|
On September 02 2011 09:30 HoldenR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:27 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:24 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:20 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:16 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:12 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:07 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:00 ReignFayth wrote:
how anyone can mix up match fixing and deal making completely baffles me How a "pro" can defend the concept of throwing games completely baffles me. You are extremely biased as a player. It is up to the spectators to decide whether this is matchmaking or not, not you. And let's face it, considering TT1 threw the game, it meets the very definition of matchmaking in this case. I think it should be handled on a case by case basis. This is obviously a case of blatant match fixing. Deal with it. dude players are usually both spectators and players, you see different players competing all the time, other pros watch them and NONE of them give a shit if they split the prize and let's assume TT1 threw 1 game, it wouldn't even be matchmaking, they didn't agree that TT1 would throw a game, he just decided to be a moron about it, I'm also assuming this wasn't a BO1 final, so people seem to have put aside the other games played, maybe this 1 base carrier build had worked previously It doesn't matter if you're a spectator too. The fact that this could happen to you in person means you are heavily biased in favor. Sorry, no go. And really, assume? He basically admitted it. That is matchmaking. Matchmaking is the process of deciding a match between two competitors before it happens, which this obviously did because there is no way he would go with that build if he hadn't made the agreement. And honestly, a pro defending this behavior by saying that a 1base carrier build "worked previously" honestly goes to show why your opinion isn't valid for this. Keep this practice in poker if you want, I could not give less of a damn. Do not bring it here. no they haven't decided on the games, they decided to split the money period. what happened then is TT1 decided to do a stupid strategy that may or may not have worked you're mixing things up And I was not, as I explained in my post, opposed to this if it doesn't take the competitive spirit out of the game. I want to see good games. TT1 threw the fucking game because he knew he'd get the same money anyway, and although fenix may or may not have been on it(that was not clarified, was it?), at that point it became matchmaking. They took the competition out because the only thing TT1 cared about was the money. At that point, it stops being fun for spectators, and as soon as this becomes common practice(not the splitting of money - but the throwing of games, agreed or not), SC2 is dead in the water. can you point out any other finals where you saw someone throw a match? cuz I can guarantee you there was a lot more than this tourney where people have split the prize money weirdly enough, nobody ever cared about it And that is my point. I said it should be case by case, and in this case, it should count as matchfixing, both players should be banned from competitive play, and the money should be withheld. If it has no outcome on the game, at least as far as we know, I don't mind it. Good games are what count. They can wipe their ass with the prize money if they want to, as long as they deliver us games worthy of the money. How can you disagree with that? And you honestly shouldn't be defending the strategy. Come on.
jesus you can't even prove it was match fixing
what about the game Huk played against select where he went 1 base mothership, was that match fixing?
|
it's the player's life. it's their money, their only source of income. their isn't any rules about it so they can do whatever the fuck they want. obviously as a spectator you'd be pissed. but to reemphasize, this is their life.
besides, from what i've read in this thread, many people do this. there is no way to stop this.
i'm postive it's happened in big matches before and none of you have noticed. why the fuck does it matter? money aside, the players would still want to win because of; the game itself (you still get emotions when you play games with your friends), pride, sponsorships, exposure, qualification etc etc. you're still seeing top level play. this isn't match fixing.
|
Ok, I didn´t want to really comment on this because we only know one side of the story so far, but here it goes...
Is Fenix familiar with the concept of chopping the prize pot (has he done it before or knows `how it works`)? If so then he is at fault.
On the other hand if has no clue that deals like this are being made. And TT1 asks, wanna chop the pot? Fenix can (while in a happy mood because he is in the finals with his teammate) say `sure`, all smiley and everything. TT1 thinking the deal is struck. And when it comes to money distribution and TT1 asks for his share, I can totally see Fenix say ´Are you f_ckin serious?´.
If they went to the team before the games were played and made the `deal` then it´s obvious what happened.
