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New Seeker Missile Information:
By increasing the speed of the seeker missile to 2.95, the missile will catch any unit that moves at a speed of 2.55 or below / 2.65 or below with durable materials. This is with perfect micro. Previously, the missile would hit 2.1 / 2.2 respectively.
Edit: Turret: 50 energy, PDD: 100 Energy, Seeker Missile: 125 Energy - 100 damage
So...what units are in danger if Seeker Missile starts tracking?
Doomed:
.47: Overlord
.94: Queen
1.41: Mothership, Broodlord
1.88: Fast Overlord, Slow Overseer, Carrier, High Templar, Slow Observer, Thor, Battlecruiser
2.25: Colossus, Immortal, Voidray, Sentry, Slow Zealot, Marine, Marauder, Ghost, Tank, Raven, Viking-Ground, Infestor, Slow Roach, Hydra
2.5: Slow Warp Prism, Medivac, Slow Baneling, Queen-Creep
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Need Head Start:
2.75: Viking-Air, Banshee, Fast Overseer, Fast Zealot
2.81: Workers, Fast Observer, Archon, Dark Templar
2.92: Infestor-Creep, Slow Roach-Creep
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Can Outrun (Note: Seeker Missile Speed is 2.95):
2.95: Ultralisk, Corruptor, Slow Lings, Fast Banelings, Stalker, Slow Reaper
3.00: Fast Roach
3.25: Slow Baneling-Creep
3.375: Hydra-Creep, Fast Warp Prism, Stimmed Marines & Marauders
3.75: Mutalisk
3.83: Fast Baneling-Creep, Ultralisk-Creep, Fast Reaper
3.90: Fast Roach-Creep
4.25: Phoenix, Hellion
4.70: Speedling
6.11: Speedling-Creep
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What does this mean?
TvP Air Control
With the SM able to hit Vrays and Carriers, a Terran player needs relatively fewer vikings to hold the skies, allowing them to create more Ravens for more SM or PDD based on the situation.
TvT Air Control
A player can now fall behind in Viking count and still have a chance to reclaim air dominance.
TvZ Infestor Repellant
The raven can now be a strong infestor sniper. If off creep the infestor will surely die and if on creep the infestor must be micro'ed away.
What other tactics / strategies do you see?
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125 Energy is still too much. Only in the latest of late Games will it be used.
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Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile.
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Seeker Missile will also take out hardened shields on immortals (while doing splash to their neighbors).
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you could always use squads of ravens to lay down covering PDD's while you move in with the seekers, is only not viable in situations where the opponent has a wall of AA. Science vessels used to drive above zergs armies casting irradiate and that was when scourge were in the sky...where there's a way there's a will, someone will figure it out and we will all copy it.
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On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile.
I've got three words for you.
pee dee dee
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On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile.
That very same unit has a way to deal with that, its called PDD. You could even use siege tanks to cover them if you want to save energy.
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On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee
I've got three words for you.
Too much energy.
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On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee
That would require 225 energy...
A raven has 200.
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how much dmg seeker missile do? 125?
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On August 26 2011 02:31 dde wrote:
how much dmg seeker missile do? 125?
100
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On August 26 2011 02:31 Doodlerapid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee I've got three words for you. Too much energy.
Make more than 1 raven?
5 ravens with PDD can survive ANYTHING long enough for marines to come save them
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On August 26 2011 02:31 Doodlerapid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee I've got three words for you. Too much energy.
Let me counter that with two words:
Two Ravens.
On August 26 2011 02:31 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee That would require 225 energy... A raven has 200. Yes, you'd obviously require a second Raven to cover the first.
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On August 26 2011 02:31 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee That would require 225 energy... A raven has 200.
Build more than one raven? One lays down PDD as the other one comes in for the seeker missle.
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I like this buff, I think it's a cool spell and this is a change that is making the game more skill based because people will have to be good at using SM and more so people will have to be good at getting their units away and splitting them, but balance-wise does terran really need more things that are effect? The BC got back to being viable in at least TvT now every spell the raven has is useful in some situations, nothing terran has is bad really and I just hope they start making that true for every race *cough* carrier *cough*
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Imagine that, 225 energy for 100 dmg at 6 range in a tiny area that some units can simply dodge. Also, research. Gee, I better start using that.
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On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee
Riiight, use a 75 energy spell so you can cast a 125 energy spell.
If they upped the range to 8 it might actually be worthwhile, like strike cannons used to be.
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On August 26 2011 02:33 Xinder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:31 tnud wrote:On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee That would require 225 energy... A raven has 200. Build more than one raven? One lays down PDD as the other one comes in for the seeker missle.
200 minerals 400 gas for a pdd and a seeker missile that might not even hit?
no thanks
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Holy smokes....just screwed around in unit tester and 1 seeker missile wipes out almost all larvae! Not cocoons though.
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Russian Federation949 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:32 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:31 Doodlerapid wrote:On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee I've got three words for you. Too much energy. Make more than 1 raven? 5 ravens with PDD can survive ANYTHING long enough for marines to come save them
There r bunch of thing that PDD does save against, hydras for example
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On August 26 2011 02:33 Xinder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:31 tnud wrote:On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee That would require 225 energy... A raven has 200. Build more than one raven? One lays down PDD as the other one comes in for the seeker missle.
All this for 1 seeker missile?
seriously? do you even know how seeker missile works?
It's 100 damage in 0.6 raidus, 50 damage in 1.2 radius and 25 damage in 2 radius.
200-400 for ravens + 150-150 for hsm upgrade just to throw that stupid missile which can be avoided?
HSM isn't strong enough to be used with 1 raven let alone 2. When have you seen HSM winning some game? cmon people, we can talk about game and balance but think about things before you write something.
And it's not that no one has tried using HSM in these last year and a half. They were used ALOT in beta before range nerf 9->6 and splash damage change.
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TvZ infestor repellant? u wanna spend 125 energy to kill off a single infestor? really not viable, maybe at lower levels where they have them all clumped up but its to easy to spread.
i think TvZ we could just use them as a means to control the zerg army/location. and maybe aim for large groups of banelings/muta
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On August 26 2011 02:35 tnud wrote:
Imagine that, 225 energy for 100 dmg at 6 range in a tiny area that some units can simply dodge. Also, research. Gee, I better start using that.
+1 I still dont think it will ever get used. Blizz should try replacing with some other such as irridiate.
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toss will start more templar focused builds and just fb raven / pdd, the speedchange will not make the raven a unit to be feared i asume, some cutsie stuff is gonna happen but it will not be a standard "lets have 5-6 ravens hell yea" shit
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On August 26 2011 02:35 tnud wrote:
Imagine that, 225 energy for 100 dmg at 6 range in a tiny area that some units can simply dodge. Also, research. Gee, I better start using that.
The Raven is clearly a support unit - every spell in its arsenal is best used for support as you engage in a bigger battle, for zoning as both armies jostle for the best possible position to engage.
Think of it as a defensive nuke -> it's forcing army movement, allowing you to get into a better position yourself + distracting your opponent and putting an additional burden of micro and attention on him.
If getting a H-S missile off is all you're trying to do while your army waits around doing nothing - yeah, the effort and expense will probably not be worth it.
edit: it's obviously still very situational and won't make the Raven the new core unit of the Terran army, if that's what you guys were expecting. >_>
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Russian Federation949 Posts
I think it will be used, I used it in masters league to great effect before they made PDD not stop broodlord attack and ravens become less effective vs zerg, but now they might come back again
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if you think that this makes HSM viable then youre a fckin idiot
User was temp banned for this post.
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Why do people completely wave away some ideas with out even trying them at all? This is the most flexible race we're talking about here...
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Russian Federation949 Posts
Also- I can already see it. I try to go seeker an infestor, it neurals my raven and throws the missle at the army thats right under it. game over
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On August 26 2011 02:41 Gemini_19 wrote:
Why do people completely wave away some ideas with out even trying them at all? This is the most flexible race we're talking about here...
we tried this stuff in beta when seeker missile was way better :>
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On August 26 2011 02:43 Tppz! wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:41 Gemini_19 wrote:
Why do people completely wave away some ideas with out even trying them at all? This is the most flexible race we're talking about here... we tried this stuff in beta when seeker missile was way better :>
You mean when the game was completely different?
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I don't know that this is the buff it needs. You can still do so much more with reactored starports than with tech labs. Terran does get a gas glut later on in the game that they aren't really dealing with right now. This is Blizzards answer to that gas surplus in late late game but it's still not clear if it will be enough to be used.
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On August 26 2011 02:43 Pirat6662001 wrote:
Also- I can already see it. I try to go seeker an infestor, it neurals my raven and throws the missle at the army thats right under it. game over
Pimpest play material right there.
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Russian Federation949 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:44 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:43 Pirat6662001 wrote:
Also- I can already see it. I try to go seeker an infestor, it neurals my raven and throws the missle at the army thats right under it. game over Pimpest play material right there.
with new changes also nerual my ghost emp the rest of them, then i proced to cry in the corner
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It's a nice start to making the Raven a more viable unit to use in game but it's still not enough. The biggest problem I have with using Ravens is their short sighted range. Casting an ability will risk getting the Raven killed, or severely injured at the very least if it is focused fired. The risk lies in how much you lose if you get the Raven sniped after a one time use.
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On August 26 2011 02:32 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:31 Doodlerapid wrote:On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee I've got three words for you. Too much energy. Make more than 1 raven? 5 ravens with PDD can survive ANYTHING long enough for marines to come save them
PDD doesnt not stop Marine, Void ray, Sentry, infested marine and ghost attacks.
Oh Feedback, Emp, Fungal and NP rape a range 6 ranven too.
thats a hell of alot of things that can kill them under cover of PDD.
(Pro tip Sentry can 1 shot the PDD itself so all other range will work too)
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Russian Federation949 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:46 Karnac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:32 SafeAsCheese wrote:On August 26 2011 02:31 Doodlerapid wrote:On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee I've got three words for you. Too much energy. Make more than 1 raven? 5 ravens with PDD can survive ANYTHING long enough for marines to come save them PDD doesnt not stop Marine, Void ray, Sentry, infested marine and ghost attacks. Oh Feedback, Emp, Fungal and NP rape a range 6 ranven too. thats a hell of alot of things that can kill them under cover of PDD. (Pro tip Sentry can 1 shot the PDD itself so all other range will work too)
forgot storm and i think hydra
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I still feel that the seeker missile is such a gimmick, and unless you've got a ton of gas it's just not worth it. Theorycrafting is good and all, but in reality actually spending so much gas on a raven + upgrade and then having to control it, it's just not worth it.
