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Should "Deal Making" be illegal? - Page 22

Forum Index > SC2 General
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FoeHamr
Profile Joined December 2010
United States489 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-02 02:10:28
September 02 2011 02:07 GMT
#421
I honestly think its up to the players. If they want to split it why shouldn't they be able to split it? The fact that we get to watch them compete for money is just a nice plus we get from streams. To make a long story short, its their money and they can do whatever the fuck they want with it.

Just my personal opinion. I can see why you would be against it, but respectfully disagree
EDIT: To clarify, i'm not for it or against it.
I got 99 problems and a Terran ain't one
Beakyboo
Profile Joined May 2010
United States485 Posts
September 02 2011 02:07 GMT
#422
Prize money aside, tournament results are still important to a sc2 pro's career. Coming first in a big tournament is going to get a lot more hype for you than second, and has a good chance to indirectly earn you more money in the future. Even in deal making situations, I don't see how this removes the incentive to win at all. It's just safety insurance in a risky industry, which seems fairly reasonable to me when these guys aren't really making a ton of money.
PartyBiscuit
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada4525 Posts
September 02 2011 02:08 GMT
#423
On September 02 2011 11:06 Medrea wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 02 2011 09:48 hyptonic wrote:
think of all the shitty GSL finals

they could have all been split.

MarineKing is not sliver king, but splitking (money and marines)


Maybe this is true. Maybe it was also true in BW then?

Wow I never thought of it that way. Whenever I see terrible finals I am definitley going to suspect prize fixing or splitting now.

Thats disgusting. Maybe we should have it so SC2 tournaments the top 2 places have the same winnings?

....

Nobody wants to get swept in humiliation. GSL finals, especially with the Korean scene and what they dealt with in BW, is almost guaranteed none of that.
the farm ends here
StutteR
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1903 Posts
September 02 2011 02:10 GMT
#424
Splits mostly happen between teammate...
`~` | effOrt Movie sKyHigh forever & SEn
Kaitlin
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2958 Posts
September 02 2011 02:11 GMT
#425
If players are willing to "make deals", and the winner of the match doesn't matter, as long as they "play their best", what's to stand in the way of earning some side cash by throwing (as a heavily favored player) a match so some gambler and win a bunch of bets and give the player a cut ? If the discrepancy of the prize pool is taken out of the equation, and it's only the "fame" or whatever from winning vs. losing, then why not throw the games for even more cash ?
MyNameWuzBoB
Profile Joined June 2011
57 Posts
September 02 2011 02:11 GMT
#426
On September 02 2011 11:06 Medrea wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 02 2011 09:48 hyptonic wrote:
think of all the shitty GSL finals

they could have all been split.

MarineKing is not sliver king, but splitking (money and marines)


Maybe this is true. Maybe it was also true in BW then?

Wow I never thought of it that way. Whenever I see terrible finals I am definitley going to suspect prize fixing or splitting now.

Thats disgusting. Maybe we should have it so SC2 tournaments the top 2 places have the same winnings?


If they were throwing games then you'd think they'd make the finals more interesting rather than them all being 4-0.
nalgene
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada2153 Posts
September 02 2011 02:12 GMT
#427
It didn't seem like he was trying to win in one of the games and it sort of robs the spectators of a possibly amazing final to something that was let fulfilling. It wasn't like they signed a contract instead of just an agreement that they could break off of at any point in time. Choose someone more devious and you'll hold the blade that kills you...
Year 2500 Greater Israel ( Bahrain, Cyprus, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Gaza Strip, West Bank, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, Yemen )
Airship
Profile Joined August 2010
United States465 Posts
September 02 2011 02:13 GMT
#428
On September 02 2011 11:02 billyX333 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 02 2011 10:57 DonKey_ wrote:
On September 02 2011 10:55 billyX333 wrote:
On September 02 2011 10:51 Airship wrote:
On September 02 2011 10:50 billyX333 wrote:
On September 02 2011 10:49 Airship wrote:
On September 02 2011 10:47 billyX333 wrote:
I kind of understand the fear that it will hurt the stakes and hype of the tournament finals, but I disagree.

I've got a question for those who are against this, do you think cash prizes would help basketball or football sporting events? I don't think so. Part of the appeal of college sports is that we can be sure most of them are doing it for the passion for competition because they are amateurs who aren't getting paid salaries. I'd get significantly more emotional for the guy who is tearing up on the main stage because he finally gets a major championship title rather than a sick pay check.

Also, from what I understand, players like huk and idra make significantly more money from salaries than they do from tournament winnings. The value of a championship is not in the prize itself but the glory, fame, marketability, and negotiating leverage a player gets for future teams and sponsors. Even if the prize disparity between 1st and 2nd is significantly reduced behind closed doors, the incentive to win is still there. I'd much rather see emotions running high because of the championship title and not the big cash payout.


