EPT2. roaches rashes on small maps off 1 base seems very strong. too strong maybe?
3. protoss early 4 gate build is alot of good power pushing then maybe killing too good?
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 99
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snowboarding98
Ukraine20 Posts
2. roaches rashes on small maps off 1 base seems very strong. too strong maybe? 3. protoss early 4 gate build is alot of good power pushing then maybe killing too good? | ||
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sekritzzz
1515 Posts
On September 14 2011 12:50 Belial88 wrote: Enough phoenix eventually bypass spores since they can kill a mineral line so fast when energy builds up. 4-6 mutas don't kill workers fast at all, and you can shut them down with static D or unit positioning. A banshee is pretty deadly, but has limited combat application. I don't think any protoss has complained that they can't get enough graviton beam off, and 8 phoenix just can shred an entire mineral line instantly when they've been around and pooled a bit of energy. Making it so you need less phoenix wouldn't be a great change. He didn't get siege tanks... 1-1-1 as an aggressive contain focused on siege tech and banshees with mass marine support is pretty new. I guess that's why the pros have been complaining about 1-1-1 being imbalanced for such a long time. How can you blatantly lie like that? you've been doing it throughout this whole thread and its pissing me off, so I just took 15mins looking for this vid out of my time to prove you wrong. DATE: November 22, 2010, almost one year old. Units Used: Marines, banshee, tanks ONLY with a bunker contain. p.s. Although tester did win this game, it is no where near a good executed 1-1-1 build. Nada made too few scvs throughout the game, he lost 2-3 banshees and didnt have them in the main fight, not to mention he didnt even bring scv's to buffer damage with the allin. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Ozell
Canada105 Posts
There was a time when Terrans didn't knew how to beat Ling bling muta, but they changed their playstyle and TvZ is actually pretty terran favored right now. Protoss need to find new ways of thinking their matchups and Protoss may dominate again. Just look at JYP and how he's using the warp prism in PvZ (and even in PvT) and how good he's at the moment(mostly in ZvP). That said, I think the Marine/tank/banshee all-in is quite hard to hold (read: almost impossible) and therefore, needs to be patched in some way. Though, this doesn't mean the whole matchup is unbalanced. Furthermore, I kinda agree that EMP are kinda dumb right now and need to be fixed in some way. Reducing EMP range seems pretty good since HT's would become way better (But I wonder how that may unbalance ZvT) | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
2, 3 months ago, every zerg was complaining about how Protoss were unbeatable, then guess what, they learned using ling/infestor, bling dropping, mass roach with no hydras, etc. They approached the matchup differently and guess what, it worked pretty well. They were unbeatable. Save for 2 separate 2 week periods in the entire year, Zerg has always been under 50% win rate on ladder up until the infestor buff. Of course ladder %'s don't mean shit, but it's telling that Zerg has been under 50% against protoss until a few weeks after the infestor buff. Infestor/ling wasn't viable before the patch, and baneling dropping, which awesome, is too situational. So Zerg has no way to deal with stalker/colossi/sentry, use baneling rain - but what if they went VR/Colossi, or went heavier on blink stalkers than colossi? You lose. There was a time when Terrans didn't knew how to beat Ling bling muta, but they changed their playstyle and TvZ is actually pretty terran favored right now. Why would you say that? I don't think Terran ever just didn't know marine/tank is good. I think everyone has agreed TvZ has been pretty balanced for the entirety of the match-up. | ||
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Aiurr
Poland80 Posts
Why would you say that? I don't think Terran ever just didn't know marine/tank is good. I think everyone has agreed TvZ has been pretty balanced for the entirety of the match-up. I thought in TvZ, terran is strong in the first 10 minutes, but after that, zerg is just OP... mainly because there is no counter to mass infestors + zerglings/broodlords. | ||
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eugalp
United States203 Posts
They were unbeatable. Save for 2 separate 2 week periods in the entire year, Zerg has always been under 50% win rate on ladder up until the infestor buff. Of course ladder %'s don't mean shit, but it's telling that Zerg has been under 50% against protoss until a few weeks after the infestor buff. Is that true for all regions though? I could be wrong but AFAIK in Korea zergs didn't have a big problem with this matchup. | ||
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beute
Germany197 Posts
On September 15 2011 05:03 Ozell wrote: To me, the game is quite balanced. Zerg and protosses just need to try out new things. 2, 3 months ago, every zerg was complaining about how Protoss were unbeatable, then guess what, they learned using ling/infestor, bling dropping, mass roach with no hydras, etc. They approached the matchup differently and guess what, it worked pretty well. So we agree that we revert all the balance changes that happened between the period protoss(just MC really) "dominated" zerg and now... as as you dont seem to give those changes any credit, claiming zergs learned to beat toss/terran all on their own. If the balance changes didnt contribute to the rise of zergs, then we might as well revert them, I mean, the sole reason why zergs are up there now is because they learned to deal with it on their own right?! That would at least bring back PvT to a more balanced state than it is now, while not having a effect on PvZ.... dont act as if Zergs magically solved those problems all on their own. Many people like to disregard those balance changes and try to force protoss to go through the same phase of "figuring out stuff" like zergs did without any help on blizzards side, yet they dont want to acknowledge that they themselves got buffed numerous times.(while toss and terrans were nerfed) | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