Late game TvT it can be good, but at any other point in the game it's just too much of a risk compared to reward.
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This seems to be like a good change. It provides yet another solution to infestor brood in ZvT. Now terran has ghosts which can emp/snipe every infestor, and they also have ravens which will kill every infestor if zerg clumps to fungal vikings (adding another micro element).
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as far as infestors go if you research NP you would have to be pretty dumb/somehow miraculously be researching infestor upgrades but not have as many infestors as they have ravens to not mind control a 6 range unit from 9 range. just sayin. if i have the opportunity to counter someone massing ravens i would actually go infestors and SM/turret their army while keeping them there with fungal growth. i figured it out when there was a TvX mass raven build going around. my timings on it aren't the cleanest but full raven upgrades take about as long to build as fielding carriers
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On August 26 2011 02:41 Aletheia27 wrote:
The return of SKterran?
lol i want to see that
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They need to make seeker missle a viable option vs mass muta, otherwise it has no place outside TvT really.
Increase range, and increase speed again.
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The missile itself still sucks though. Spider mine, it ain't. It will collectively do less damage than a fungal, or a storm. Way too much effort to get something that will probably kill 2 infestors in a hit if lucky. The splash sucks.
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Nice thread, though I don't think we need like a thread for every balance change, the way you wrote it up was defo worth reading.
This WILL no doubt have huge effects on some of the supreme late game TvT plays with mass air which has been more commonly used lately. Though I think the BFH nerf might actually change the air play too, considering it's generally easier to transition into air from mech than from bio.
This is all in theory though, who the hell knows ^^
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On August 26 2011 02:44 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:43 Pirat6662001 wrote:
Also- I can already see it. I try to go seeker an infestor, it neurals my raven and throws the missle at the army thats right under it. game over Pimpest play material right there.
Speaking of pimpest plays, I saw Destiny neural two HTs about a week ago or so. He then proceeded to drop a storm on top of some fungaled units, then feedback about 4 other full energy HTs in the area. His opponent just typed in chat "0_0". I about peed my pants myself.
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On August 26 2011 02:33 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:31 Doodlerapid wrote:On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee I've got three words for you. Too much energy. Let me counter that with two words: Two Ravens. Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:31 tnud wrote:On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee That would require 225 energy... A raven has 200. Yes, you'd obviously require a second Raven to cover the first.
And then it becomes a 400 gas investment not including research, etc.
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As long as the actual missile costs 125 energy, it will remain worthless.
Since it is very easy to avoid, its rare that HSM is even as effective as a storm/fungal/EMP, which all cost 75 energy.
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I just thought about Ravens for a second in TvT and if TvT goes back to Marine/Tank and Mech will be scaled back i doubt we'll even see it in TvT all that much. The Raven dies way too fast to Marines.
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On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile.
Yeah that is one of the biggest limitations I've experienced using the seeker missile. Often your target is not at the front-line of the battle.
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On August 26 2011 02:26 GeNeSiDe wrote:
you could always use squads of ravens to lay down covering PDD's while you move in with the seekers, is only not viable in situations where the opponent has a wall of AA. Science vessels used to drive above zergs armies casting irradiate and that was when scourge were in the sky...where there's a way there's a will, someone will figure it out and we will all copy it.
SV also had 50% more health and wasn't as slow as your no-speed roaches off creep. 
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On August 26 2011 02:47 Pirat6662001 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:46 Karnac wrote:On August 26 2011 02:32 SafeAsCheese wrote:On August 26 2011 02:31 Doodlerapid wrote:On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee I've got three words for you. Too much energy. Make more than 1 raven? 5 ravens with PDD can survive ANYTHING long enough for marines to come save them PDD doesnt not stop Marine, Void ray, Sentry, infested marine and ghost attacks. Oh Feedback, Emp, Fungal and NP rape a range 6 ranven too. thats a hell of alot of things that can kill them under cover of PDD. (Pro tip Sentry can 1 shot the PDD itself so all other range will work too) forgot storm and i think hydra
Hydras are stopped, but they burn pdd energy really fast.
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lol the people saying getting multiple ravens have yet to play terran and don't realize how much of a burden it is to get a raven.
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I kind of agree that the energy cost is a little high. If it were reduced to 100, a full energy raven can pop two into a raging battle, which could actually be quite effective.
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Wow, that is pretty sick. This spell went from a positional spell that forces enemies to runaway to a spell that actually deals damage.
Pretty significant, can't wait to see late game terran the coolest of the three.
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On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee
Wait, so a single Raven needs to be maxed on energy in order to survive shooting an HSM? That's ridiculous. Just make it 7 range.
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If it had 9 range yeah sure, why not.
I used SM in 2 of my ~400 terran games.
1) Suicided 2 ravens to get rid of 10 mutas.
2) Bombed a terran that was going heavy marauder.
125 energy and probably losing the raven for 100 damage that is not guaranteed? No thank you, let me spend 100/200 + upgrades on something useful.
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On August 26 2011 03:04 hahaimhenry wrote:
lol the people saying getting multiple ravens have yet to play terran and don't realize how much of a burden it is to get a raven.
Not buying it, Terran has plenty of mineral heavy units of all types that can survive and even thrive until late game.
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On August 26 2011 03:07 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee Wait, so a single Raven needs to be maxed on energy in order to survive shooting an HSM? That's ridiculous. Just make it 7 range.
PDD is 100 energy, there's no way for a raven to cast both.
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What about for in battle against protoss for clumping zealots that charge you? EMP+HSM against zealots? Still it's just so expensive Just a thought.
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On August 26 2011 03:05 nodule wrote:
I kind of agree that the energy cost is a little high. If it were reduced to 100, a full energy raven can pop two into a raging battle, which could actually be quite effective.
One could argue that could be too strong ( not sure though ) . Reduced Energy cost on PTR and if its too good put a cooldown on the ability , problem solved. Sadly i doubt that change will occur.
The perfect changes too it would be Range 7/8 , 100 Energy and if needed a cooldown AND then maybe the Speedchange. Just changing the speed is going to change shit.
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This is an exciting change. Still wish the range of casting was higher, it would be at the cost of having more time to avoid, but staying out of feedback range ect.
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Seeker Missile will be used much more now that you can snap a lot of Air units with it, including unsuspecting vikings.
Also - protoss ground armies eat a dick to Seeker Missile, especially if the Terran gets more than 1 Raven (which will happen, look at Science Vessels). PDD/Seeker missile makes Ravens much more viable going into the mid-game for TvP, and partially for TvZ as well. Zealots, Archons, Immortals, Collosus, etc will allllll eat it to Seeker Missiles.
Can't wait to see some serious late game uses of these now much better unit.
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On August 26 2011 03:10 DumJumJmyWum wrote:What about for in battle against protoss for clumping zealots that charge you? EMP+HSM against zealots? Still it's just so expensive Just a thought.
Well you'll kill or damge your own bio massively . Bio does clump up like hell unlike other ranged Units because of the small size.
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This is great for air terran vs P. Now SM will do even better against Stalkers, not to mention that it hits faster, meaning the damge is faster, meaning you will be stronger during engagements.
On August 26 2011 03:10 DumJumJmyWum wrote:What about for in battle against protoss for clumping zealots that charge you? EMP+HSM against zealots? Still it's just so expensive Just a thought.
Expensive, but your units can stay alive. Like with any spellcasters (especially those that fly), they become stronger the later a game goes.
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On August 26 2011 03:11 Chronald wrote:
Seeker Missile will be used much more now that you can snap a lot of Air units with it, including unsuspecting vikings.
Also - protoss ground armies eat a dick to Seeker Missile, especially if the Terran gets more than 1 Raven (which will happen, look at Science Vessels). PDD/Seeker missile makes Ravens much more viable going into the mid-game for TvP, and partially for TvZ as well. Zealots, Archons, Immortals, Collosus, etc will allllll eat it to Seeker Missiles.
Can't wait to see some serious late game uses of these now much better unit.
The problem is the Protoss units don't clump enough for Seeker Missile to do enough damage against them. Trust me i tried the Protossunits are too big , not enough get hit.
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I think seeker missile would work best if it did less damage but also cost less energy, this way it is more rewarding to use several than try to get one successful powerful missile off, it would also make them less risky to use considering the chance they are dodge and the energy cost.
I dream of SK Terran <3
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I think this has been put in to help the gas surplus. But also to counter balance the Mothership buffs.
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Just off the top of my head---haven't really thought it through---what would happen if a HSM that misses its target would still explode at the end of its fuse instead of just disintegrating?
It still wouldn't hit units that can outrun or escape it (except with some splash). But could it force some more dedicated micro/army rearrangement? E.g., not just moving the whole ball away if the target is in the middle or if the ball includes slower units that will lag behind into the explosion radius of the HSM, etc. A sneaky HSM could sew some serious chaos in a big bunch of banelings for example.. (why wouldn't I just have tanks to deal with them? I guess I probably would  )
Doesn't really address what are probably biggger barriers to HSM right now: 6 range, Raven is slow and vulnerable, 125 energy cost which sacrifices 1-2 immediate PDDs.
Just thoughts.
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On August 26 2011 03:14 Exstasy wrote:
I think seeker missile would work best if it did less damage but also cost less energy, this way it is more rewarding to use several than try to get one successful powerful missile off, it would also make them less risky to use considering the chance they are dodge and the energy cost.
I dream of SK Terran <3
That's what I was thinking.. Imagine if it req 75 energy and did 65~ damage? pop 2 off for 130 damage, one misses nbd
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I've been going SKterran style with marine/hellion/raven recently. This just makes it sooo much better :D
gogogogo sk terran
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Hopefully, more usage if seeker missiles will promote more army-splitting micro (like muta splitting from irridate in BW).
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Can a zerg player neural parasite a raven to SM his own marine ?
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This will make HTs much more essential--feedback will wreck any Ravens looking to HSM.