Right now it´s TT1´s word against... well we haven´t heard what Fenix has to say about it and thats why I didn´t want to comment on this in the first place. Yet so many people jumping to conclusions not knowing both sides of the story.
|
To Fayth and Minigun and any other "pros" that seem to think this is fine:
Do your team sponsors care all ALL about tournament results of the players they are investing in ? Are such results not posted on your team websites, and cited as your "credentials" for such things as providing coaching or doing promotional videos for whatever products your sponsors have?
You guys don't see a problem with SC2 credentials being little more than titles in professional wrestling ?
|
I think it's wrong and I voted yes for both. However I somewhat empathize with players who do it just because I know a lot of them forfeit getting jobs or going to school because they have to constantly practice. They may need to make sure they get a steady income. At the same time though, if they're the type of player who finishes in the top 5 of tourneys then they're probably already getting a decent amount.
I stand by my opinion that it is wrong, and as a viewer it's upsetting because I'm sure the matches would be much more competitive.
|
A team splitting money sounds fine to me.
Throwing the games by doing bs builds is stupid though, you should play fun exciting games at least.
|
On September 02 2011 09:33 Shinobi1982 wrote:
Ok, I didn´t want to really comment on this because we only know one side of the story so far, but here it goes...
Is Fenix familiar with the concept of chopping the prize pot (has he done it before or knows `how it works`)? If so then he is at fault.
On the other hand if has no clue that deals like this are being made. And TT1 asks, wanna chop the pot? Fenix can (while in a happy mood because he is in the finals with his teammate) say `sure`, all smiley and everything. TT1 thinking the deal is struck. And when it comes to money distribution and TT1 asks for his share, I can totally see Fenix say ´Are you f_ckin serious?´.
If they went to the team before the games were played and made the `deal` then it´s obvious what happened.
Right now it´s TT1´s word against... well we haven´t heard what Fenix has to say about it and thats why I didn´t want to comment on this in the first place. Yet so many people jumping to conclusions not knowing both sides of the story.
Xeris apparently has emails confirming it. Someone should message him so he can make this entire thing a PR disaster.
|
On September 02 2011 09:32 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:30 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:27 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:24 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:20 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:16 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:12 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:07 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:00 ReignFayth wrote:
how anyone can mix up match fixing and deal making completely baffles me How a "pro" can defend the concept of throwing games completely baffles me. You are extremely biased as a player. It is up to the spectators to decide whether this is matchmaking or not, not you. And let's face it, considering TT1 threw the game, it meets the very definition of matchmaking in this case. I think it should be handled on a case by case basis. This is obviously a case of blatant match fixing. Deal with it. dude players are usually both spectators and players, you see different players competing all the time, other pros watch them and NONE of them give a shit if they split the prize and let's assume TT1 threw 1 game, it wouldn't even be matchmaking, they didn't agree that TT1 would throw a game, he just decided to be a moron about it, I'm also assuming this wasn't a BO1 final, so people seem to have put aside the other games played, maybe this 1 base carrier build had worked previously It doesn't matter if you're a spectator too. The fact that this could happen to you in person means you are heavily biased in favor. Sorry, no go. And really, assume? He basically admitted it. That is matchmaking. Matchmaking is the process of deciding a match between two competitors before it happens, which this obviously did because there is no way he would go with that build if he hadn't made the agreement. And honestly, a pro defending this behavior by saying that a 1base carrier build "worked previously" honestly goes to show why your opinion isn't valid for this. Keep this practice in poker if you want, I could not give less of a damn. Do not bring it here. no they haven't decided on the games, they decided to split the money period. what happened then is TT1 decided to do a stupid strategy that may or may not have worked you're mixing things up And I was not, as I explained in my post, opposed to this if it doesn't take the competitive spirit out of the game. I want to see good games. TT1 threw the fucking game because he knew he'd get the same money anyway, and although fenix may or may not have been on it(that was not clarified, was it?), at that point it became matchmaking. They took the competition out because the only thing TT1 cared about was the money. At that point, it stops being fun for spectators, and as soon as this becomes common practice(not the splitting of money - but the throwing of games, agreed or not), SC2 is dead in the water. can you point out any other finals where you saw someone throw a match? cuz I can guarantee you there was a lot more than this tourney where people have split the prize money weirdly enough, nobody ever cared about it And that is my point. I said it should be case by case, and in this case, it should count as matchfixing, both players should be banned from competitive play, and the money should be withheld. If it has no outcome on the game, at least as far as we know, I don't mind it. Good games are what count. They can wipe their ass with the prize money if they want to, as long as they deliver us games worthy of the money. How can you disagree with that? And you honestly shouldn't be defending the strategy. Come on. jesus you can't even prove it was match fixing what about the game Huk played against select where he went 1 base mothership, was that match fixing?
