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MyNameWuzBoB
57 Posts
On September 02 2011 10:49 Airship wrote: When TT1 threw his game against Fenix your entire argument was proven invalid and it was proven that it can and has effected play sorry It shouldn't have effective his play though. There is still incentive to win. Just because he was foolish doesn't mean 100% in all cases it will affect play. | ||
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RoarMan
Canada745 Posts
"Deal-making" doesn't imply that the two players are fixing the outcome of the finals, they're just splitting the prize no matter the outcome. It doesn't really hinder the competitive aspect imo, if anything it's just an idealistic business decision, players need to eat too. | ||
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billyX333
United States1360 Posts
On September 02 2011 10:51 Airship wrote: I understand that you think progamers will play their hearts out regardless of money and that TT1 proved you wrong. I am not missing anything. My primary point is that the incentive to win is there not because of the prizepool. Bringing up a case to the contrary doesn't invalidate any argument. I'm making an argument for what is the case for most progamers. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
On September 02 2011 10:55 billyX333 wrote: My primary point is that the incentive to win is there not because of the prizepool. Bringing up a case to the contrary doesn't invalidate any argument. I'm making an argument for what is the case for most progamers. But he provides evidence for his post, when you present none for your own. | ||
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Airship
United States465 Posts
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
I hope and expect that tournaments that wish to be viewed as serious and legitimate competition will take a strong stance against such arrangements. I also hope that they will reconsider the distribution of funds in their prize pools so that it can better reflect the distribution of skill among the participants, though I also understand the economic rationale for the current, top-heavy prize pools. | ||
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Brian333
657 Posts
If two players don't want to compete over money, that is fine. That is not to say they aren't still competing over other things (for example, for MLG, you are also competing for Code A / S spots). That and this only seems relevant to situations where both players are genuinely evenly matched. Otherwise, how do you go about suggesting to the person that's heavily favored to win that in the event that he does indeed win, that he give his prize money to you? Or, if you're the one heavily favored to win, why would you go to the underdog with that offer? Also, there will also be people of extreme self confidence that believe that they don't need to accept any such offer because they will be winning. So, it just seems to me that this is a small and isolated situation. | ||
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HydraLF
Hong Kong626 Posts
All they did was agreed to split the prize which is theirs they can do all they want. What make you say they aren't playing at their best? Is that part of the agreement? How would you know ppl play at their best if they are not making agreements, will that be match fixing as well? Was whitera match fixing when he didnt show up to his open bracket match? Was He match fixin when he won 2-0 defending worker rush in loser open bracket of Anaheim? | ||
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tsuxiit
1305 Posts
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sickle
New Zealand656 Posts
Its impossible to stop this from happening anyway. | ||
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Medrea
10003 Posts
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Sabre
United Kingdom1086 Posts
On September 02 2011 10:45 puzzl wrote: TT1: clearly you never even had any intention of winning, since you undeniably threw the game. As far as we know, you intentionally tried to broker a deal that would net you greater overall profit, since you felt you had little chance of beating your (clearly superior) teammate. With this knowledge, you decided to deceitfully pretend like it was fair if you "split the winnings" so you could guarantee your $2500 rather than getting stuck with the $500 you deserved. It should also be noted that not only was there no guarantee that Fenix would accept the money had you won—many people culturally agree to these situations as a formality with no intention to act on either end—but that we'll never know if you would have even paid out either, especially considering you planned ahead of time to lose on purpose. This is so ridiculously stupid on a number of fronts. Firstly, both were very equally matched at the time of the match last December (imo) and so that "conspiracy" is out of the window.TT1 is also a PvT expert iirc (clarification someone?) Of course, everyone here that says this is blatant match-fixing are in the wrong imo. This isn't because it didnt