Which, in turn will make Ghosts necessary to supplement Ravens in TvP.
Which in turn will push high level HTs to get Warp Prisms to give them a leg up in Ghost-HT duels...and Warp Prisms have now been hugely buffed.
But the buff is all shields, so even if a Ghost "misses" with an EMP carrying HTs, they will leave it vulnerable to being sniped, especially by anything that can do 100 damage, like HSM.
Except Warp Prisms with speed can outrun HSM...
I forsee pro-level PvT endgame getting frikking crazy/awesome with the potential spellcaster micro duels.
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I see this affecting zerg with the marine/hellion/raven comp, since that build has lots of free gas.
I don't see it being run against protoss since pdd is still more useful.
Also, hunter seekers deal friendly splash. The only units protoss have that clump up enough for HSM to be worth it are zealots. Enjoy targeting zealots as they wade through your bio ball. It will not be pretty.
This is great for current metagame TvT, because god I'm tired of hour long TvTs
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On August 26 2011 03:18 NuKedUFirst wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:14 Exstasy wrote:
I think seeker missile would work best if it did less damage but also cost less energy, this way it is more rewarding to use several than try to get one successful powerful missile off, it would also make them less risky to use considering the chance they are dodge and the energy cost.
I dream of SK Terran <3 That's what I was thinking.. Imagine if it req 75 energy and did 65~ damage? pop 2 off for 130 damage, one misses nbd
I seriously would love this, would make Terran so fun to play, whilst adding another viable Tech option, also very micro intensive, which is fun to play
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It's still a bad ability. Stop theorycrafting and think about what the HSM means, especially against toss. You think it's hard to find out which unit the hsm is after? I already split my units when baneling bombing is incoming, you think I won't split my templar? Oh, and good luck getting that raven passed any high templar; I already fb it to take care of pdds... What makes anyone think hsm is somehow better with the speed change? You still can't use it on workers, you're better off dropping turrets
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On August 26 2011 03:23 awesomoecalypse wrote:
This will make HTs much more essential--feedback will wreck any Ravens looking to HSM.
Which, in turn will make Ghosts necessary to supplement Ravens in TvP.
Which in turn will push high level HTs to get Warp Prisms to give them a leg up in Ghost-HT duels...and Warp Prisms have now been hugely buffed.
But the buff is all shields, so even if a Ghost "misses" with an EMP carrying HTs, they will leave it vulnerable to being sniped, especially by anything that can do 100 damage, like HSM.
Except Warp Prisms with speed can outrun HSM...
I forsee pro-level PvT endgame getting frikking crazy/awesome with the potential spellcaster micro duels.
THats a pipedream the PvT lategame will stay exactly as it is today . MMM/Ghosts/Vikings vs Gateway/HT/Colossus. You need your Starportbuildtime for Vikings and Medivacs .
They only way for Terrans to use HSM in PvT is ultralate on 5-6 Bases with enough overmins/gas to get additional 2-3 Starports for Ravens but that scenario is basically unwinnable because Protoss will literally have 50 Gateways and is basically unkillable because they'll reeinforce so freaking fast.
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People who are complaining about too much energy....Thats why you make more than one. Its a spellcaster, you make more than one of them to be effective. I think 4-5 is game breaking with PDD and HSM XD. My God I'm already scaired @_@. Infact I was always scaired of ravens as a zerg player.
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i have another idea....
Corvid Reactor:
* Increases the Raven's maximum energy by 50.
* Increases Raven starting energy from 50 to 62.5.
(copied from bw's science vessel  )
cast 2 HSMs or PDD & HSM!
maybe that's too imba though. an max energy increase by 25 might be good too. cast HSM and PDD or 2 turrets. sounds good to me.
i also like the idea of 75energy cost for the HSM and decreased damage.
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i think it'll be nice if seeker missile shoots out, creeps for about 2-3 second while targeting and the targeting is visible to all players. after the said time, it'll shoot out like a real missile and hit the target in an instant. this would work similar to irradiate, it gives, say a zerg player to react by micro'ing the targeted unit out and let it die alone and if its targeting infestor, it can cast spells before it dies.
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What happens if you burrow a unit that has a seeker missile on it. Will it still hit assuming it's out of range of detection?
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On August 26 2011 03:33 AWOT wrote:
People who are complaining about too much energy....Thats why you make more than one. Its a spellcaster, you make more than one of them to be effective. I think 4-5 is game breaking with PDD and HSM XD. My God I'm already scaired @_@. Infact I was always scaired of ravens as a zerg player.
Don't believe that a gas disparity between opponents like that would occur in any high level game that wasn't already basically won for the terran.
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On August 26 2011 03:33 AWOT wrote:
People who are complaining about too much energy....Thats why you make more than one. Its a spellcaster, you make more than one of them to be effective. I think 4-5 is game breaking with PDD and HSM XD. My God I'm already scaired @_@. Infact I was always scaired of ravens as a zerg player.
People aren't complaining about too much energy. They're complaining about 6 range. If you need 4-5 ravens to throw down a couple of PDD's and maybe 3 HSM, which can hit a pretty small area for 100 dmg each and might not even hit at all... yeah, HSM is not viable in any matchup. It might be viable in TvT viking wars now, if you fall behind.
Also, 5 ravens, that's 1000 gas. That could be 5 thors instead, or 8 siege tanks. All would do more damage.
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Late game TvP. Terran has 6 ravens.
EMP the HTs at front -> cast 6 seeker missiles -> GG.
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seeker missiles vs protoss? What would they hit? The zealots that are in your face? The stalkers that don't clump up enough for it to be nearly worth it? The high templars that were just emp'd, and are probably being morphed into archons already?
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On August 26 2011 03:40 Nimic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:33 AWOT wrote:
People who are complaining about too much energy....Thats why you make more than one. Its a spellcaster, you make more than one of them to be effective. I think 4-5 is game breaking with PDD and HSM XD. My God I'm already scaired @_@. Infact I was always scaired of ravens as a zerg player. People aren't complaining about too much energy. They're complaining about 6 range. If you need 4-5 ravens to throw down a couple of PDD's and maybe 3 HSM, which can hit a pretty small area for 100 dmg each and might not even hit at all... yeah, HSM is not viable in any matchup. It might be viable in TvT viking wars now, if you fall behind. Also, 5 ravens, that's 1000 gas. That could be 5 thors instead, or 8 siege tanks. All would do more damage.
one could look at the HSM as a big baneling with a chance of survival... could be useful in TvZ, since you can use it for muta defense, detection (creep tumors) AND the eventual "HSM bust". getting 2 ravens might be pretty freaking strong. especially with another change to the energy cost or the raven's max energy.
stop being so pessimistic pls. it's kinda annoying.
also, the area of effect isn't that small... storm for example has 1.5, HSM has 2.
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Great data on the OP.
I think that energy is still going to be an issue considering how long it takes to gather 125, however I am really looking foward to this. Hope its not borken though
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On August 26 2011 03:40 Nimic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:33 AWOT wrote:
People who are complaining about too much energy....Thats why you make more than one. Its a spellcaster, you make more than one of them to be effective. I think 4-5 is game breaking with PDD and HSM XD. My God I'm already scaired @_@. Infact I was always scaired of ravens as a zerg player. People aren't complaining about too much energy. They're complaining about 6 range. If you need 4-5 ravens to throw down a couple of PDD's and maybe 3 HSM, which can hit a pretty small area for 100 dmg each and might not even hit at all... yeah, HSM is not viable in any matchup. It might be viable in TvT viking wars now, if you fall behind. Also, 5 ravens, that's 1000 gas. That could be 5 thors instead, or 8 siege tanks. All would do more damage.
Welp, I guess its time for a terran Destiny to come out of hiding and show us mass marine/raven comp. I dunno, I just have like images in my head how the comp can work. A surround on both sides with marines and ravens coming out of the sides to plant the PDDs and HSMs...Maybe ravens get cloak (and are detection, thatd be OP--Oh wait =o) from HoTS. Oh to dream XD. It will be hilarious at first and then tears will be had...Don't take me seriously T_T.
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On August 26 2011 02:31 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee That would require 225 energy... A raven has 200.
If you are a stingy terran you deserve it really.If you get Seeker Missile you don't just make one Raven and win the game with it.I imagine this should be used versus Infestor play so if an Infestor moves in for a fungal he is gonna go down to that missile and maybe takes some buddies with him.Don't try to QQ before you think about it.
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On August 26 2011 03:46 AWOT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:40 Nimic wrote:On August 26 2011 03:33 AWOT wrote:
People who are complaining about too much energy....Thats why you make more than one. Its a spellcaster, you make more than one of them to be effective. I think 4-5 is game breaking with PDD and HSM XD. My God I'm already scaired @_@. Infact I was always scaired of ravens as a zerg player. People aren't complaining about too much energy. They're complaining about 6 range. If you need 4-5 ravens to throw down a couple of PDD's and maybe 3 HSM, which can hit a pretty small area for 100 dmg each and might not even hit at all... yeah, HSM is not viable in any matchup. It might be viable in TvT viking wars now, if you fall behind. Also, 5 ravens, that's 1000 gas. That could be 5 thors instead, or 8 siege tanks. All would do more damage. Welp, I guess its time for a terran Destiny to come out of hiding and show us mass marine/raven comp. I dunno, I just have like images in my head how the comp can work. A surround on both sides with marines and ravens coming out of the sides to plant the PDDs and HSMs...Maybe ravens get cloak (and are detection, thatd be OP--Oh wait =o) from HoTS. Oh to dream XD. It will be hilarious at first and then tears will be had...Don't take me seriously T_T.
painuser did it in beta and won games. dragon did it a few weeks ago in TvP and did at least pretty good.
but dragon also pulls off stuff like 5 planetary fortresses before the first rax and then builds ghosts only (TvZ).
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I don't know about other zergs, but sometimes in the late game I have a shitload of overlords clumped together ...
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I'm just baffled why HSM has so many disadvantages compared to the other AOE spells (fungal/EMP/storm).
- Needs to be researched (similar to storm in this regard)
- Costs 125 energy instead of 75
- Has a range of 6 instead of 9
- Is a relatively slow-moving projectile that can be avoided with micro
- Has a smaller AOE
I understand that a spell that deals 100 damage + AOE cannot be instant, but the disadvantages are just too much. The only reason I can personally think of is that its not even meant to be on the level of the more commonly used spells listed above. Its probably more of a "fun" ability meant for team games and FFA's, since terran has plenty of options as it is.