Yeah, ignoring the fact that TT1 basically admitted to it, I can't prove it.
I'm done. You are way too biased from your poker experience to see how this is extremely harmful if it results in worse games.
|
On September 02 2011 09:32 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:30 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:27 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:24 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:20 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:16 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:12 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:07 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:00 ReignFayth wrote:
how anyone can mix up match fixing and deal making completely baffles me How a "pro" can defend the concept of throwing games completely baffles me. You are extremely biased as a player. It is up to the spectators to decide whether this is matchmaking or not, not you. And let's face it, considering TT1 threw the game, it meets the very definition of matchmaking in this case. I think it should be handled on a case by case basis. This is obviously a case of blatant match fixing. Deal with it. dude players are usually both spectators and players, you see different players competing all the time, other pros watch them and NONE of them give a shit if they split the prize and let's assume TT1 threw 1 game, it wouldn't even be matchmaking, they didn't agree that TT1 would throw a game, he just decided to be a moron about it, I'm also assuming this wasn't a BO1 final, so people seem to have put aside the other games played, maybe this 1 base carrier build had worked previously It doesn't matter if you're a spectator too. The fact that this could happen to you in person means you are heavily biased in favor. Sorry, no go. And really, assume? He basically admitted it. That is matchmaking. Matchmaking is the process of deciding a match between two competitors before it happens, which this obviously did because there is no way he would go with that build if he hadn't made the agreement. And honestly, a pro defending this behavior by saying that a 1base carrier build "worked previously" honestly goes to show why your opinion isn't valid for this. Keep this practice in poker if you want, I could not give less of a damn. Do not bring it here. no they haven't decided on the games, they decided to split the money period. what happened then is TT1 decided to do a stupid strategy that may or may not have worked you're mixing things up And I was not, as I explained in my post, opposed to this if it doesn't take the competitive spirit out of the game. I want to see good games. TT1 threw the fucking game because he knew he'd get the same money anyway, and although fenix may or may not have been on it(that was not clarified, was it?), at that point it became matchmaking. They took the competition out because the only thing TT1 cared about was the money. At that point, it stops being fun for spectators, and as soon as this becomes common practice(not the splitting of money - but the throwing of games, agreed or not), SC2 is dead in the water. can you point out any other finals where you saw someone throw a match? cuz I can guarantee you there was a lot more than this tourney where people have split the prize money weirdly enough, nobody ever cared about it And that is my point. I said it should be case by case, and in this case, it should count as matchfixing, both players should be banned from competitive play, and the money should be withheld. If it has no outcome on the game, at least as far as we know, I don't mind it. Good games are what count. They can wipe their ass with the prize money if they want to, as long as they deliver us games worthy of the money. How can you disagree with that? And you honestly shouldn't be defending the strategy. Come on. jesus you can't even prove it was match fixing what about the game Huk played against select where he went 1 base mothership, was that match fixing?
Short of:
Player1: "hey, let's split the prize money and I'll throw these games"
Player2: "ok"
appearing in game chat, the gameplay isn't going to be any proof.
Money transfers, witnesses, admissions would be the evidence that whatever interested parties would use as evidence to prove it, assuming it's against the rules in the first place.
|
Going back to the old tournament thread it seems like TT1 was going carriers to show a good game for the fans.
