs don't make a right. He was wrong to make a joke of the finals, and he was wrong to steal the money. And if it's proven, I will personally count that against his character.
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I kind of understand the fear that it will hurt the stakes and hype of the tournament finals, but I disagree.
I've got a question for those who are against this, do you think cash prizes would help basketball or football sporting events? I don't think so. Part of the appeal of college sports is that we can be sure most of them are doing it for the passion for competition because they are amateurs who aren't getting paid salaries. I'd get significantly more emotional for the guy who is tearing up on the main stage because he finally gets a major championship title rather than a sick pay check.
Also, from what I understand, players like huk and idra make significantly more money from salaries than they do from tournament winnings. The value of a championship is not in the prize itself but the glory, fame, marketability, and negotiating leverage a player gets for future teams and sponsors. Even if the prize disparity between 1st and 2nd is significantly reduced behind closed doors, the incentive to win is still there. I'd much rather see emotions running high because of the championship title and not the big cash payout.
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The one who wins the prize does whatever he wants with the money right ?
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On September 02 2011 10:47 billyX333 wrote:
I kind of understand the fear that it will hurt the stakes and hype of the tournament finals, but I disagree.
I've got a question for those who are against this, do you think cash prizes would help basketball or football sporting events? I don't think so. Part of the appeal of college sports is that we can be sure most of them are doing it for the passion for competition because they are amateurs who aren't getting paid salaries. I'd get significantly more emotional for the guy who is tearing up on the main stage because he finally gets a major championship title rather than a sick pay check.
Also, from what I understand, players like huk and idra make significantly more money from salaries than they do from tournament winnings. The value of a championship is not in the prize itself but the glory, fame, marketability, and negotiating leverage a player gets for future teams and sponsors. Even if the prize disparity between 1st and 2nd is significantly reduced behind closed doors, the incentive to win is still there. I'd much rather see emotions running high because of the championship title and not the big cash payout.
When TT1 threw his game against Fenix your entire argument was proven invalid and it was proven that it can and has effected play sorry
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On September 02 2011 10:49 Airship wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 10:47 billyX333 wrote:
I kind of understand the fear that it will hurt the stakes and hype of the tournament finals, but I disagree.
I've got a question for those who are against this, do you think cash prizes would help basketball or football sporting events? I don't think so. Part of the appeal of college sports is that we can be sure most of them are doing it for the passion for competition because they are amateurs who aren't getting paid salaries. I'd get significantly more emotional for the guy who is tearing up on the main stage because he finally gets a major championship title rather than a sick pay check.
Also, from what I understand, players like huk and idra make significantly more money from salaries than they do from tournament winnings. The value of a championship is not in the prize itself but the glory, fame, marketability, and negotiating leverage a player gets for future teams and sponsors. Even if the prize disparity between 1st and 2nd is significantly reduced behind closed doors, the incentive to win is still there. I'd much rather see emotions running high because of the championship title and not the big cash payout. When TT1 threw his game against Fenix your entire argument was proven invalid and it was proven that it can and has effected play sorry
You didn't understand the argument then sorry
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When finalists are teammates, give them a car instead of cash. Or make the prize impossible to split [shares of stock in the name of one player??? I dunno].
@Kaitlin: Don't the [bigger] hosts usually pay the final prize/income tax? So that first prize is actually 6K, but 1K goes to the accountants and the 5k to the player?
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On September 02 2011 10:47 Airship wrote:
If it's true that Fenix took the money after making a gentlemen's agreement, well two wrongs don't make a right. He was wrong to make a joke of the finals, and he was wrong to steal the money. And if it's proven, I will personally count that against his character.
He made a joke of the finals because he won. Hot diggity dang.
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On September 02 2011 10:50 billyX333 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 10:49 Airship wrote:On September 02 2011 10:47 billyX333 wrote:
I kind of understand the fear that it will hurt the stakes and hype of the tournament finals, but I disagree.
I've got a question for those who are against this, do you think cash prizes would help basketball or football sporting events? I don't think so. Part of the appeal of college sports is that we can be sure most of them are doing it for the passion for competition because they are amateurs who aren't getting paid salaries. I'd get significantly more emotional for the guy who is tearing up on the main stage because he finally gets a major championship title rather than a sick pay check.
Also, from what I understand, players like huk and idra make significantly more money from salaries than they do from tournament winnings. The value of a championship is not in the prize itself but the glory, fame, marketability, and negotiating leverage a player gets for future teams and sponsors. Even if the prize disparity between 1st and 2nd is significantly reduced behind closed doors, the incentive to win is still there. I'd much rather see emotions running high because of the championship title and not the big cash payout. When TT1 threw his game against Fenix your entire argument was proven invalid and it was proven that it can and has effected play sorry You didn't understand the argument then sorry
I understand that you think progamers will play their hearts out regardless of money and that TT1 proved you wrong. I am not missing anything.
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On September 02 2011 09:36 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:33 Shinobi1982 wrote:
Ok, I didn´t want to really comment on this because we only know one side of the story so far, but here it goes...
Is Fenix familiar with the concept of chopping the prize pot (has he done it before or knows `how it works`)? If so then he is at fault.
On the other hand if has no clue that deals like this are being made. And TT1 asks, wanna chop the pot? Fenix can (while in a happy mood because he is in the finals with his teammate) say `sure`, all smiley and everything. TT1 thinking the deal is struck. And when it comes to money distribution and TT1 asks for his share, I can totally see Fenix say ´Are you f_ckin serious?´.
If they went to the team before the games were played and made the `deal` then it´s obvious what happened.
Right now it´s TT1´s word against... well we haven´t heard what Fenix has to say about it and thats why I didn´t want to comment on this in the first place. Yet so many people jumping to conclusions not knowing both sides of the story. Xeris apparently has emails confirming it. Someone should message him so he can make this entire thing a PR disaster.
me and fenix went over this for hours actually, it wasnt a one time talk.. after the tournament ended while we were in the airport he kept telling me that he wasnt gonna go throught with the split but i thought he was joking, once i got back home he started saying he didnt understand wat i was saying cus his english is bad and wasnt going to go through with the split
i wouldnt be so persistent if i wasnt sure about wat i was talking about, unlike a huge portion of the tl posters i dont talk out of my ass and risk tarnishing someones name just for the fun of it
and i find it funny how everyone is saying i threw 1 game, u wernt in my head so u cant comment on the matter
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EPT