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On August 26 2011 03:49 Defacer wrote:
I don't know about other zergs, but sometimes in the late game I have a shitload of overlords clumped together ...
You must be confusing the HSM with something else, the spash is TINY. It will require two hsm's to maybe kill 2 overlords..
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ok i have another idea additional to my proposed max energy increase upgrade.
so, first of all.. change the raven's energy upgrade to increase the max energy by 50... and then add a 30 second cooldown for HSM, so you can't just immediately fire 2 HSMs.
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I've already experimented with Ravens vs Infestors in the current patch, seeker missile is AWFUL. Regardless of how clumped up the infestors are it will only kill 1 max and simply do splash to the rest.
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On August 26 2011 03:51 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:49 Defacer wrote:
I don't know about other zergs, but sometimes in the late game I have a shitload of overlords clumped together ... You must be confusing the HSM with something else, the spash is TINY. It will require two hsm's to maybe kill 2 overlords..
hsm has an area of 2, while storm has an area of 1.5 . but would still suck against overlords... yet it's good against clumped up army (mass zergling, roach, baneling, muta, etc)
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to the pdd people. feedback and neural still have range 9 ^.^ so no pdd won't allow a raven to use a seeker. (feedback scrambles seeker because you need so much energy for it so can't even have the raven survive the feedback mostly)
The skill is still crippled since the beta. They nerfed every good aspect while keeping the premade bad things to even out the strongest aoe besides nuke. The only buff was the move to the lower tier, which wasn't enough.
Now the seeker is even less viable for me =( . Used cloakd banshees to lurr the seeker over stacked infestors and clean up the rest (after seeker hits the banshee she still needs 2 fungals heh)
Not a problem either they will remove the skill or the raven with hots i assume (which i would hate i love the raven so much). So i hope they will do more tweaking on the seeker missile (and hopefully decrease the speed again, so you can abuse cloaked units again)
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remember guys... TvP isn't the only matchup. if HSM would be made more viable in TvZ and TvT, that would be really cool already.
you don't get storm in PvP either, right?!
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On August 26 2011 03:55 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:51 tnud wrote:On August 26 2011 03:49 Defacer wrote:
I don't know about other zergs, but sometimes in the late game I have a shitload of overlords clumped together ... You must be confusing the HSM with something else, the spash is TINY. It will require two hsm's to maybe kill 2 overlords.. hsm has an area of 2, while storm has an area of 1.5 . but would still suck against overlords... yet it's good against clumped up army (mass zergling, roach, baneling, muta, etc)
HSM does 25 dmg in an area of 2..., 50 dmg in an area of 1... 100 dmg in an area of 0.6.
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/b/bf/Marauderafter.jpg)
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I think something that needs to be said is it will counter the protoss death ball, if the units are all grouped up just have to send them at the collous that cant out run it, and bam will splash damge all the units under, ...will be very annoying if you havent speard your amry out
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what is a "fast zealot" ? you cant charge away (this patch also make new move order remove charge) so you can put out fast zealot plz this unit not exist
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Ravens could become new Infestors for Blizzard. Next 2-3 Patches would buff Ravens and they will become great. I think if range becomes 9 from 6 and energy cost becomes 75 Seeker missile would be viable against every race.
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On August 26 2011 03:57 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:55 beg wrote:On August 26 2011 03:51 tnud wrote:On August 26 2011 03:49 Defacer wrote:
I don't know about other zergs, but sometimes in the late game I have a shitload of overlords clumped together ... You must be confusing the HSM with something else, the spash is TINY. It will require two hsm's to maybe kill 2 overlords.. hsm has an area of 2, while storm has an area of 1.5 . but would still suck against overlords... yet it's good against clumped up army (mass zergling, roach, baneling, muta, etc) HSM does 25 dmg in an area of 2..., 50 dmg in an area of 1... 100 dmg in an area of 0.6.
is this before or after the undocumented damage change?
i do agree that HSM is probably useless at the moment... that's why i'm proposing changes like giving the raven a max energy upgrade. cause being able to cast 2 HSMs with one raven might actually be worthwhile.
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On August 26 2011 03:59 CoR wrote:
what is a "fast zealot" ? you cant charge away (this patch also make new move order remove charge) so you can put out fast zealot plz this unit not exist
Zealots Base speed increases when Charge is researched.
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On August 26 2011 02:43 Gemini_19 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:43 Tppz! wrote:On August 26 2011 02:41 Gemini_19 wrote:
Why do people completely wave away some ideas with out even trying them at all? This is the most flexible race we're talking about here... we tried this stuff in beta when seeker missile was way better :> You mean when the game was completely different?
Yeah when tanks did 70 damage, scvs were 60 hp, rax before depot, reaper speed, 30 second bunkers and all these cool things existed we tried seeker.
There really no point in getting seeker unless your trying to be different because its almost always more worth it getting a ghost.. which can wipe out armies with nukes XD
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Canada403 Posts
What you people fail to realize is how cost effective good control of caster units is, even watching the pros, they throw units away all the time, if they had ravens they would care more and avoid losing as many. Terrans basically always have an excess of gas late game, it really is not a problem. When analyzing something you have to look at it objectively, not provide your bias based on the any blaring cons that you happen to notice.
Furthermore, 6 range, what other unit does terran have??? Seige tanks! you place them 2 range behind the ravens and now you give your enemies an option, either charge in and try to kill the tanks, or run away and lose slow units to seeker missile.
Strategy is hard.
Only an idiot would go, "oh we have to test the viability of ravens, now how can we fly over that pack of stalkers and seeker missile them with only ravens?? oh we can't we would have to waste 200-400 for 1 seeker", but it is only 400-800 for 3 seeker missiles, 3 missiles can kill ~40 marines, all of their casters, or an absurd amount of banelings/zerglings(as they charge into you)
Another easy tactic is to just hide 3 ravens until you advance onto their creep with tanks and as they rush in you do what was described before, those lings either have to run away and continue to get shelled, or lose 20 lings in the immediate blast radius.
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On August 26 2011 03:56 beg wrote:
remember guys... TvP isn't the only matchup. if HSM would be made more viable in TvZ and TvT, that would be really cool already.
you don't get storm in PvP either, right?!
The comparison that should be made is, "Do you ever get increased observer speed?"
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On August 26 2011 04:10 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:56 beg wrote:
remember guys... TvP isn't the only matchup. if HSM would be made more viable in TvZ and TvT, that would be really cool already.
you don't get storm in PvP either, right?! The comparison that should be made is, "Do you ever get increased observer speed?"
no... people are arguing that HSM isn't viable at all because protoss has feedback. ok. but there's more than 1 matchup. it's no problem if HSM is useless in TvP. it doesn't need to be good in all 3 matchups.
thanks for your useful comment.
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On August 26 2011 04:11 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 04:10 tehemperorer wrote:On August 26 2011 03:56 beg wrote:
remember guys... TvP isn't the only matchup. if HSM would be made more viable in TvZ and TvT, that would be really cool already.
you don't get storm in PvP either, right?! The comparison that should be made is, "Do you ever get increased observer speed?" no... people are arguing that HSM isn't viable at all because protoss has feedback. ok. but there's more than 1 matchup. it's no problem if HSM is useless in TvP. it doesn't need to be good in all 3 matchups. thanks for your useful comment.
It's useless in all 3 matchups. Fabled said TvZ it was joke, and in TvP/TvT the raven has better uses. Dunno what you want from the unit.
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On August 26 2011 04:13 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 04:11 beg wrote:On August 26 2011 04:10 tehemperorer wrote:On August 26 2011 03:56 beg wrote:
remember guys... TvP isn't the only matchup. if HSM would be made more viable in TvZ and TvT, that would be really cool already.
you don't get storm in PvP either, right?! The comparison that should be made is, "Do you ever get increased observer speed?" no... people are arguing that HSM isn't viable at all because protoss has feedback. ok. but there's more than 1 matchup. it's no problem if HSM is useless in TvP. it doesn't need to be good in all 3 matchups. thanks for your useful comment. It's useless in all 3 matchups. Fabled said TvZ it was joke, and in TvP/TvT the raven has better uses. Dunno what you want from the unit.
i am discussing ways to actually make it useful
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On August 26 2011 04:06 Zirith wrote:
What you people fail to realize is how cost effective good control of caster units is, even watching the pros, they throw units away all the time, if they had ravens they would care more and avoid losing as many. Terrans basically always have an excess of gas late game, it really is not a problem. When analyzing something you have to look at it objectively, not provide your bias based on the any blaring cons that you happen to notice.
Furthermore, 6 range, what other unit does terran have??? Seige tanks! you place them 2 range behind the ravens and now you give your enemies an option, either charge in and try to kill the tanks, or run away and lose slow units to seeker missile.
Strategy is hard.
Only an idiot would go, "oh we have to test the viability of ravens, now how can we fly over that pack of stalkers and seeker missile them with only ravens?? oh we can't we would have to waste 200-400 for 1 seeker", but it is only 400-800 for 3 seeker missiles, 3 missiles can kill ~40 marines, all of their casters, or an absurd amount of banelings/zerglings(as they charge into you)
Another easy tactic is to just hide 3 ravens until you advance onto their creep with tanks and as they rush in you do what was described before, those lings either have to run away and continue to get shelled, or lose 20 lings in the immediate blast radius.
You could theorycraft a case for every unit to be effective, even mommaship and carriers. This doesn't actually mean they are viable in a competitive scenario.
Every unit and ability has a ROI, for seeker missile it happens to be pitiful. Expect this ability (and possibly the raven as an unit) to be completely reworked in HOTS. Its inevitable.
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On August 26 2011 03:50 Bagi wrote:
I'm just baffled why HSM has so many disadvantages compared to the other AOE spells (fungal/EMP/storm).
- Needs to be researched (similar to storm in this regard)
- Costs 125 energy instead of 75
- Has a range of 6 instead of 9
- Is a relatively slow-moving projectile that can be avoided with micro
- Has a smaller AOE
I understand that a spell that deals 100 damage + AOE cannot be instant, but the disadvantages are just too much. The only reason I can personally think of is that its not even meant to be on the level of the more commonly used spells listed above. Its probably more of a "fun" ability meant for team games and FFA's, since terran has plenty of options as it is.