On December 12 2010 12:35 Beside_kr wrote:It's 1-1 in the first set of the grand finals it seems. One more game and Fenix takes it, if TT1 wins, he has to win a second set. TT1 just lost a game on blistering sands going some 2stargate carrier play but Fenix was playing standard and was a base up. TT1 complaining that the crowd is only cheering for Fenix to win  game 3 on LT Fenix wins. 1. FnaticMSI.Fenix 2. FnaticMSI.TT1 3. Maker 4. wzp
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=175861¤tpage=2#22
|
On September 02 2011 09:33 Kaitlin wrote:
To Fayth and Minigun and any other "pros" that seem to think this is fine:
Do your team sponsors care all ALL about tournament results of the players they are investing in ? Are such results not posted on your team websites, and cited as your "credentials" for such things as providing coaching or doing promotional videos for whatever products your sponsors have?
You guys don't see a problem with SC2 credentials being little more than titles in professional wrestling ?
Yeah, next tourney is the other player's turn to 'win'.
|
On September 02 2011 09:34 bloodmeat wrote:
I think it's wrong and I voted yes for both. However I somewhat empathize with players who do it just because I know a lot of them forfeit getting jobs or going to school because they have to constantly practice. They may need to make sure they get a steady income. At the same time though, if they're the type of player who finishes in the top 5 of tourneys then they're probably already getting a decent amount.
I stand by my opinion that it is wrong, and as a viewer it's upsetting because I'm sure the matches would be much more competitive.
Finishing top 5 of most major tourneys will grant you about 5% of the 1st place prize. So good luck with that.
Not to mention there are only like 15 tournaments a year with even a decent 1st place prize. And that's because I'm including the 12 Code S rounds.
|
On September 02 2011 09:32 hyptonic wrote:
it's the player's life. it's their money, their only source of income. their isn't any rules about it so they can do whatever the fuck they want. obviously as a spectator you'd be pissed. but to reemphasize, this is their life.
That's a valid point, and humor me as I make up a hypothetical scenario, but let's say all players started engaging in this activity to the point where it was very obvious to viewers. As much as I love watching competitive SC2, I would probably be inclined to stop watching and stop spending money for MLG and other various tourneys. Popularity would drop, sponsors would drop, prize pools would drop, and so on and so forth.
So while I empathize with their need to make a living, I hope they realize the long term effects of that sort of behavior.
|
On September 02 2011 09:33 Kaitlin wrote:
To Fayth and Minigun and any other "pros" that seem to think this is fine:
Do your team sponsors care all ALL about tournament results of the players they are investing in ? Are such results not posted on your team websites, and cited as your "credentials" for such things as providing coaching or doing promotional videos for whatever products your sponsors have?
You guys don't see a problem with SC2 credentials being little more than titles in professional wrestling ?
Who says they still aren't trying to win?
Just because two players agree to split the winnings, doesn't mean they play bad.
If I were to split with a player I was going up against, I would still try my hardest, to get that #1 spot for my team or w/e.
|
On September 02 2011 09:33 Kaitlin wrote:
To Fayth and Minigun and any other "pros" that seem to think this is fine:
Do your team sponsors care all ALL about tournament results of the players they are investing in ? Are such results not posted on your team websites, and cited as your "credentials" for such things as providing coaching or doing promotional videos for whatever products your sponsors have?
You guys don't see a problem with SC2 credentials being little more than titles in professional wrestling ?
