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Yes. I made an account just for this post.
I think there is a large segment of the TL community that also plays poker, and to them this situation is pretty natural. There also seems to be a large segment hearing about this type of thing for the first time, and it is upsetting to them.
I don't know anything about the world of being a professional starcraft player, but I do have some experience in poker and in pool, and in both games I have chopped the pot in a 1st/2nd situation. I have chopped the pot in poker tourneys where I didn't even know the other person and put it on faith that they would honor the deal (The tourney always pays out the 1st/2nd and the split is only based in your word and honor.)
There are people will never chop, and people that will always chop. In pot limit Omaha you will see people agree to deal twice to take away some of the variance of 2 very strong hands. Some people will never accept this type of thing as standard and professional play, but for the people that grind out game after game and play the small percentages, having large amounts come down to a coinflip is the type of odds they would rather avoid.
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you guys really think losira and nestea didn't make any kind of deal..?
really? -.-
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On September 02 2011 09:18 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:12 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:07 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:00 ReignFayth wrote:
how anyone can mix up match fixing and deal making completely baffles me How a "pro" can defend the concept of throwing games completely baffles me. You are extremely biased as a player. It is up to the spectators to decide whether this is matchmaking or not, not you. And let's face it, considering TT1 threw the game, it meets the very definition of matchmaking in this case. I think it should be handled on a case by case basis. This is obviously a case of blatant match fixing. Deal with it. dude players are usually both spectators and players, you see different players competing all the time, other pros watch them and NONE of them give a shit if they split the prize and let's assume TT1 threw 1 game, it wouldn't even be matchmaking, they didn't agree that TT1 would throw a game, he just decided to be a moron about it, I'm also assuming this wasn't a BO1 final, so people seem to have put aside the other games played, maybe this 1 base carrier build had worked previously Don't think anyone is gonna take you seriously anymore after saying something like that.
Teamkills can be weird, man. Don't tell me you didn't think that Ganzi's proxy supply depot against Taeja wasn't dumb and/or crazy at first. I wouldn't have thought it would work, but it did.
Anyways, it's impossible to actually prove beyond a doubt that TT1 threw the game because of the deal.
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On September 02 2011 09:22 Emporio wrote:
1st place: $1,000,000
2nd place: 0
You have a 50% chance of winning. Do you split?
no man I would never split
it wouldn't be fair to the audience!
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On September 02 2011 09:20 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:16 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:12 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:07 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:00 ReignFayth wrote:
how anyone can mix up match fixing and deal making completely baffles me How a "pro" can defend the concept of throwing games completely baffles me. You are extremely biased as a player. It is up to the spectators to decide whether this is matchmaking or not, not you. And let's face it, considering TT1 threw the game, it meets the very definition of matchmaking in this case. I think it should be handled on a case by case basis. This is obviously a case of blatant match fixing. Deal with it. dude players are usually both spectators and players, you see different players competing all the time, other pros watch them and NONE of them give a shit if they split the prize and let's assume TT1 threw 1 game, it wouldn't even be matchmaking, they didn't agree that TT1 would throw a game, he just decided to be a moron about it, I'm also assuming this wasn't a BO1 final, so people seem to have put aside the other games played, maybe this 1 base carrier build had worked previously It doesn't matter if you're a spectator too. The fact that this could happen to you in person means you are heavily biased in favor. Sorry, no go. And really, assume? He basically admitted it. That is matchmaking. Matchmaking is the process of deciding a match between two competitors before it happens, which this obviously did because there is no way he would go with that build if he hadn't made the agreement. And honestly, a pro defending this behavior by saying that a 1base carrier build "worked previously" honestly goes to show why your opinion isn't valid for this. Keep this practice in poker if you want, I could not give less of a damn. Do not bring it here. no they haven't decided on the games, they decided to split the money period. what happened then is TT1 decided to do a stupid strategy that may or may not have worked you're mixing things up
And I was not, as I explained in my post, opposed to this if it doesn't take the competitive spirit out of the game. I want to see good games. TT1 threw the fucking game because he knew he'd get the same money anyway, and although fenix may or may not have been on it(that was not clarified, was it?), at that point it became matchmaking. They took the competition out because the only thing TT1 cared about was the money. At that point, it stops being fun for spectators, and as soon as this becomes common practice(not the splitting of money - but the throwing of games, agreed or not), SC2 is dead in the water.