Also remember the caster is flying so it is much easier to use as it is harder to kill and does not need to circumnavigate the army as other AOE casters do. It also can harass over edges and easily circumnavigate natural defensive terrain.
does that justify the cost, I still don't know but it will be interesting to see.
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Really the name hunter seeker missile is a trades description error
its more like a homing turd with a short timer. When it hits you you hate it but at the end of the day its no big deal.
Edit and why change a unit this close to hots if you are going to rework it?
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What about more worker harass? Workers were listed under the need a head start option. they get clumped up and it would rock groups of workers. Fly a raven around their mineral line and toss a missile at the probes/drones/scvs. Watch as they blow up like being hit by a baneling bomb.
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On August 26 2011 04:23 Xinder wrote:
What about more worker harass? Workers were listed under the need a head start option. they get clumped up and it would rock groups of workers. Fly a raven around their mineral line and toss a missile at the probes/drones/scvs. Watch as they blow up like being hit by a baneling bomb.
Except that banelings do their full damage in a much bigger area.
If every mineral node has 2 SCV's, you might kill 6 with one missile. Its probably better to toss 2-3 auto turrets instead.
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On August 26 2011 04:23 Xinder wrote:
What about more worker harass? Workers were listed under the need a head start option. they get clumped up and it would rock groups of workers. Fly a raven around their mineral line and toss a missile at the probes/drones/scvs. Watch as they blow up like being hit by a baneling bomb.
Because terran obviously can't rip through workers fast enough with stimmed marines and BFH as it is already?
Edit: Think I might have misread your post so nvm
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On August 26 2011 04:24 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 04:23 Xinder wrote:
What about more worker harass? Workers were listed under the need a head start option. they get clumped up and it would rock groups of workers. Fly a raven around their mineral line and toss a missile at the probes/drones/scvs. Watch as they blow up like being hit by a baneling bomb. Except that banelings do their full damage in a much bigger area. If every mineral node has 2 SCV's, you might kill 6 with one missile. Its probably better to toss 2-3 auto turrets instead.
Yeah but they can run from the auto turrets as they're being damaged. It's not instant. The raven sneaks in as one red dot on the map and the missile i don't think shows up so it gets in range, tosses missile, gets out. If they don't catch it then they lose 6+ workers. I don't see a prob with that? All harass forms have their risks that they just could completely fail. I dunno. Do i want Terran to have another harass form? Fuck no. Doesn't mean it still wouldn't work.
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On August 26 2011 03:57 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:55 beg wrote:On August 26 2011 03:51 tnud wrote:On August 26 2011 03:49 Defacer wrote:
I don't know about other zergs, but sometimes in the late game I have a shitload of overlords clumped together ... You must be confusing the HSM with something else, the spash is TINY. It will require two hsm's to maybe kill 2 overlords.. hsm has an area of 2, while storm has an area of 1.5 . but would still suck against overlords... yet it's good against clumped up army (mass zergling, roach, baneling, muta, etc) HSM does 25 dmg in an area of 2..., 50 dmg in an area of 1... 100 dmg in an area of 0.6.
Really? I thought the splash was much better than that ... Thank goodness.
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On August 26 2011 04:10 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:56 beg wrote:
remember guys... TvP isn't the only matchup. if HSM would be made more viable in TvZ and TvT, that would be really cool already.
you don't get storm in PvP either, right?! The comparison that should be made is, "Do you ever get increased observer speed?"
You don't?! Obs speed is awesome. Even seen MC get it. Obs spam+speed is so good in PvT, almost required when the ghost spam begins.
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On August 26 2011 03:59 CoR wrote:
what is a "fast zealot" ? you cant charge away (this patch also make new move order remove charge) so you can put out fast zealot plz this unit not exist
Charge also increases the passive movement speed of zealots from 2.25 to 2.75.
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On August 26 2011 04:21 rastaban wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:50 Bagi wrote:
I'm just baffled why HSM has so many disadvantages compared to the other AOE spells (fungal/EMP/storm).
- Needs to be researched (similar to storm in this regard)
- Costs 125 energy instead of 75
- Has a range of 6 instead of 9
- Is a relatively slow-moving projectile that can be avoided with micro
- Has a smaller AOE
I understand that a spell that deals 100 damage + AOE cannot be instant, but the disadvantages are just too much. The only reason I can personally think of is that its not even meant to be on the level of the more commonly used spells listed above. Its probably more of a "fun" ability meant for team games and FFA's, since terran has plenty of options as it is. Also remember the caster is flying so it is much easier to use as it is harder to kill and does not need to circumnavigate the army as other AOE casters do. It also can harass over edges and easily circumnavigate natural defensive terrain. does that justify the cost, I still don't know but it will be interesting to see.
Actually flying units are alot easier to snipe in battles , way easier to spot and focus them when in range. Most anti-air Units also will shoot Air-Units before ground Units automatically.
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On August 26 2011 04:29 Xinder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 04:24 Bagi wrote:On August 26 2011 04:23 Xinder wrote:
What about more worker harass? Workers were listed under the need a head start option. they get clumped up and it would rock groups of workers. Fly a raven around their mineral line and toss a missile at the probes/drones/scvs. Watch as they blow up like being hit by a baneling bomb. Except that banelings do their full damage in a much bigger area. If every mineral node has 2 SCV's, you might kill 6 with one missile. Its probably better to toss 2-3 auto turrets instead. Yeah but they can run from the auto turrets as they're being damaged. It's not instant. The raven sneaks in as one red dot on the map and the missile i don't think shows up so it gets in range, tosses missile, gets out. If they don't catch it then they lose 6+ workers. I don't see a prob with that? All harass forms have their risks that they just could completely fail. I dunno. Do i want Terran to have another harass form? Fuck no. Doesn't mean it still wouldn't work.
With turrets you can prevent mining time though.
I understand your point, but with seeker missile does very concentrated damage and the AOE is too small for it to be effective as worker harass. I think it'll kill workers from 3 nodes at most. Storm/fungal are much more effective with their bigger AOE. As terran you're better off dropping marines/hellions and saving the HSM for the opponents army.
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As a scientist, I hate replication of effort :S I posted this yeseterday:
On August 25 2011 13:16 mprs wrote:The Raven Change: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AMG0X.png) The black dot means HSM was faster than the stock speed of the unit. The double gray dot means HSM will be now faster (or the same) as this unit. So what changed? HSM will now be faster than:
- Workers (Probes, SCVs, Drones, and MULEs)
- Vikings
- Banshees
- Dark Templar
- Archons
HSM will now be the same speed as:
- Ultralisks
- Un-upgraded Zerglings
- Un-upgraded Reapers
- Corrupters
- Stalkers
Note: The speeds of the "same speed" units are actually 2.9531, and the Raven buff is listed as 2.953. I'm not sure if this is a rounding problem or if they are meant to be faster by an incredibly small amount so that they could out run the HSM over a long period of time. It wouldn't make sense because if they were the same speed, the same effect would occur. I personally believe that they are both 2.9531, but obviously that could be subject to change. I guess most notably, Seeker missles can really REALLY decimate worker lines if you don't know react very quickly and know which worker is being targeted. I guess this will make up for some of the lost worker destruction from the BFH nerf. Being faster than vikings will be a huge deal in TvT, as you can ward off pesky vikings away from tanks and what not. Being faster than archons is pretty meaningless, since HSM radius is 2.0 and it will pretty much only hit one archon 99% of the time (correct me if I'm wrong). Ultralisks are in the same category of explanation. Zerglings, DTs, and Reapers are non-issue. HSM can now be used to ward off a group of stalkers now I guess, which could be some cool play. This can also apply to corrupters, but I have a hard time finding a reason for a Z to use corrupters vs T. Perhaps this will allow sky Terran to be viable and having an answer for mass corrupters? To conclude, this change is going to have only significant repercussions in worker harass, and Vs. Viking and combat.
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On August 26 2011 04:33 mprs wrote:
As a scientist, I hate replication of effort :S I posted this yeseterday:
What's your take as a realist? ^^
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HSM still need lower energy cost, more damage and more range..
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Nerf the dmg to 50, buff the energy from 125 to 75 and increase the range from 6 to 8-9 and it will be viable. Don't get me wrong, it will probably see a lot more usage, most notably TvT, but with such short range its imo a very risky build/playstyle and I'd rather count on things I'm incontrol of rather than that my opponent doesn't counter me/plays badly.
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guys. guys. Instead of marine/tank you can do marine/raven =)
Ravens blow up mutalisks and can destroy globs of banelings/zerglings EZ
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On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee
lol...
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On August 26 2011 05:12 Jonas wrote:guys. guys. Instead of marine/tank you can do marine/raven =) Ravens blow up mutalisks and can destroy globs of banelings/zerglings EZ
Have fun engaging on creep with that against speedbanes bye bye Marines .
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Raven will never snipe infestor, infestor will fungal, or NP or jsut runa way and let anything else kill it :s
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costs too much energy, totally useless, ggnotksbye
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Will be fun to see Seekers being used on Banelings as Zerg runs in now
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This is only going to change late late late game. I mean whole map but 2 expansions are mined out and both players are using only casters because they can retain energy. It will make this late late late game composition MUCH more stronger. I fear that this will encourage more turtle play, but that is kind of silly. I don't think this will have a big affect on anything, tbh.
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On August 26 2011 04:57 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 04:33 mprs wrote:
As a scientist, I hate replication of effort :S I posted this yeseterday: What's your take as a realist? ^^
As a realist, I'm quite indifferent. <3
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HSM wasn't used much simply because most units just out run it. With the speed upgrade people are going to need nice splitting to keep damage at minimum. Although this will just require even more skill and apm from Protoss and Zerg when Terran is already the strongest race.
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don't know if this warrants a change in the TvT metagame, but at the very least seeker missile will be more effective late game.
still... TOO MUCH ENERGY.
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You know, it can be use to cover a tank line or something
When banes n lings are about to crash in the party you launch SMs all over the place and watch it as it melts before it reaches your stuff
inb4 "hurr it can be dodged, kill the raven, etc etc etc"
You people want it to be perfect and to require no skill whatsoever. Like, lauch 2 of this babys from the same raven at range 8 and call it imba later. There is no pleasing you guys.