They can still play their hardest in the finals as hard as they can even if they split...If the tournament is big enough such as MLG, i'd be surprised if they didn't.
|
I think it would be best if the tournaments would make this an option for players, and make some rules around it (such as the winner of the match must get at least 60% of the total winnings of both players and it can only be made for 1st and 2nd place, you can see something like that often in poker tournaments). I think if the players are splitting it 50/50 is very unfair for the viewers, I never want to see pros not doing the best they can (like in the Boxer vs Yellow showmatch.. I was really dissappointed).
|
lol @ the people in this thread who have a complete inability to separate match fixing from deal making in their minds. It's absolutely baffling to me that people can't understand this, but perhaps my long experience in the poker world has just made it seem like a standard and normal concept to me.
|
On September 02 2011 09:33 Kaitlin wrote:
To Fayth and Minigun and any other "pros" that seem to think this is fine:
Do your team sponsors care all ALL about tournament results of the players they are investing in ? Are such results not posted on your team websites, and cited as your "credentials" for such things as providing coaching or doing promotional videos for whatever products your sponsors have?
You guys don't see a problem with SC2 credentials being little more than titles in professional wrestling ?
well in this case and those posted in the thread, it is only reported to happen between teammates
On September 02 2011 09:36 Kaitlin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:32 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:30 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:27 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:24 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:20 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:16 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:12 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:07 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:00 ReignFayth wrote:
how anyone can mix up match fixing and deal making completely baffles me How a "pro" can defend the concept of throwing games completely baffles me. You are extremely biased as a player. It is up to the spectators to decide whether this is matchmaking or not, not you. And let's face it, considering TT1 threw the game, it meets the very definition of matchmaking in this case. I think it should be handled on a case by case basis. This is obviously a case of blatant match fixing. Deal with it. dude players are usually both spectators and players, you see different players competing all the time, other pros watch them and NONE of them give a shit if they split the prize and let's assume TT1 threw 1 game, it wouldn't even be matchmaking, they didn't agree that TT1 would throw a game, he just decided to be a moron about it, I'm also assuming this wasn't a BO1 final, so people seem to have put aside the other games played, maybe this 1 base carrier build had worked previously It doesn't matter if you're a spectator too. The fact that this could happen to you in person means you are heavily biased in favor. Sorry, no go. And really, assume? He basically admitted it. That is matchmaking. Matchmaking is the process of deciding a match between two competitors before it happens, which this obviously did because there is no way he would go with that build if he hadn't made the agreement. And honestly, a pro defending this behavior by saying that a 1base carrier build "worked previously" honestly goes to show why your opinion isn't valid for this. Keep this practice in poker if you want, I could not give less of a damn. Do not bring it here. no they haven't decided on the games, they decided to split the money period. what happened then is TT1 decided to do a stupid strategy that may or may not have worked you're mixing things up And I was not, as I explained in my post, opposed to this if it doesn't take the competitive spirit out of the game. I want to see good games. TT1 threw the fucking game because he knew he'd get the same money anyway, and although fenix may or may not have been on it(that was not clarified, was it?), at that point it became matchmaking. They took the competition out because the only thing TT1 cared about was the money. At that point, it stops being fun for spectators, and as soon as this becomes common practice(not the splitting of money - but the throwing of games, agreed or not), SC2 is dead in the water. can you point out any other finals where you saw someone throw a match? cuz I can guarantee you there was a lot more than this tourney where people have split the prize money weirdly enough, nobody ever cared about it And that is my point. I said it should be case by case, and in this case, it should count as matchfixing, both players should be banned from competitive play, and the money should be withheld. If it has no outcome on the game, at least as far as we know, I don't mind it. Good games are what count. They can wipe their ass with the prize money if they want to, as long as they deliver us games worthy of the money. How can you disagree with that? And you honestly shouldn't be defending the strategy. Come on. jesus you can't even prove it was match fixing what about the game Huk played against select where he went 1 base mothership, was that match fixing? Short of: Player1: "hey, let's split the prize money and I'll throw these games" Player2: "ok" appearing in game chat, the gameplay isn't going to be any proof. Money transfers, witnesses, admissions would be the evidence that whatever interested parties would use as evidence to prove it, assuming it's against the rules in the first place.
