On August 22 2011 02:55 Telcontar wrote: NEXSickness just posted a topic on playxp, titled 'Confirmed: Puzzle-hyung to SlayerS'. It was then deleted like 2 seconds later. Nothing concrete, but it seems more and more likely that this is true.
Might just be a matter of time until this becomes official.
Edit #2: Small edit just to say that the IPL bracket is now visible: http://playhem.com/tourney/10401 And like it was mentioned before, "slayerspuzzle" is no longer on the list.
Edit #1: Some people have said that "slayerspuzzle" ended up being removed from the tournament list. I can't tell now because the page is now spoilered because IPL intends to cast the results later in the week. It could mean something about the legitimacy of this rumor (maybe it was a phony), or maybe Puzzle just couldn't show. MKP for instance decided to withdraw from the qualifier and was removed from the list.
Milkis and FXOpen(Boss?) have weighed in on the situation but their comments have been non-commital so far:
On August 20 2011 22:57 FXOpen wrote: wow i must be psychic ......... ./end troll
On August 20 2011 22:54 Milkis wrote: Hmmm, I wouldn't call SlayerS the EG of Korea. The Coca + Puzzle situation is quite different after all :p
On August 21 2011 00:28 mprs wrote: That leaves ZeNex with Line and Byun. :S
Still though, Coca and Puzzle do add a shit ton of race depth to SlayerS. Before, it was a bunch of sick Terrans and Alicia.
I feel that assuming 100% certainty of this transfer is a huge mistake. Especially given that the player has been removed from the signup list (for reasons unknown) and the fact that the title of this thread includes the caveat "rumor" in it.
I agree.
So no concrete news yet. It's still a rumor at this point. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Original Post:
On August 20 2011 19:21 cablesc wrote: This post is strictly based on conjecture so take it with a grain of salt and feel free to lock if necessary.
Now it could just be someone else using an alias but I think it is the Korean pro ZenexPuzzle who is signing with Slayers for the following reasons:
- Looking at the sign-up list, you'll notice that the field is almost entirely made up of known pro gamers. There barely any non-pros that are just trying their luck. So there's little reason to think that someone is smurfing posing as slayerspuzzle.
- Slayers already signed up a bunch of guys to this tournament. So it's clear that they're taking this tournament seriously. More evidence that it's not a smurf fake.
- Former zenex players Coca and Taeja have already gone over to Slayers. So puzzle could be joining his friends in making the move and Slayers is raiding zenex once again. It makes more sense than if puzzle was listed under some other team.
It could be some elaborate troll but considering that the qualifiers are only a couple hours away, I don't see the point. I think there's a very high likelihood that Puzzle is moving on to Slayers.
^^ slayers snapping the top zenex drama, indeed more esports drama incoming
of course only if its true, wouldn't be surprising though I mean even boxer/Jessica must have realized at this point that slayers needs more protoss/zergs and that alicia is not enough
It would make sense if this is true. They have a very strong Terran lineup and now is trying to boost its Zerg and Toss lineup (there's Alicia but he seems to be somewhat inconsistent).
If Slayers was any other team people might just start comparing them to EG
Sick :D SlayerS are smart to grab all the up and comming players from Zenex and giving them the opportunities to practice with a professional team. I really think both CoCa and Puzzle will grow a lot in SlayerS.
Considering CoCa recently switched, this is looking to be possibly true. Would be amazing for SlayerS to get another formidable protoss in their terran-heavy ranks but ZeNex isn't looking too hot.
If you look at his next to his name, it says GM Rank 35. If you go to Sc2ranks and look at KR GM rank 35, it's NEXPuzzle. I'd say he is most likely now apart of SlayerS, unless this is an elaborate troll like OP stated.
if the zenex team disbands what happens to byun, byun is amazingly good and i'm sure slayers won't want more terran, but more importantly, what happens to the puppy?!?! PS: i'm well aware that zenex team disbanding was just a troll, but if puzzle leaves zenex it might actually happen
if its true than it will be a great move for slayers, adding a top tier protoss to their stacked terran line up :D. However zenex is slowly losing all their top tier players who do they have left? byun hack.... hopefully puzzle will become a pvt beast after joining with slayers :D
Feel bad for Zenex :/ Their team was just shaping up to be quite strong with players like Puzzle and Byun, but now that Coca has left and Puzzle maybe has left, things don't look too good for them.
With that said, SlayerS is my favorite team so I'm glad they're picking up even more strong players if this is true. Puzzle, MMA, Ryung, Taeja, Alicia, Coca, BoxeR, and Ganzi? Wow.
Very good chance this is true, I remember the first info we heard about Tester joining ST was him signing up as ST_Trickster in the NASL Qualifiers before they made the official announcement
perhaps there might be some sort of merging between the two teams, zenex is relatively small and not as mainstream as slayers, slayers has a lot of sponsors and can pay players to play in foreign tournaments, etc. we might be seeing slayers_puppy for now on
It seems like ZeNEX will just dissolve without those players. :=/ but hopefully a good career move for Puzzle if it's true, I would slayers is second best team to IM in terms of kick-ass practice partners
If this turns out to be trolling or a farse, I'm sure there will be an appropriate shitstorm.
However, if this is a legitimate switch, than it must be said that SlayerS will have arguably (or potentially undeniably) the most deep, complete lineup (even their "practice team" players are REALLY good). As it stands SlayerS is a spectacular team (my personal favorite, by far!) with a very good line of sponsors, strong coaching, and a difficult training regime. With a more well rounded/stronger A-team lineup this will only serve to benefit them (the team as a whole), the players on their team (in terms of individual growth/opportunity), and us fans (better games and even greater demonstrations of skill/strategy!).
Regardless of the outcome, as sad as it will be to see any drain on another team's roster (CoCa and -possibly- puzzle), I can't say I mind having SlayerS becoming more solidified as an undeniably fierce team. Furthermore, I also don't necessarily mind the conglomeration of brilliant players onto one roster, as we will be able to bear witness to their growth and increasing excellence of both the team and the players involved.
On August 20 2011 20:33 haka wrote: Puzzle moving would be great for SlayerS. He's probably one of the best tosses out there right now and SlayerS could really use someone like him.
that would be awesome! Puzzle is my 2nd favourite korean toss (after MC) and slayers is my favorite korean team! its like Liquid and HuK all over again!
On August 20 2011 20:40 antilyon wrote: Slayers, aka Asian EG.
SlayerS actually wins things and fosters the talent they buy though.
And don't really have "dead weight". I' really dislike referring to anyone like that but some players in EG are just leagues above the others even in theory. You can't really say that in SlayerS.
On August 20 2011 20:33 haka wrote: Puzzle moving would be great for SlayerS. He's probably one of the best tosses out there right now and SlayerS could really use someone like him.
Obviously sucks for Zenex.
slayers has alicia and frozen though
Frozen really hasn't done much so far, and Alicia seems to be in a little slump right now. Puzzle would definitely be a fantastic acquisition for SlayerS along with CoCa.
I can see it happening because from a players point of view there is no downside. I mean you get more financial support, an equal or greater training environment, and also you have friends you know in Coca and Taeja.
On August 20 2011 20:53 farnham wrote: OMG Aozora is going to be very angry
On August 20 2011 20:33 haka wrote: Puzzle moving would be great for SlayerS. He's probably one of the best tosses out there right now and SlayerS could really use someone like him.
Obviously sucks for Zenex.
slayers has alicia and frozen though
Frozen really hasn't done much so far, and Alicia seems to be in a little slump right now. Puzzle would definitely be a fantastic acquisition for SlayerS along with CoCa.
frozen has been great in the team leagues and you cant disregard players just because they are in a slump
I would rather ZeNEX was disbanding than all of it's top players being taken off the team. Fucking hell, I could deal with Coca leaving but not Puzzle as well. Favourite team seems to be dieing, Happy for Puzzle and Coca obviously but both of them? in a week? fuck.
If they Disband I really hope somone picks up cOre, Line, Naya, Kyrix etc. I hate this week haha
On August 20 2011 21:28 Fermats_last wrote: I would rather ZeNEX was disbanding than all of it's top players being taken off the team. Fucking hell, I could deal with Coca leaving but not Puzzle as well. Favourite team seems to be dieing, Happy for Puzzle and Coca obviously but both of them? in a week? fuck.
If they Disband I really hope somone picks up cOre, Line, Naya, Kyrix etc. I hate this week haha
On August 20 2011 21:26 NuclearJudas wrote: Since ZENEX seems to be disbanding, this isn't all to surprising. I like Puzzle and Slayers, so I'd be happy to see him transfer.
why is aozora saying that he rented/bought a new pratice venue and that he will improve player treatment from now on (giving everyone free notebooks etc) when the team is disbanding ?
When I heard that ZeNEX might disband, I thought for sure IM would purse the shit out of Puzzle, considering how they probably have the weakest protoss lineup in korea in and could definitly use help there.
Slayers seems to be in a quest for world domination lol
It's been clarified in the CoCa thread as well as this one, but since people are still mentioning it as if it were fact I feel it almost belongs in the OP:
FXO admitted that the comment about Zenex disbanding was trolling, and they are, in fact, until further notice, not disbanding. :0
On August 20 2011 21:28 Fermats_last wrote: I would rather ZeNEX was disbanding than all of it's top players being taken off the team. Fucking hell, I could deal with Coca leaving but not Puzzle as well. Favourite team seems to be dieing, Happy for Puzzle and Coca obviously but both of them? in a week? fuck.
If they Disband I really hope somone picks up cOre, Line, Naya, Kyrix etc. I hate this week haha
On August 20 2011 21:26 NuclearJudas wrote: Since ZENEX seems to be disbanding, this isn't all to surprising. I like Puzzle and Slayers, so I'd be happy to see him transfer.
why is aozora saying that he rented/bought a new pratice venue and that he will improve player treatment from now on (giving everyone free notebooks etc) when the team is disbanding ?
Who is Aozora and where does he say this haha, I would be happy if something good was happening for the rest of them <3
On August 20 2011 19:31 Killmouse wrote: i have heard that the zenex team is disbanding, mayb thats why the zenex players are joining new teams?
I thought FXOBoss was joking
FXOBoss also said he thought EG were getting a new protoss either Huk or Sase in that hype thread. So maybe he knows something we don't
no man he got a warning and even laught and sayed how can anyone not understand that he was trolling xD
boss boss what did you do xD the guys here not read all so perhaps edit your 1st post in coca tread so no one fall anymore here xD
I don't think anyone thinks ZeNEX are disbanding because of what Boss said anymore, It's more that if Coca + Puzzle are leaving for slayers it sparks speculation on what is happenign with the rest of the team
Holy shit, SlayerS will be the strongest team for sure if that happened. Puzzle is an amazing Toss and they are really short on Protoss players. Looks like the evidence points in that direction.
On August 20 2011 19:31 Killmouse wrote: i have heard that the zenex team is disbanding, mayb thats why the zenex players are joining new teams?
I thought FXOBoss was joking
FXOBoss also said he thought EG were getting a new protoss either Huk or Sase in that hype thread. So maybe he knows something we don't
no man he got a warning and even laught and sayed how can anyone not understand that he was trolling xD
boss boss what did you do xD the guys here not read all so perhaps edit your 1st post in coca tread so no one fall anymore here xD
I don't think anyone thinks ZeNEX are disbanding because of what Boss said anymore, It's more that if Coca + Puzzle are leaving for slayers it sparks speculation on what is happenign with the rest of the team
Sir, read the comments in both this thread and the CoCa thread regarding Zenex disbanding. A number of people are citing it like fact, and its very wrong :D Hence why CoR and myself are making mention that it was clarified as pure trolling >:3
A point to note: on the Playhem page SlayerS_Puzzle is stated to be GM Rank 35, server unspecified (at time of registration, most likely). As of this writing, NEXPuzzle on KR/TW is GM Rank 36. I fear the world is about to end.
i have my doubts that puzzle would leave zenex on short notice like that, he is the team captain but maybe.. anything is possible, puzzle is a boss either way and ill always be a fan =D
may love him even more if he was on my fav team that's not TL though =D
I almost feel strange for suggesting this (since I actually am rather hoping he is in fact joining), but the possibility exists that puzzle could also be the one trolling. Changing his handle as a way to criticize CoCa joining, but that just seems so disrespectful to SlayerS and Puzzle seems like a well mannered guy. Honestly I think the best thing to do is wait for an announcement and just see what happens then.
ZeNex will just CRUMBLE completely if that happens. I'm a Slayers fan but I do find this rumor pretty unfortunate if proven to be true. More teams are always good for the scene.
On August 20 2011 22:10 Oktyabr wrote: ZeNex will just CRUMBLE completely if that happens. I'm a Slayers fan but I do find this rumor pretty unfortunate if proven to be true. More teams are always good for the scene.
zenex has a lot of great players they will not crumble just because a few players leave
Hmmm byun says in interviews that he trains with slayers members often, I wonder if it's a mass exodus to slayers from zenex. Losing puzzle wouldn't kill zenex anyways they weren't like prae where they had nightend, thorzain and that's it there's still line, kyrix, core and hack at least even if slayers decided they just need a few thousand more terrans and decide to take byun.
Hypothetically, if players like CoCa and Puzzle are the ones who sought out SlayerS as a new team, would there be as much drama?
Reading the thread/announcement from SlayerS about Coca, I'm not entirely certain they propositioned him (that is to say that SlayerS sought out CoCa) - it is never explicitly stated in either the Facebook announcement, or the TL article.
Any thoughts on the proposed question above? I suspect that regardless of how "properly" the transfer was handled (CoCa's was deemed legitimate protocol by all parties involved in the end, save for poor communication in Zenex) that there would be some form of unnecessary communal outcry (fanboys, etc.?).
On August 20 2011 22:10 Oktyabr wrote: ZeNex will just CRUMBLE completely if that happens. I'm a Slayers fan but I do find this rumor pretty unfortunate if proven to be true. More teams are always good for the scene.
zenex has a lot of great players they will not crumble just because a few players leave
Uh. That means they have lost 2 code S players and now that kyrix and byun are in up down if they go to code a then that is like 3 months of effort and multiple code A victories wiped in the middle of the season. I can see why the manager/owner would be pissed if that was the case.
Whatever happened to the beginning of slayers saying they werent interested in poaching talent from other teams and had a huge trial of masters/diamond players? OGS still does this and i dont think the talent pool of kr ladder has been milked dry yet either. Im not saying that players shouldnt be traded but they should seriously consider only doing this in the offseason or if they must do it midseason at least have it in writing with all parties being happy otherwise it just makes the whole scene look bad. Tandongho = good! Everybody wins, coca = what?, puzzle = AGAIN ??
I am going to be so sad if next season there are only 10/11 teams competing in GSTL and Zenex gets cut because they dont have enough GSL players to compete.
On August 20 2011 22:10 Oktyabr wrote: ZeNex will just CRUMBLE completely if that happens. I'm a Slayers fan but I do find this rumor pretty unfortunate if proven to be true. More teams are always good for the scene.
zenex has a lot of great players they will not crumble just because a few players leave
Uh. That means they have lost 2 code S players and now that kyrix and byun are in up down if they go to code a then that is like 3 months of effort and multiple code A victories wiped in the middle of the season. I can see why the manager/owner would be pissed if that was the case.
Whatever happened to the beginning of slayers saying they werent interested in poaching talent from other teams and had a huge trial of masters/diamond players? OGS still does this and i dont think the talent pool of kr ladder has been milked dry yet either. Im not saying that players shouldnt be traded but they should seriously consider only doing this in the offseason or if they must do it midseason at least have it in writing with all parties being happy otherwise it just makes the whole scene look bad. Tandongho = good! Everybody wins, coca = what?, puzzle = AGAIN ??
I am going to be so sad if next season there are only 10/11 teams competing in GSTL and Zenex gets cut because they dont have enough GSL players to compete.
Again, going back to my prior post and question - is it not entirely possible that Puzzle/CoCa (assuming puzzle is leaving) that they were the ones who propositioned SlayerS? CoCa is joining for utility, but could it be possible for the players to leave to greener pastures? SlayerS is an excellent training environment with great sponsorship, and we also dont know how happy CoCa/Puzzle were in Zenex (again, assuming Puzzle's transfer) We cant necessarily incriminate SlayerS with "poaching" without knowing the situation of the players from Zenex either. Furthermore, the players themselves may be leaving for greener pastures. Neither assumption/proposition is any less valid than attempting to incriminate SlayerS. Frankly, I'm inclined to view this in a way which exonerates SlayerS from any such notions, not that I care if they "poached" or not. But for the sake of arguement, lets consider all the possibilities accordingly.
Edit: forgot a sentence regarding potential player dissatisfaction in Zenex.
On August 20 2011 21:54 Bagi wrote: If this is true, Slayers will be ridiculously stacked. How can they even afford to have so many players?
Boxer got big time sponsering to create a team, his name goes a long way.
How awesome would it be if Boxer's team and Yellows team (when he gets one) would become the top teams of Korea. It's their rivalry renewed but as coaches rather than players.
On August 20 2011 22:41 OnFiRe888 wrote: this is quite weird, correct me if i'm wrong but i think the person who named themself "slayerspuzzle" isn't on the list of players anymore
Yeah, actually that is pretty strange. Just a moment ago someone named "slayerspuzzle" with a rank35 GM rating was listed. This individual is no longer on the list, furthermore, no one with the handle of "puzzle" is visible on the list.
BoxeR is rebuilding the Evil Empire in Starcraft2. MMA=Fantasy Alicia=BeSt Ryung=sSAK soO=Coca Puzzle=Bisu Still we need hyuk and s2 to be a perfect evil empire.
On August 20 2011 22:56 Severus_ wrote: BoxeR is rebuilding the Evil Empire in Starcraft2. MMA=Fantasy Alicia=BeSt Ryung=sSAK soO=Coca Puzzle=Bisu Still we need hyuk and s2 to be a perfect evil empire.