You have to identify why the losses/wins occurred. Zerg was losing because there was no way for them to stop Protoss once they had 4 colossi out. Protoss is now losing a lot because Zerg can brute-force a better economy with a fast third, and that Protoss end-game is more manageable. On September 15 2011 05:26 Aiurr wrote: I thought in TvZ, terran is strong in the first 10 minutes, but after that, zerg is just OP... mainly because there is no counter to mass infestors + zerglings/broodlords. It's not necessarily Terran is strong, it's that a lot of the earlier maps and build times on bunkers made it ridiculous. Holding 2 rax scv-all in on steppes of war when you could wall off with 2 bunkers when it came, what, 10 seconds earlier? was a bit broken. Mass infestor/ling/broodlord is dealt with ghost/tank, or rine/tank/viking, into thor/tank/viking. On even bases it's horribly inefficient. You can just trade on even economy with tank/viking, or use ghosts. On September 15 2011 05:31 eugalp wrote: Is that true for all regions though? I could be wrong but AFAIK in Korea zergs didn't have a big problem with this matchup. http://i.imgur.com/uaVuw.png I don't think ladder really means anything, and this graph doesn't really indicate balance or imbalance. It just shows that Zerg struggled right around until a bit after the infestor patch was released. | ||
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Aiurr
Poland80 Posts
On September 15 2011 06:28 Belial88 wrote: It's not necessarily Terran is strong, it's that a lot of the earlier maps and build times on bunkers made it ridiculous. Holding 2 rax scv-all in on steppes of war when you could wall off with 2 bunkers when it came, what, 10 seconds earlier? was a bit broken. Mass infestor/ling/broodlord is dealt with ghost/tank, or rine/tank/viking, into thor/tank/viking. On even bases it's horribly inefficient. You can just trade on even economy with tank/viking, or use ghosts. infestors counter ghosts, vikings, marines and tanks (and before 1.4 also thors)... and besides, how many ghosts do you need to EMP or snipe 20 infestors? ofc considering that infestors doesn't need overseer to counter ghosts and that overseer will be 50/50 soon enough. infestors + zerglings with transition into broodlords are unstoppable... all vikings will die in 3 fungals (i think fungal needs a nerf that it wouldn't stun air units, only deal damage to them) | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
It's 2 snipes to kill an infestor, at I believe 9 range. EMP has the same range as FG, so that's a micro war, but a ghost takes 3 FG to kill and can EMP while being FG'd. Also, Zerg makes 10+ infestors because they need it, not because it's loliwin. So if you EMP 3 of the infestors, Zerg is at a disadvantage. If you EMP 5 of them, that's quite a few BL's that aren't there, and that's a bunch of deadweight. You can also cloak with ghosts, and snipe out overseers before they are in range. To EMP 20 infestors, you only need 4 EMPs, so 2 ghosts. To snipe them, that's 4 infestors killed per ghost (just like FB on maxed energy HT can kill 4 infestors), so 5 ghosts if you are going to snipe. Considering that ghosts are much cheaper than infestors, this is a great trade. Infestor + zergling will die to marine/siege tank. There's a reason Zerg gets mutas, and going for infestors is like making marauders to counter void rays, your ignoring the problem. You are also much more susceptible to drops, and the Terran can PF the map since you are much slower. IntoTheRainbow regularly crushes Destiny with all sorts of goofy shit, from 2 base battlecruiser to mass bio to ghosts to mech, because he outplays the infestors with how they are countered - by play, not by units. He expands all over due to no map control with mutas, he drops all over due to no mutas, and he puts lots of pressure to force infestors at home. Also, Bl/Infestor/Zergling (you would actually prefer roaches once you got the BL out), is much less cost efficient than Viking/SiegeTank/Marine. If you are on even bases, you still stomp Zerg, as he has to lose an infestor every time he FG's to the siege tanks. With Zerg up a base, you should easily be able to out-macro a Bl/Infestor play and overrun the Zerg, just like if Zerg tried to go 2 base Ultralisk. It sounds like you are just raving, but there is not a single game out there on the pro level where Zerg goes BL/Infestor to an even base Terran and wins. Zerg has either won the game with a 2+ base lead or by winning a huge engagement, or he will get crushed. SiegeTank/Viking/Marine is much cheaper and efficient than BL/Infestor, it's just a great combo that can actually do damage against a lategame Terran when Zerg doesn't need to worry about cost efficiency. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