it isnt
|
On September 02 2011 09:36 HoldenR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:32 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:30 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:27 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:24 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:20 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:16 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:12 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:07 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:00 ReignFayth wrote:
how anyone can mix up match fixing and deal making completely baffles me How a "pro" can defend the concept of throwing games completely baffles me. You are extremely biased as a player. It is up to the spectators to decide whether this is matchmaking or not, not you. And let's face it, considering TT1 threw the game, it meets the very definition of matchmaking in this case. I think it should be handled on a case by case basis. This is obviously a case of blatant match fixing. Deal with it. dude players are usually both spectators and players, you see different players competing all the time, other pros watch them and NONE of them give a shit if they split the prize and let's assume TT1 threw 1 game, it wouldn't even be matchmaking, they didn't agree that TT1 would throw a game, he just decided to be a moron about it, I'm also assuming this wasn't a BO1 final, so people seem to have put aside the other games played, maybe this 1 base carrier build had worked previously It doesn't matter if you're a spectator too. The fact that this could happen to you in person means you are heavily biased in favor. Sorry, no go. And really, assume? He basically admitted it. That is matchmaking. Matchmaking is the process of deciding a match between two competitors before it happens, which this obviously did because there is no way he would go with that build if he hadn't made the agreement. And honestly, a pro defending this behavior by saying that a 1base carrier build "worked previously" honestly goes to show why your opinion isn't valid for this. Keep this practice in poker if you want, I could not give less of a damn. Do not bring it here. no they haven't decided on the games, they decided to split the money period. what happened then is TT1 decided to do a stupid strategy that may or may not have worked you're mixing things up And I was not, as I explained in my post, opposed to this if it doesn't take the competitive spirit out of the game. I want to see good games. TT1 threw the fucking game because he knew he'd get the same money anyway, and although fenix may or may not have been on it(that was not clarified, was it?), at that point it became matchmaking. They took the competition out because the only thing TT1 cared about was the money. At that point, it stops being fun for spectators, and as soon as this becomes common practice(not the splitting of money - but the throwing of games, agreed or not), SC2 is dead in the water. can you point out any other finals where you saw someone throw a match? cuz I can guarantee you there was a lot more than this tourney where people have split the prize money weirdly enough, nobody ever cared about it And that is my point. I said it should be case by case, and in this case, it should count as matchfixing, both players should be banned from competitive play, and the money should be withheld. If it has no outcome on the game, at least as far as we know, I don't mind it. Good games are what count. They can wipe their ass with the prize money if they want to, as long as they deliver us games worthy of the money. How can you disagree with that? And you honestly shouldn't be defending the strategy. Come on. jesus you can't even prove it was match fixing what about the game Huk played against select where he went 1 base mothership, was that match fixing? Yeah, ignoring the fact that TT1 basically admitted to it, I can't prove it. I'm done. You are way too biased from your poker experience to see how this is extremely harmful if it results in worse games.
there's no certainty that it will result in worse games, though. TT1 just played the match out like an idiot. that's no guarantee that all tournaments with chopped 1st/2nd are going to result in terrible games, as i assume many players would take winning a tournament/getting a trophy very seriously.
|
On September 02 2011 09:37 Emporio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:34 bloodmeat wrote:
I think it's wrong and I voted yes for both. However I somewhat empathize with players who do it just because I know a lot of them forfeit getting jobs or going to school because they have to constantly practice. They may need to make sure they get a steady income. At the same time though, if they're the type of player who finishes in the top 5 of tourneys then they're probably already getting a decent amount.
I stand by my opinion that it is wrong, and as a viewer it's upsetting because I'm sure the matches would be much more competitive. Finishing top 5 of most major tourneys will grant you about 5% of the 1st place prize. So good luck with that. Not to mention there are only like 15 tournaments a year with even a decent 1st place prize. And that's because I'm including the 12 Code S rounds.
Well I meant that they're probably not only getting money from tourneys, but if they're consistently winning then they're probably very popular which means sponsors, big stream crowds, or whatever else. You're right though, I don't think any player plans on making a living purely through tourney winnings, except for MC I guess XD
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