Whatever the situation is, I wish all the best for the Zenex team and its players. It would be beautiful if Starcraft 2 could become a huge mainstream sport yet stay honorable and respectful in sportsmanship and business practice.
Edit: Please dont turn this into an EG vs SlayerS 'ethics' thread T____T It would be good if the drama in SC2 could be all good news and fun discussion.
a) Milkis has a freaking sweet new icon. b) Milkis, I don't think you should've said that this situation is very different from what EG does without tweeting, emailing, and phoning Alex Garfield for the other side of the story.
Even if it was poaching (assuming no legal contracts were broken), I don't really see whats wrong with it. In all other sports players move around all the time. Some people stay with the same team forever, some move around.
Sucks for fans but its the reality of the situation once money and careers are involved.
Gooooo puzzle, SlayerS becoming so wellroundedly beastly (I know its not a real word, I don't care!)
On August 20 2011 22:54 Milkis wrote: Hmmm, I wouldn't call SlayerS the EG of Korea. The Coca + Puzzle situation is quite different after all :p
I agree 100%.
Furthermore, relating my questions from before - to those who are immediately jumping the gun and just straight up calling SlayerS the EG of korea or are immediately assuming/expecting incoming drama while trying to criticize such 'drama': could it be possible that such individuals are actually hoping for drama? Could you possibly be misinformed or misreading the situation? Or even trying to have your cake (drama free starcraft) and eat it too (enjoying drama). :o
Also, @Tristran/paradox - those are awesome posts. You are gentlemen, scholars, and nerd ballers. :3
Woobsauce. You sir have an excellent name and you are also a fine gentleman and scholar. Of course not forgetting, the most important thing one can be in this day and age... a nerd baller!
The community is such a big part of E-Sports and we should all work hard to remove our internet-troll caps and immaturity wigs born of anonymity from the internet to help promote and improve the glorious form of entertainment that is still only a child in this large and scary world. Starcraft 2 FIGHTING!
I don't pay too much attention to the Korean pro scene mainly because I don't want to pay for Gomtv but does Slayers have any players that aren't terran?
On August 20 2011 23:21 JMC4 wrote: I don't pay too much attention to the Korean pro scene mainly because I don't want to pay for Gomtv but does Slayers have any players that aren't terran?
SlayerS has a lot of very talented, well known non-terrans.
To say you are missing out on truly excellent starcraft would be a sad understatement. You would be doing yourself a tremendous favor to watch some more gomtv matches
I don't see this as some kind of eSports drama. We still don't know whether it's true or not Puzzle going to SlayerS. If it's true, there is nothing wrong with it since player transferring is normal IF the procedure taken in the process of transferring of player is agreed by both side of the teams and the player himself/herself.
On August 20 2011 23:21 JMC4 wrote: I don't pay too much attention to the Korean pro scene mainly because I don't want to pay for Gomtv but does Slayers have any players that aren't terran?
You know, its quite a shame that after Milkis, Unnamezz, Tristran, and paradox (to name a few on this page alone) give reasonable, honest, level headed, and well thought out responses to help shed light on this topic/situation, and diffuse the chances of mindless/uninformed posting. To then immediately continue getting post's like "kakaman's."
On August 20 2011 23:33 woobsauce wrote: You know, its quite a shame that after Milkis, Unnamezz, Tristran, and paradox (to name a few) give reasonable, honest, level headed, and well thought out responses to help shed light on this topic/situation, and diffuse the chances of mindless posting. To then immediately continue getting post's like "kakaman's."
I don't know if it was that different, didn't Jessica get in a flamewar with the owner of Zenex? Sounds pretty similar to me.
One of the reasons I've always loved SlayerS so much was because I watched them grow from a few nobodies in code A. Hopefully they don't pull any more players and we can watch the young talent like Frozen, Min and Brown climb their way up.
On August 20 2011 23:33 woobsauce wrote: You know, its quite a shame that after Milkis, Unnamezz, Tristran, and paradox (to name a few) give reasonable, honest, level headed, and well thought out responses to help shed light on this topic/situation, and diffuse the chances of mindless posting. To then immediately continue getting post's like "kakaman's."
I don't know if it was that different, didn't Jessica get in a flamewar with the owner of Zenex? Sounds pretty similar to me.
Hm, have you read the CoCa thread and the tweets between Jessica/Zenex owner? I don't think its very similar to EG's situation with Puma at all. Especially after reading the entirety of those threads. But to take a step back, I do apologize for the post criticism, but I still think the comparison is pretty much impossible to connect at this point in time. It also feels like after so many people have shed light on the situation in both CoCa's situation and Puma's that the comparison (not just yours) feels sadly uninformed
Edit: Hell, even my own opinions are possibly uniformed due to the fact that not 100% of the information is given light from the background on account of privacy in discussion between the parties and the possible loss of meaning in translation. The point being that working with what information we have, such a connection is virtually nonexistent. :O
But @OP, that's not a smurf... it's just a fake name; smurfing is when you are using an account that indicates a skill that is lower than your real skill
oh dream come true, boxer team is my favorite since BW days, and as I play toss, Puzzle is my most favorite upcoming toss, after MC. If it's true then, Slayers will have a very depth line up now.
People who won Code A like Bomber, Losira, and Puzzle are freaking good, these 3 are like the little giants after MVP, Nestea, MC
On August 21 2011 00:28 mprs wrote: That leaves ZeNex with Line and Byun. :S
Still though, Coca and Puzzle do add a shit ton of race depth to SlayerS. Before, it was a bunch of sick Terrans and Alicia.
I feel that assuming 100% certainty of this transfer is a huge mistake. Especially given that the player has been removed from the signup list (for reasons unknown) and the fact that the title of this thread includes the caveat "rumor" in it.
On August 21 2011 00:28 mprs wrote: That leaves ZeNex with Line and Byun. :S
Still though, Coca and Puzzle do add a shit ton of race depth to SlayerS. Before, it was a bunch of sick Terrans and Alicia.
I feel that assuming 100% certainty of this transfer is a huge mistake. Especially given that the player has been removed from the signup list (for reasons unknown) and the fact that the title of this thread includes the caveat "rumor" in it.
On August 20 2011 23:33 woobsauce wrote: You know, its quite a shame that after Milkis, Unnamezz, Tristran, and paradox (to name a few) give reasonable, honest, level headed, and well thought out responses to help shed light on this topic/situation, and diffuse the chances of mindless posting. To then immediately continue getting post's like "kakaman's."
I don't know if it was that different, didn't Jessica get in a flamewar with the owner of Zenex? Sounds pretty similar to me.
Hm, have you read the CoCa thread and the tweets between Jessica/Zenex owner? I don't think its very similar to EG's situation with Puma at all. Especially after reading the entirety of those threads. But to take a step back, I do apologize for the post criticism, but I still think the comparison is pretty much impossible to connect at this point in time. It also feels like after so many people have shed light on the situation in both CoCa's situation and Puma's that the comparison (not just yours) feels sadly uninformed
Edit: Hell, even my own opinions are possibly uniformed due to the fact that not 100% of the information is given light from the background on account of privacy in discussion between the parties and the possible loss of meaning in translation. The point being that working with what information we have, such a connection is virtually nonexistent. :O
I respect your opinion, I know having these types of arguments on all the transfer threads on TL is getting tiresome, but I had to respond due to the hypocrisy of the threads. The CoCa thread was exactly the same situation as the EG-Puma thread. EG-Puma was a he said/she said thread until AG appeared on State of the Game to explain his side of the story, Coach Lee added his, and we as a community pieced it together. Without those steps, it was just EG fanboys vs. EG haters going at it in the threads. When the CoCa thread popped up, it was overwhelmingly positive due to the stature Slayers has with this community, but the situation was pretty much the same, with no corroboration anywhere. We can make better judgements when more information comes out, but my point is the starting point of both transfers remained murky at best, it was just the community rallied against one team and cheered for the other.
On August 20 2011 23:33 woobsauce wrote: You know, its quite a shame that after Milkis, Unnamezz, Tristran, and paradox (to name a few) give reasonable, honest, level headed, and well thought out responses to help shed light on this topic/situation, and diffuse the chances of mindless posting. To then immediately continue getting post's like "kakaman's."
I don't know if it was that different, didn't Jessica get in a flamewar with the owner of Zenex? Sounds pretty similar to me.
Hm, have you read the CoCa thread and the tweets between Jessica/Zenex owner? I don't think its very similar to EG's situation with Puma at all. Especially after reading the entirety of those threads. But to take a step back, I do apologize for the post criticism, but I still think the comparison is pretty much impossible to connect at this point in time. It also feels like after so many people have shed light on the situation in both CoCa's situation and Puma's that the comparison (not just yours) feels sadly uninformed
Edit: Hell, even my own opinions are possibly uniformed due to the fact that not 100% of the information is given light from the background on account of privacy in discussion between the parties and the possible loss of meaning in translation. The point being that working with what information we have, such a connection is virtually nonexistent. :O
I respect your opinion, I know having these types of arguments on all the transfer threads on TL is getting tiresome, but I had to respond due to the hypocrisy of the threads. The CoCa thread was exactly the same situation as the EG-Puma thread. EG-Puma was a he said/she said thread until AG appeared on State of the Game to explain his side of the story, Coach Lee added his, and we as a community pieced it together. Without those steps, it was just EG fanboys vs. EG haters going at it in the threads. When the CoCa thread popped up, it was overwhelmingly positive due to the stature Slayers has with this community, but the situation was pretty much the same, with no corroboration anywhere. We can make better judgements when more information comes out, but my point is the starting point of both transfers remained murky at best, it was just the community rallied against one team and cheered for the other.
I agree that hypocrisy to an extent exists, but I also think that another part which hasn't been mentioned as was in the CoCa thread is the difference in reputation (not just community fandom).
EG as a corporation has a reputation of doing shadier/frowned upon deals with poaching players both in and outside of sc2, while SlayerS (both the players and the owners), until further notice, has a history of legitimacy and respect. I think taking this into account is indeed important because that either fuels or dampens people's willingness or lack thererof to respond in ways both positive and negative.
I understand that the communities response may seem hypocritical, but it doesn't come from nowhere. The very fact that both situations seem murky or taken care of behind closed doors and may appear vague only makes the strength of the reputations all the more valuable when coming to fueling initial (albeit, uninformed) reactions. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but it is indeed a very noticeable trend.
Unfortunately, such reputations do indeed tend to steer people toward certain bias, but an equally large problem is people just not being well informed. Furthermore, many people don't even intake the little information given. They don't read threads, the OP, or in today's case: the title ["rumor"]. Other obvious proof being that people still think Zenex is disbanding (lol). What's worse, people doing themselves and the rest of the community a disservice by posting ill informed opinions. That is to say, referring to my prior post - we in the non-korean/starcraft 2 corporate information loop have limited information access as is. To form an opinion/judgements without even doing ourselves the favor of fully absorbing every modicum of information possible is damaging and a bit foolish. Equally foolish is choosing to condemn, criticize, and crucify without first hearing the entirety of the story of the parties involved.
As an aside, I can extrapolate that last statement to so much of the "drama" around SlayerS_Jessica.
Tl;Dr - we as a community should probably wait for more information before casting final judgements/accepting any information as given fact.
If slayers did do this, id be pretty sad. I mean anyone can just recruit players that are already fairly popular. I like watching teams grow and emerge into the scene starting as a nobody. Like how MMA or alicia made their debut and made slayers popular.
Does SlayerS pay its players? I know ZeNEX doesn't, and I'm under the impression that SlayerS doesn't as well and merely attracts players by its success and practice regime. Would be happy if anyone would tell me.
Anyways, at this rate, ZeNEX and SlayerS should just merge if this is true, though with the recent drama between Jessica and the ZeNEX owner, I doubt that'd happen.
On August 20 2011 23:36 Greggle wrote: One of the reasons I've always loved SlayerS so much was because I watched them grow from a few nobodies in code A. Hopefully they don't pull any more players and we can watch the young talent like Frozen, Min and Brown climb their way up.
These having good established players and having good up and coming players are not mutually exclusive situations. You can still watch the young talent climb their way up, while watching the established talent wreck some faces in Code S
On August 20 2011 23:36 Greggle wrote: One of the reasons I've always loved SlayerS so much was because I watched them grow from a few nobodies in code A. Hopefully they don't pull any more players and we can watch the young talent like Frozen, Min and Brown climb their way up.
These having good established players and having good up and coming players are not mutually exclusive situations. You can still watch the young talent climb their way up, while watching the established talent wreck some faces in Code S
This post is awesome, and you are awesome.
There is certainly no mutual exclusivity here, and it alludes to something I mentioned earlier in this thread regarding the fact that having a large number of talented players on a single roster only makes the fruits of their practice labor only the more sweet. Thus a basis for benefiting both the players, and the spectators ;3
On August 20 2011 19:47 OnFiRe888 wrote: if the zenex team disbands what happens to byun, byun is amazingly good and i'm sure slayers won't want more terran, but more importantly, what happens to the puppy?!?! PS: i'm well aware that zenex team disbanding was just a troll, but if puzzle leaves zenex it might actually happen
*sigh* And to think Slayers used to be a team you could cheer for. I suppose it was inevitable that Slayers would become the SC2 version of SKT. Hopefully their fate will be more like KT: forever losing despite all the big names they got from other teams, and only winning when their homegrown players stepped it up.
I just talked to Puzzle. he doesn't want me to post what was said, but just wait it out. It's disappointing to see a state where announcements are always leaked.
On August 21 2011 03:04 Keone wrote: This is getting kinda ridiculous... players leaving teams so often, its gotta be bad for morale
We're in this phase in SC2 esports right now. You will see alot more of this aslong as people get more money and want to spend more money on the players. This is a good thing, but it wont be like this forever. Eventually the market will even out and you'll see a more steady growth to both the sport, and the amount of money that is spent on players/tournaments/teams etc.
SC2 is young, and needs to flap with its wings for a while longer.
Good for Slayers. Their Protoss line has been lacking. Its kind of funny that the teams that are most relaxed about practice are losing their players left and right.
that's how Esport roll Strong team with sponsors survive, weak team will be Eaten by them and end up disband, then reform new team, get stronger again and so on...
Would be a good pickup for SlayerS, they have alot of great terrans and with CoCa a new good zerg, but no really good Protoss since Alicia is in a hard slump.
Absolutely nothing wrong with CoCa and Puzzle leaving for SlayerS (assuming there's no contract), but considering this seems similar to the PuMa incident I think people need to take the same standpoint with EG (not just absolve SlayerS because they're a much more popular and well-liked team, which admittedly they are).
Also SlayerS is acting very similar to EG, they have some homegrown talent but outside of MMA none of them have been top-tier (Alicia is close), you can't argue that SlayerS has really developed their own talent when three of their best players (CoCa, Taeja, and Puzzle) are poached from other squads (or one other squad lol). Very similar to EG (which hasn't really developed any talent lol, maybe except Axslav and Idra-ishish)
if it were true slayers would probably have one of the deepest rosters in korea already having a very strong terran line up they picked up coca and now have decent zerg lineup and with puzzle they would have some very strong protoss players on there side aswell
On August 21 2011 03:55 red4ce wrote: *sigh* And to think Slayers used to be a team you could cheer for. I suppose it was inevitable that Slayers would become the SC2 version of SKT. Hopefully their fate will be more like KT: forever losing despite all the big names they got from other teams, and only winning when their homegrown players stepped it up.
They have the money, why shouldn't they do something like this? It's good for their team, especially since they haven't really developed strong non-Terran talent at all (Alicia semi-excluded, but losing to ToD at MLG isn't exactly awe-inspiring, and results have been somewhat disappointing)
Though I'll commend you for sticking to your morals (although I disagree with your standards), too many people are criticizing EG while praising SlayerS for doing the same thing. Personally I think both should be looked upon for improving the scene, but at least you're consistent in your criticism.
Before someone comes in and says SlayerS has a lot more home-grown talent than EG... really? They have "more", but they also have a crapload more players (not including those who have flamed out and aren't on the team anymore)... and if you look... EG has more money than foreign teams, but isn't miles ahead (though it is a noticeable difference when you compare EG to something like Liquid, but maybe not so much when you compare to Dignitas)... SlayerS is miles ahead of pretty much every other Korean team in terms of sponsorship (except potentially IM) so it's not even a contest.
On August 21 2011 04:20 FairForever wrote: Absolutely nothing wrong with CoCa and Puzzle leaving for SlayerS (assuming there's no contract), but considering this seems similar to the PuMa incident I think people need to take the same standpoint with EG (not just absolve SlayerS because they're a much more popular and well-liked team, which admittedly they are).
Also SlayerS is acting very similar to EG, they have some homegrown talent but outside of MMA none of them have been top-tier (Alicia is close), you can't argue that SlayerS has really developed their own talent when three of their best players (CoCa, Taeja, and Puzzle) are poached from other squads (or one other squad lol). Very similar to EG (which hasn't really developed any talent lol, maybe except Axslav and Idra-ishish)
What did TaeJa do before joining SlayerS? He only made it into one GSL before joining.
MMA, Ryung, Alicia, Min and GanZi were all no-names in Starcraft 2 before becoming a part of SlayerS, where they are now all really strong and competitive players.
On August 20 2011 20:40 antilyon wrote: Slayers, aka Asian EG.
Will only two good players (Huk and Puma). EG doesn't even deserve to carry Slayers' shoes.
You aren't rekrul, you're not allowed to say IdrA is bad.
LOL I love when people spout this bs... just because Idra is sort of an ass ("sort of" being a very nice way to put it) doesn't mean he isn't a good player. If he's not good then how many "good" players does TL have? MAYBE two? (If you argue that both Ret and Sheth are better than Idra, which I wouldn't agree with) fnatic would have one (Sen), dignitas would have maybe one (Naniwa), etc. etc.