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ontopic : voted accordingly.
P.S. They both should be banned for 1-2 years from any sc2 events.
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I think the root of the problem is really what needs to be addressed. Don't get me wrong in the really prestigious tournaments people will try their hardest for first regardless of the money because of the pride it will bring but...........
If the prize money is distributed so lopsidedly this problem wouldn't arise. I think that in a tournament like the GSL the first place prize shouldn't be more than $5000 USD (~3 503 euros). In a tournament like Dreamhack where first gets around $16000 USD I don't think it vary by more than $1000. $1000 is a lot of money and people will still play for pride.
You guys also have to remember that this is their livelihood.
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On September 02 2011 09:21 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:16 Full.tilt wrote:
I think it's pretty sad, what's the point of having a final game if this goes on? Maybe tournaments should have equal prize money for the players who reach the final so the playing field becomes level again.
Isn't that what people want? Winners to be decided based on skill at the game, isn't that why so many people bang on about balance? This prize money splitting is just another complication that effects the way players play. Of course some people will try their best, but if you think 2 players will try the best every time when the prize money has already been decided then I think that's pretty naive.
I hope it's not as common as TT1 suggests. it feels like someone just told you santa claus doesn't exist lol
If you like, makes me not want to bother watching players who have been known to do this deal making before anyway.
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The solution to this is to not overly inflate the prize pool for first place versus second place. I know "splitting" first prize was extremely common in Zotac cups for warcraft 3, but I've never actually heard of people doing it in big name tournaments. Zotac was all or nothing so you'd essentially gamble to take 100 or guarantee yourself 50 Euros. I don't recall any of the games being thrown away merely because the prize money was being distributed either, but the zotac cup went on for a long time and I didn't watch it every weekend. I see no issue with people doing this. If you don't want your competitors doing such things don't overly inflate first place prizes.
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On September 02 2011 09:21 Rococo wrote:
It's telling that despite all of this community's pretensions about e-sports, any time a comparison is to be made it's to poker.
It's because with "real" sports, players have salaries that easily maintain their lifestyle and prize for championship is all about the glory. The money is at best given out of principle. That is not the case in SC2 meaning the closest financial equivalent is poker, where the only money (for most players) is in winnings
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I hardly post, but this argument is entirely derailed. Instead of asking whether it is right or wrong, we should be pursuing why players feel it is a necessary thing to do.
Let's get something immediately out of the way, in the global, historical sense of sport and competition in general - yes, per-arranging to split prize money so that you are not negatively affected by losing is wrong. The point of handing out a prize is to reward the person who has played best. They are lauded, spoken of, and rewarded with financial compensation for proving in whatever sport they have played that they are the better player on a given day.
It's obvious fans want to see competition, but at some point they have to look at the situation realistically. SC2 players do not make enough money. The lifestyle is barely sustainable. Splitting the prize is another way of spreading the wealth - i.e., internally supporting the community by redistributing wealth gained from external sources. If players were financially supported properly, they would not need to split winnings because the incentive would be diminished.
Yes, it is frowned upon. Yes, this practice should be ended. Instead of whining about it however, try to uncover meaningful ways to actually support the players that have given so much of their time to compete. What is the point, if any slip-up can leave them significantly poorer.
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long as they players aren't deciding who wins I think its fine. I don't even mind players agreeing to show certain style games on a map like lets do long macro game on x map to see who is better late game.
