|
On September 13 2011 11:46 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 10:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 13 2011 10:21 Belial88 wrote:
People stopped doing 3 gate expands in favor of FFE, not because roach/ling all-in is a good counter to it. What happens if the Zerg just throws down a pool first and decides to send out zerglings? Is this a joke? What are you talking about? 6 pool is owned by anything Protoss does, and any pool timing is held off by zealot wall-off. What in the world are you referring to Show nested quote +f you're a progamer and you casually read balance threads but avoid posting just to keep away from attention and drama, could you please take a small amount of your time and tell this guy he is full of shit. You don't need to an asshole. I've reached Masters with both random and Zerg, so I know just a little bit of what I'm talking about. Roach/Ling all-in is easily held off with 3 gate sentry expand.
I wouldn't use the term "easily."
|
^ You have to get a probe around, use a stalker if Zerg didn't open 14/14 (and therefore get quick speed). Yea, it's pretty tough, and yea, it can be completely denied, kind of like Zerg scouting. But cancelling or just holding off on an expo still puts P far ahead of a Zerg who made 7 roaches and possibly even lings.
|
My basic opinion is that no, 1/1/1 is not too strong. Protoss just doesnt have an opening thats safe to both 1/1/1 and 2rax. Neither push is too strong, just the combined threat of them. If you nerf one too much, it means the other also becomes useless, since the Protoss will just open in a manner that always counters the non-nerfed one, and bam you have 2 useless pushes (1 nerfed, and 1 always build countered). The best way to solve the problem is to buff Protoss defense so that both pushes remain scary, but can be dealt with.
|
1. Providing more research avaliable might make the game more exciting and provide paths for gamers. I feel that there's only a few spells that you have to research for units in SC2 and most of the casters in SC2 come with a spell or two.
Ghost, you only research cloak while it comes with snipe and emp.
Raven, you only research seeker missile
Sentry, you only research halluination
Infestor, you only research neural parasite
Now, we can see the pattern here, these spells that require research is probably secondary spells that you don't really necessary need. Whereas the core spells are already there for you so its not as surprising to why these secondary are not use as much.
Sometimes, in the SC2 prequel game, you seen player specifically research spell such as EMP, Irrirate, Stasis for a certain matchup he/she is facing.
2. To get rid of useless upgrade, the only one I can think of it the Hydra range upgrade
|
Too much protoss talk atm lets go back to terran <:
Who else thinks marines are a bit too good in every matchup? They scale quite well and ball very tightly to do insane dps, in zvt and tvp we are seeing more marine heavy armys because marines with medivacs rape gateway armys pretty cost effeciently and let terrans get ghosts faster. In zvt its a bit more balanced because of banelings and creep but when the upgrades start getting piled on marines they become a walking wrecking ball, they can fight lings, roaches mutas and hydras very easily and can kill expos pretty quickly. Drops also get pretty ridiculous to deal with as zerg or protoss because of how effective marines are against small forces. Getting into lategame as well if terran and zerg exchange armys, reactors can remake marines at a frightening pace. Pretty much any expo without something silly like 3 cannons or spines can get taken out by a force of 8 marines.
Part of the reason they are so good now is because they have extra health now and a free range upgrade but the other reason is that now that dropships dont need room for medics more marines can be held and their damage output increases tremendously. Medivacs heal at a fast rate and make dealing with marines between minerals pretty annoying for both races.
I would suggest lowering the marine ROF just slightly.
|
^ No, I don't think marines are a problem. They are very versatile, but extremely weak. Chargelots or zealot/sentry handles them easily, they are weak without stim, equal supply lings catching them in the open destroys them. They are just like infestors, they are very versatile but have extreme vulnerabilties, as in certain very possible situations they get completely raped as opposed to just made a little less effective (ie HT or ghosts completely nullifying infestors, colossi/storm completely nullifying marines without support).