Idra's a damn good player, he's just so bm and easy to hate (completely his fault). I hate his attitude but I love watching his play and casting.
Also sure, EG only has 3 players, but EG's roster is a lot smaller than SlayerS. And they are in different scenes (one could argue EG is a dominant force, after the acquisition of HuK, in the foreign scene). I'd say EG and mousesports compete for the best team in the West... similarly, with these acquisitions, you have to say that SlayerS is, at least on an individual basis, one of the two best Korean teams (maybe second after Incredible Miracle).
On August 21 2011 04:20 FairForever wrote: Also SlayerS is acting very similar to EG, they have some homegrown talent but outside of MMA none of them have been top-tier (Alicia is close), you can't argue that SlayerS has really developed their own talent when three of their best players (CoCa, Taeja, and Puzzle) are poached from other squads (or one other squad lol). Very similar to EG (which hasn't really developed any talent lol, maybe except Axslav and Idra-ishish)
You discount how good Ganzi and Ryung are as well. Alicia has been Code S for a while, and has had a bad GSL this time. MMA is pretty darned good and Boxer is no slouch when he is in tip-top shape. Slayers produces Terrans in abudance.
On August 21 2011 04:20 FairForever wrote: Absolutely nothing wrong with CoCa and Puzzle leaving for SlayerS (assuming there's no contract), but considering this seems similar to the PuMa incident I think people need to take the same standpoint with EG (not just absolve SlayerS because they're a much more popular and well-liked team, which admittedly they are).
Also SlayerS is acting very similar to EG, they have some homegrown talent but outside of MMA none of them have been top-tier (Alicia is close), you can't argue that SlayerS has really developed their own talent when three of their best players (CoCa, Taeja, and Puzzle) are poached from other squads (or one other squad lol). Very similar to EG (which hasn't really developed any talent lol, maybe except Axslav and Idra-ishish)
I dont know if you are being intentionally discreet or not, but Slayers has ryung, ganzi and mma, so calling puzzle, taeja and coca the 3 best players is a pretty big stretch.
And also, although the principles are the same with huk and eg, its not the same magnitude at all and youve got to accept the fact that less people are going to be talking about this and holding slayers to the same standard.
On August 20 2011 20:40 antilyon wrote: Slayers, aka Asian EG.
Will only two good players (Huk and Puma). EG doesn't even deserve to carry Slayers' shoes.
You aren't rekrul, you're not allowed to say IdrA is bad.
LOL I love when people spout this bs... just because Idra is sort of an ass ("sort of" being a very nice way to put it) doesn't mean he isn't a good player. If he's not good then how many "good" players does TL have? MAYBE two? (If you argue that both Ret and Sheth are better than Idra, which I wouldn't agree with) fnatic would have one (Sen), dignitas would have maybe one (Naniwa), etc. etc.
Idra's a damn good player, he's just so bm and easy to hate (completely his fault). I hate his attitude but I love watching his play and casting.
Also sure, EG only has 3 players, but EG's roster is a lot smaller than SlayerS. And they are in different scenes (one could argue EG is a dominant force, after the acquisition of HuK, in the foreign scene). I'd say EG and mousesports compete for the best team in the West... similarly, with these acquisitions, you have to say that SlayerS is, at least on an individual basis, one of the two best Korean teams (maybe second after Incredible Miracle).
1. Ret and Sheth beat Idra on numerous occassions and have consistent results. 2. Sen isn't on Fnatic Anymore. 3. Dignitas has Naniwa, and Select, among other good players such as Tan and soon to be another Korean perhaps. 4. SlayerS is ranked 7 in winnings.
This is not to say that Eg is bad by any means, In fact i'd say they are a Top 3 Foreign Team, maybe 1-2 even. But, you can't spew incorrect facts, and although some are opinions, I think most people would disagree with them.
On August 21 2011 04:20 FairForever wrote: Also SlayerS is acting very similar to EG, they have some homegrown talent but outside of MMA none of them have been top-tier (Alicia is close), you can't argue that SlayerS has really developed their own talent when three of their best players (CoCa, Taeja, and Puzzle) are poached from other squads (or one other squad lol). Very similar to EG (which hasn't really developed any talent lol, maybe except Axslav and Idra-ishish)
You discount how good Ganzi and Ryung are as well. Alicia has been Code S for a while, and has had a bad GSL this time. MMA is pretty darned good and Boxer is no slouch when he is in tip-top shape. Slayers produces Terrans in abudance.
And to be honest, Slayers offers a lot for its players. It's not just that they are buying players. They see potential in players and help them grow further. That's the essential difference between Slayers and EG. Boxer oversees the team and being a former pro and father of ESPORTS, he understands his teammates. Hell, he lives with Slayers. EG management is far less familiar with SC2 the game itself and tbh, cannot offer similar gaming environments (other than money) that Slayers offers. So you can't compare the two because it's night and day. Sure, both are well sponsored, but it's much more than just money. Besides, I think it's safe to say that Boxer (who has founded/coached/mentored some of the greatest BW players of all time and one-handedly created a competitve SC2 team) > Alex Garfield.
Man ZeNEX has been on the upswing recently with the emergence of Puzzle an Byun in Code S. Hopefully it doesn't happen. I don't like when up and coming teams lose their best players. /:
On August 20 2011 20:40 antilyon wrote: Slayers, aka Asian EG.
Will only two good players (Huk and Puma). EG doesn't even deserve to carry Slayers' shoes.
You aren't rekrul, you're not allowed to say IdrA is bad.
LOL I love when people spout this bs... just because Idra is sort of an ass ("sort of" being a very nice way to put it) doesn't mean he isn't a good player. If he's not good then how many "good" players does TL have? MAYBE two? (If you argue that both Ret and Sheth are better than Idra, which I wouldn't agree with) fnatic would have one (Sen), dignitas would have maybe one (Naniwa), etc. etc.
Idra's a damn good player, he's just so bm and easy to hate (completely his fault). I hate his attitude but I love watching his play and casting.
Also sure, EG only has 3 players, but EG's roster is a lot smaller than SlayerS. And they are in different scenes (one could argue EG is a dominant force, after the acquisition of HuK, in the foreign scene). I'd say EG and mousesports compete for the best team in the West... similarly, with these acquisitions, you have to say that SlayerS is, at least on an individual basis, one of the two best Korean teams (maybe second after Incredible Miracle).
1. Ret and Sheth beat Idra on numerous occassions and have consistent results. 2. Sen isn't on Fnatic Anymore. 3. Dignitas has Naniwa, and Select, among other good players such as Tan and soon to be another Korean perhaps. 4. SlayerS is ranked 7 in winnings.
This is not to say that Eg is bad by any means, In fact i'd say they are a Top 3 Foreign Team, maybe 1-2 even. But, you can't spew incorrect facts, and although some are opinions, I think most people would disagree with them.
Pretty much this. Ret and Sheth have had Idra's number recently, and HerO is an absolute monster. Even back when IdrA was at his prime in Korea (prime meaning better than everyone else), Jinro had him beat in series and games won in two Code S meetings and the Clash of the Titans. Incontrol gave FXO shit saying they were no where near the best foreigner team, and EG was. But without PuMa and HuK, they only have IdrA, who has never, at any point (aside from perhaps the end of the beta?), the best foreigner in the world (objectively). His stay in Korea was overshadowed by Jinro, and now he is being over shadowed by plenty of players.
Don't get me wrong, he is realllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly good. At one point, he was top 3 zergs in the world including Korea. Now, he is competitive with all the top players, but he doesn't have any form of dominion on any "best" category. Perhaps "Best Zerg in the Arizona EG house."
Puzzle will gain access to so many good Terrans if this turns out to be true, and PvP with Alicia. So sick!
On August 21 2011 04:20 FairForever wrote: Also SlayerS is acting very similar to EG, they have some homegrown talent but outside of MMA none of them have been top-tier (Alicia is close), you can't argue that SlayerS has really developed their own talent when three of their best players (CoCa, Taeja, and Puzzle) are poached from other squads (or one other squad lol). Very similar to EG (which hasn't really developed any talent lol, maybe except Axslav and Idra-ishish)
You discount how good Ganzi and Ryung are as well. Alicia has been Code S for a while, and has had a bad GSL this time. MMA is pretty darned good and Boxer is no slouch when he is in tip-top shape. Slayers produces Terrans in abudance.
On August 21 2011 04:20 FairForever wrote: Absolutely nothing wrong with CoCa and Puzzle leaving for SlayerS (assuming there's no contract), but considering this seems similar to the PuMa incident I think people need to take the same standpoint with EG (not just absolve SlayerS because they're a much more popular and well-liked team, which admittedly they are).
Also SlayerS is acting very similar to EG, they have some homegrown talent but outside of MMA none of them have been top-tier (Alicia is close), you can't argue that SlayerS has really developed their own talent when three of their best players (CoCa, Taeja, and Puzzle) are poached from other squads (or one other squad lol). Very similar to EG (which hasn't really developed any talent lol, maybe except Axslav and Idra-ishish)
What did TaeJa do before joining SlayerS? He only made it into one GSL before joining.
MMA, Ryung, Alicia, Min and GanZi were all no-names in Starcraft 2 before becoming a part of SlayerS, where they are now all really strong and competitive players.
On August 21 2011 04:20 FairForever wrote: Absolutely nothing wrong with CoCa and Puzzle leaving for SlayerS (assuming there's no contract), but considering this seems similar to the PuMa incident I think people need to take the same standpoint with EG (not just absolve SlayerS because they're a much more popular and well-liked team, which admittedly they are).
Also SlayerS is acting very similar to EG, they have some homegrown talent but outside of MMA none of them have been top-tier (Alicia is close), you can't argue that SlayerS has really developed their own talent when three of their best players (CoCa, Taeja, and Puzzle) are poached from other squads (or one other squad lol). Very similar to EG (which hasn't really developed any talent lol, maybe except Axslav and Idra-ishish)
I dont know if you are being intentionally discreet or not, but Slayers has ryung, ganzi and mma, so calling puzzle, taeja and coca the 3 best players is a pretty big stretch.
And also, although the principles are the same with huk and eg, its not the same magnitude at all and youve got to accept the fact that less people are going to be talking about this and holding slayers to the same standard.
Ganzi doesn't count as a homegrown player for Slayers because he was originally on IM. Sure he didn't really accomplish anything back then but considering he was on Woongjin's A team as recently as 2009 he wasn't a complete nobody either.
On August 21 2011 04:20 FairForever wrote: Also SlayerS is acting very similar to EG, they have some homegrown talent but outside of MMA none of them have been top-tier (Alicia is close), you can't argue that SlayerS has really developed their own talent when three of their best players (CoCa, Taeja, and Puzzle) are poached from other squads (or one other squad lol). Very similar to EG (which hasn't really developed any talent lol, maybe except Axslav and Idra-ishish)
You discount how good Ganzi and Ryung are as well. Alicia has been Code S for a while, and has had a bad GSL this time. MMA is pretty darned good and Boxer is no slouch when he is in tip-top shape. Slayers produces Terrans in abudance.
On August 21 2011 04:20 FairForever wrote: Absolutely nothing wrong with CoCa and Puzzle leaving for SlayerS (assuming there's no contract), but considering this seems similar to the PuMa incident I think people need to take the same standpoint with EG (not just absolve SlayerS because they're a much more popular and well-liked team, which admittedly they are).
Also SlayerS is acting very similar to EG, they have some homegrown talent but outside of MMA none of them have been top-tier (Alicia is close), you can't argue that SlayerS has really developed their own talent when three of their best players (CoCa, Taeja, and Puzzle) are poached from other squads (or one other squad lol). Very similar to EG (which hasn't really developed any talent lol, maybe except Axslav and Idra-ishish)
What did TaeJa do before joining SlayerS? He only made it into one GSL before joining.
MMA, Ryung, Alicia, Min and GanZi were all no-names in Starcraft 2 before becoming a part of SlayerS, where they are now all really strong and competitive players.
On August 21 2011 04:20 FairForever wrote: Absolutely nothing wrong with CoCa and Puzzle leaving for SlayerS (assuming there's no contract), but considering this seems similar to the PuMa incident I think people need to take the same standpoint with EG (not just absolve SlayerS because they're a much more popular and well-liked team, which admittedly they are).
Also SlayerS is acting very similar to EG, they have some homegrown talent but outside of MMA none of them have been top-tier (Alicia is close), you can't argue that SlayerS has really developed their own talent when three of their best players (CoCa, Taeja, and Puzzle) are poached from other squads (or one other squad lol). Very similar to EG (which hasn't really developed any talent lol, maybe except Axslav and Idra-ishish)
I dont know if you are being intentionally discreet or not, but Slayers has ryung, ganzi and mma, so calling puzzle, taeja and coca the 3 best players is a pretty big stretch.
And also, although the principles are the same with huk and eg, its not the same magnitude at all and youve got to accept the fact that less people are going to be talking about this and holding slayers to the same standard.
Ganzi doesn't count as a homegrown player for Slayers because he was originally on IM. Sure he didn't really accomplish anything back then but considering he was on Woongjin's A team as recently as 2009 he wasn't a complete nobody either.
well if you count the mental aspect of pro players Ganzi improved hell tone due to Boxer in his interviews he always comment how he gets so much motivated whenever he sees boxer practicing hard and because he gets really depressed when he loses (he was super depressed after MLG too where he got 4th) so being on SlayerS brought the potential of Ganzi that was held back by Ganzi's mentality overall i think Slayers is where any players want to be right now with the sponsors and its excellent training systems and ofc Boxer
Disappointing if its true since Zenex is losing more players but GL to him. I'm sure his skill will further increase with all the gosu terrans at SlayerS
Also SlayerS is acting very similar to EG, they have some homegrown talent but outside of MMA none of them have been top-tier (Alicia is close), you can't argue that SlayerS has really developed their own talent when three of their best players (CoCa, Taeja, and Puzzle) are poached from other squads (or one other squad lol). Very similar to EG (which hasn't really developed any talent lol, maybe except Axslav and Idra-ishish)
So... Great homegrown players: MMA, Ryung, Alicia, Min, Ganzi Great imported players: CoCa, Puzzle (unconfirmed)
No, Taeja wasn't "great", Code A ro16 isn't great, otherwise the entire SlayerS team is great. Obviously just like EG, bad training, just buying the great players. Right?
Team Liquid need to get involved in some shady dealings if they want to stay ahead in the meta-drama-game. I say announce LiquidNesTea and let the internet sort it out.
Also SlayerS is acting very similar to EG, they have some homegrown talent but outside of MMA none of them have been top-tier (Alicia is close), you can't argue that SlayerS has really developed their own talent when three of their best players (CoCa, Taeja, and Puzzle) are poached from other squads (or one other squad lol). Very similar to EG (which hasn't really developed any talent lol, maybe except Axslav and Idra-ishish)
So... Great homegrown players: MMA, Ryung, Alicia, Min, Ganzi Great imported players: CoCa, Puzzle (unconfirmed)
No, Taeja wasn't "great", Code A ro16 isn't great, otherwise the entire SlayerS team is great. Obviously just like EG, bad training, just buying the great players. Right?
Although i agree that SlayerS is not acting similar to EG, regardless of whether that is good or bad, i think it needs to be said that Taeja is actually pretty great, ro4 Code A this season looking really strong.
I think we all also need to just grow up and understand that if these players don't have contracts then there really is malice in recruiting them to a team that can offer them financial sustenance. If we really want ESPORTS then we have to root out the teams that can't support themselves or there players, as cold as that sounds. What is the point of a team that is asking their players to stay based on faith? I don't harbor any ill will towards SlayerS or EG because actions like these make ESPORTS possible, it provides a living for someone to do what they love that they previously were not making.
We really should stop getting in an uproar every time a player switches teams.
Also SlayerS is acting very similar to EG, they have some homegrown talent but outside of MMA none of them have been top-tier (Alicia is close), you can't argue that SlayerS has really developed their own talent when three of their best players (CoCa, Taeja, and Puzzle) are poached from other squads (or one other squad lol). Very similar to EG (which hasn't really developed any talent lol, maybe except Axslav and Idra-ishish)
So... Great homegrown players: MMA, Ryung, Alicia, Min, Ganzi Great imported players: CoCa, Puzzle (unconfirmed)
No, Taeja wasn't "great", Code A ro16 isn't great, otherwise the entire SlayerS team is great. Obviously just like EG, bad training, just buying the great players. Right?
You forgot BoxeR, while he hasn't been the greatest player ever, he certainly is better than most foreigner "A-teamers" and "B-teamers". His MLG performance was spectacular.
That is six players "homegrown". Two imported. While CoCa is a great addition, he is still not much better than most of their T's (if they were to play TvZ). These acquisitions are solely based on their need of Zergs and Protoss.
Also SlayerS is acting very similar to EG, they have some homegrown talent but outside of MMA none of them have been top-tier (Alicia is close), you can't argue that SlayerS has really developed their own talent when three of their best players (CoCa, Taeja, and Puzzle) are poached from other squads (or one other squad lol). Very similar to EG (which hasn't really developed any talent lol, maybe except Axslav and Idra-ishish)
So... Great homegrown players: MMA, Ryung, Alicia, Min, Ganzi Great imported players: CoCa, Puzzle (unconfirmed)
No, Taeja wasn't "great", Code A ro16 isn't great, otherwise the entire SlayerS team is great. Obviously just like EG, bad training, just buying the great players. Right?
Although i agree that SlayerS is not acting similar to EG, regardless of whether that is good or bad, i think it needs to be said that Taeja is actually pretty great, ro4 Code A this season looking really strong.