matter if TT1 tried his hardest to win or if he "threw the game", as far as he was aware during the finals he was going to get the same money regardless. Do I agree with it as a spectator and ESPORTS enthusiast? of course not. That doesn't of course mean I disagree with the whole idea of prize-splitting, I disagree with the inevitable lowering of game quality. The deals mentioned by ToD from his WC3 days or any potential splits between NesTea and LosirA are also far less noticable due to the prestige and fame of winning such tournaments. Of course anything compromising the quality of finals is definitely not sustainable in terms of keeping viewership high and sponsors interested, which is of course what is allowing such players to play sc2 professionally in the first-place and so on that front I agree that something needs to be done... One last point. In my eyes, you are all so quick to defend Fenix due to TT1 "throwing the game". However, do you think it's right that, if TT1 had won, that Fenix would demand the split of the $15k? (even though he had no intentions of splitting the money if he himself won(of course this is what happened)). Just some things to think about | ||
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Airship
United States465 Posts
On September 02 2011 11:00 sickle wrote: Its impossible to stop this from happening anyway. regardless of how you feel, this is not a justification | ||
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billyX333
United States1360 Posts
On September 02 2011 10:57 DonKey_ wrote: But he provides evidence for his post, when you present none for your own. Evidence for my argument? My argument was that the incentive to win is there regardless of prize pool. Why the fuck would anybody compete in MLG. The only players who will on average net a profit from flying across the globe to MLG would be the 4 koreans put in group play. Everyone else is playing for love for the game, competition, or for sponsors. Just because players like TT1 ignore all incentives except for cash prizes doesn't invalidate any argument. All it does is prove there are idiots out there who don't give a shit about the game or competition. TT1 proved that a long time ago. Thats why TT1 will probably never have fans and that's also why he should go find a new job anyway if all he wants is cash | ||
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MyNameWuzBoB
57 Posts
On September 02 2011 11:00 Medrea wrote: Of course deal making is the same as match fixing. Spectators get robbed of a legit SC2 match. Whats the diff? Because there is still incentive to win when a deal is made. You still get the trophy, recognition, fame, sponsors etc. that goes with winning a tournament. Match fixing is totally different. The winner when a deal is made is not predetermined. | ||
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SKtheAnathema
United States885 Posts
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Medrea
10003 Posts
On September 02 2011 09:48 hyptonic wrote: think of all the shitty GSL finals they could have all been split. MarineKing is not sliver king, but splitking (money and marines) Maybe this is true. Maybe it was also true in BW then? Wow I never thought of it that way. Whenever I see terrible finals I am definitley going to suspect prize fixing or splitting now. Thats disgusting. Maybe we should have it so SC2 tournaments the top 2 places have the same winnings? | ||
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
On September 02 2011 07:37 Gamegene wrote: Honestly I think the answer is fairly obvious: duh. Better question is how can we prevent it from happening? Pretty sure those guilty would a choose to stream the skype call and disclose a deal. I agree that it is common sense for a lot of us. However, given the comments made in the thread on Fenix signing with IM, it would seem that a lot of people aren't concerned about throwing matches under these circumstances. | ||
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Kaitlin
United States2958 Posts
On September 02 2011 10:50 maryelizbethwinstead wrote: @Kaitlin: Don't the [bigger] hosts usually pay the final prize/income tax? So that first prize is actually 6K, but 1K goes to the accountants and the 5k to the player? What you are thinking of is a straight % withheld from the winnings, which an entity would pay over to the IRS in certain circumstances. This is merely a "payment" on behalf of the winner-recipient. It's not a calculation of the amount of taxes that person owes on the winnings. To figure that out, the player files their annual income tax return with the entire amount of the winnings reported as income (to match the amount that the tournament reported to the IRS that was paid) and the player includes the amount "withheld" by the tournament as a "payment" made, much like withholding of income taxes from wages we earn at our jobs. So, in your example, the $1k is simply a "pre-payment" of the tax the person has yet to pay. Depending on their personal income tax situation, they may owe less or more. | ||
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