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First off let me say I'm not a "good" player by any standards, I play well and am learning quick but I'm not the best, especially when encountering something I didn't scout for or mis-scouted (scouting is one of my big weaknesses ><). I've been playing well lately and encountered a build that was highlighted and mentioned by Tasteless during GSL3.
So naturally ever since GSL I've been encountering what I believed Tasteless called something similar to his build, if not his build. Very heavy marine play with tanks and a Raven, the Raven throws down a PDD and my stalkers become useless while his tanks shoot up cliffs/etc due to the vision of the Raven. I can't advance against the tanks because with 2-3 of them my units quickly die and his marines are there with stim to back him up. How is P supposed to defend and/or attack against this? Attack the PDD and then pull back so he can put down another and waste energy, then again? Blink? I went Colo and was getting my first when he attacked, didn't have range though had enough to research it (which I should have). In my replay you'll notice I completely fall apart and let my macro disappear when I start getting hit by his assault, I was trying to think quickly as to how and when to attack him and when I did I quickly was destroyed.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/109864-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns
Any tips help, thanks! :D
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Usually, its a bad idea to engage when the Terran lays down a PDD. You can either pick off the PDD with your sentries, or just pull back and ONLY engage when his army is out of the protective range of the PDD. Usually, the build is designed to hit before your colossi has range, so you will be hard pressed to defend against those marines and tanks (sometimes with banshees). Its a hard timing push to stop, I will give you that.
What you can also do is to fake-engage with your stalkers against his army in the middle of the map. With any luck, you can force him to lay down a PDD, and then he either has to wait for the next 100 energy to push, or push with no PDD against your main army. In the first case, that will give you more time to chrono boost your colossi/ range. In the second case, that timing push without PDD is significantly weaker.
(Terrans can do a variation of the push that abuses the PDD more, involving Marines, Tanks, and Banshees + Ravens. Known as the PoltPrime push)
The Terran micro in that game is very important. Your micro in response is even more important. He will try to focus your colossus down with Banshees, kite zealots with marines, and focus stalkers with tanks/ marines. You have to try to defend at your ramp. Once his banshees goes after your colossi, immediately pull them back and have stalkers hit the banshees. When his tanks and marines try to follow, block the ramp with the force field and make him pull his banshees. If he PDDs near the ramp, try to engage in a different position, or force field the ramp, pull back your colossi, and make the stalkers shoot something to deplete the PDD (or use sentries to kill the pdd if its above the ramp).
All you have to do is to hold out until you get Colossus with range. Be smart about your engagement and micro. There isn't really a direct counter to the timing push because it has a deadly mix of units. You should watch NSPGenius vs LiberoPrime in the GSL3 and watch how he holds it off. Notice that even though Genius loses the first battle, he waits patiently and regroups before engaging a second time to finish off Libero's all-in push.
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Any build that has a Raven is the Tasteless build.
Any fast hatch build is the Artosis build.
So, on with my replay nitpick:
-As an alternative to spam selecting your probes and circulating your rally point every tenth of a second, try, MAKING YOUR 9 PYLON ON TIME INSTEAD OF 5 SECONDS LATE. Seriously. Bugs me so bad. You have 200 APM but nothing to show for it. You can have 10 APM and do your build up to this point flawlessly. That combined with your gas steal tells me you're trying to be some kind of super pro. Just stop, man. Play the game effectively instead of trying to emulate crap you see for no reason.
-You need infoz bro. 6 minutes in and you don't know a damned thing. First stalker goes to enemy ramp to scout. Poke his ramp, check his unit count, and see what you can see..
-You built an observer and aren't doing JACK with it. It's just sitting in your base. GO SCOUT.
-At around 9:20 you saw the Raven attack group on the way. You also see tanks coming. This tells you that you need to move out IMMEDIATELY. You can not let this marie/tank/raven ball get to your natural, siege up, lay pdd, and kill you. You must move your army to him, force him to siege up and throw a pdd, and then just back up. Then, when he moves forward again(without PDD now), you engage before he has time to siege up. You walked in after the tanks were sieged at your nat and he just threw down a PDD and you got slaughtered. The proper response was to guardian shield up(use guardian shield, not FF), move in to attack when you see his unsieged tanks moving towards you, and just engage in a battle. You'll win because stalkers + GS beat marines in these numbers, and his siege tanks will be all that's left after they finish sieging up. He won't have PDD because you made him waste it mid map.