Marines on their own are horrible in ZvT, we only saw that baneling vs marine shenanigans with 'bad' zergs who made less than 45 drones and went pure baneling (lol) instead of ling/bane. Speedlings just rape marines in the open for both cost and supply when they aren't supported. Drops are fine, they cost a lot for terran and zerg can shut them down easily with 2-3 banes per expo and a few spines, queens or lings/roaches. Protoss can warp-in. And while reactors can remake marines, terran has to make all those rax, which leaves terran vulnerable and takes a lot of time (as well as APM).
|
On September 13 2011 15:21 Belial88 wrote:
^ No, I don't think marines are a problem. They are very versatile, but extremely weak. Chargelots or zealot/sentry handles them easily, they are weak without stim, equal supply lings catching them in the open destroys them. They are just like infestors, they are very versatile but have extreme vulnerabilties, as in certain very possible situations they get completely raped as opposed to just made a little less effective (ie HT or ghosts completely nullifying infestors, colossi/storm completely nullifying marines without support).
Marines on their own are horrible in ZvT, we only saw that baneling vs marine shenanigans with 'bad' zergs who made less than 45 drones and went pure baneling (lol) instead of ling/bane. Speedlings just rape marines in the open for both cost and supply when they aren't supported. Drops are fine, they cost a lot for terran and zerg can shut them down easily with 2-3 banes per expo and a few spines, queens or lings/roaches. Protoss can warp-in. And while reactors can remake marines, terran has to make all those rax, which leaves terran vulnerable and takes a lot of time (as well as APM).
you are out of your mind if you really believe templar "completely nullify" infestors.
|
MC isn't as good because he got a girlfriend.
User was warned for this post
|
On September 13 2011 11:10 naventus wrote:
Conc is practically useless. It was too good when it could be used for cheese, but now marauder is really not super important early, and there are few types of engagements where it really shines.
This statement obviously made by someone who doesn't play protoss. Conc shells are the most OP thing I've ever seen. They render all gateway units practically useless right off the bat (when you can kite stalkers, you know something is broken). Un-charge zeals become worthless when conc shells are in play, which is like, before terran even have their orbital up.
50/50 is waaaay too cheap for that upgrade. Combined with stim, it makes marauders my least favourite terran unit to have to deal with in the early-mid game.
|
On September 14 2011 00:06 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 11:10 naventus wrote:
Conc is practically useless. It was too good when it could be used for cheese, but now marauder is really not super important early, and there are few types of engagements where it really shines. This statement obviously made by someone who doesn't play protoss. Conc shells are the most OP thing I've ever seen. They render all gateway units practically useless right off the bat (when you can kite stalkers, you know something is broken). Un-charge zeals become worthless when conc shells are in play, which is like, before terran even have their orbital up. 50/50 is waaaay too cheap for that upgrade. Combined with stim, it makes marauders my least favourite terran unit to have to deal with in the early-mid game.
Can we try to discuss without resorting to idiotic hyperboles? "Most OP thing I've seen", "render all gateway units practically useless", if you actually believe this crap then you really have no place to be discussing balance in the first place.
The only thing conc rushes can do is punish a greedy protoss opener. Besides that properly controlled gateway units have no trouble fighting off marauders in the early-midgame.
|
If by greedy protoss opener, you mean they step outside their base at all, then yes it does. I don't agree that it's the most OP thing ever, but it's really strong for how cheap and early you can get it
|
Concussive Shells isn't overpowered, it's just stupid as hell and makes the game a lot less fun than it could have been otherwise. Just like Forcefield and Fungal, in fact, but at least you have to cast those. CS you just research, and can instantly kite everything without lifting a finger.
|
On September 13 2011 11:46 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 10:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 13 2011 10:21 Belial88 wrote:
People stopped doing 3 gate expands in favor of FFE, not because roach/ling all-in is a good counter to it. What happens if the Zerg just throws down a pool first and decides to send out zerglings? Is this a joke? What are you talking about? 6 pool is owned by anything Protoss does, and any pool timing is held off by zealot wall-off. What in the world are you referring to Show nested quote +f you're a progamer and you casually read balance threads but avoid posting just to keep away from attention and drama, could you please take a small amount of your time and tell this guy he is full of shit. You don't need to an asshole. I've reached Masters with both random and Zerg, so I know just a little bit of what I'm talking about. Roach/Ling all-in is easily held off with 3 gate sentry expand.
