EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 98
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On September 14 2011 12:50 Belial88 wrote: Enough phoenix eventually bypass spores since they can kill a mineral line so fast when energy builds up. 4-6 mutas don't kill workers fast at all, and you can shut them down with static D or unit positioning. A banshee is pretty deadly, but has limited combat application. I don't think any protoss has complained that they can't get enough graviton beam off, and 8 phoenix just can shred an entire mineral line instantly when they've been around and pooled a bit of energy. Making it so you need less phoenix wouldn't be a great change. He didn't get siege tanks... 1-1-1 as an aggressive contain focused on siege tech and banshees with mass marine support is pretty new. I guess that's why the pros have been complaining about 1-1-1 being imbalanced for such a long time. You can say the same thing the other way. Enough spore bypass phoenixes, and you know that phoenixes cost way more than spores right? And why would you just pick 4-6 muta when we explicitly told you that looking at 8 would be more appropriate. And then you say you can shut mutas down with static D, when you can do the exact same thing to phoenixes. And to a greater extent since phoenixes can't kill static D. You seem to tweak the numbers enough to make it seem like your viewpoint still holds up. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Phoenixes in numbers aren't shut down by static D. I mean kind of, but just like mutas they get to a point where they can ignore it/beat it/bypass it and wipe out a mineral line. I mean it's not really a big deal. What you're proposing I don't think is gamebreaking, but it's just odd since I don't think anyone complained that phoenix don't have enough energy , and they rape mineral lines so hardcore once they've pooled energy. With your proposal phoenixes could do that as soon as a certain number popped. Which I guess takes time, so whatever. But just having 4 phoenix out quick, then wiping out a mineral line, that would suck. | ||
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minhbq299
United Kingdom566 Posts
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On September 14 2011 14:33 minhbq299 wrote: This guy, Belial88, seem like a totally biased and idiot kid, who hate protoss and jump at every post people want to discuss normally with his dirty mouth. Seriously even though I am not playing toss, I feel sorry for them having discuss balance with completely ignored kid like you. You said you dont care for T and P balance, why the fuck are you here then. LOL I don't agree actually. He started by making some good points, then people (like you) started the name calling and it degenerated. Besides there seems to be more Protoss players on this thread so it makes it harder to say anything that might suggest that PvZ isn't zerg favoured. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
This guy, Belial88, seem like a totally biased and idiot kid, who hate protoss and jump at every post people want to discuss normally with his dirty mouth. Seriously even though I am not playing toss, I feel sorry for them having discuss balance with completely ignored kid like you. You said you dont care for T and P balance, why the fuck are you here then. LOL Discussing the nuances of Zerg. I don't know what you have to flame for, I'm more than reasonable. I said the phoenix change doesn't sound that horrible, I disagree with it because I've never heard of an issue with phoenixes not having enough energy, but it sounds like it'd do too much damage to start with. If they lowered phoenix starting energy, then it'd be okay. I don't agree actually. He started by making some good points, then people (like you) started the name calling and it degenerated. Besides there seems to be more Protoss players on this thread so it makes it harder to say anything that might suggest that PvZ isn't zerg favoured. Thank you. At heart I'm a Zerg player, so obviously I have some bias, but I'm here to bullshit about starcraft, not start a flame war. I have some strong opinions, but they come with reason. I'm more than willing to change my opinion on anything, but I feel Protoss end-game is too strong, and that the losses they are suffering now are not due to imbalance but rather metagame issues and build order losses, and that none of the losses were in the end-game or with infestors. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On September 14 2011 15:41 Belial88 wrote: Thank you. At heart I'm a Zerg player, so obviously I have some bias, but I'm here to bullshit about starcraft, not start a flame war. I have some strong opinions, but they come with reason. I'm more than willing to change my opinion on anything, but I feel Protoss end-game is too strong, and that the losses they are suffering now are not due to imbalance but rather metagame issues and build order losses, and that none of the losses were in the end-game or with infestors. I feel the same way, but I'll start to regret defending you with sentences like "I'm here to bullshit about starcraft" :p | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
But I think the reason why Terran is overall the best race is because they have all the necessary tools to deal with everything early game, to insure that they will come out ahead at the midgame. They have all the units necessary for defense and harrassment. Let's go over some defensive strategies each race has at early game, i.e. 5-6 minute mark. Protoss: Anti-air: Stalker Anti-armor: Stalker Anti-mass units: sentries(kind of but not really), need collosi or templar tech Anti-cloak: nothing, requires robo Zerg: Anti-air: Queens(need 3 or more) Anti-armor: nothing Anti-mass units: banelings Anti-cloak: nothing Terrans: Anti-air: Marines Anti-armor: Marauders Anti-mass units: Hellions Anti-cloak: scans It becomes quite obvious that terrans are basically impervious to cheese in the early game, or at least very very resilient against cheese compared to the other races. | ||
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scFoX
France454 Posts