I think we all also need to just grow up and understand that if these players don't have contracts then there really is malice in recruiting them to a team that can offer them financial sustenance. If we really want ESPORTS then we have to root out the teams that can't support themselves or there players, as cold as that sounds. What is the point of a team that is asking their players to stay based on faith? I don't harbor any ill will towards SlayerS or EG because actions like these make ESPORTS possible, it provides a living for someone to do what they love that they previously were not making.
We really should stop getting in an uproar every time a player switches teams.
I think the key word here is "wasn't" in the sense that most people hadn't really heard of Taeja before SlayerS picked him up and set him loose on his old team. Clearly, he has flourished in the SlayerS house since.
I guess there's not much else to discuss here until we get more information or some sort of official announcement.
On August 20 2011 22:54 Milkis wrote: Hmmm, I wouldn't call SlayerS the EG of Korea. The Coca + Puzzle situation is quite different after all.
Damn, Milkis seriously needs to stop being so biased.
He is of korean descendence.
+1
Trying to make foreign teams look bad without getting both sides.
Trying to make korean teams not look bad(or look good) without getting both sides.
Funny thing is if someone says milkis is biased that person is banned i saw it happen before, so i would be careful about saying it, he has power to ban you when he gets called out.
The comparison of SlayerS to EG is completely ridiculous. SlayerS has 3 of their homegrown players in Code S, and three of them in Code A (BoxeR is out, but he was in Code A this season by qualifying legitimately, so it makes sense to count him). What does EG have?
Incontrol isn't anywhere close to any of those SlayerS players I listed, and I'm not sure where IdrA stands, but I highly doubt he's at the level of any of those SlayerS players I listed either. Maybe BoxeR a while ago, but it seems that BoxeR has improved a ton, so I don't know about that anymore. On homegrown players alone, EG could only dream of being even a fraction of the team that SlayerS is. The difference is that EG felt like a team that didn't have any good players (by good, I mean Korean good, with IdrA being the only player that can hope to come close), so they went and bought some good ones. SlayerS feels like an already extremely powerful team (2 wins in the GSTL, 3 players in Code S (two who advanced from their group 2-0), 2 in the Code A semifinals) adding even more strong players to their roster. The difference is huge. One is a team that is, by international standards, pretty weak. The other is a team that is, by international standards, incredibly strong.
On August 20 2011 22:54 Milkis wrote: Hmmm, I wouldn't call SlayerS the EG of Korea. The Coca + Puzzle situation is quite different after all.
Damn, Milkis seriously needs to stop being so biased.
He is of korean descendence.
+1
Trying to make foreign teams look bad without getting both sides.
Trying to make korean teams not look bad(or look good) without getting both sides.
Funny thing is if someone says milkis is biased that person is banned i saw it happen before, so i would be careful about saying it, he has power to ban you when he gets called out.
-1 for lack of catching sarcasm/joke
Milkis if a freaking hero. Best Korean translator on the scene imo, and all these jokes about him being biased are jokes because he's a freaking TRANSLATOR. The fact that people can even consider him biased is a joke.
On August 20 2011 22:54 Milkis wrote: Hmmm, I wouldn't call SlayerS the EG of Korea. The Coca + Puzzle situation is quite different after all.
Damn, Milkis seriously needs to stop being so biased.
He is of korean descendence.
+1
Trying to make foreign teams look bad without getting both sides.
Trying to make korean teams not look bad(or look good) without getting both sides.
Funny thing is if someone says milkis is biased that person is banned i saw it happen before, so i would be careful about saying it, he has power to ban you when he gets called out.
how do you know his intentions?
without getting both sides
irony all over this post. and how do you even know he doesn't already understand both sides.
and i'm pretty sure you are missing the running joke. milkis is a translator, not a journalist
On August 20 2011 22:54 Milkis wrote: Hmmm, I wouldn't call SlayerS the EG of Korea. The Coca + Puzzle situation is quite different after all.
Damn, Milkis seriously needs to stop being so biased.
He is of korean descendence.
+1
Trying to make foreign teams look bad without getting both sides.
Trying to make korean teams not look bad(or look good) without getting both sides.
Funny thing is if someone says milkis is biased that person is banned i saw it happen before, so i would be careful about saying it, he has power to ban you when he gets called out.
So do I, it's called a report button and probably if I use it you did something stupid. I've never seen someone call out a mod abuse and be right, at best (and this is rare) it was an honest mistake.
I fail to see how this is ANYTHING like the EG situation. Team switching occurs actively which is in itself, completely fine. The problem with the EG incident was the lack of professionalism in how the switch occurred. In this situation, the rumors only say puzzle moved to slayers. There is nothing about how the transition happened (unlike the EG case) and so it may have been handled in a completely different manner. We. Don't. Know. For all we know, Puzzle could've been bought for 10 million USD. Or he could've been stolen. Or Zenex could be disbanding. There is no explanation behind an unsupported rumor...
And player shuffling is a good thing as long as it is done in a professional manner. Players grown in a team without some degree of inter-mixing results in very standardized playstyle with no new input. Adding in new players grown in other teams is an excellent way to introduce new thoughts, approaches and playstyle. This is why even in the Ivy Leagues, it is usually very difficult to find a job at the University you graduated from; it helps the university bring in new thoughts and minds.
On August 21 2011 07:07 HolyArrow wrote: The comparison of SlayerS to EG is completely ridiculous. SlayerS has 3 of their homegrown players in Code S, and three of them in Code A (BoxeR is out, but he was in Code A this season by qualifying legitimately, so it makes sense to count him). What does EG have?
Lol Incontrol, also IdrA was bw player that played in Korea, EG doesn't have to do a thing with him, DeMuslim was also accuired, and look at them now, both doing poorly, they ruined players, ruined...We will see what will happen with Huk and PuMa...
On August 21 2011 07:13 MooMooMugi wrote: Whoever said Taeja is bad is terribly wrong, hes in the semifinals of Code A this season and has TWO All-Kills in the GSTL
Thank you I came here to say that.
I would love to see Puzzle go to Slayers, they really need a strong protoss and Puzzle is an incredible player. gogo puzzle!
On August 21 2011 07:07 HolyArrow wrote: The comparison of SlayerS to EG is completely ridiculous. SlayerS has 3 of their homegrown players in Code S, and three of them in Code A (BoxeR is out, but he was in Code A this season by qualifying legitimately, so it makes sense to count him). What does EG have?
Incontrol isn't anywhere close to any of those SlayerS players I listed, and I'm not sure where IdrA stands, but I highly doubt he's at the level of any of those SlayerS players I listed either. Maybe BoxeR a while ago, but it seems that BoxeR has improved a ton, so I don't know about that anymore. On homegrown players alone, EG could only dream of being even a fraction of the team that SlayerS is. The difference is that EG felt like a team that didn't have any good players (by good, I mean Korean good, with IdrA being the only player that can hope to come close), so they went and bought some good ones. SlayerS feels like an already extremely powerful team (2 wins in the GSTL, 3 players in Code S (two who advanced from their group 2-0), 2 in the Code A semifinals) adding even more strong players to their roster. The difference is huge. One is a team that is, by international standards, pretty weak. The other is a team that is, by international standards, incredibly strong.
I wouldn't count either Idra or Ganzi as homegrown. Ganzi was on IM and Idra was the best non-Korean player in the world when EG acquired him.
And the comparison isn't that SlayerS is EG, but that they are becoming like them, which is certainly the direction all teams are headed towards considering all the good players are already on teams.
Actually i saw this one coming, if true. When i herd that Slayers picked up Coca, i thought at that point i would have also made a lot of since (if not more sense) to pick up another good Protoss. As im actually not aware of Slayers having any good Protoss past Alicia. ( Tiffiany? Brown?)
Even before Coca, they had more Z than P. Golden, Yughio, Min, Cella (kinda).
I guess one more player won't make a big difference, however Slayers is so frickin HUGE right now. How many players do they have on their roster? Im Glad that they are trying to get a more rounded team. Though they just have so many players, its all most too many at this point.
On August 21 2011 07:07 HolyArrow wrote: The comparison of SlayerS to EG is completely ridiculous. SlayerS has 3 of their homegrown players in Code S, and three of them in Code A (BoxeR is out, but he was in Code A this season by qualifying legitimately, so it makes sense to count him). What does EG have?
Lol Incontrol, also IdrA was bw player that played in Korea, EG doesn't have to do a thing with him, DeMuslim was also accuired, and look at them now, both doing poorly, they ruined players, ruined...We will see what will happen with Huk and PuMa...
On August 21 2011 07:07 HolyArrow wrote: The comparison of SlayerS to EG is completely ridiculous. SlayerS has 3 of their homegrown players in Code S, and three of them in Code A (BoxeR is out, but he was in Code A this season by qualifying legitimately, so it makes sense to count him). What does EG have?
Lol Incontrol, also IdrA was bw player that played in Korea, EG doesn't have to do a thing with him, DeMuslim was also accuired, and look at them now, both doing poorly, they ruined players, ruined...We will see what will happen with Huk and PuMa...
man, demuslim broked his arm and recovering like a year from it. EG has nothing to do about it, still they support him for all this time. Also he is really strong now. So don't talk sh!t
On August 21 2011 07:07 HolyArrow wrote: The comparison of SlayerS to EG is completely ridiculous. SlayerS has 3 of their homegrown players in Code S, and three of them in Code A (BoxeR is out, but he was in Code A this season by qualifying legitimately, so it makes sense to count him). What does EG have?
Lol Incontrol, also IdrA was bw player that played in Korea, EG doesn't have to do a thing with him, DeMuslim was also accuired, and look at them now, both doing poorly, they ruined players, ruined...We will see what will happen with Huk and PuMa...
man, demuslim broked his arm and recovering like a year from it. EG has nothing to do about it, still they support him for all this time. Also he is really strong now. So don't talk sh!t
On August 21 2011 07:07 HolyArrow wrote: The comparison of SlayerS to EG is completely ridiculous. SlayerS has 3 of their homegrown players in Code S, and three of them in Code A (BoxeR is out, but he was in Code A this season by qualifying legitimately, so it makes sense to count him). What does EG have?
Incontrol isn't anywhere close to any of those SlayerS players I listed, and I'm not sure where IdrA stands, but I highly doubt he's at the level of any of those SlayerS players I listed either. Maybe BoxeR a while ago, but it seems that BoxeR has improved a ton, so I don't know about that anymore. On homegrown players alone, EG could only dream of being even a fraction of the team that SlayerS is. The difference is that EG felt like a team that didn't have any good players (by good, I mean Korean good, with IdrA being the only player that can hope to come close), so they went and bought some good ones. SlayerS feels like an already extremely powerful team (2 wins in the GSTL, 3 players in Code S (two who advanced from their group 2-0), 2 in the Code A semifinals) adding even more strong players to their roster. The difference is huge. One is a team that is, by international standards, pretty weak. The other is a team that is, by international standards, incredibly strong.
Idra was never close to Boxer's level. Every time before they faced each other. Idra always said he would crush Boxer or Korean, but the results were 2:0 for Boxer every meeting.
On August 21 2011 12:24 ReaperX wrote: Hmm, if Puzzle leaves then ZeNeX disbanding might actually happen. I'm not sure what will happen in the GSTL though.
Here's to hoping it doesn't happen, as ZeNeX has been doing pretty well, but if they did leave the GSTL after this season, that would open up a spot for EG =P
hope puzzle improves fast at slayers, he has so much potential : ) would love to see him being a star. hes already good, but under the guidance of cella/boxer the skys the limit
if ZeNEX dies, GOM probably won't be able to field enough teams for GSTL. They are barely able to with the foreigners making up the the majority of f.united team. ZeNEX had a nice lineup of byun, puzzle, and coca... why slayers have to ruin that
On August 21 2011 15:32 illsick wrote: if ZeNEX dies, GOM probably won't be able to field enough teams for GSTL. They are barely able to with the foreigners making up the the majority of f.united team. ZeNEX had a nice lineup of byun, puzzle, and coca... why slayers have to ruin that
Slayers have a 26 player roster atm, cmon lol
Actually, there are other Korean teams that not many people know. During the Code A qualification, there were a couple interviews with players from those "unknown" teams; and they even have team house and many of their players are on KR GM. One of the players interviewed mentioned that he quit his salary job for full time starcraft training at his team house. Even Wolf said something about those teams during casting.
A few things from me: 1- Now we have the actual reason why Jessica is closing her twitter. 2- EG acquires PuMa and HuK: "EG IS A PIECE OF SHEET !!!!11111", SlayerS acquire CoCa and Puzzle: "They would be sone great addition to the team YAAAAAAAY !!!11111". They essentially did the same thing in an approximately same manner (SlayerS were a little bit ruder than EG but whatever), yet they get very very very different reactions. I don't know which one is true. 3- Good luck to Puzzle and CoCa at SlayerS.
On August 21 2011 14:27 koolaid1990 wrote: I am VERY dissapointed in Slayers. They should create their own baby instead of stealing another's child.
I hate comparisons like this. Stealing someone's child isn't comparable to acquiring a player on another team. Lol I feel like if you need to use an example of something else to get an idea across, it's because the point wasn't very strong to begin with. I imagine you have a much more intelligent point to get across. Slayers as a team is trying to do the best they can. They're out to get sponsorship and make money. It's their job. Furthermore, Coca could not have been acquired without Coca's word on it. If you want to be mad at someone, be mad at Coca. Slayers was just creating more opportunities for Coca. Even then though, it's likely to be a very beneficial experience for Coca, to be on the team that is able to be so innovative and does things like sending many of their players to MLG. Slayers probably has a much smoother path ahead of them too, because they're sort of the team everyone has their eye on, and as such they're capable of getting a lot of sponsorship.
On August 21 2011 16:11 Djagulingu wrote: A few things from me: 1- Now we have the actual reason why Jessica is closing her twitter. 2- EG acquires PuMa and HuK: "EG IS A PIECE OF SHEET !!!!11111", SlayerS acquire CoCa and Puzzle: "They would be sone great addition to the team YAAAAAAAY !!!11111". They essentially did the same thing in an approximately same manner (SlayerS were a little bit ruder than EG but whatever), yet they get very very very different reactions. I don't know which one is true. 3- Good luck to Puzzle and CoCa at SlayerS.
I don't think either EG or Slayers deserves to be given shit about acquiring players. I feel like it's stupid to expect players who aren't under contract to let opportunities pass by just because of a sort of tradition based principle.
Would love to see Puzzle on SlayerS, just makes my favourite team even more likeable Though if he joined NSHoseo, it would become the SlayerS of Protoss lol
On August 21 2011 16:11 Djagulingu wrote: A few things from me: 1- Now we have the actual reason why Jessica is closing her twitter. 2- EG acquires PuMa and HuK: "EG IS A PIECE OF SHEET !!!!11111", SlayerS acquire CoCa and Puzzle: "They would be sone great addition to the team YAAAAAAAY !!!11111". They essentially did the same thing in an approximately same manner (SlayerS were a little bit ruder than EG but whatever), yet they get very very very different reactions. I don't know which one is true. 3- Good luck to Puzzle and CoCa at SlayerS.
1. No, it has nothing to do with this, it has to do with bashing on her over Eve. 2. This is a load of crap, people were angry at how they picked up PuMa(There is no need to mention Huk at all) by reportedly not talking to coach Lee before hand. They did talk to the coach of ZeNeX for CoCa and the Puzzle thing is still a rumor. Also, ruder!? If by that you mean they did nothing rude at all then sure. Ridiculous claim 3. finally something I can agree with.
whoa whoa whoa u cant compare the situation between EG and slayers to each other. like wtf have u been reading. EG BOUGHT Puma and HuK. that's fine, i really don't care it gives those guys an opportunity to have good financial backing, which is cool in my opinion as it only helps esports. They haven't grown any players that are doing well. What SlayerS did was see 2 very good players with potential and said "Hey, these guys look really good and they deserve better. We can maybe offer better pay and living conditions for them so they get what they deserve. Besides, our P and Z line up could get better, so it would be good overall." The argument against slayers saying that they dont grow their players, are you fuckin kidding me??!?!?!?!?? MMA, GanZi, Min, Taeja, and Alicia were NOBODIES before SlayerS. Now theyre doing great!! We should be happy that Puzzle and Coca got picked up by SlayerS because it gives better chances to grow as players and live better. Sure its sad that ZeNEX lost basically their star players but its for the greater good, and not to sound mean or anything but would u rather be on SlayerS, the team that has rising stars and BoxeR, or ZeNEX???? Most people don't seem to understand that everything is about the player in the end, not the team.
A few things from me: 1- Now we have the actual reason why Jessica is closing her twitter. 2- EG acquires PuMa and HuK: "EG IS A PIECE OF SHEET !!!!11111", SlayerS acquire CoCa and Puzzle: "They would be sone great addition to the team YAAAAAAAY !!!11111". They essentially did the same thing in an approximately same manner (SlayerS were a little bit ruder than EG but whatever), yet they get very very very different reactions. I don't know which one is true. 3- Good luck to Puzzle and CoCa at SlayerS.
The reason why people were pissed off at EG was because they basically took PuMa from TSL without consulting with the coach. Mad about Huk because TL lost their best player and people felt he was great on TL because whenever someone would think of the image of team liquid they would say Huk.
On August 21 2011 16:11 Djagulingu wrote: A few things from me: 1- Now we have the actual reason why Jessica is closing her twitter. 2- EG acquires PuMa and HuK: "EG IS A PIECE OF SHEET !!!!11111", SlayerS acquire CoCa and Puzzle: "They would be sone great addition to the team YAAAAAAAY !!!11111". They essentially did the same thing in an approximately same manner (SlayerS were a little bit ruder than EG but whatever), yet they get very very very different reactions. I don't know which one is true. 3- Good luck to Puzzle and CoCa at SlayerS.