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On August 26 2011 05:20 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:12 Jonas wrote:guys. guys. Instead of marine/tank you can do marine/raven =) Ravens blow up mutalisks and can destroy globs of banelings/zerglings EZ Have fun engaging on creep with that against speedbanes bye bye Marines .
Question: Why do you have ravens and they have creep? There can only be one...
Seriously, if you have great map awareness, this build is great vs banes (I added a few 'rauders with conc shell to help though ). Now they have to run full time (ie they can't circle around the HSM and attack again with the possibility of friendly fire).
It will be even better now that infestors cannot escape, reducing the need for ghosts (although due to bad range I think I still might need them).
And mutas were already lol against this build.
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Russian Federation798 Posts
Apart from all the disadvantages people here have listed, SM also damages own units........
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On August 26 2011 02:26 GeNeSiDe wrote:
you could always use squads of ravens to lay down covering PDD's while you move in with the seekers, is only not viable in situations where the opponent has a wall of AA. Science vessels used to drive above zergs armies casting irradiate and that was when scourge were in the sky...where there's a way there's a will, someone will figure it out and we will all copy it.
they had defensive matrix ...
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On August 26 2011 07:04 LAN-f34r wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 05:20 s3rp wrote:On August 26 2011 05:12 Jonas wrote:guys. guys. Instead of marine/tank you can do marine/raven =) Ravens blow up mutalisks and can destroy globs of banelings/zerglings EZ Have fun engaging on creep with that against speedbanes bye bye Marines . Question: Why do you have ravens and they have creep? There can only be one... Seriously, if you have great map awareness, this build is great vs banes (I added a few 'rauders with conc shell to help though ). Now they have to run full time (ie they can't circle around the HSM and attack again with the possibility of friendly fire). It will be even better now that infestors cannot escape, reducing the need for ghosts (although due to bad range I think I still might need them). And mutas were already lol against this build.
You need tanks against Banelings or spread like hell . HSM has less Splash then Siege Tanks but costs 125 Energy .
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I think the potential for worker harass could be a new use for the Raven. With PDD, the Raven could be used as an information gathering tool or if there is a fully saturated mineral line, a seeker missile could wipe it out. Even if the enemy player sees it coming, odds are the missile would have head enough of a head start that it would still hit regardless of evasive maneuvers.
I think the abilities of PDD, Seeker Missile, and Auto Turret have many combinations and situational uses that haven't really been fully explored yet by most Terran due to their gas mainly going towards Ghost/Viking/Mech or just general Tech.
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All I have say is this:
+ Show Spoiler +
Actually I have more to say - Good start for a buff. I'm sure Blizzard doesn't want to change HSM too much in one patch. If it's still unused and seems underpowered months later, I'm sure 1.5 will buff it.
Right now 1.4 already has a lot of balance changes so we'll wait and see.
Though arguably PDD is much more useful (and costs less energy) in most cases than HSM but still HSM still can be potential useful in certain situations (just much fewer than PDD).
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^ this.
I've thought about it for a while, and I feel like even if it wasn't intended, the speed change is just to help the usefulness of ravens in late game tvt, nothing else.
Most of the discussion here about viabilities of SM is the same regardless of the speed buff.
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On a less serious note, I wonder if this is a total reprecussion of:
"david some do it T>T"
-SlayerSBoxeR
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it will be simular to HTs tunder storm or infestor fungel.. but not as good as this two spells....at list blizzard is hoping to not be abusive like funge... i think... Of HSM
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On August 26 2011 04:32 Demonhunter04 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 03:59 CoR wrote:
what is a "fast zealot" ? you cant charge away (this patch also make new move order remove charge) so you can put out fast zealot plz this unit not exist Charge also increases the passive movement speed of zealots from 2.25 to 2.75.
What. I have never heard of or noticed this before, but according to liquipedia and a quick ingame test you are right. That is some pretty hidden knowledge you got there. Are you a wizard? Thanks anyways.
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At least with this speed change HSM can actually hit things. Raven+HSM upgrade is kind of a big investment. In the few situations I have used HSM or seen it used, for the most part the raven needs to be sacrificed to get close enough to targets. At least this way it won't go to waste and do significant damage.
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Not my broodlords ): its bad enough that battlecruisers can chase them down!!
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I feel like Zerg would be able to Neural Parasite them and force them to HSM their own units.
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HSM is still terrible. Kinda wish they brought it back to fusion core and gave it its original stats.
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I like this change, instead of the micro being "run away" it is now kinda like irradiate from BW in that you have to pick out the unit that is targetted by it and run things away from that particular unit. Though at 100 damage instantly if you fail its a bit more harsh than what irradiate did...
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Seeker Missile is still for Air Control. The splash makes it really good vs mutalisks and vikings. Using seeker missile on ground units is kind of redundant, because siege tanks are going to control space in TvZ and TvT. In TvP Ghosts/EMP is more effective than Seeker Missile. For the most part, I think Seeker Missile will only significantly be used in TvT. Thors are already good at warding off Mutas.
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On August 26 2011 03:01 Bagi wrote:
As long as the actual missile costs 125 energy, it will remain worthless.
Since it is very easy to avoid, its rare that HSM is even as effective as a storm/fungal/EMP, which all cost 75 energy.
You realize it is faster than 2/3 of the units in the game now so it isnt that easy to avoid. And what people don't get is that although it does less damage than the competitor spells if 8 hit one spot they all damage unlike fungal etc. Could destroy an army ball all in one go with a distraction.
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I was pretty curious about this, thanks for makin my life easier ^.^
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On August 26 2011 13:55 KevinIX wrote:
Seeker Missile is still for Air Control. The splash makes it really good vs mutalisks and vikings. Using seeker missile on ground units is kind of redundant, because siege tanks are going to control space in TvZ and TvT. In TvP Ghosts/EMP is more effective than Seeker Missile. For the most part, I think Seeker Missile will only significantly be used in TvT. Thors are already good at warding off Mutas.
What about ghost/raven TvP? EMP -> seeker missile = a dozen dead zealots if they dont micro right.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50107 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:31 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee That would require 225 energy... A raven has 200.
make more than one raven.
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I like ravens and I'm glad this change got in. I am a little concerned about it decimating worker lines...but it probably could of done it before if people tried it, and with enough micro they could avoid a losing all their workes.
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i don't see it being used anymore than it does really... definitely won't be used against zerg or toss
would be nice if ravens could get +50 max energy like they did in brood war. or else ravens with max energy is just as useful as a raven with 125 energy.
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It's still too much energy. It should be 100 energy, and the problem like other Terrans that use it will tell you is that the range is too short on doing the spell. If you HSM you essentially are always suiciding your raven.
So while units like the infestor have a good range on fungal and can escape to be used again, the raven is always dead after HSM.
They should increase the casting range to 6 or so along with this buff, then maybe we have a science vessel-like unit back.
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I really like the changes to HSM, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I always imagined HSM to be similar to irradiate. Used to separate units just like with irradiate you would need to micro that one unit out so it is with HSM spreading units until you discover which one it was target on :D Cannot wait to see the micro that comes from this :D
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I really hope they made like hunter seeker missle speed 4 so they cn catch mutas. This will force BW like micro where you have to look for your hurt muta. Will bring back the old SK terran but as it is right now still not good enough.
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It could blow up a worker line too right?? Especially if your oppopnent sees it and tries to run away and clumps up....
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United States7483 Posts
On August 26 2011 15:02 whoopingchow wrote:
It could blow up a worker line too right?? Especially if your oppopnent sees it and tries to run away and clumps up....
Or he could pull the one worker targeted out and you'd get only one kill. For the energy cost, you might as well drop a couple turrets for harass.
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Like someone suggested earlier, the issue is still range and energy, I think there are two things necessary to make HSM actually worthwhile.
Increase the cast range to 8.
Make Corvid Reactor increase maximum Raven energy instead of starting energy, increases the maximum by 50.
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On August 26 2011 04:33 mprs wrote:As a scientist, I hate replication of effort :S I posted this yeseterday: + Show Spoiler +On August 25 2011 13:16 mprs wrote:The Raven Change: The black dot means HSM was faster than the stock speed of the unit. The double gray dot means HSM will be now faster (or the same) as this unit. So what changed? HSM will now be faster than:
- Workers (Probes, SCVs, Drones, and MULEs)
- Vikings
- Banshees
- Dark Templar
- Archons
HSM will now be the same speed as:
- Ultralisks
- Un-upgraded Zerglings
- Un-upgraded Reapers
- Corrupters
- Stalkers
Note: The speeds of the "same speed" units are actually 2.9531, and the Raven buff is listed as 2.953. I'm not sure if this is a rounding problem or if they are meant to be faster by an incredibly small amount so that they could out run the HSM over a long period of time. It wouldn't make sense because if they were the same speed, the same effect would occur. I personally believe that they are both 2.9531, but obviously that could be subject to change. I guess most notably, Seeker missles can really REALLY decimate worker lines if you don't know react very quickly and know which worker is being targeted. I guess this will make up for some of the lost worker destruction from the BFH nerf. Being faster than vikings will be a huge deal in TvT, as you can ward off pesky vikings away from tanks and what not. Being faster than archons is pretty meaningless, since HSM radius is 2.0 and it will pretty much only hit one archon 99% of the time (correct me if I'm wrong). Ultralisks are in the same category of explanation. Zerglings, DTs, and Reapers are non-issue. HSM can now be used to ward off a group of stalkers now I guess, which could be some cool play. This can also apply to corrupters, but I have a hard time finding a reason for a Z to use corrupters vs T. Perhaps this will allow sky Terran to be viable and having an answer for mass corrupters? To conclude, this change is going to have only significant repercussions in worker harass, and Vs. Viking and combat.
As a fellow scientist...This makes no sense.
All science is based on replicated effort
Nice info by the way...
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I personally hope TLO uses it in some whacky german way. I can see it being used in defence to buy some time as a push comes. It's kind of like a force field in that way... but the real question is...
What will this do to the 1-1-1 build?!
Dun dun duuuuuhhhhhh.