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On September 02 2011 09:24 HoldenR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:20 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:16 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:12 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:07 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:00 ReignFayth wrote:
how anyone can mix up match fixing and deal making completely baffles me How a "pro" can defend the concept of throwing games completely baffles me. You are extremely biased as a player. It is up to the spectators to decide whether this is matchmaking or not, not you. And let's face it, considering TT1 threw the game, it meets the very definition of matchmaking in this case. I think it should be handled on a case by case basis. This is obviously a case of blatant match fixing. Deal with it. dude players are usually both spectators and players, you see different players competing all the time, other pros watch them and NONE of them give a shit if they split the prize and let's assume TT1 threw 1 game, it wouldn't even be matchmaking, they didn't agree that TT1 would throw a game, he just decided to be a moron about it, I'm also assuming this wasn't a BO1 final, so people seem to have put aside the other games played, maybe this 1 base carrier build had worked previously It doesn't matter if you're a spectator too. The fact that this could happen to you in person means you are heavily biased in favor. Sorry, no go. And really, assume? He basically admitted it. That is matchmaking. Matchmaking is the process of deciding a match between two competitors before it happens, which this obviously did because there is no way he would go with that build if he hadn't made the agreement. And honestly, a pro defending this behavior by saying that a 1base carrier build "worked previously" honestly goes to show why your opinion isn't valid for this. Keep this practice in poker if you want, I could not give less of a damn. Do not bring it here. no they haven't decided on the games, they decided to split the money period. what happened then is TT1 decided to do a stupid strategy that may or may not have worked you're mixing things up And I was not, as I explained in my post, opposed to this if it doesn't take the competitive spirit out of the game. I want to see good games. TT1 threw the fucking game because he knew he'd get the same money anyway, and although fenix may or may not have been on it(that was not clarified, was it?), at that point it became matchmaking. They took the competition out because the only thing TT1 cared about was the money. At that point, it stops being fun for spectators, and as soon as this becomes common practice(not the splitting of money - but the throwing of games, agreed or not), SC2 is dead in the water.
can you point out any other finals where you saw someone throw a match?
cuz I can guarantee you there was a lot more than this tourney where people have split the prize money
weirdly enough, nobody ever cared about it
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On September 02 2011 09:25 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:23 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 09:18 zeru wrote:On September 02 2011 09:12 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:07 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:00 ReignFayth wrote:
how anyone can mix up match fixing and deal making completely baffles me How a "pro" can defend the concept of throwing games completely baffles me. You are extremely biased as a player. It is up to the spectators to decide whether this is matchmaking or not, not you. And let's face it, considering TT1 threw the game, it meets the very definition of matchmaking in this case. I think it should be handled on a case by case basis. This is obviously a case of blatant match fixing. Deal with it. dude players are usually both spectators and players, you see different players competing all the time, other pros watch them and NONE of them give a shit if they split the prize and let's assume TT1 threw 1 game, it wouldn't even be matchmaking, they didn't agree that TT1 would throw a game, he just decided to be a moron about it, I'm also assuming this wasn't a BO1 final, so people seem to have put aside the other games played, maybe this 1 base carrier build had worked previously Don't think anyone is gonna take you seriously anymore after saying something like that. Teamkills can be weird, man. Don't tell me you didn't think that Ganzi's proxy supply depot against Taeja wasn't dumb and/or crazy at first. I wouldn't have thought it would work, but it did. Anyways, it's impossible to actually prove beyond a doubt that TT1 threw the game because of the deal. The proxy barracks depot was a pretty damn smart 1 time/rare build. Are you really gonna claim 1 base carrier is the same thing as that.
GanZi has also used the same build against people other than Taeja.
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to be honest, 2 teammates playing against each other doesn't show who the better player is anyway. So i don't think it matters if 2 players wanna split the prize winnings @ a tournament if they already play so many games that it becomes Mindgames instead of Skill.
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On September 02 2011 09:22 Emporio wrote:
1st place: $1,000,000
2nd place: 0
You have a 50% chance of winning. Do you split?
Not if the penalty for being caught is forfeiture and any additional costs / penalties involved. If the tournament rules don't prohibit it, then it's a simply a matter of whether you want to take the "gambling" risk.