Personally, I disliked how EG acquired PuMa and HuK not because of method of acquisition but mainly because I really dislike the concept of an overall weak team by international standards getting strong by buying their best players. On the other hands, the situation with SlayerS is more like an already extremely strong team by international standards acquiring even more players to solidify themselves. In other words, I judge a team by how well they can nurture their own players, and SlayerS has already proven to me that they can nurture some absolutely amazing players, while EG... not so much.
The difference is also how people perceive the fate of the development of players that are picked up. There are perfectly legitimate concerns regarding PuMa and HuK's practice conditions following the pickup, since they aren't in the TSL/oGs-TL houses anymore, and the team house environment filled with extremely strong players proves to be the most successful training environment by far. Contrast this with SlayerS which will basically give Puzzle and Coca an equal or perhaps better training environment than before.
why should slayersw be given shit about getting players? you get to hang out with boxer ffs , what player would pass off an opportunity to be on the same team as boxer?
But Puzzle is the team captain. A captain switching seems a lot less normal than other players switching. Despite Sheth leaving FXO (and I believe he was labeled as the captain) I cant imagine other captains such as MMA leaving SlayerS or RainBOw leaving Startale.
If he does make the switch, then it's awesome news though :D
On August 21 2011 16:11 Djagulingu wrote: A few things from me: 1- Now we have the actual reason why Jessica is closing her twitter. 2- EG acquires PuMa and HuK: "EG IS A PIECE OF SHEET !!!!11111", SlayerS acquire CoCa and Puzzle: "They would be sone great addition to the team YAAAAAAAY !!!11111". They essentially did the same thing in an approximately same manner (SlayerS were a little bit ruder than EG but whatever), yet they get very very very different reactions. I don't know which one is true. 3- Good luck to Puzzle and CoCa at SlayerS.
Totally bro! Slayers were so rude! I mean who goes to speak with the coach when you want to recruit a player?! And whats that shit about a third party witness during the negotiations between the two parties? PREPOSTEROUS I TELL YOU!
On August 21 2011 16:11 Djagulingu wrote: A few things from me: 1- Now we have the actual reason why Jessica is closing her twitter. 2- EG acquires PuMa and HuK: "EG IS A PIECE OF SHEET !!!!11111", SlayerS acquire CoCa and Puzzle: "They would be sone great addition to the team YAAAAAAAY !!!11111". They essentially did the same thing in an approximately same manner (SlayerS were a little bit ruder than EG but whatever), yet they get very very very different reactions. I don't know which one is true. 3- Good luck to Puzzle and CoCa at SlayerS.
What you expect on the internet with alot of pre-teens that don´t really read the full posts and just copy+paste what someone else said to follow what other people said.
Most people with some kind of business knowledge know that EG and SlayerS didn't do anything wrong.
On August 21 2011 16:11 Djagulingu wrote: A few things from me: 1- Now we have the actual reason why Jessica is closing her twitter. 2- EG acquires PuMa and HuK: "EG IS A PIECE OF SHEET !!!!11111", SlayerS acquire CoCa and Puzzle: "They would be sone great addition to the team YAAAAAAAY !!!11111". They essentially did the same thing in an approximately same manner (SlayerS were a little bit ruder than EG but whatever), yet they get very very very different reactions. I don't know which one is true. 3- Good luck to Puzzle and CoCa at SlayerS.
What you expect on the internet with alot of pre-teens that don´t really read the full posts and just copy+paste what someone else said to follow what other people said.
Most people with some kind of business knowledge know that EG and SlayerS didn't do anything wrong.
What EG and SlayerS did aren't anywhere near the same due to plenty of different circumstances already outlined in the thread and from a business perspective, nothing is wrong as long as your business still strives and profits from the actions. The issue with EG is more from a moral/courteous/polite standpoint.
Back on topic, I hope this is more than a rumor. SlayerS acquiring Puzzle would vastly help both parties and since I like both, it'd only be good news.
... Liquid acquired Sheth didn't they, used to be FXO?
No matter what, I think it's basically fine to acquire players. As long as you do it profesionally, which I think EG have done. And pretty much everyone does.
Just look at soccer ... so many transfers every season. It's just part of being a professional sport.
I like Puzzle, no matter the truth about the situation, whether or not he is joining a new team, I hope it turns out the best it can for him. His play is really fun to watch imho.
On August 21 2011 18:50 aebriol wrote: ... Liquid acquired Sheth didn't they, used to be FXO?
No matter what, I think it's basically fine to acquire players. As long as you do it profesionally, which I think EG have done. And pretty much everyone does.
Just look at soccer ... so many transfers every season. It's just part of being a professional sport.
I like Puzzle, no matter the truth about the situation, whether or not he is joining a new team, I hope it turns out the best it can for him. His play is really fun to watch imho.
Sheth left FXO and He later signed onto Liquid (a week?) later.
On August 21 2011 18:50 aebriol wrote: ... Liquid acquired Sheth didn't they, used to be FXO?
No matter what, I think it's basically fine to acquire players. As long as you do it profesionally, which I think EG have done. And pretty much everyone does.
Just look at soccer ... so many transfers every season. It's just part of being a professional sport.
I like Puzzle, no matter the truth about the situation, whether or not he is joining a new team, I hope it turns out the best it can for him. His play is really fun to watch imho.
Sheth left FXO and He later signed onto Liquid (a week?) later.
It's somewhat off topic but ...
It just seems like staggered announcements to avoid stupid drama. It was such a short time between those two that I really don't see a big difference personally. Can't really know if the deal was in place or not when he left (either way, absolutely nothing wrong with it, and I like sheth as well).
On August 21 2011 18:50 aebriol wrote: ... Liquid acquired Sheth didn't they, used to be FXO?
No matter what, I think it's basically fine to acquire players. As long as you do it profesionally, which I think EG have done. And pretty much everyone does.
Just look at soccer ... so many transfers every season. It's just part of being a professional sport.
I like Puzzle, no matter the truth about the situation, whether or not he is joining a new team, I hope it turns out the best it can for him. His play is really fun to watch imho.
At least in this, Sheth and FXO and different views and amicably parted ways before Sheth joined Liquid. Unless there are some behind the scenes and Liquid approached Sheth while he was in FXO and Sheth left FXO for that very reason
On August 21 2011 16:11 Djagulingu wrote: A few things from me: 1- Now we have the actual reason why Jessica is closing her twitter. 2- EG acquires PuMa and HuK: "EG IS A PIECE OF SHEET !!!!11111", SlayerS acquire CoCa and Puzzle: "They would be sone great addition to the team YAAAAAAAY !!!11111". They essentially did the same thing in an approximately same manner (SlayerS were a little bit ruder than EG but whatever), yet they get very very very different reactions. I don't know which one is true. 3- Good luck to Puzzle and CoCa at SlayerS.
I don't think either EG or Slayers deserves to be given shit about acquiring players. I feel like it's stupid to expect players who aren't under contract to let opportunities pass by just because of a sort of tradition based principle.
I don't think you understand what happened. People weren't mad about EG acquiring a player from another team. They were mad that the best player (and foreigner) was leaving their favorite team to go to their less-favored team. Regardless of what people say, that is pretty much the sole reason why people reacted violently.
In this case, a favorite acquired players, and therefore, there is a positive outlook.
If EG acquired Axslav from Dignitas, it would be a 3 page thread. If Axslav was on TL and was doing well in the GSL and also a fan favorite, then you would get the exact same thing. Buying players is how ever sport works... why would this be different?
On August 21 2011 18:50 aebriol wrote: ... Liquid acquired Sheth didn't they, used to be FXO?
No matter what, I think it's basically fine to acquire players. As long as you do it profesionally, which I think EG have done. And pretty much everyone does.
Just look at soccer ... so many transfers every season. It's just part of being a professional sport.
I like Puzzle, no matter the truth about the situation, whether or not he is joining a new team, I hope it turns out the best it can for him. His play is really fun to watch imho.
Liquid didn't aquire Sheth from FXO. FXo trew sheth more or less out, because he didn't want to train in korea. Than team liquid picked him up.
On August 21 2011 16:11 Djagulingu wrote: A few things from me: 1- Now we have the actual reason why Jessica is closing her twitter. 2- EG acquires PuMa and HuK: "EG IS A PIECE OF SHEET !!!!11111", SlayerS acquire CoCa and Puzzle: "They would be sone great addition to the team YAAAAAAAY !!!11111". They essentially did the same thing in an approximately same manner (SlayerS were a little bit ruder than EG but whatever), yet they get very very very different reactions. I don't know which one is true. 3- Good luck to Puzzle and CoCa at SlayerS.
I don't think either EG or Slayers deserves to be given shit about acquiring players. I feel like it's stupid to expect players who aren't under contract to let opportunities pass by just because of a sort of tradition based principle.
I don't think you understand what happened. People weren't mad about EG acquiring a player from another team. They were mad that the best player (and foreigner) was leaving their favorite team to go to their less-favored team. Regardless of what people say, that is pretty much the sole reason why people reacted violently.
In this case, a favorite acquired players, and therefore, there is a positive outlook.
If EG acquired Axslav from Dignitas, it would be a 3 page thread. If Axslav was on TL and was doing well in the GSL and also a fan favorite, then you would get the exact same thing. Buying players is how ever sport works... why would this be different?
Didn't know you were such an expert on people. And no, people just don't like how EG conducts business. Regardless of what people like you say
You say that buying players is how sports works... yet in many leagues have anti-tampering rules. The situations are different in the case of EG and SlayerS. EG did not technically do anything wrong, but what they did is exactly what most professional sports leagues prohibit. That's how this is different.
If this is true then it would be pretty bad for Zenex, but amazing for SlayerS. They desperately needed another good zerg and protoss and they would have that with Coca and Puzzle. All that Zenex really has left now is Byun though.
On August 21 2011 15:32 illsick wrote: if ZeNEX dies, GOM probably won't be able to field enough teams for GSTL. They are barely able to with the foreigners making up the the majority of f.united team. ZeNEX had a nice lineup of byun, puzzle, and coca... why slayers have to ruin that
Slayers have a 26 player roster atm, cmon lol
Actually, there are other Korean teams that not many people know. During the Code A qualification, there were a couple interviews with players from those "unknown" teams; and they even have team house and many of their players are on KR GM. One of the players interviewed mentioned that he quit his salary job for full time starcraft training at his team house. Even Wolf said something about those teams during casting.
This. NSH for example was completely unheard of at the time, and now they're one of the best teams in the league. There's plenty of Korean talent out there.
I love seeing all these people going "well umm you see like when EG did it it like was bad, but like when slayers did it it was like good, so lets like all cheer for slayers and hate eg yaaaaaaay!"
Really how can you try and say what slayers did was different? You know nothing about how slayers got these aquisitions, all you know is they got the players. The only reason you know enough about EGs business to dislike them, is they were transparent and told the community what happened and how it went down, that's much more than the informaiton slayers has given.
I'm a fan of both slayers and EG and like the aquisitions, but really how can you try and just say one is good and one is bad? It's just mind boggling that some people can make such wild claims with so little information.
NEXSickness just posted a topic on playxp, titled 'Confirmed: Puzzle-hyung to SlayerS'. It was then deleted like 2 seconds later. Nothing concrete, but it seems more and more likely that this is true.
On August 22 2011 02:55 Telcontar wrote: NEXSickness just posted a topic on playxp, titled 'Confirmed: Puzzle-hyung to SlayerS'. It was then deleted like 2 seconds later. Nothing concrete, but it seems more and more likely that this is true.
It seems like an official announcement is inevitable, especially after all this information has leaked out into the public.
This NEXSickness post seems to be quite intriguing, and probably confirms that something is going on between SlayerS and ZeNEX.
I eagerly await the official news. Puzzle is a beast, and would definitely have a mutually beneficial relationship with the Terran-heavy SlayerS team.
i have a friend who just spoke to some guy at playXP and that guy my friend spoke to said that puzzle is moving!!! might be that he is wrongly informed but i see it as Puzzle is looking for a team that can suport him better.... if its SlayerS or anyother team that end up contracting him we will just wait and see!! but my monney is on SlayerS
Apparently because of the CoCa fiasco everyone involved in the Puzzle transfer is keeping shut until a more appropriate time to spill the beans. But community word is that it's a certainty just waiting to be announced...
I'd like to look at it this way: Perhaps ZeNEX and Puzzle came to an agreement with SlayerS to send Puzzle over to further his training, along with CoCa, and then ZeNEX will sign two new up-and-coming players, one from Clan Zenith, and one from Clan NEX (Hopefully NEXSickness, also a Protoss).
In a perfect world, I think this would be the case. ZeNEX has a huge talent pool to pull from in the two clans, where-as (I think) SlayerS is more "what we see is what they have"
On a side note, I hope SlayerSCoCa can mentor SlayerSSleep and get even more intense vZ training for the SlayerS house, and Puzzle could do the same for Protoss.
The article is about Slayers participating in some sponsored event, not related to Puzzle though.
Nice Although I feel bad for Zenex lol, SlayerS might as well do a FXO and buy the whole team now, get Byun on their man SlayerS team and call the rest of Zenex their B-team (Jk's Zenex aren't ENTIRELY carried by Byun Puzzle and Coca ^_^)
Boxer really starts striving for the top....they already had an insanely strong terran line-up, now they have not only Alicia but also Puzzle for protoss.
Even though I am a bit unhappy about the situation of Zenex right now, if you consider that whenever a player switches a team, his contract conditions become better, I am quite happy for puzzle.
edit: can some mod please remove the "rumor" part in the title, now that it is confirmed?
funny how puzzle trash talk slayers in S2 GSTL in the interview(he said Slayers is easy team to beat but they got rolfstomped). and now he joined slayers
Great to hear, Slayers getting stronger and stronger through their excellent leadership and management both inside (team bonding/practice) and outside (business) the team.
On September 02 2011 18:58 red4ce wrote: Lame. What happened to slayers finding unknown talent and developing them. Oh well good for Puzzle I guess.
Sometimes talent and the right mind (work ethic, determination) cannot be grown. Spending resources to develop your players can sometimes be detrimental and ultimately lead to the collapse of an organization. With that said, if you have an opportunity to bring on more talent and individuals who have the right mind set, you would be stupid not to.
There's a reason why every sport has a low percentage of superstar caliber players and a high percentages of low-mid tier players. Some players naturally want to work hard and improve while everyone else remains content. Those are the players you want to build around and acquire.
well congrats to slayers and puzzle then! now they have a stronger zerg and toss line up. looking forward to see the tosses and zergs in slayers rise up soon with the teachings of coca and puzzle ^^
The article is about Slayers participating in some sponsored event, not related to Puzzle though.
Is he standing on something? He's quite a bit taller than I expected. Or is Boxer and Cella shorter than I thought?
Also poor Puppy Terran.
BoxeR is meant to be around 5'11 and Cella seems similar in height. That would make Puzzle around 6'1 or at the least a strong 6fter. Above average, but not THAT tall. Around Tasteless/Artosis' height I would say.
On August 20 2011 19:30 TDN3 wrote: I heard some people said in the Coca threat that Zenex is disbanding. Anyone knows if it's true?
as quotet 100 times, fxoBOSS was kidding ...
On September 02 2011 19:01 FaCE_1 wrote: so, maybe, Slayer will be able to send something else then a Terran? Still to see...
2 MLG ago, Alicia was there (protoss) as Code S player he was the biggest non terran hope but Tod the frensh guy beat him 2-0 and 2-2 (extended makes 4-2) in open bracket so he finished outside top50
holy shit. slayers is becoming a SICK team now. they got one of the top zergs in Coca and now they get one of the top P's in Puzzle. really becoming a well-rounded team now.
On September 02 2011 18:34 rareh wrote: Wow EG of korea = slayers
you guys have to overcome whining in soccer top teams (barca etc) get all they want even arsenals captain (fabregas) just cause of the money they have in starcraft 1 it was also the fact that players change teams, it happens in amateur area and yes also in sc2 pro area, i dont see your guys problem and the reason to flame the top teams for doing fine
On August 20 2011 21:26 NuclearJudas wrote: Since ZENEX seems to be disbanding, this isn't all to surprising. I like Puzzle and Slayers, so I'd be happy to see him transfer.
where you get this infos ? IT WAS A JOKE ... oh got FXOBoss what did you do xD
On September 02 2011 19:19 ptbl wrote: Slayers becoming more like EG. Not liking this at all.
I still can't fully understand why people need to find a reason to hate or dislike something/someone and every time attach big teams like EG to it. Gonna be hilarious to see your reactions, when and if a team like Liquid recruits somewhat known and decent/good player.
Its much better for the player to get into good and 'bigger' team. Try to understand that. And teams who recruits players like Puzzle will benefit just as much or even more from it. With good players in their line-up, more unknown stars will raise and show up.
On September 02 2011 19:19 ptbl wrote: Slayers becoming more like EG. Not liking this at all.
how about the other teams(like oGs etc etc) who got player from Zenex? are they becoming like EG too?stop blameing slayers its not their fault that Zenex dont have sponsor and cant support their player.
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Haha HolyArrow is the ultimate type of hater. Better start thinking of more clever ways to hate on EG when they inevitably start winning. Oh wait.. theyve already starting to win gogogogogoo
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Agreed.
Bad team picking up good player(s) is good, so they can increase their skill or learn from the good player(s).
Good team picking up good player(s) is bad, so they can kill a team already having a hard time and create a situation where a smaller amount of teams can compete.
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Haha HolyArrow is the ultimate type of hater. Better start thinking of more clever ways to hate on EG when they inevitably start winning. Oh wait.. theyve already starting to win gogogogogoo
I fail to see how acknowledging that EG is a pretty bad team by international standards is being a hater. It's pretty widely accepted that KR > EU > NA. EG is a NA team that, before getting PuMa and HuK, had IdrA as their only notable player. Not even trying to hate - I added the "by international standards" part so my statement would make more sense. By NA standards, EG is definitely one of the stronger teams, if that makes you feel better.