Hmm.. Belial again.
Much of what you are saying is misinformation, yet again. I took the time to see if you really knew what you were talking about, considering your sweeping comments.
I remember you saying you just reached rank 1 masters.
Is this you? http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1584798/Belial
You don't look like a rank 1 Masters player to me. In addition - you have mentioned that you reached Masters with Random before switching to Zerg. It appears you just got promoted to Masters on 9/7/11 as Zerg. This is less than a week ago. In addition, you are listed as a Diamond-level Player last season, as Zerg.
You mention being Masters Random as well, though I have seen you post elsewhere that you have no knowledge of PvT and don't know if 1-1-1 is imbalanced. You do not sound like someone who is a Masters Random player. All your posts indicate you are 100% Zerg Player who recently got promoted to Masters.
Do you mind presenting a link to your random Master's Random Account?
Master's Random players don't say "3 Gate Sentry Expand OWNS Roach-Ling timings." They know both sides of the coin. You do not.
I am genuinely worried that you are simply lying at this point.
If you are not a random Masters player, then please do not preface your posts with "I play Random at Masters level, so I know a thing or two..." when you're a freshly promoted Diamond Zerg.
|
On September 14 2011 01:52 Toadvine wrote:
Concussive Shells isn't overpowered, it's just stupid as hell and makes the game a lot less fun than it could have been otherwise. Just like Forcefield and Fungal, in fact, but at least you have to cast those. CS you just research, and can instantly kite everything without lifting a finger.
Thr problem is not concusive shells, it is concusive shells + stimpack, a speed boost + a snare really seem overkill to me.
Also dont forget that you make sentries and infestors only for fungals and FF, you make marauders for their damage against armor coupled with their HP and no cooldown concusive shells.
|
On September 13 2011 14:14 JosephFoU wrote:
1. Providing more research avaliable might make the game more exciting and provide paths for gamers. I feel that there's only a few spells that you have to research for units in SC2 and most of the casters in SC2 come with a spell or two.
Ghost, you only research cloak while it comes with snipe and emp.
Raven, you only research seeker missile
Sentry, you only research halluination
Infestor, you only research neural parasite
Now, we can see the pattern here, these spells that require research is probably secondary spells that you don't really necessary need. Whereas the core spells are already there for you so its not as surprising to why these secondary are not use as much.
Sometimes, in the SC2 prequel game, you seen player specifically research spell such as EMP, Irrirate, Stasis for a certain matchup he/she is facing.
This.
I've always felt in SC2 there isn't "unit specialization". I mean, in BW to make science vessel (more) useful you had to research irradiate/emp, so you needed to put some resources in upgrading a specific unit. In SC2 you just build the tech structure and research a secondary spell (HSM is a secondary spell in comparison to PDD), while in BW you had to research the primary spells.
|
I really think the problem with PvT is how hard it is to deal with supported Marines (usually by tanks) without last tier tech...
A +light range unit in the TC or Robo would really help in HotS or right now a way to get one tech a lot faster (either Charge or swap storm and feedback, the collosus path is fine imo otherwise it would make PvZ pretty imbalanced)
|
On September 13 2011 14:44 T0fuuu wrote:
Too much protoss talk atm lets go back to terran <:
Who else thinks marines are a bit too good in every matchup? They scale quite well and ball very tightly to do insane dps, in zvt and tvp we are seeing more marine heavy armys because marines with medivacs rape gateway armys pretty cost effeciently and let terrans get ghosts faster. In zvt its a bit more balanced because of banelings and creep but when the upgrades start getting piled on marines they become a walking wrecking ball, they can fight lings, roaches mutas and hydras very easily and can kill expos pretty quickly. Drops also get pretty ridiculous to deal with as zerg or protoss because of how effective marines are against small forces. Getting into lategame as well if terran and zerg exchange armys, reactors can remake marines at a frightening pace. Pretty much any expo without something silly like 3 cannons or spines can get taken out by a force of 8 marines.