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HSM continues to be a fucking useless ability. Although I guess Z players will probably find a way to whinge about it haha
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Not worth the investment until very late game...First, you have to get more starports (unless you only want a few/slow production) then tech labs on them then upgrade seeker missile....that's a lot of gas. Plus, as the others said it only has a range of 6 and the radius isn't too big, oh and there a lot of things that PDD doesn't cover so they are still very vulnerable.
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I'm just waiting to see someone try to SM an infestor only to have the raven NP and bomb the terran units instead. It's almost as epic as the zerg - storm when protoss tries to feedback infestors
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With increasing burrowed baneling shenanigans I can see how the raven will just start showing up in compositions. At least some buffs will keep the raven from being only detection in those cases.
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On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile.
Every time is wrong every time.
On August 26 2011 15:19 DONTPANIC wrote:
I personally hope TLO uses it in some whacky german way. I can see it being used in defence to buy some time as a push comes. It's kind of like a force field in that way
It doesn't buy time.
The only thing in common with forcefield is the fact that it's a spell.
What will this do to the 1-1-1 build?!
Dun dun duuuuuhhhhhh.
Delay it further. :/
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As far as I know if the infestor burrows the missile gets dead. So burrow becomes even more vital vs terran than it already is. Very good change in my eyes. Especially the "getting back from a viking disadvantadge" in TvT.
The only thing im worried about is TvP. although a Phoenix can outrun it they have so little health that one hit in a phoenix fleet will take it to half hp instantly wich will make marines kill them in 0.1 sec instead of 0.2 =/
edit: Oh shit I forgot the raven is a detector.....infestor needs no use his 6 legs pretty fast then since the raven itself is still pretty slow. maybe it can outrun the detection range...idk
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On August 26 2011 02:31 Doodlerapid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee I've got three words for you. Too much energy.
More like too much gas.
Yes, when you have taken half the map and you have the gas to support a 200 / 200 marine tank ghost viking army with 3 / 3 upgrades, you can build 3 starports and get lots of ravens to kill expansions with auto turrets and to own armies with pdds and seeker missiles.
BUT IF YOU GET TO THAT POINT, YOU HAVE WON THE GAME ANYWAY WITHOUT GETTING THE RAVENS.
And if you even think about cutting tanks or ghosts to get ravens instead, the Zerg will roflstomp you.
I remember in 2010 in the beta and shortly after release, when Terran could get away with just making marines and marauders and medivacs in TvZ. After I got my third I used to get lots of ravens and just fly around and kill expansions with mass auto turrets. Lol. :D Now you need to actually use the excess gas for tanks.
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On August 26 2011 16:13 Xacalite wrote:
As far as I know if the infestor burrows the missile gets dead. So burrow becomes even more vital vs terran than it already is. Very good change in my eyes. Especially the "getting back from a viking disadvantadge" in TvT.
The only thing im worried about is TvP. although a Phoenix can outrun it they have so little health that one hit in a phoenix fleet will take it to half hp instantly wich will make marines kill them in 0.1 sec instead of 0.2 =/
edit: Oh shit I forgot the raven is a detector.....infestor needs no use his 6 legs pretty fast then since the raven itself is still pretty slow. maybe it can outrun the detection range...idk
I'm waiting for the day someone uses a Raven's Seeker Missile in combination with Marine or MM drop. while on 2 bases in TvP. Or even with Blue Flame. While the harass is at one base, you just drop the HSM at the workers on the other (or the ones transferring). Since the Raven has a lot of solid uses after the fact, you don't have to risk too much getting it.
Oh, just thinking about Tal`Darim. Since the Raven doesn't have an attack, it can pretty much just hide over that land-mass between the 2nd and 3rd. Drop the main, Seeker Missile either the works or the entire clump of Army that's moving between. Then stim into the front. That's a nasty, nasty attack path. (Have another Raven and 1-2 Banshees, and that's total ownage, really)
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On August 26 2011 14:58 mcmartini wrote:
I really like the changes to HSM, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I always imagined HSM to be similar to irradiate. Used to separate units just like with irradiate you would need to micro that one unit out so it is with HSM spreading units until you discover which one it was target on :D Cannot wait to see the micro that comes from this :D
People tried that in BETA, its no-where near as effective.
Irradiate
75 Energy (3 Irradiates for a maxed energy Vessel)
Range 9
250 damage splash over time, to biological
HSM
125 Energy (1 HSM for a maxed energy Raven)
Range 6
100 damage splash
Consider the fact that Vessels were still very useful without irradiate, because of detection, defense matrix (guaranteed drops yo), and EMP (which is way more powerful than in SC2).
Vessels also move faster and have more HP than ravens.
On August 26 2011 17:08 Taf the Ghost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 16:13 Xacalite wrote:
As far as I know if the infestor burrows the missile gets dead. So burrow becomes even more vital vs terran than it already is. Very good change in my eyes. Especially the "getting back from a viking disadvantadge" in TvT.
The only thing im worried about is TvP. although a Phoenix can outrun it they have so little health that one hit in a phoenix fleet will take it to half hp instantly wich will make marines kill them in 0.1 sec instead of 0.2 =/
edit: Oh shit I forgot the raven is a detector.....infestor needs no use his 6 legs pretty fast then since the raven itself is still pretty slow. maybe it can outrun the detection range...idk I'm waiting for the day someone uses a Raven's Seeker Missile in combination with Marine or MM drop. while on 2 bases in TvP. Or even with Blue Flame. While the harass is at one base, you just drop the HSM at the workers on the other (or the ones transferring). Since the Raven has a lot of solid uses after the fact, you don't have to risk too much getting it. Oh, just thinking about Tal`Darim. Since the Raven doesn't have an attack, it can pretty much just hide over that land-mass between the 2nd and 3rd. Drop the main, Seeker Missile either the works or the entire clump of Army that's moving between. Then stim into the front. That's a nasty, nasty attack path. (Have another Raven and 1-2 Banshees, and that's total ownage, really)
I've been using Ravens in TvZ since beta. Auto-turrets are a much better tool for every situation than HSM.
Using HSM on workers??? People would have done that pre-patch if it was that viable. Its barely a buff, yet people are acting like HSM can now perform miracles.
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SoCal8910 Posts
"TvZ Infestor Repellant
The raven can now be a strong infestor sniper. If off creep the infestor will surely die and if on creep the infestor must be micro'ed away."|
im sure im not gonna be the first person or last person to say this, but i guess terrans have another answer to their infestor "problem" now. we'll see how it plays out..i personally think the seeker missile needs to be tuned down a tad or given more acceleration. only because it is gonna require your reaction time to be superb unless you have a sicko spread.
again, we'll see how testing on the PTR goes. i dread terrans finally figuring out how good this ability is for zoning out a zerg
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DOA is probably pumped for this patch.
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Range is still 6. Infestor can neural or fungal the Raven from miles more.
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So last patch they buffed ghosts (which were already great for their cost) because they want more T to wake up and realize how useful ghosts are in every match up.
Now in this upcoming patch they plan to severely buff Ravens for the same reason (T have so much great shit they don't realize how good Ravens are, so we'll make Ravens even better!)
Even aside from the fact they keep buffing already-useful units for the already-best race, it's obnoxious of Blizzard's balance team to push a desired metagame on the community.
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troll post?
i love that they've done something to seeker missile, acknowledging that it's broken....
but the change is a joke.
if a voidray sees 5 full mana ravens flying towards it, allow 1 raven to fire a missile, then retreat from the slow-ass ravens and laugh at them before the others get within 6 range...
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Not trolling.
Ghosts were awesome in all match-ups pre-buff and Ravens are already awesome in all match-ups without a useful HSM.
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A lot of you guys don't realize this but this is a big change for 2v2 games. I mean it was not that hard to beat mass Void Rays before but now EMP + HSM is going to rape those Void Rays like no tomorrow.
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Wouldn't the increased speed in the hsm give mech players the option to advance a lot faster? My reasoning is that as long as the hsm is on the way you can do whatever the fuck you want with your siege tanks, the moment he tries to engage you, he has a serious blow dealt to him with the missile.
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Terran has so much depth and creativity for their units, this will likely be awesome.
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as a zerg player me no gusta, i think the fact that you've gotta be pretty perfect on with worker micro means its gonna get nerfed a bit, thats just my opinion though
+ Show Spoiler +maybe terran will get another OP spellcaster cause they're too retarded to use them
User was warned for this post
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now zerg vs t lategame becomes even more usless.fungal wont help vs vikings. and mech+ ghost rape everything anyways.
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It may seem strange, but I think this may effectively make tanks more mobile in a sense in the late game.
The way I'm thinking about it (which is straight opinion at this point, but may be developed at some point) if you're in the late game trying to control space with your tanks (either vs T or Z), the big vulnerability is having units move in to attack while you're relocating them during non-sieged windows.
A couple of ravens may possibly serve as a deterrent as they'll force the army pushing into your moving tanks to either retreat (buying time for you to siege) or take decent sized chunks of damage onto the units.
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On August 27 2011 05:51 isleyofthenorth wrote:
now zerg vs t lategame becomes even more usless.fungal wont help vs vikings. and mech+ ghost rape everything anyways.
emm infestors have NP that can hit ravens before they even think about HSM.....
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On August 28 2011 02:07 Everhate wrote:
It may seem strange, but I think this may effectively make tanks more mobile in a sense in the late game.
The way I'm thinking about it (which is straight opinion at this point, but may be developed at some point) if you're in the late game trying to control space with your tanks (either vs T or Z), the big vulnerability is having units move in to attack while you're relocating them during non-sieged windows.
A couple of ravens may possibly serve as a deterrent as they'll force the army pushing into your moving tanks to either retreat (buying time for you to siege) or take decent sized chunks of damage onto the units.
why why why in the world would you build more than 1 raven in anything except TvT, the only thing they are good for in TvZ are so you dont have to use scans for burrowed banelings and use PDD to stop ONE muta voley
I mean if you actualy hit a perfect HSM into 20 blings the splash only kills like 3 of them anyway, and they are still useless against infestors with the 6 range
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With medivacs being "Doomed", it seems that Ravens can be used effectively to combat drop play
Also may force Warp prism speed if anyone wants to Drop in PvT.
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On August 26 2011 02:31 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee That would require 225 energy... A raven has 200.
I just wanted to say this made me laugh really hard.