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Haha HolyArrow is the ultimate type of hater. Better start thinking of more clever ways to hate on EG when they inevitably start winning. Oh wait.. theyve already starting to win gogogogogoo
And i could tell before even checking your post history that you're a huge EG fanboy. To each his own, and what HolyArrow is saying has some truth to it. Slayers are a much more accomplished team skill wise, EG has money but not the talent (at least before aquiring Puma and HuK).
Puzzle has quickly become one of my favorite protoss players and this is great news This should be great for Puzzle's PvT and for him overall, SlayersPuzzle Fighting! :D
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Haha HolyArrow is the ultimate type of hater. Better start thinking of more clever ways to hate on EG when they inevitably start winning. Oh wait.. theyve already starting to win gogogogogoo
The thing, for me at least, is SlayerS has shown that they have the ability to develop their own players (Min, Ryung, Alicia, MMA) while EG hasn't. It creates this notion that EG is just a weak team that buys success rather than cultivates it themselves.
Edit -
It's also been proven, by Taeja and Ganzi, that players who join SlayerS improve a lot. The opposite can be said for EG and their acquisitions (exception being PuMa and Huk since it's too early).
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Agreed.
Bad team picking up good player(s) is good, so they can increase their skill or learn from the good player(s).
Good team picking up good player(s) is bad, so they can kill a team already having a hard time and create a situation where a smaller amount of teams can compete.
So its better for the players who DESERVES a good team to stay in a dying/weak team or stay without a team? Get a fucking grip.
Good teams can also benefit from good players, not just the way that they can win games or tournaments. As i said on my post, team like Slayers can use these good players to teach their secrets and skills to those who are much worse and unknown. Players like Buzzle, MMA and Boxer are like Sensei's to these guys. Without them there wouldn't be as much of those raising starts.
ps. i'm not saying that Zenex is dying or anything.
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Agreed.
Bad team picking up good player(s) is good, so they can increase their skill or learn from the good player(s).
Good team picking up good player(s) is bad, so they can kill a team already having a hard time and create a situation where a smaller amount of teams can compete.
This is where we have philosophical differences. I just strongly disagree with the concept of a weak team "buying" their good players instead of nurturing them. I don't like it at all - it just seems kind of cheap to me. On the other hand, I am completely okay with a strong team that nurtured their own players adding more strong players to their roster - they did their part in nurturing their players, and now it's totally acceptable that other players see that team and want to be part of it. I guess the bottom line here is whether or not a team is strong by nurture rather than buying good players. It's the main factor for me, personally. Obviously, this is merely my opinion, and it's not backed by any sort of ethical or moral argument.
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Agreed.
Bad team picking up good player(s) is good, so they can increase their skill or learn from the good player(s).
Good team picking up good player(s) is bad, so they can kill a team already having a hard time and create a situation where a smaller amount of teams can compete.
stay in a dying/weak team
Zenex is dying, because slayers stole 2 players already. They weren't dying before slayers stole their players without authorization of Zenex manager,
On September 02 2011 19:19 ptbl wrote: Slayers becoming more like EG. Not liking this at all.
how about the other teams(like oGs etc etc) who got player from Zenex? are they becoming like EG too?stop blameing slayers its not their fault that Zenex dont have sponsor and cant support their player.
Please tell what players ogs picked from zenex that is on the same calibre as coca and puzzle.
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Haha HolyArrow is the ultimate type of hater. Better start thinking of more clever ways to hate on EG when they inevitably start winning. Oh wait.. theyve already starting to win gogogogogoo
The thing, for me at least, is SlayerS has shown that they have the ability to develop their own players (Min, Ryung, Alicia, MMA) while EG hasn't. It creates this notion that EG is just a weak team that buys success rather than cultivates it themselves.
Edit -
It's also been proven, by Taeja and Ganzi, that players who join SlayerS improve a lot. The opposite can be said for EG and their acquisitions (exception being PuMa and Huk since it's too early).
Sometimes talent and the right mind (work ethic, determination) cannot be grown. Spending resources to develop your players can sometimes be detrimental and ultimately lead to the collapse of an organization. With that said, if you have an opportunity to bring on more talent and individuals who have the right mind set, you would be stupid not to.
There's a reason why every sport has a low percentage of superstar caliber players and a high percentages of low-mid tier players. Some players naturally want to work hard and improve while everyone else remains content. Those are the players you want to build around and acquire.
Also what happens when players like Machine and Axslav start improving now that they have a team house like slayers?
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Agreed.
Bad team picking up good player(s) is good, so they can increase their skill or learn from the good player(s).
Good team picking up good player(s) is bad, so they can kill a team already having a hard time and create a situation where a smaller amount of teams can compete.
This is where we have philosophical differences. I just strongly disagree with the concept of a weak team "buying" their good players instead of nurturing them. I don't like it at all - it just seems kind of cheap to me. On the other hand, I am completely okay with a strong team that nurtured their own players adding more strong players to their roster - they did their part in nurturing their players, and now it's totally acceptable that other players see that team and want to be part of it. I guess the bottom line here is whether or not a team is strong by nurture rather than buying good players. It's the main factor for me, personally. Obviously, this is merely my opinion, and it's not backed by any sort of ethical or moral argument.
They are nurturing their players, in fact puma is teaching a lot to demuslim and huk to incontrol. Look at how much better demuslim has got in just 1 week!
Point is if slayers buy all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time and it will make the scene a boring monopoly. Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc were all in the same team.
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Agreed.
Bad team picking up good player(s) is good, so they can increase their skill or learn from the good player(s).
Good team picking up good player(s) is bad, so they can kill a team already having a hard time and create a situation where a smaller amount of teams can compete.
This is where we have philosophical differences. I just strongly disagree with the concept of a weak team "buying" their good players instead of nurturing them. I don't like it at all - it just seems kind of cheap to me. On the other hand, I am completely okay with a strong team that nurtured their own players adding more strong players to their roster - they did their part in nurturing their players, and now it's totally acceptable that other players see that team and want to be part of it. I guess the bottom line here is whether or not a team is strong by nurture rather than buying good players. It's the main factor for me, personally. Obviously, this is merely my opinion, and it's not backed by any sort of ethical or moral argument.
They are nurturing their players, in fact puma is teaching a lot to demuslim and huk to incontrol. Look at how much better demuslim has got in just 1 week!
Point is if slayers buy all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time and it will make the scene a boring monopoly. Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc were all in the same team.
Sure, they're now nurturing their players, by using the players that they bought. That doesn't supersede the fact that they had to buy good players for that to even happen, which is, to me, still a huge minus.
The point about SlayerS buying all good players and creating a boring monopoly is moot because... that's not really what's happening. When SlayerS recruits MC, MVP, and Nestea, then you'll have an argument.
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Agreed.
Bad team picking up good player(s) is good, so they can increase their skill or learn from the good player(s).
Good team picking up good player(s) is bad, so they can kill a team already having a hard time and create a situation where a smaller amount of teams can compete.
This is where we have philosophical differences. I just strongly disagree with the concept of a weak team "buying" their good players instead of nurturing them. I don't like it at all - it just seems kind of cheap to me. On the other hand, I am completely okay with a strong team that nurtured their own players adding more strong players to their roster - they did their part in nurturing their players, and now it's totally acceptable that other players see that team and want to be part of it. I guess the bottom line here is whether or not a team is strong by nurture rather than buying good players. It's the main factor for me, personally. Obviously, this is merely my opinion, and it's not backed by any sort of ethical or moral argument.
They are nurturing their players, in fact puma is teaching a lot to demuslim and huk to incontrol. Look at how much better demuslim has got in just 1 week!
Point is if slayers buy all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time and it will make the scene a boring monopoly. Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc were all in the same team.
Sure, they're now nurturing their players, by using the players that they bought. That doesn't supersede the fact that they had to buy good players for that to even happen, which is, to me, still a huge minus.
The point about SlayerS buying all good players and creating a boring monopoly is moot because... that's not really what's happening. When SlayerS recruits MC, MVP, and Nestea, then you'll have an argument.
not really since if you look at TLPD they already have the n1 protoss Puzzle.
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Agreed.
Bad team picking up good player(s) is good, so they can increase their skill or learn from the good player(s).
Good team picking up good player(s) is bad, so they can kill a team already having a hard time and create a situation where a smaller amount of teams can compete.
This is where we have philosophical differences. I just strongly disagree with the concept of a weak team "buying" their good players instead of nurturing them. I don't like it at all - it just seems kind of cheap to me. On the other hand, I am completely okay with a strong team that nurtured their own players adding more strong players to their roster - they did their part in nurturing their players, and now it's totally acceptable that other players see that team and want to be part of it. I guess the bottom line here is whether or not a team is strong by nurture rather than buying good players. It's the main factor for me, personally. Obviously, this is merely my opinion, and it's not backed by any sort of ethical or moral argument.
They are nurturing their players, in fact puma is teaching a lot to demuslim and huk to incontrol. Look at how much better demuslim has got in just 1 week!
Point is if slayers buy all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time and it will make the scene a boring monopoly. Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc were all in the same team.
Sure, they're now nurturing their players, by using the players that they bought. That doesn't supersede the fact that they had to buy good players for that to even happen, which is, to me, still a huge minus.
The point about SlayerS buying all good players and creating a boring monopoly is moot because... that's not really what's happening. When SlayerS recruits MC, MVP, and Nestea, then you'll have an argument.
not really since if you look at TLPD they already have the n1 protoss Puzzle.
Also to get he best players they have to be willing to leave i doubt nestea and mvp would...
You're using ELO as your measurement. That doesn't really work. Do you also believe Polt to be > MVP, Naya and Life > July and Leenock, cOre > HongUn and HuK, and Gumiho > MMA? MC is still the top Protoss as the only Protoss to win a GSL (let alone twice). ELO has its uses, but it, like any other ranking system, it has its flaws. But hey, let's assume that ELO actually is an objectively perfect measurement of players, just to humor your argument. I count 6 SlayerS players (including Puzzle) in the top 40 players. That is about as far from a monopoly as you could be.
With that said, you seem to have contradicted yourself in your last sentence. First you say, "Point is if slayers buys all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time.... Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc. were all in the same team". Then, you say "Also, the best players have to be willing to leave, and I doubt Nestea and MVP would". Yeah. Thus, your worries about SlayerS making a boring monopoly of all the best players are unfounded. Nestea and MVP aren't going anywhere.
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Agreed.
Bad team picking up good player(s) is good, so they can increase their skill or learn from the good player(s).
Good team picking up good player(s) is bad, so they can kill a team already having a hard time and create a situation where a smaller amount of teams can compete.
This is where we have philosophical differences. I just strongly disagree with the concept of a weak team "buying" their good players instead of nurturing them. I don't like it at all - it just seems kind of cheap to me. On the other hand, I am completely okay with a strong team that nurtured their own players adding more strong players to their roster - they did their part in nurturing their players, and now it's totally acceptable that other players see that team and want to be part of it. I guess the bottom line here is whether or not a team is strong by nurture rather than buying good players. It's the main factor for me, personally. Obviously, this is merely my opinion, and it's not backed by any sort of ethical or moral argument.
They are nurturing their players, in fact puma is teaching a lot to demuslim and huk to incontrol. Look at how much better demuslim has got in just 1 week!
Point is if slayers buy all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time and it will make the scene a boring monopoly. Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc were all in the same team.
Sure, they're now nurturing their players, by using the players that they bought. That doesn't supersede the fact that they had to buy good players for that to even happen, which is, to me, still a huge minus.
The point about SlayerS buying all good players and creating a boring monopoly is moot because... that's not really what's happening. When SlayerS recruits MC, MVP, and Nestea, then you'll have an argument.
not really since if you look at TLPD they already have the n1 protoss Puzzle.
Also to get he best players they have to be willing to leave i doubt nestea and mvp would...
You're using ELO as your measurement. That doesn't really work. Do you also believe Polt to be > MVP, Naya and Life > July and Leenock, cOre > HongUn and HuK, and Gumiho > MMA? MC is still the top Protoss as the only Protoss to win a GSL (let alone twice). ELO has its uses, but it, like any other ranking system, it has its flaws.
With that said, you seem to have contradicted yourself in your last sentence. First you say, "Point is if slayers buys all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time.... Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc. were all in the same team". Then, you say "Also, the best players have to be winning to leave, and I doubt Nestea and MVP would". Yeah. Thus, your worries about SlayerS making a boring monopoly of all the best players are unfounded. Nestea and MVP aren't going anywhere.
Polt is incredibly underrated seems like GSL ST didn't teach u anything
ELO works better then gsl ranking or "who won the most gsls a year ago". MC is playing really bad only has a high score(gsl ranking) since he won 2 gsls some months ago, but is in a huge slump misses easy forcefields, etc. Are u telling me fruitdealer is a awesome player just cause he won gsl ? He is in code A and barely wins some games, same will happen to mc.
About the contradiction not really, i never said most acomplished for each race, i said the best players (like top 10 or top 3 in a matchup TvZ etc).
Puzzle is regarded as the best Protoss by koreans atm. Coca as one of the best zergs and the one with most potential.
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Agreed.
Bad team picking up good player(s) is good, so they can increase their skill or learn from the good player(s).
Good team picking up good player(s) is bad, so they can kill a team already having a hard time and create a situation where a smaller amount of teams can compete.
This is where we have philosophical differences. I just strongly disagree with the concept of a weak team "buying" their good players instead of nurturing them. I don't like it at all - it just seems kind of cheap to me. On the other hand, I am completely okay with a strong team that nurtured their own players adding more strong players to their roster - they did their part in nurturing their players, and now it's totally acceptable that other players see that team and want to be part of it. I guess the bottom line here is whether or not a team is strong by nurture rather than buying good players. It's the main factor for me, personally. Obviously, this is merely my opinion, and it's not backed by any sort of ethical or moral argument.
They are nurturing their players, in fact puma is teaching a lot to demuslim and huk to incontrol. Look at how much better demuslim has got in just 1 week!
Point is if slayers buy all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time and it will make the scene a boring monopoly. Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc were all in the same team.
Sure, they're now nurturing their players, by using the players that they bought. That doesn't supersede the fact that they had to buy good players for that to even happen, which is, to me, still a huge minus.
The point about SlayerS buying all good players and creating a boring monopoly is moot because... that's not really what's happening. When SlayerS recruits MC, MVP, and Nestea, then you'll have an argument.
not really since if you look at TLPD they already have the n1 protoss Puzzle.
Also to get he best players they have to be willing to leave i doubt nestea and mvp would...
You're using ELO as your measurement. That doesn't really work. Do you also believe Polt to be > MVP, Naya and Life > July and Leenock, cOre > HongUn and HuK, and Gumiho > MMA? MC is still the top Protoss as the only Protoss to win a GSL (let alone twice). ELO has its uses, but it, like any other ranking system, it has its flaws.
With that said, you seem to have contradicted yourself in your last sentence. First you say, "Point is if slayers buys all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time.... Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc. were all in the same team". Then, you say "Also, the best players have to be winning to leave, and I doubt Nestea and MVP would". Yeah. Thus, your worries about SlayerS making a boring monopoly of all the best players are unfounded. Nestea and MVP aren't going anywhere.
Polt is incredibly underrated seems like GSL ST didn't teach u anything
ELO works better then gsl ranking or "who won the most gsls a year ago". MC is playing really bad only has a high score(gsl ranking) since he won 2 gsls some months ago, but is in a huge slump misses easy forcefields, etc. Are u telling me fruitdealer is a awesome player just cause he won gsl ? He is in code A and barely wins some games, same will happen to mc.
About the contradiction not really, i never said most acomplished for each race, i said the best players (like top 10 or top 3 in a matchup TvZ etc).
Puzzle is regarded as the best Protoss by koreans atm. Coca as one of the best zergs and the one with most potential.
Polt being underrated is irrelevant in my direct comparison of him to MVP - you're dodging the question of whether or not you believe him to be superior to MVP.
Anyway, fine - you have your own opinions of how players should be ranked, and you obviously place lots of emphasis on more recent results and on the ELO. I respect that. With that said, my point about SlayerS only having 6 players in the top 40 ELO (sorry, seems you responded before I made that edit) still stands - nothing looks even remotely close to a "monopoly" that you talk about - right now, that's a purely empty worry. Coca having the most potential out of all the Zergs is also completely unfounded and is unprovable.
On September 02 2011 20:48 IntoTheheart wrote: Finally a non-terran player on SlayerS. Kidding, haha. Hopefully they'll use him though, instead of going 4T every time.
Thought the same. It appeared as if the mass-terran strategy was a gigantic weakness in the current GSTL. Also just for the sake of seeing something new.
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Agreed.
Bad team picking up good player(s) is good, so they can increase their skill or learn from the good player(s).
Good team picking up good player(s) is bad, so they can kill a team already having a hard time and create a situation where a smaller amount of teams can compete.
This is where we have philosophical differences. I just strongly disagree with the concept of a weak team "buying" their good players instead of nurturing them. I don't like it at all - it just seems kind of cheap to me. On the other hand, I am completely okay with a strong team that nurtured their own players adding more strong players to their roster - they did their part in nurturing their players, and now it's totally acceptable that other players see that team and want to be part of it. I guess the bottom line here is whether or not a team is strong by nurture rather than buying good players. It's the main factor for me, personally. Obviously, this is merely my opinion, and it's not backed by any sort of ethical or moral argument.
They are nurturing their players, in fact puma is teaching a lot to demuslim and huk to incontrol. Look at how much better demuslim has got in just 1 week!
Point is if slayers buy all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time and it will make the scene a boring monopoly. Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc were all in the same team.
Sure, they're now nurturing their players, by using the players that they bought. That doesn't supersede the fact that they had to buy good players for that to even happen, which is, to me, still a huge minus.