On September 14 2011 19:23 neoghaleon55 wrote: I'm not sure if this has been addressed... But I think the reason why Terran is overall the best race is because they have all the necessary tools to deal with everything early game, to insure that they will come out ahead at the midgame. They have all the units necessary for defense and harrassment. Let's go over some defensive strategies each race has at early game, i.e. 5-6 minute mark. Protoss: Anti-air: Stalker Anti-armor: Stalker Anti-mass units: sentries(kind of but not really), need collosi or templar tech Anti-cloak: nothing, requires robo Zerg: Anti-air: Queens(need 3 or more) Anti-armor: nothing Anti-mass units: banelings Anti-cloak: nothing Terrans: Anti-air: Marines Anti-armor: Marauders Anti-mass units: Hellions Anti-cloak: scans It becomes quite obvious that terrans are basically impervious to cheese in the early game, or at least very very resilient against cheese compared to the other races. You are forgetting static defense (turrets/spores/cannons) in terms of detection. Sure, it's not ideal, but it's a sound investment if you see that the opponent is going for cloaked units. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On September 14 2011 10:48 Toadvine wrote: We're not going to get any new harass units before HotS. So, for the time being, why not reduce graviton beam energy cost to 25? Can anyone find any substantial reason for that to be overpowered? I like that idea since phoenix are fun to use anyway  But I think you would need to increase their build time. You can actually get 4 phoenix out pretty fast with some chronoboosts saved. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On September 14 2011 14:10 Belial88 wrote: ^ because 8 mutas is extremely expensive and by the time you get 8 mutas, the opponent will have defenses up. You can at most get 4-6 mutas fast enough before static d or enough marines with stim are out. Phoenixes in numbers aren't shut down by static D. I mean kind of, but just like mutas they get to a point where they can ignore it/beat it/bypass it and wipe out a mineral line. I mean it's not really a big deal. What you're proposing I don't think is gamebreaking, but it's just odd since I don't think anyone complained that phoenix don't have enough energy , and they rape mineral lines so hardcore once they've pooled energy. With your proposal phoenixes could do that as soon as a certain number popped. Which I guess takes time, so whatever. But just having 4 phoenix out quick, then wiping out a mineral line, that would suck. I'm fine with increasing their build time back to what it used to be. It was decreased as a way of making them a better reactionary defense against Mutas, which they aren't especially good at anyway. I feel like Phoenix have an inherent disadvantage (the inability to attack structures and massive units), and both Terran and Zerg have means of combating mass Phoenix effectively, with this change or without it. Amusingly enough, it would also help deal with Infestor woes. Since graviton beam cancels Neural, we could revert the Neural nerf, and instead see cool Phoenix splitting action against Infestors in PvZ, similarly to how Zergs split Mutas against them in ZvZ. That's another thing that's more fun than feedback. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
On September 14 2011 20:44 KimJongChill wrote: So what do we think about marine drops? I'm inclined to think that with their synergy with the dropship, it's way too potent in the late-game. Two spines and 4 banelings per base That's how I survive late game zvt I'm more concerned with marauder drops, but Terran would need to commit at least 2 dropships for those and mutas eat marauders alive late game anyway | ||
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
On September 14 2011 20:44 KimJongChill wrote: So what do we think about marine drops? I'm inclined to think that with their synergy with the dropship, it's way too potent in the late-game. its fine. if anything marine drop is not potent enough given how fast zerg units are moving in sc2. | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
On September 14 2011 10:48 Toadvine wrote: We're not going to get any new harass units before HotS. So, for the time being, why not reduce graviton beam energy cost to 25? Can anyone find any substantial reason for that to be overpowered? 25 energy vs light impossible to use vs massive 50 energy vs anything else -phoenix allready can't kill structures, any static defense deny phoenix, if you put 2 spores/canons/turrets on mineral lines, the phoenix die faster than they can pay for thenselves killing workes, with their small range you don't even need to spread the static defense, just put on the mineral line. -phoenix can't kill marines because of energy, making 25 energy for each marine is going to make stargate a good counterbuild to 1/1/1 -if you haras with then, you can't defend (no energy) and since you have to spend a lot into phoenix to be able to start harassing, you can easily die to a counter attack if you are unable to use then for defense. -25 energy is not going to make phoenix imba vs hydras, you do not attack hydras with less than 1:1 phoenix for each hydra, so energy is not a big deal (numbers are). -corruptors hard counter phoenix, HARD. -vikings are better than phoenix, ( yeah if you test 1 phoenix vs 1 viking, the phoenix get a close win) but in the real game, vikings can get shots off while phoenix need to fly over a marine ball, vikings can zone then out, seriously, 9 range is too much for then. -infestors shut down mass phoenix instantly, TOTAL SHUT DOWN. -ghosts can emp then, making then useless (like sentries and HT), since emp is good vs anything protoss have, you will always have some emp rounds for phoenix. -phoenix x mutas is only in phoenix favor on low numbers, bigger numbers mutas own. the fact that zergs can win a game with only mutas makes them far more massable than phoenix. -stargate becomes far more viable in PvP with this change. -1 thor, deny any mass phoenix harras, just like mutas, but magic box can't help the phoenix against the thor. -immortals should be 5 range, and instead they should buff the phoenix. | ||
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MattyClutch
United States711 Posts
On September 14 2011 14:10 Belial88 wrote: Phoenixes in numbers aren't shut down by static D. I mean kind of, but just like mutas they get to a point where they can ignore it/beat it/bypass it and wipe out a mineral line. What? Care to elaborate? They are relatively fragile and you need to keep the count up. Plus they cannot attack said static D. | ||
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latan
740 Posts
and how stupid is the medivac? by design they pretty much are a must-have (if you go bio), and since you already have it it's easy to use drop tactics from there, with protoss and zerg one has to make their mind to go for drop tactics before building/researching transport. So i think the medivac is a design flaw in the game. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 14 2011 23:57 MattyClutch wrote: What? Care to elaborate? They are relatively fragile and you need to keep the count up. Plus they cannot attack said static D. Plus, have a few infestors and get one fungal on them: bam, Protoss is now officially dead. | ||
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johnny_enlgish
13 Posts
I would like Fungal Growth to be a slowing spell and not prevent any movement. As far as the damage I'm fine if it does 36 or 30 damage. I would also like the Zealot shield to be increased by 10 points like its in SC1. Right now ranged units have too much power over melee because they clump up so tightly and dish out amazing DPS. | ||
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