When TT1 threw his game against Fenix your entire argument was proven invalid and it was proven that it can and has effected play sorry

You didn't understand the argument then sorry


I understand that you think progamers will play their hearts out regardless of money and that TT1 proved you wrong. I am not missing anything.

My primary point is that the incentive to win is there not because of the prizepool. Bringing up a case to the contrary doesn't invalidate any argument. I'm making an argument for what is the case for most progamers.


But he provides evidence for his post, when you present none for your own.

Evidence for my argument? My argument was that the incentive to win is there regardless of prize pool. Why the fuck would anybody compete in MLG. The only players who will on average net a profit from flying cross country to MLG would be the 4 koreans put in group play. Everyone else is playing for love for the game, competition, or for sponsors.

Just because players like TT1 ignores all incentives except for cash prizes doesn't invalidate any argument. All it does is prove there are idiots out there who don't give a shit about the game or competition. TT1 proved that a long time ago. Thats why TT1 will probably never have fans and that's also why he should go find a new job anyway if all he wants is cash


Tell me this, then. When players plan on splitting the money, why don't they announce it before the match rather than try to keep it quiet? I suggest it's because they realise it looks shady as fuck. Or, maybe they know the fans will be enraged. So they either know they are disappointing their fans when they do it, or they consider it a dishonest action. What chivalry. Ironically*, total transparency of their intentions before the match is played would be a sign of a clean conscience, and the silence will be taken for an admission of guilt. (*disclaimer: not actual irony)

I'm sure this point can be argued. What are you going to come up with?
AdreN-
Profile Joined November 2010
United States503 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-02 02:17:06
September 02 2011 02:14 GMT
#429
On September 02 2011 10:59 tsuxiit wrote:
Isn't this the definition of match fixing in that it "fixes" the results of a tournament? Regardless of what you call it, it's completely anti-competition and the fact that TT1 even tries to justify it is disgusting. This isn't what the game is about, for fucks sake. It's the exact mentality that someone who used to maphack would have.

This isn't match fixing because the winner wasn't pre-determined (results weren't "fixed"). However, psychologically it's got to make you relax more if you know you're getting 7.5K whether you win or lose. The best solution in these situations is a 55/45 split or something similar. The main issue is the prize disparity in SC2 tournaments, (GSL 46K-1st and 18K-2nd... IPL 30K-1st 12K-2nd). If I were a player I would DEFINITELY do some kind of split if I didn't think I had a big edge on my opponent, which you generally don't in SC2.

Also, as many pros have already mentioned, you would still try your hardest in most situations even if it was a 50/50 split because of the prestige of winning the event. However, this is a unique situation in which there was big money on the table for an event nobody really cares about or has heard of.
Tula
Profile Joined December 2010
Austria1544 Posts
September 02 2011 02:15 GMT
#430
In my humble opinion people are mixing up 2 different debates here.

"deals" between teammates (or friends, hell even simply between 2 players) are not a problem as long as the players stick to doing their best. As many people have said it is common practice in some sports to give almost all of your prize money to the team and live from your salary. That isn't much different is it?

The problematic area is, when people start to be douches about it and not give their best in the final. As long as they play their best after making the deal i have absolutly no problem with it. Hell if the tournament winner decides to give all the prizemoney to the 2nd place guy because he will get a sponsor bonus anyway i couldn't care less.

What i care about is clean gameplay. Frankly i lost a lot of respect for TT1 in this debate, not because he was willing to cut a deal, but because he was an idiot during the games itself.
Medrea
Profile Joined May 2011
10003 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-02 02:15:26
September 02 2011 02:15 GMT
#431
On September 02 2011 11:11 MyNameWuzBoB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 02 2011 11:06 Medrea wrote:
On September 02 2011 09:48 hyptonic wrote:
think of all the shitty GSL finals

they could have all been split.

MarineKing is not sliver king, but splitking (money and marines)


Maybe this is true. Maybe it was also true in BW then?

Wow I never thought of it that way. Whenever I see terrible finals I am definitley going to suspect prize fixing or splitting now.

Thats disgusting. Maybe we should have it so SC2 tournaments the top 2 places have the same winnings?


If they were throwing games then you'd think they'd make the finals more interesting rather than them all being 4-0.


I still think there should be no monetary incentive (but additional incentives) for 1st vs 2nd place.

I think especially after reading what ToD was saying I think I feel like I was robbed of a minor part of my life. I thought pro's were playing for keeps!

That was a good tournament
twitch.tv/medrea
MyNameWuzBoB
Profile Joined June 2011
57 Posts
September 02 2011 02:15 GMT
#432
On September 02 2011 11:11 Kaitlin wrote:
If players are willing to "make deals", and the winner of the match doesn't matter, as long as they "play their best", what's to stand in the way of earning some side cash by throwing (as a heavily favored player) a match so some gambler and win a bunch of bets and give the player a cut ? If the discrepancy of the prize pool is taken out of the equation, and it's only the "fame" or whatever from winning vs. losing, then why not throw the games for even more cash ?