The point about SlayerS buying all good players and creating a boring monopoly is moot because... that's not really what's happening. When SlayerS recruits MC, MVP, and Nestea, then you'll have an argument.
not really since if you look at TLPD they already have the n1 protoss Puzzle.
Also to get he best players they have to be willing to leave i doubt nestea and mvp would...
You're using ELO as your measurement. That doesn't really work. Do you also believe Polt to be > MVP, Naya and Life > July and Leenock, cOre > HongUn and HuK, and Gumiho > MMA? MC is still the top Protoss as the only Protoss to win a GSL (let alone twice). ELO has its uses, but it, like any other ranking system, it has its flaws.
With that said, you seem to have contradicted yourself in your last sentence. First you say, "Point is if slayers buys all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time.... Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc. were all in the same team". Then, you say "Also, the best players have to be winning to leave, and I doubt Nestea and MVP would". Yeah. Thus, your worries about SlayerS making a boring monopoly of all the best players are unfounded. Nestea and MVP aren't going anywhere.
Polt is incredibly underrated seems like GSL ST didn't teach u anything
ELO works better then gsl ranking or "who won the most gsls a year ago". MC is playing really bad only has a high score(gsl ranking) since he won 2 gsls some months ago, but is in a huge slump misses easy forcefields, etc. Are u telling me fruitdealer is a awesome player just cause he won gsl ? He is in code A and barely wins some games, same will happen to mc.
About the contradiction not really, i never said most acomplished for each race, i said the best players (like top 10 or top 3 in a matchup TvZ etc).
Puzzle is regarded as the best Protoss by koreans atm. Coca as one of the best zergs and the one with most potential.
Puzzle is regarded as the best protoss yet how much as he won? How consistent has he been over a longer period of time? Seems like the fanbase of SC2 are very quick to hype a player that's been good for a short while, when it's way harder to stay on top for ages. Artosis hypes players left and right and many of them turn out to not be as good or consistent as he and the community was expecting.
Also predicting that MC will slump like Fruitdealer seems like pure bs as MC still got 2nd as IEM and shows good games still. Fruitdealer and MC are in completely different spots atm. MC is still good, has motivation and has been in a slight slump lately, Fruitdealer hasn't been good for a year now and doesn't seem to care much. Your arguments seem weak to me.
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Agreed.
Bad team picking up good player(s) is good, so they can increase their skill or learn from the good player(s).
Good team picking up good player(s) is bad, so they can kill a team already having a hard time and create a situation where a smaller amount of teams can compete.
This is where we have philosophical differences. I just strongly disagree with the concept of a weak team "buying" their good players instead of nurturing them. I don't like it at all - it just seems kind of cheap to me. On the other hand, I am completely okay with a strong team that nurtured their own players adding more strong players to their roster - they did their part in nurturing their players, and now it's totally acceptable that other players see that team and want to be part of it. I guess the bottom line here is whether or not a team is strong by nurture rather than buying good players. It's the main factor for me, personally. Obviously, this is merely my opinion, and it's not backed by any sort of ethical or moral argument.
They are nurturing their players, in fact puma is teaching a lot to demuslim and huk to incontrol. Look at how much better demuslim has got in just 1 week!
Point is if slayers buy all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time and it will make the scene a boring monopoly. Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc were all in the same team.
Sure, they're now nurturing their players, by using the players that they bought. That doesn't supersede the fact that they had to buy good players for that to even happen, which is, to me, still a huge minus.
The point about SlayerS buying all good players and creating a boring monopoly is moot because... that's not really what's happening. When SlayerS recruits MC, MVP, and Nestea, then you'll have an argument.
not really since if you look at TLPD they already have the n1 protoss Puzzle.
Also to get he best players they have to be willing to leave i doubt nestea and mvp would...
You're using ELO as your measurement. That doesn't really work. Do you also believe Polt to be > MVP, Naya and Life > July and Leenock, cOre > HongUn and HuK, and Gumiho > MMA? MC is still the top Protoss as the only Protoss to win a GSL (let alone twice). ELO has its uses, but it, like any other ranking system, it has its flaws.
With that said, you seem to have contradicted yourself in your last sentence. First you say, "Point is if slayers buys all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time.... Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc. were all in the same team". Then, you say "Also, the best players have to be winning to leave, and I doubt Nestea and MVP would". Yeah. Thus, your worries about SlayerS making a boring monopoly of all the best players are unfounded. Nestea and MVP aren't going anywhere.
Polt is incredibly underrated seems like GSL ST didn't teach u anything
ELO works better then gsl ranking or "who won the most gsls a year ago". MC is playing really bad only has a high score(gsl ranking) since he won 2 gsls some months ago, but is in a huge slump misses easy forcefields, etc. Are u telling me fruitdealer is a awesome player just cause he won gsl ? He is in code A and barely wins some games, same will happen to mc.
About the contradiction not really, i never said most acomplished for each race, i said the best players (like top 10 or top 3 in a matchup TvZ etc).
Puzzle is regarded as the best Protoss by koreans atm. Coca as one of the best zergs and the one with most potential.
Puzzle is regarded as the best protoss yet how much as he won? How consistent has he been over a longer period of time? Seems like the fanbase of SC2 are very quick to hype a player that's been good for a short while, when it's way harder to stay on top for ages. Artosis hypes players left and right and many of them turn out to not be as good or consistent as he and the community was expecting.
Also predicting that MC will slump like Fruitdealer seems like pure bs as MC still got 2nd as IEM and shows good games still. Fruitdealer and MC are in completely different spots atm. MC is still good, has motivation and has been in a slight slump lately, Fruitdealer hasn't been good for a year now and doesn't seem to care much. Your arguments seem weak to me.
You can't forget that we foreigners don't get the full picture. As tastosis have pointed out numerous times, Puzzle is consistently considered one of the best players in the world over in Korea. All we get to see is GSL, obviously the koreans have a more enlightened perspective.
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Agreed.
Bad team picking up good player(s) is good, so they can increase their skill or learn from the good player(s).
Good team picking up good player(s) is bad, so they can kill a team already having a hard time and create a situation where a smaller amount of teams can compete.
This is where we have philosophical differences. I just strongly disagree with the concept of a weak team "buying" their good players instead of nurturing them. I don't like it at all - it just seems kind of cheap to me. On the other hand, I am completely okay with a strong team that nurtured their own players adding more strong players to their roster - they did their part in nurturing their players, and now it's totally acceptable that other players see that team and want to be part of it. I guess the bottom line here is whether or not a team is strong by nurture rather than buying good players. It's the main factor for me, personally. Obviously, this is merely my opinion, and it's not backed by any sort of ethical or moral argument.
They are nurturing their players, in fact puma is teaching a lot to demuslim and huk to incontrol. Look at how much better demuslim has got in just 1 week!
Point is if slayers buy all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time and it will make the scene a boring monopoly. Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc were all in the same team.
Sure, they're now nurturing their players, by using the players that they bought. That doesn't supersede the fact that they had to buy good players for that to even happen, which is, to me, still a huge minus.
The point about SlayerS buying all good players and creating a boring monopoly is moot because... that's not really what's happening. When SlayerS recruits MC, MVP, and Nestea, then you'll have an argument.
not really since if you look at TLPD they already have the n1 protoss Puzzle.
Also to get he best players they have to be willing to leave i doubt nestea and mvp would...
You're using ELO as your measurement. That doesn't really work. Do you also believe Polt to be > MVP, Naya and Life > July and Leenock, cOre > HongUn and HuK, and Gumiho > MMA? MC is still the top Protoss as the only Protoss to win a GSL (let alone twice). ELO has its uses, but it, like any other ranking system, it has its flaws.
With that said, you seem to have contradicted yourself in your last sentence. First you say, "Point is if slayers buys all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time.... Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc. were all in the same team". Then, you say "Also, the best players have to be winning to leave, and I doubt Nestea and MVP would". Yeah. Thus, your worries about SlayerS making a boring monopoly of all the best players are unfounded. Nestea and MVP aren't going anywhere.
Polt is incredibly underrated seems like GSL ST didn't teach u anything
ELO works better then gsl ranking or "who won the most gsls a year ago". MC is playing really bad only has a high score(gsl ranking) since he won 2 gsls some months ago, but is in a huge slump misses easy forcefields, etc. Are u telling me fruitdealer is a awesome player just cause he won gsl ? He is in code A and barely wins some games, same will happen to mc.
About the contradiction not really, i never said most acomplished for each race, i said the best players (like top 10 or top 3 in a matchup TvZ etc).
Puzzle is regarded as the best Protoss by koreans atm. Coca as one of the best zergs and the one with most potential.
Puzzle is regarded as the best protoss yet how much as he won? How consistent has he been over a longer period of time? Seems like the fanbase of SC2 are very quick to hype a player that's been good for a short while, when it's way harder to stay on top for ages. Artosis hypes players left and right and many of them turn out to not be as good or consistent as he and the community was expecting.
Also predicting that MC will slump like Fruitdealer seems like pure bs as MC still got 2nd as IEM and shows good games still. Fruitdealer and MC are in completely different spots atm. MC is still good, has motivation and has been in a slight slump lately, Fruitdealer hasn't been good for a year now and doesn't seem to care much. Your arguments seem weak to me.
You can't forget that we foreigners don't get the full picture. As tastosis have pointed out numerous times, Puzzle is consistently considered one of the best players in the world over in Korea. All we get to see is GSL, obviously the koreans have a more enlightened perspective.
Yet Artosis himself has said that there's not much going on in competitive SC2 in korea beside the GSL, so are people basing this of ladder? I'm not saying he isn't good but the guy i quoted more or less said he was better than MC and that MC will slump in the same way Fruitdealer did. You gotta admit that that is pretty much just bullshit, right?
On September 02 2011 22:58 Headnoob wrote: Slayers now have a strong protoss AND zerg player, imagine the good things it'll do for the other zerg and protoss players there.
and the zerg they just recruited (coca) is a zvp monster!
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Agreed.
Bad team picking up good player(s) is good, so they can increase their skill or learn from the good player(s).
Good team picking up good player(s) is bad, so they can kill a team already having a hard time and create a situation where a smaller amount of teams can compete.
This is where we have philosophical differences. I just strongly disagree with the concept of a weak team "buying" their good players instead of nurturing them. I don't like it at all - it just seems kind of cheap to me. On the other hand, I am completely okay with a strong team that nurtured their own players adding more strong players to their roster - they did their part in nurturing their players, and now it's totally acceptable that other players see that team and want to be part of it. I guess the bottom line here is whether or not a team is strong by nurture rather than buying good players. It's the main factor for me, personally. Obviously, this is merely my opinion, and it's not backed by any sort of ethical or moral argument.
They are nurturing their players, in fact puma is teaching a lot to demuslim and huk to incontrol. Look at how much better demuslim has got in just 1 week!
Point is if slayers buy all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time and it will make the scene a boring monopoly. Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc were all in the same team.
Sure, they're now nurturing their players, by using the players that they bought. That doesn't supersede the fact that they had to buy good players for that to even happen, which is, to me, still a huge minus.
The point about SlayerS buying all good players and creating a boring monopoly is moot because... that's not really what's happening. When SlayerS recruits MC, MVP, and Nestea, then you'll have an argument.
not really since if you look at TLPD they already have the n1 protoss Puzzle.
Also to get he best players they have to be willing to leave i doubt nestea and mvp would...
You're using ELO as your measurement. That doesn't really work. Do you also believe Polt to be > MVP, Naya and Life > July and Leenock, cOre > HongUn and HuK, and Gumiho > MMA? MC is still the top Protoss as the only Protoss to win a GSL (let alone twice). ELO has its uses, but it, like any other ranking system, it has its flaws.
With that said, you seem to have contradicted yourself in your last sentence. First you say, "Point is if slayers buys all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time.... Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc. were all in the same team". Then, you say "Also, the best players have to be winning to leave, and I doubt Nestea and MVP would". Yeah. Thus, your worries about SlayerS making a boring monopoly of all the best players are unfounded. Nestea and MVP aren't going anywhere.
Polt is incredibly underrated seems like GSL ST didn't teach u anything
ELO works better then gsl ranking or "who won the most gsls a year ago". MC is playing really bad only has a high score(gsl ranking) since he won 2 gsls some months ago, but is in a huge slump misses easy forcefields, etc. Are u telling me fruitdealer is a awesome player just cause he won gsl ? He is in code A and barely wins some games, same will happen to mc.
About the contradiction not really, i never said most acomplished for each race, i said the best players (like top 10 or top 3 in a matchup TvZ etc).
Puzzle is regarded as the best Protoss by koreans atm. Coca as one of the best zergs and the one with most potential.
MC is in a slump, but to say he's fallen off the wagon like Fruitdealer is completely false, he still took 2nd at NASL, 2nd at IEM, ro8 in last code S and his last GSL championship was GSL March
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Haha HolyArrow is the ultimate type of hater. Better start thinking of more clever ways to hate on EG when they inevitably start winning. Oh wait.. theyve already starting to win gogogogogoo
The thing, for me at least, is SlayerS has shown that they have the ability to develop their own players (Min, Ryung, Alicia, MMA) while EG hasn't. It creates this notion that EG is just a weak team that buys success rather than cultivates it themselves.
Edit -
It's also been proven, by Taeja and Ganzi, that players who join SlayerS improve a lot. The opposite can be said for EG and their acquisitions (exception being PuMa and Huk since it's too early).
Also what happens when players like Machine and Axslav start improving now that they have a team house like slayers?
EG doesn't have a team house like SlayerS. Sure EG got a team house, but they are lightyears from the standard of SlayerS and other teams in Korea. And they will NEVER get up that standard as long as they are located in the US and with the roster they have right now.
And nothing will happen with Axslav and Machine. They will still play the same players as before the team house, but probably more hours. But they clearly doesn't have the talent or skill to actually become a top player. The only player in EG right now that has potential to become a really solid player except IdrA, HuK and PuMA is DeMusliM if he goes to Korea with those three.
On September 03 2011 01:38 TemplarCo. wrote: Finally Alicia has a very good Protoss player to practice with! Congrats to Puzzle! SlayerS and Puzzle FIGHTING!
The irony is that PvP is the only matchup that Alicia doesn't need help with :p
I feel bad for ZeNex, but Slayers is doing a good job of getting all my favorite players in one place. Makes picking who to root for that much easier.
I heard boxer road into the Zenex house on Yellow's shoulders, defeated the rest of zenex in 1-on-1 combat, then took the fair Puzzle back to his hideout as prize.
On September 03 2011 01:38 TemplarCo. wrote: Finally Alicia has a very good Protoss player to practice with! Congrats to Puzzle! SlayerS and Puzzle FIGHTING!
The irony is that PvP is the only matchup that Alicia doesn't need help with :p
I feel bad for ZeNex, but Slayers is doing a good job of getting all my favorite players in one place. Makes picking who to root for that much easier.
Thats a myth. He managed to knock MC out but he lost to TOD twice. Hes also stated lots of times about how much he hates PvP.
I guess this makes SlayerS the strongest, deepest team? I mean, you have the argument that IM is the best team in the world, but when they're basically three heavyweights carrying the entire team, I dunno. Whereas SlayerS now has the following:
- CoCa: ZvP specialist who's been improving his other match-ups - Puzzle: strong Protoss all around - Ganzi: TvT specialist, above average TvZ and 1/1/1 TvP - MMA: TvZ specialist, above average TvT, mediocre TvP - Alicia: decent in PvP but lately has been slumping in the Era of 1/1/1 - Ryung: TvT specialist, above average TvZ, mediocre TvP - Taeja: Very strong all around with a focus on TvP and TvT - Boxer: Don't need to explain this one ...
Bad team picking up good player(s) is good, so they can increase their skill or learn from the good player(s).
Good team picking up good player(s) is bad, so they can kill a team already having a hard time and create a situation where a smaller amount of teams can compete.
This is where we have philosophical differences. I just strongly disagree with the concept of a weak team "buying" their good players instead of nurturing them. I don't like it at all - it just seems kind of cheap to me. On the other hand, I am completely okay with a strong team that nurtured their own players adding more strong players to their roster - they did their part in nurturing their players, and now it's totally acceptable that other players see that team and want to be part of it. I guess the bottom line here is whether or not a team is strong by nurture rather than buying good players. It's the main factor for me, personally. Obviously, this is merely my opinion, and it's not backed by any sort of ethical or moral argument.
They are nurturing their players, in fact puma is teaching a lot to demuslim and huk to incontrol. Look at how much better demuslim has got in just 1 week!
Point is if slayers buy all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time and it will make the scene a boring monopoly. Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc were all in the same team.
Sure, they're now nurturing their players, by using the players that they bought. That doesn't supersede the fact that they had to buy good players for that to even happen, which is, to me, still a huge minus.
The point about SlayerS buying all good players and creating a boring monopoly is moot because... that's not really what's happening. When SlayerS recruits MC, MVP, and Nestea, then you'll have an argument.
not really since if you look at TLPD they already have the n1 protoss Puzzle.
Also to get he best players they have to be willing to leave i doubt nestea and mvp would...
You're using ELO as your measurement. That doesn't really work. Do you also believe Polt to be > MVP, Naya and Life > July and Leenock, cOre > HongUn and HuK, and Gumiho > MMA? MC is still the top Protoss as the only Protoss to win a GSL (let alone twice). ELO has its uses, but it, like any other ranking system, it has its flaws.
With that said, you seem to have contradicted yourself in your last sentence. First you say, "Point is if slayers buys all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time.... Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc. were all in the same team". Then, you say "Also, the best players have to be winning to leave, and I doubt Nestea and MVP would". Yeah. Thus, your worries about SlayerS making a boring monopoly of all the best players are unfounded. Nestea and MVP aren't going anywhere.