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On September 02 2011 09:27 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:24 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:20 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:16 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:12 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:07 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:00 ReignFayth wrote:
how anyone can mix up match fixing and deal making completely baffles me How a "pro" can defend the concept of throwing games completely baffles me. You are extremely biased as a player. It is up to the spectators to decide whether this is matchmaking or not, not you. And let's face it, considering TT1 threw the game, it meets the very definition of matchmaking in this case. I think it should be handled on a case by case basis. This is obviously a case of blatant match fixing. Deal with it. dude players are usually both spectators and players, you see different players competing all the time, other pros watch them and NONE of them give a shit if they split the prize and let's assume TT1 threw 1 game, it wouldn't even be matchmaking, they didn't agree that TT1 would throw a game, he just decided to be a moron about it, I'm also assuming this wasn't a BO1 final, so people seem to have put aside the other games played, maybe this 1 base carrier build had worked previously It doesn't matter if you're a spectator too. The fact that this could happen to you in person means you are heavily biased in favor. Sorry, no go. And really, assume? He basically admitted it. That is matchmaking. Matchmaking is the process of deciding a match between two competitors before it happens, which this obviously did because there is no way he would go with that build if he hadn't made the agreement. And honestly, a pro defending this behavior by saying that a 1base carrier build "worked previously" honestly goes to show why your opinion isn't valid for this. Keep this practice in poker if you want, I could not give less of a damn. Do not bring it here. no they haven't decided on the games, they decided to split the money period. what happened then is TT1 decided to do a stupid strategy that may or may not have worked you're mixing things up And I was not, as I explained in my post, opposed to this if it doesn't take the competitive spirit out of the game. I want to see good games. TT1 threw the fucking game because he knew he'd get the same money anyway, and although fenix may or may not have been on it(that was not clarified, was it?), at that point it became matchmaking. They took the competition out because the only thing TT1 cared about was the money. At that point, it stops being fun for spectators, and as soon as this becomes common practice(not the splitting of money - but the throwing of games, agreed or not), SC2 is dead in the water. can you point out any other finals where you saw someone throw a match? cuz I can guarantee you there was a lot more than this tourney where people have split the prize money weirdly enough, nobody ever cared about it
And that is my point. I said it should be case by case, and in this case, it should count as matchfixing, both players should be banned from competitive play, and the money should be withheld. If it has no outcome on the game, at least as far as we know, I don't mind it.
Good games are what count. They can wipe their ass with the prize money if they want to, as long as they deliver us games worthy of the money. How can you disagree with that?
And you honestly shouldn't be defending the strategy. Come on.
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I'm not against splitting, but I'm against splitting 50/50. The winner should still win more than the loser, even if they agree to somewhat close the gap.
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On September 02 2011 09:25 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 09:23 babylon wrote:On September 02 2011 09:18 zeru wrote:On September 02 2011 09:12 ReignFayth wrote:On September 02 2011 09:07 HoldenR wrote:On September 02 2011 09:00 ReignFayth wrote:
how anyone can mix up match fixing and deal making completely baffles me How a "pro" can defend the concept of throwing games completely baffles me. You are extremely biased as a player. It is up to the spectators to decide whether this is matchmaking or not, not you. And let's face it, considering TT1 threw the game, it meets the very definition of matchmaking in this case. I think it should be handled on a case by case basis. This is obviously a case of blatant match fixing. Deal with it. dude players are usually both spectators and players, you see different players competing all the time, other pros watch them and NONE of them give a shit if they split the prize and let's assume TT1 threw 1 game, it wouldn't even be matchmaking, they didn't agree that TT1 would throw a game, he just decided to be a moron about it, I'm also assuming this wasn't a BO1 final, so people seem to have put aside the other games played, maybe this 1 base carrier build had worked previously Don't think anyone is gonna take you seriously anymore after saying something like that. Teamkills can be weird, man. Don't tell me you didn't think that Ganzi's proxy supply depot against Taeja wasn't dumb and/or crazy at first. I wouldn't have thought it would work, but it did. Anyways, it's impossible to actually prove beyond a doubt that TT1 threw the game because of the deal. The proxy barracks depot was a pretty damn smart 1 time/rare build. Are you really gonna claim 1 base carrier is the same thing as that.
Bad example? Okay, but my point is that teamkills can be weird, especially with the mindgames involved, and that it's impossible to determine why he decided to go 1-base carriers, which is normally the dumbest thing to do ever.
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EPT