-Doesn't matter what you do after the above, you're dead because you lost to the push. GG.
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Hey, I'm not going to spend a lot of time with this since it's not exactly a match-up I know, but the basic strategy / tip I can give against a build with Raven is to park your army outside his nat and fake that you're going to engage, then pull back and force field behind you if necessary. Try to make him waste that PDD. If you manage to do that, then pull back and engage around your natural.
No matter what you do, DON'T wait until he's at your natural and can place a PDD down there, that means you're pretty much guaranteed to lose.
About the composition, you should have a lot of Zealots and try to get charge upgraded quickly, and also have a couple of immortals. Force field his MM so that they can't kite and pick them off with Zealots, focus tanks with Immortals. Sorry again, I don't exactly play P, can't give better advice.
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Please don't get immortals vs. Marine/tank composition. Your immortals will never even make it in range of a tank. The proper response to a marine/tank composition is Zealot/sentry/{HT||Collosus}.
It's ok to get immortals if you already have the robo and will die to an imminent push, but they're hideously ineffective against any army that has a marine buffer.
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Thanks for the info and tips, Panic. I should have fake-engaged him earlier, especially when I saw his forces going across the map and towards me. I honestly wasn't expecting this build at all, I was expecting banshees instead. I chose the wrong time to engage as he was already sieged and ready for me.
@Steve: Thanks for the tips, I understand what you're saying with the APM spam to begin with but I use that time to make sure my hands continue to move fast and effectively, I average about 125-150apm normally in a different game and my timing on my pylon is generally correct. He was playing random so I should have sent my probe out earlier to pylon like you said. If I knew he was terran I would have placed the pylon closer to my base and would have been on time. The reason behind the gas steal was because I noticed he went refinery BEFORE his Barracks even went down, so this signaled he was going a very heavy gas build so I was hoping to delay what I thought would be an evident Starport/Banshee build, especially cloaked.
My scouting as I said definitely does need work, I sent in my probe saw he wasn't going double rax with a gas first build so I left, I should have gone back up with my probe that I had idle at the Xel'naga to see what his composition was like and if I could scout any of his other production facilities. When I got my first obs out I immediately sent it to his base, did you not see that? Unfortunately after scouting for an expo I went trough his front door as his Raven came out, so before I could move my camera back down to his base my obs had died. If you watch my camera I move down to see if I could see what his composition was or to see his buildings that my obs had spotted and saw the factory and starport, so I still thought banshees and my second obs went out to outside/above my natural so I could see if any banshees were on their way to my base. I definitely should have moved out when I saw his force crossing the map though, I didn't think I had a large enough army since I FE'd and didn't have a lot of production structures up.
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When your observer was killed when the Raven popped out, that should really have set off alarms for you. Raven usually means a 1 base timing push for Terrans. You might have wanted to cancel that Nexus and try to boost out a colossus earlier or something.
Why were you trying to fast expand? Usually you throw down a nexus when you are confident you have enough units to defend a 1-base timing, or after you pressure the Terran enough for him to make bunkers and turtle up.
Personally, I think the banshee, marine, raven push is a little scarier, just because Colossi/ Gateway units cant really deal with banshees as well as they do with Marine Tank. In any case, check out the NSPGenius vs LiberoPrime game for crisis management (Genius FE'd as well, but it was cross positions on Metal, so he had more excuse).
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I wasn't looking at my obs when it was killed, so I didn't know or think that it was a raven. I noticed there wasn't a missile turret up but I didn't know if he had scanned to kill it or not (though thinking about it now it is pretty obvious, since I looked down after it had been killed and there wasn't a scan animation going on still.) I agree I should have canceled the nexus and tried to get more out instead, especially the colo.
I was expanding because once again I was expecting banshees. I saw him get fast gas and him taking the time to get his second gas, had both xel'naga towers, and felt comfortable defending against the banshees with obs + stalkers.
He never made a banshee though and I don't remember if I saw him actually begin to make a banshee from the replay.
I definitely do need to watch the Genius vs. LiberoPrime game again though, I remember watching the game and that's where I first saw this build.
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On November 28 2010 14:26 SteveNick wrote:
Any fast hatch build is the Artosis build.
lol
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EPT