Polt is incredibly underrated seems like GSL ST didn't teach u anything
ELO works better then gsl ranking or "who won the most gsls a year ago". MC is playing really bad only has a high score(gsl ranking) since he won 2 gsls some months ago, but is in a huge slump misses easy forcefields, etc. Are u telling me fruitdealer is a awesome player just cause he won gsl ? He is in code A and barely wins some games, same will happen to mc.
About the contradiction not really, i never said most acomplished for each race, i said the best players (like top 10 or top 3 in a matchup TvZ etc).
Puzzle is regarded as the best Protoss by koreans atm. Coca as one of the best zergs and the one with most potential.
Puzzle is regarded as the best protoss yet how much as he won? How consistent has he been over a longer period of time? Seems like the fanbase of SC2 are very quick to hype a player that's been good for a short while, when it's way harder to stay on top for ages. Artosis hypes players left and right and many of them turn out to not be as good or consistent as he and the community was expecting.
Also predicting that MC will slump like Fruitdealer seems like pure bs as MC still got 2nd as IEM and shows good games still. Fruitdealer and MC are in completely different spots atm. MC is still good, has motivation and has been in a slight slump lately, Fruitdealer hasn't been good for a year now and doesn't seem to care much. Your arguments seem weak to me.
You can't forget that we foreigners don't get the full picture. As tastosis have pointed out numerous times, Puzzle is consistently considered one of the best players in the world over in Korea. All we get to see is GSL, obviously the koreans have a more enlightened perspective.
Yet Artosis himself has said that there's not much going on in competitive SC2 in korea beside the GSL, so are people basing this of ladder? I'm not saying he isn't good but the guy i quoted more or less said he was better than MC and that MC will slump in the same way Fruitdealer did. You gotta admit that that is pretty much just bullshit, right?
Lets look at the last 2 seasons of gsl, anything prior to that is kind far away, nasl didn't have the top players except puma,alive and july, iem only had puma, so those aren't a good way to go about it.
Puzzle:
GSL July
Puzzle wins code A by defeating big names like MMA, Tassadar and happy. Didn't lose a single map until the final against Tassadar!
August
Puzzle goes to the playoffs loses to ryung, when he is deciding joining the team of his opponent, you could see how friendly they were after the game. Doubt he was focusing on the game as much as switching teams, so there is always that excuse.
MC:
July
MC loses to a guy with an injured wrist.
August
Goes to up and down. Btw he played awful against fenix on gstl, missing easy force-fields etc .
Man slayers such a sick team now, before it's just a bunch of good Terrans so most of their TvT's are very good, now they got good Zerg and Protoss in the team too, can't wait to see the effect this will have on MMA and other slayers players
On September 03 2011 02:23 babylon wrote: I guess this makes SlayerS the strongest, deepest team? I mean, you have the argument that IM is the best team in the world, but when they're basically three heavyweights carrying the entire team, I dunno. Whereas SlayerS now has the following:
- CoCa: ZvP specialist who's been improving his other match-ups - Puzzle: strong Protoss all around - Ganzi: TvT specialist, above average TvZ and 1/1/1 TvP - MMA: TvZ specialist, above average TvT, mediocre TvP - Alicia: decent in PvP but lately has been slumping in the Era of 1/1/1 - Ryung: TvT specialist, above average TvZ, mediocre TvP - Taeja: Very strong all around with a focus on TvP and TvT - Boxer: Don't need to explain this one ...
Shame for ZeNEX though. Wonder if they'll fold.
Don't forget Min.
Although arguably one of the weaker SlayerS members, he has had some strong performances, such as in the Super Tournament when he knocked out July and Genius. However, he has had a huge problem with nerves, which has led to some very bad decision-making that has cost him games (notably his games vs theBest in the Super Tournament). Teammates claim that he is a strong player in practice, but is handicapped by nerves.
Man, some of you are serious whiners. You do realize this is how professional (e)-Sports work right? Players move around. They take better deals, they move to other teams. It's a business.
All this talk of nurturing vs. buying, it's bush league. Anyone who follows big money sports realizes you need to do BOTH to build a successful team. You need to nurture some players, you need to buy some players. The best teams in any sport work on the "motivated talent wins" mentality. Whether that talent is homegrown or free agent becomes irrelevant, provided it's motivated talent (which is why you have to do so much personality evaluation before you hand someone millions of dollars).
It's kind of funny, because people hate on EG for signing great players to make themselves better, yet if EG were an NFL team they would be getting (rightly) praised for trying to improve their team.
As I've said in other posts, you guys can't have it both ways. Either you want this to be a professional business and grow, or you don't. Pick one.
On September 03 2011 02:52 Jibba wrote: The NFL has salary caps and tampering rules. It's an entirely different, incomparable situation and your analogy, quite frankly, sucks.
Anyways, awesome news for Slayers. Sad for ZeNEX but FXOBoSs already broke the news about their collapse a while ago.
Baseball doesn't have a salary cap, and it operates the same way. Basketball has soft caps. Soccer has soft caps, what's your point? The point is, players move around. They go where the money is. A team has a responsibility to make their team better. Period.
Just because there isn't enough money changing hands (yet) to need salary caps and agents and all that crap, doesn't mean the situations are different. It simply means the big ticket sports are at a level we aren't yet, but that doesn't mean we don't have to accept the business of things to get there.
Again, you can't have it both ways. Either you want this to be a true professional sport, or you don't, and you want to continue to enforce this strange internet Bushido code of honor on the teams.
People hating on this move need to stay far, far away from the Chinese eSports scene, lest they have an aneurysm. I swear that those players change teams every week. It's a bit chaotic, especially in the DotA department.
On September 03 2011 02:56 Brainling wrote: Again, you can't have it both ways. Either you want this to be a true professional sport, or you don't, and you want to continue to enforce this strange internet Bushido code of honor on the teams.
Tampering and free agency rules exist within all major sports leagues.
It's really not applicable to this situations anyways. Like Milkis said, it's nothing like the EG situations.
SlayerS is looking to be a dominant force... super excited. Stacked and well-balanced, though as a Terran player I'm viewing this as additional training partners to strengthen their T lineup haha!
On September 03 2011 02:56 Brainling wrote: Again, you can't have it both ways. Either you want this to be a true professional sport, or you don't, and you want to continue to enforce this strange internet Bushido code of honor on the teams.
Tampering and free agency rules exist within all major sports leagues.
It's really not applicable to this situations anyways. Like Milkis said, it's nothing like the EG situations.
Totally agree, this is much worse then the EG thing.
On September 02 2011 19:51 HolyArrow wrote: [quote]
This is where we have philosophical differences. I just strongly disagree with the concept of a weak team "buying" their good players instead of nurturing them. I don't like it at all - it just seems kind of cheap to me. On the other hand, I am completely okay with a strong team that nurtured their own players adding more strong players to their roster - they did their part in nurturing their players, and now it's totally acceptable that other players see that team and want to be part of it. I guess the bottom line here is whether or not a team is strong by nurture rather than buying good players. It's the main factor for me, personally. Obviously, this is merely my opinion, and it's not backed by any sort of ethical or moral argument.
They are nurturing their players, in fact puma is teaching a lot to demuslim and huk to incontrol. Look at how much better demuslim has got in just 1 week!
Point is if slayers buy all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time and it will make the scene a boring monopoly. Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc were all in the same team.
Sure, they're now nurturing their players, by using the players that they bought. That doesn't supersede the fact that they had to buy good players for that to even happen, which is, to me, still a huge minus.
The point about SlayerS buying all good players and creating a boring monopoly is moot because... that's not really what's happening. When SlayerS recruits MC, MVP, and Nestea, then you'll have an argument.
not really since if you look at TLPD they already have the n1 protoss Puzzle.
Also to get he best players they have to be willing to leave i doubt nestea and mvp would...
You're using ELO as your measurement. That doesn't really work. Do you also believe Polt to be > MVP, Naya and Life > July and Leenock, cOre > HongUn and HuK, and Gumiho > MMA? MC is still the top Protoss as the only Protoss to win a GSL (let alone twice). ELO has its uses, but it, like any other ranking system, it has its flaws.
With that said, you seem to have contradicted yourself in your last sentence. First you say, "Point is if slayers buys all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time.... Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc. were all in the same team". Then, you say "Also, the best players have to be winning to leave, and I doubt Nestea and MVP would". Yeah. Thus, your worries about SlayerS making a boring monopoly of all the best players are unfounded. Nestea and MVP aren't going anywhere.
Polt is incredibly underrated seems like GSL ST didn't teach u anything
ELO works better then gsl ranking or "who won the most gsls a year ago". MC is playing really bad only has a high score(gsl ranking) since he won 2 gsls some months ago, but is in a huge slump misses easy forcefields, etc. Are u telling me fruitdealer is a awesome player just cause he won gsl ? He is in code A and barely wins some games, same will happen to mc.
About the contradiction not really, i never said most acomplished for each race, i said the best players (like top 10 or top 3 in a matchup TvZ etc).
Puzzle is regarded as the best Protoss by koreans atm. Coca as one of the best zergs and the one with most potential.
Puzzle is regarded as the best protoss yet how much as he won? How consistent has he been over a longer period of time? Seems like the fanbase of SC2 are very quick to hype a player that's been good for a short while, when it's way harder to stay on top for ages. Artosis hypes players left and right and many of them turn out to not be as good or consistent as he and the community was expecting.
Also predicting that MC will slump like Fruitdealer seems like pure bs as MC still got 2nd as IEM and shows good games still. Fruitdealer and MC are in completely different spots atm. MC is still good, has motivation and has been in a slight slump lately, Fruitdealer hasn't been good for a year now and doesn't seem to care much. Your arguments seem weak to me.
You can't forget that we foreigners don't get the full picture. As tastosis have pointed out numerous times, Puzzle is consistently considered one of the best players in the world over in Korea. All we get to see is GSL, obviously the koreans have a more enlightened perspective.
Yet Artosis himself has said that there's not much going on in competitive SC2 in korea beside the GSL, so are people basing this of ladder? I'm not saying he isn't good but the guy i quoted more or less said he was better than MC and that MC will slump in the same way Fruitdealer did. You gotta admit that that is pretty much just bullshit, right?
Lets look at the last 2 seasons of gsl, anything prior to that is kind far away, nasl didn't have the top players except puma,alive and july, iem only had puma, so those aren't a good way to go about it.
Puzzle:
GSL July
Puzzle wins code A by defeating big names like MMA, Tassadar and happy. Didn't lose a single map until the final against Tassadar!
August
Puzzle goes to the playoffs loses to ryung, when he is deciding joining the team of his opponent, you could see how friendly they were after the game. Doubt he was focusing on the game as much as switching teams, so there is always that excuse.
MC:
July
MC loses to a guy with an injured wrist.
August
Goes to up and down. Btw he played awful against fenix on gstl, missing easy force-fields etc .
On September 03 2011 02:23 babylon wrote: I guess this makes SlayerS the strongest, deepest team? I mean, you have the argument that IM is the best team in the world, but when they're basically three heavyweights carrying the entire team, I dunno. Whereas SlayerS now has the following:
- CoCa: ZvP specialist who's been improving his other match-ups - Puzzle: strong Protoss all around - Ganzi: TvT specialist, above average TvZ and 1/1/1 TvP - MMA: TvZ specialist, above average TvT, mediocre TvP - Alicia: decent in PvP but lately has been slumping in the Era of 1/1/1 - Ryung: TvT specialist, above average TvZ, mediocre TvP - Taeja: Very strong all around with a focus on TvP and TvT - Boxer: Don't need to explain this one ...
Shame for ZeNEX though. Wonder if they'll fold.
So basically IM is the SKTT1 of the 08-09 season, and SlayerS is the CJ.
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Haha HolyArrow is the ultimate type of hater. Better start thinking of more clever ways to hate on EG when they inevitably start winning. Oh wait.. theyve already starting to win gogogogogoo
The thing, for me at least, is SlayerS has shown that they have the ability to develop their own players (Min, Ryung, Alicia, MMA) while EG hasn't. It creates this notion that EG is just a weak team that buys success rather than cultivates it themselves.
Edit -
It's also been proven, by Taeja and Ganzi, that players who join SlayerS improve a lot. The opposite can be said for EG and their acquisitions (exception being PuMa and Huk since it's too early).
don't forget alicia. He was just mass gaming and cheesing almost every game before he joined slayers.
On September 02 2011 19:39 HolyArrow wrote: SlayerS = amazing team by international standards picking up great players
EG = pretty bad team by international standards picking up great players
Huge difference.
Agreed.
Bad team picking up good player(s) is good, so they can increase their skill or learn from the good player(s).
Good team picking up good player(s) is bad, so they can kill a team already having a hard time and create a situation where a smaller amount of teams can compete.
Totally agree, this is much worse then the EG thing.
This kind of trolling is so annoying. You don't have the right to take what other people say out of context. It is disrespectful to the people you are quoting and perfectly displays that you don't have a real argument to make. Grow up
Or they're making it better by financially supporting these gosu players Although idk how if slayers offers salaries to their players, I'm sure the housing and practice is superior.
On September 02 2011 19:51 HolyArrow wrote: [quote]
This is where we have philosophical differences. I just strongly disagree with the concept of a weak team "buying" their good players instead of nurturing them. I don't like it at all - it just seems kind of cheap to me. On the other hand, I am completely okay with a strong team that nurtured their own players adding more strong players to their roster - they did their part in nurturing their players, and now it's totally acceptable that other players see that team and want to be part of it. I guess the bottom line here is whether or not a team is strong by nurture rather than buying good players. It's the main factor for me, personally. Obviously, this is merely my opinion, and it's not backed by any sort of ethical or moral argument.
They are nurturing their players, in fact puma is teaching a lot to demuslim and huk to incontrol. Look at how much better demuslim has got in just 1 week!
Point is if slayers buy all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time and it will make the scene a boring monopoly. Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc were all in the same team.
Sure, they're now nurturing their players, by using the players that they bought. That doesn't supersede the fact that they had to buy good players for that to even happen, which is, to me, still a huge minus.
The point about SlayerS buying all good players and creating a boring monopoly is moot because... that's not really what's happening. When SlayerS recruits MC, MVP, and Nestea, then you'll have an argument.
not really since if you look at TLPD they already have the n1 protoss Puzzle.
Also to get he best players they have to be willing to leave i doubt nestea and mvp would...
You're using ELO as your measurement. That doesn't really work. Do you also believe Polt to be > MVP, Naya and Life > July and Leenock, cOre > HongUn and HuK, and Gumiho > MMA? MC is still the top Protoss as the only Protoss to win a GSL (let alone twice). ELO has its uses, but it, like any other ranking system, it has its flaws.
With that said, you seem to have contradicted yourself in your last sentence. First you say, "Point is if slayers buys all the good players then we will be getting a team that wins every time.... Imagine if Flash, jaedong, bisu etc. were all in the same team". Then, you say "Also, the best players have to be winning to leave, and I doubt Nestea and MVP would". Yeah. Thus, your worries about SlayerS making a boring monopoly of all the best players are unfounded. Nestea and MVP aren't going anywhere.
Polt is incredibly underrated seems like GSL ST didn't teach u anything
ELO works better then gsl ranking or "who won the most gsls a year ago". MC is playing really bad only has a high score(gsl ranking) since he won 2 gsls some months ago, but is in a huge slump misses easy forcefields, etc. Are u telling me fruitdealer is a awesome player just cause he won gsl ? He is in code A and barely wins some games, same will happen to mc.
About the contradiction not really, i never said most acomplished for each race, i said the best players (like top 10 or top 3 in a matchup TvZ etc).
Puzzle is regarded as the best Protoss by koreans atm. Coca as one of the best zergs and the one with most potential.
Puzzle is regarded as the best protoss yet how much as he won? How consistent has he been over a longer period of time? Seems like the fanbase of SC2 are very quick to hype a player that's been good for a short while, when it's way harder to stay on top for ages. Artosis hypes players left and right and many of them turn out to not be as good or consistent as he and the community was expecting.
Also predicting that MC will slump like Fruitdealer seems like pure bs as MC still got 2nd as IEM and shows good games still. Fruitdealer and MC are in completely different spots atm. MC is still good, has motivation and has been in a slight slump lately, Fruitdealer hasn't been good for a year now and doesn't seem to care much. Your arguments seem weak to me.
You can't forget that we foreigners don't get the full picture. As tastosis have pointed out numerous times, Puzzle is consistently considered one of the best players in the world over in Korea. All we get to see is GSL, obviously the koreans have a more enlightened perspective.
Yet Artosis himself has said that there's not much going on in competitive SC2 in korea beside the GSL, so are people basing this of ladder? I'm not saying he isn't good but the guy i quoted more or less said he was better than MC and that MC will slump in the same way Fruitdealer did. You gotta admit that that is pretty much just bullshit, right?
Lets look at the last 2 seasons of gsl, anything prior to that is kind far away, nasl didn't have the top players except puma,alive and july, iem only had puma, so those aren't a good way to go about it.
Puzzle:
GSL July
Puzzle wins code A by defeating big names like MMA, Tassadar and happy. Didn't lose a single map until the final against Tassadar!
August
Puzzle goes to the playoffs loses to ryung, when he is deciding joining the team of his opponent, you could see how friendly they were after the game. Doubt he was focusing on the game as much as switching teams, so there is always that excuse.
MC:
July
MC loses to a guy with an injured wrist.
August
Goes to up and down. Btw he played awful against fenix on gstl, missing easy force-fields etc .
Let's start by excluding every season of GSL MC has done well in....
if you start with that premise, yes, you will probably think MC's a bad player, lol.
this is just like football. talented smaller club players get scouted by big clubs and transferred. Nothing new here. we call this esport and this is normal in any sports scene.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.thisisgame.com/board/files/0/img/20110902140141_2dff1108.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://1.2.3.9/bmi/i.imgur.com/greIn.jpg)