I guess the concept of "more than one raven" really is foreign to a lot of people
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On August 29 2011 04:08 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:31 tnud wrote:On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee That would require 225 energy... A raven has 200. I just wanted to say this made me laugh really hard. I guess the concept of "more than one raven" really is foreign to a lot of people
sooo 200 mineral 400 gas is a good investment for a single target spell that deals 100 damage? (and pathetic negligible aoe)
imo, to be a useful spell it would need one of the following:
- more single target damage
- more aoe damage
- longer range
- lower cost
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still too much energy. could care less about this buff as i dont think it will help terran really except in late game tvt. i hope im wrong tho
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On August 27 2011 05:51 isleyofthenorth wrote:
now zerg vs t lategame becomes even more usless.fungal wont help vs vikings. and mech+ ghost rape everything anyways.
try use new ultralisc ? lol :D interestig how ppl know to QQ and dont try their race buffs....
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HSM still sucks. The only other spells in the game that cost that much are:
Yamato Cannon: 300 damage, 10(?) range, virtually guaranteed hit. Once it starts charging even if they unit moves out of range Yamato still hits it. Thus while Yamato is expensive, it is highly reliable and thus has a place in the game.
250mm Strike Cannons: 500 damage, stuns, 7 range. The obscene energy cost and crappy range make it virtually unusable though, and Thors do more DPS through normal shooting. It's only real use is on Immortals but that was nerfed with the Thor energy changes. In other words, this spell sucks and it has no place in the game currently.
HSM has the same problem as the 250mm strike cannons. It's casting range sucks and the energy cost is too high. HSM has the additional problem in that it's damage is far too low for its cost and it can be outrun! Even accounting for the fact that it's AoE damage, it should still be doing ~150 damage minimum for that crazy energy cost. If they want to maintain the current damage levels, it needs extra casting range and should be much harder (impossible) to avoid, kind of like Irradiate from BW. Something that costs that much energy SHOULD BE reliable, not a shoot and pray.
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I think JAY-Z said it best.
If you're havin' Missile problems I feel bad for you son. I've got 99 problems, but splitting units ain't one.
I think this is a good change overall the only issue being that Terran seems like the strongest race atm so while this individual upgrade certainly needed a buff. People will still find room to complain on the basis of Terran's overall strength not the actual strength of this ability. Which is fair enough I suppose. Units in strategy games certainly don't exist in a vacuum, but between the value of pdd, the 125 energy cost, the 6 range and seeker missile still being a upgrade that requires a fusion core. I don't believe this will be, "overpowered" for the cross race match-ups and it should add some excitement to TvT air battles.
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i only see it being used in tvt really if at all
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I've been using it the last few days in my TvZ's... after setting up a mech contain I send a SM or 2 into the staging zerg swarms. (I usually have a raven or 2 anyway). Either does nice damage (further delaying the breakout) or causes units to run which allows siege tanks to leap frog another step.
I assume with patch this will be even more efficient / explosive.
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What needs to be fixed is the acceleration rate, not the speed. It's still unusable vs zerg because they're so fast. 6 seeker missiles coming at you? no problem, bumrush the terran, he'll kill himself. I tried about 5 tvz's today going FE and double port pumping out ravens. It's workable, but terrible compared to standard marine tank. The missiles need to accelerate way faster than it does now.
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On August 26 2011 02:31 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee That would require 225 energy... A raven has 200.
Ever heard of making more than one raven? i know its a new and exciting concept!
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On September 02 2011 06:02 Soulish wrote:
What needs to be fixed is the acceleration rate, not the speed. It's still unusable vs zerg because they're so fast. 6 seeker missiles coming at you? no problem, bumrush the terran, he'll kill himself. I tried about 5 tvz's today going FE and double port pumping out ravens. It's workable, but terrible compared to standard marine tank. The missiles need to accelerate way faster than it does now.
I don't think the point is to have you double port pumping ravens, I think two ravens should suffice, and until this gets implemented you shouldn't have more than one and that's just for PDD.
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On September 02 2011 06:09 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 06:02 Soulish wrote:
What needs to be fixed is the acceleration rate, not the speed. It's still unusable vs zerg because they're so fast. 6 seeker missiles coming at you? no problem, bumrush the terran, he'll kill himself. I tried about 5 tvz's today going FE and double port pumping out ravens. It's workable, but terrible compared to standard marine tank. The missiles need to accelerate way faster than it does now. I don't think the point is to have you double port pumping ravens, I think two ravens should suffice, and until this gets implemented you shouldn't have more than one and that's just for PDD.
Probably not, but I want to play like sk terran in sc2 and I was trying out double port raven, which actually gives you a bigger marine count than going marine tank. The problem with pdd in tvz is that no one makes roachs or hydras, so in essence the raven is only used for auto turrets (I'm trying to develop a timing where I put down turrets in a line (deep) to complete my wall to keep my FE safe, it's somewhat useful I think because it's like a complete wall off except no minerals will be lost if you kill it). and hsm. Autoturrets are pretty useful due to the high dps/health/attribute but I was trying to focus more on hsm.
A great benefit of going ravens means a viable way to deal with mutas other than marines and thors (autoturret and hsm) and also, the zerg will be able to gain 0 creep spread.
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On September 02 2011 06:09 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 06:02 Soulish wrote:
What needs to be fixed is the acceleration rate, not the speed. It's still unusable vs zerg because they're so fast. 6 seeker missiles coming at you? no problem, bumrush the terran, he'll kill himself. I tried about 5 tvz's today going FE and double port pumping out ravens. It's workable, but terrible compared to standard marine tank. The missiles need to accelerate way faster than it does now. I don't think the point is to have you double port pumping ravens, I think two ravens should suffice, and until this gets implemented you shouldn't have more than one and that's just for PDD.
Ravens build like forever IF you build Raven you gotta have more then 1 Port for them just like if you build BC's . Especially since even if you get the korvid reactor you still need to wait ages to get enough energy for Seeker Missiles .
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The best use of the SM is still to redirect enemy troops so tanks can siege up.
Maybe in a choke you could use it to "force" your enemy into sieged tanks by sneaking from behind, but that is a bit absurd.
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On August 28 2011 04:09 cilinder007 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2011 02:07 Everhate wrote:
It may seem strange, but I think this may effectively make tanks more mobile in a sense in the late game.
The way I'm thinking about it (which is straight opinion at this point, but may be developed at some point) if you're in the late game trying to control space with your tanks (either vs T or Z), the big vulnerability is having units move in to attack while you're relocating them during non-sieged windows.
A couple of ravens may possibly serve as a deterrent as they'll force the army pushing into your moving tanks to either retreat (buying time for you to siege) or take decent sized chunks of damage onto the units. why why why in the world would you build more than 1 raven in anything except TvT, the only thing they are good for in TvZ are so you dont have to use scans for burrowed banelings and use PDD to stop ONE muta voley I mean if you actualy hit a perfect HSM into 20 blings the splash only kills like 3 of them anyway, and they are still useless against infestors with the 6 range
Why in the world? Suicide bombing stacked mutalisks (i.e. a less effective irradiate)? Remember that the range is still greater than a mutalisks ( 6 vs. 3(or 4)). It's true that the raven will most likely die (unless you cast 2 seekers at the group). The mutalisk can outrun the seeker missile unless you go into point blank range. Sure it requires micro but the mutalisks require micro too. It also acts as a deterrent for mutalisk harass.
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Not sure if this has been asked but if you burrow the infestor that was targeted by hsm will the missile still hit or does it deactivate? I'm on my phone at work can't test ._.
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On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee
One word.
Marines.
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On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee
you cant SM after you PDD
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On September 02 2011 09:39 Fall.182 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee you cant SM after you PDD
Who in their right mind would tech to HSM and then not build more than one raven? Really.
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On September 02 2011 09:39 Fall.182 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee you cant SM after you PDD
At least try to read the thread.
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I noticed Seeker Missile doesn't damage buildings anymore. Secret change? o.o
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On August 26 2011 02:39 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:35 tnud wrote:
Imagine that, 225 energy for 100 dmg at 6 range in a tiny area that some units can simply dodge. Also, research. Gee, I better start using that. The Raven is clearly a support unit - every spell in its arsenal is best used for support as you engage in a bigger battle, for zoning as both armies jostle for the best possible position to engage.
Think of it as a defensive nuke -> it's forcing army movement, allowing you to get into a better position yourself + distracting your opponent and putting an additional burden of micro and attention on him.If getting a H-S missile off is all you're trying to do while your army waits around doing nothing - yeah, the effort and expense will probably not be worth it. edit: it's obviously still very situational and won't make the Raven the new core unit of the Terran army, if that's what you guys were expecting. >_>
You are on to something I guess... I would actually consider seeker missiles if I could target the ground. Then I could use it for positional advantage.
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On August 26 2011 02:33 Xinder wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 02:31 tnud wrote:On August 26 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:On August 26 2011 02:14 bLah. wrote:
Range 6 people... Range 6. You still lose a raven every time you shoot that missile. I've got three words for you. pee dee dee That would require 225 energy... A raven has 200. Build more than one raven? One lays down PDD as the other one comes in for the seeker missle.
That's 400 gas for one seeker missile though. And then you have to wait around 2 minutes to be able to do it again lol. AND it has to be massed out of a starport with a tech lab. Compare that with an ability like storm, fungal growth, or emp. To be honest, I'd much rather spend that money on 4 nukes.
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what about the zerg units that burrow?
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honestly i WISH this was viable i really do, i might be fun. but its really not at all. its actually retarded. and too bad ;/
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Well. Raven's are still non-viable in TvP due to feedback.
In TvZ, it might enable some additional air play tho.
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United Kingdom20284 Posts
On August 26 2011 02:13 s3rp wrote:
125 Energy is still too much. Only in the latest of late Games will it be used.
Jinro has been ripping up korean GM TvZ by constantly making ravens out of 3 starports from around 15 minutes in and using seeker missiles to destroy infestors, blords, ultralisks and any clumps of units while going heavy bio
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United States7483 Posts
There was an awesome game of Nestea vs. Gumiho (I think it was Gumiho) where he went for a heavy mech style with ravens for seeker missile. He used it to zone for the mech, and units can't dart in vs. siege tanks and then have to turn around and run from a seeker missile without taking heavy losses from the free shots the tanks get.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0EaJ3.gif)