Yesterday it was held twice, perhaps it was already discussed here but anyway. Both time protoss did what the most anti 111 guide are saying is "bullshit" : catching the terran in the middle of the map unsieged/unprepared. And both times was on xelnaga caverns, the best map to do it. + Show Spoiler + First time Thorzain did it to Huk, 2nd time Puma did it to Mana, both held in the exact same manner even tho it wasn't the exact same variation (more banshees from Puma Perhaps it'll interest people who missed it, vods are on the onemoregame twitch channel, EG vs Mouz. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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cywinr
Canada173 Posts
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On September 15 2011 10:13 MrCon wrote: Just making a little post about 111. Yesterday it was held twice, perhaps it was already discussed here but anyway. Both time protoss did what the most anti 111 guide are saying is "bullshit" : catching the terran in the middle of the map unsieged/unprepared. And both times was on xelnaga caverns, the best map to do it. + Show Spoiler + First time Thorzain did it to Huk, 2nd time Puma did it to Mana, both held in the exact same manner even tho it wasn't the exact same variation (more banshees from Puma Perhaps it'll interest people who missed it, vods are on the onemoregame twitch channel, EG vs Mouz. Thank you so very much. I have been arguing that point since beta, the importance of map control. If you watch BW people actively prowled the map with their units and forced engagements in the middle of the map. Especially against Terran in an attempt to slow down their push towards the opposing base. Using Sim City, Minimal defenses, awareness, and quick reaction in order to defend their mining bases We simply don't see that kind of activeness in SC2. People often deem that kind of play to be risky and would rather bunker in their natural and take a third by the 15 minute mark. I think that this type of tendency is the result of Xelnaga Watch Towers which makes having map awareness a piece of cake. But really in all attack involving tanks. Your dead if Terran is allowed to walk up to your Natural and siege up in perfect positioning. Terran is by far the most position dependent race. By poking at the 1-1-1 push as it moves out you delay and pick at the power of the push. This gives you enough time to build up your forces and Tech in order to completely crush the push. Personally I would like to see alot more immortal with Warp Prism to pick at the tanks while Terran tries to move out. The extra immortal range and the Extra health on the WP will make it a very effective tactic. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On September 15 2011 11:45 cywinr wrote: If Infestor's can't NP massive units, ghosts shouldn't be able to snipe massive units. Fair enough. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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meadbert
United States681 Posts
20 seconds of research time does not sound THAT bad, but it takes an extra 2 chrono boosts to compensate and that represents 50 energy of Protoss's macro mechanic. For reference this would be like increasing the cost of stim by 270 (the cost of mule) or like forcing zerg to use up 8 larva on Metabolic Boost. (2 Injects) Either would be a massive nerf and this is what happened to Protoss. One option is to just not use those chrono boosts on Warp and to a certain degree this is what has happened in PvZ with some FFEs, but in PvT not chronoing Warp is basically not an option because you will die. A second piece of collateral damage was Hallucination. This realistically cannot be researched till after warp, so any delay in warp delays Hallucination by the same amount. I would like to see Hallucination's research time decreased 20 seconds to give protoss scouting options and I would prefer a buff to chrono boost in general because losing those 2 Chrono Boosts really hurts 1-1-1 defense as Chronoing Immortals is so important. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On September 15 2011 10:13 MrCon wrote: Just making a little post about 111. Yesterday it was held twice, perhaps it was already discussed here but anyway. Both time protoss did what the most anti 111 guide are saying is "bullshit" : catching the terran in the middle of the map unsieged/unprepared. And both times was on xelnaga caverns, the best map to do it. + Show Spoiler + First time Thorzain did it to Huk, 2nd time Puma did it to Mana, both held in the exact same manner even tho it wasn't the exact same variation (more banshees from Puma Perhaps it'll interest people who missed it, vods are on the onemoregame twitch channel, EG vs Mouz. Huh? Both Mana and HuK did exactly what all the guides and discussion threads on TL recommended: They took a risky expansion, built up to 4-5 Gates and a Robo, chronoed Immortals, used their army to stall the push, and finally engaged from a wide angle with flanking units. With all that, they still only barely held the attack. MaNa barely held after PuMa supplyblocked himself multiple times, and then had his banshees parked to the side during the main engagement. He still almost won. Huk's hold against Thorzain was more convincing, but he was also very close to losing at multiple points of that game. Both of them would have probably instantly lost had the Terran been doing a reactor first 2 rax. Still, those are pretty much textbook examples of holding that all-in. And it doesn't change the fact that it's overpowered and has a terrible effect on PvT in general. | ||
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HulkHogan
Canada14 Posts
Why would you say that? I don't think Terran ever just didn't know marine/tank is good. I think everyone has agreed TvZ has been pretty balanced for the entirety of the match-up. Not before the hatchery HP buff and the reaper speed changes. It was actually pretty lopsided in Terran's favor. | ||
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