Can't see too many big gamblers interested in Starcraft, just for the reasons you stated alone. Too prone to rigging.
Engore
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1916 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-02 02:17:58
September 02 2011 02:15 GMT
#433
I'm pretty sure if this happened in professional sports they would never get to play again. E-sports should be no different.

A simple phrase that often goes through my head when competition discussion arises is "you play to win the game"

Obviously people play for money as well, especially when it's the means for your living. But to split your winnings regardless of who wins seems very dishonorable. Essentially it doesn't matter who wins. You both share the silver medal. Neither is the victor.

The spirit of e-sports and sports is competition. This sort of under-handed dealing only hurts the scene because it completely negates competition. You simply put down your shield and sword, letting any gladiator slice you with a plastic weapon.

Prize money could be looked at like a medal. You win the tournament and you get that nice big fancy check for $50,000. When your completing the deal and splitting the money do you bring along a blow torch to cut the gold medal in half?
EG | Liquid | Dignitas | FXO | SlayerS | TSL | iS | Fan of pretty much all players ^_^ | SeleCT <3 forever! Axslav <3
Steel
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Japan2283 Posts
September 02 2011 02:15 GMT
#434
If it's two teammates in the finals and they want to split prizes, no problem. I think they still have to play the game and try to give a good show though.
Try another route paperboy.
epikAnglory
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States1120 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-02 02:18:44
September 02 2011 02:16 GMT
#435
Lmao if both players agree then the finalists must fucking suck so bad to the point where they are not confident of winning. I doubt this crap is for friendly matches and environment, just both players are insecure in winning.

I couldn't care less if it was illegal or not, but if this is what SC2 finalists are doing then I am disappointed. Gamble $5000? Excuse me what that is what a tournament is for, you reward the better player, AKA the championship of the tournament, not the finalists. Sorry but this is a competitive environment and if you feel insecure about "gambling", please get out of the professional competition scene.

Also cut the fallacies assuming the players will still try their best.
710+ Posts with a Probe Icon =D
Medrea
Profile Joined May 2011
10003 Posts
September 02 2011 02:17 GMT
#436
On September 02 2011 11:15 Steel wrote:
If it's two teammates in the finals and they want to split prizes, no problem. I think they still have to play the game and try to give a good show though.


But that's against the grain of competition. I don't wanna be watching SC2 in the future and all the finals are just people worker rushing eachother every game because they already have a backroom deal where they get paid the same.

The hammer must be brought down.
twitch.tv/medrea
Risen
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States7927 Posts
September 02 2011 02:19 GMT
#437
Why create this drama phrase in the first place? Just say do you think splitting is wrong, end if story. You're being sensationalist.
Pufftrees Everyday>its like a rifter that just used X-Factor/Liquid'Nony: I hope no one lip read XD/Holyflare>it's like policy lynching but better/Resident Los Angeles bachelor
GhostKorean
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States2330 Posts
September 02 2011 02:19 GMT
#438
What if a sponsor makes a player give 100% of his earnings to the sponsor and the sponsor gives the player a yearly salary for his play? Wouldn't that also ruin the spirit of competition because the player is less concerned over whether he wins first or second?
Medrea
Profile Joined May 2011
10003 Posts
September 02 2011 02:19 GMT
#439
On September 02 2011 11:16 epikAnglory wrote:
Lmao if both players agree then the finalists must fucking suck so bad to the point where they are not confident of winning. I doubt this crap is for friendly matches and environment, just both players are insecure in winning.

I couldn't care less if it was illegal or not, but if this is what SC2 finalists are doing then I am disappointed. Gamble $5000? Excuse me what that is what a tournament is for, you reward the better player, AKA the championship of the tournament, not the finalists. Sorry but this is a competitive environment and if you feel insecure about "gambling", please get out of the professional competition scene.


Gambling is different. When it affects the play of the players. We have a problem. When players get involved, it breaks the game entirely.

Look at baseball. Baseball nearly died to match fixing because gamblers got a hold of that sport.
twitch.tv/medrea
epikAnglory
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States1120 Posts
September 02 2011 02:20 GMT
#440
On September 02 2011 11:19 Medrea wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 02 2011 11:16 epikAnglory wrote:
Lmao if both players agree then the finalists must fucking suck so bad to the point where they are not confident of winning. I doubt this crap is for friendly matches and environment, just both players are insecure in winning.

I couldn't care less if it was illegal or not, but if this is what SC2 finalists are doing then I am disappointed. Gamble $5000? Excuse me what that is what a tournament is for, you reward the better player, AKA the championship of the tournament, not the finalists. Sorry but this is a competitive environment and if you feel insecure about "gambling", please get out of the professional competition scene.


Gambling is different. When it affects the play of the players. We have a problem. When players get involved, it breaks the game entirely.

Look at baseball. Baseball nearly died to match fixing because gamblers got a hold of that sport.

I was quoting the OP of gambling, if you noticed the quotation marks it shows I don't agree with that term as well.
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