Part of the reason they are so good now is because they have extra health now and a free range upgrade but the other reason is that now that dropships dont need room for medics more marines can be held and their damage output increases tremendously. Medivacs heal at a fast rate and make dealing with marines between minerals pretty annoying for both races.
I would suggest lowering the marine ROF just slightly.
Marines are good because terrans are the only race who goes fast 3-3, so we often see 3-3 marines vs 1-1 *other stuff like lings, mutas (well, 1-0 mutas more often), zealots*, and in these situations the marines are melting everything.
I guess it's because 3-3 only need an armory while it require hive for zerg.
But some zergs have now fast 2-2 -> 3-3 builds that works well vs terran, those builds have even faster upgrades than the terran ones, and it works pretty well.
|
Russian Federation798 Posts
On September 13 2011 14:44 T0fuuu wrote:
Too much protoss talk atm lets go back to terran <:
Who else thinks marines are a bit too good in every matchup? They scale quite well and ball very tightly to do insane dps, in zvt and tvp we are seeing more marine heavy armys because marines with medivacs rape gateway armys pretty cost effeciently and let terrans get ghosts faster. In zvt its a bit more balanced because of banelings and creep but when the upgrades start getting piled on marines they become a walking wrecking ball, they can fight lings, roaches mutas and hydras very easily and can kill expos pretty quickly. Drops also get pretty ridiculous to deal with as zerg or protoss because of how effective marines are against small forces. Getting into lategame as well if terran and zerg exchange armys, reactors can remake marines at a frightening pace. Pretty much any expo without something silly like 3 cannons or spines can get taken out by a force of 8 marines.
Part of the reason they are so good now is because they have extra health now and a free range upgrade but the other reason is that now that dropships dont need room for medics more marines can be held and their damage output increases tremendously. Medivacs heal at a fast rate and make dealing with marines between minerals pretty annoying for both races.
I would suggest lowering the marine ROF just slightly.
We go marines because everything else sucks. Its incredible difficult going mech or even pure marauder vs protoss. Its either marines or nothing. And nerfing a unit like the marine (backbone of the terran army) is going to do massive damage in all match ups and builds.
|
On September 14 2011 03:20 fishinguy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 14:44 T0fuuu wrote:
Too much protoss talk atm lets go back to terran <:
Who else thinks marines are a bit too good in every matchup? They scale quite well and ball very tightly to do insane dps, in zvt and tvp we are seeing more marine heavy armys because marines with medivacs rape gateway armys pretty cost effeciently and let terrans get ghosts faster. In zvt its a bit more balanced because of banelings and creep but when the upgrades start getting piled on marines they become a walking wrecking ball, they can fight lings, roaches mutas and hydras very easily and can kill expos pretty quickly. Drops also get pretty ridiculous to deal with as zerg or protoss because of how effective marines are against small forces. Getting into lategame as well if terran and zerg exchange armys, reactors can remake marines at a frightening pace. Pretty much any expo without something silly like 3 cannons or spines can get taken out by a force of 8 marines.
Part of the reason they are so good now is because they have extra health now and a free range upgrade but the other reason is that now that dropships dont need room for medics more marines can be held and their damage output increases tremendously. Medivacs heal at a fast rate and make dealing with marines between minerals pretty annoying for both races.
I would suggest lowering the marine ROF just slightly. We go marines because everything else sucks. Its incredible difficult going mech or even pure marauder vs protoss. Its either marines or nothing. And nerfing a unit like the marine (backbone of the terran army) is going to do massive damage in all match ups and builds.
Really? Every other Terran unit sucks? Oh.... I didn't know that.
|
I stopped playing as random before 1-1-1, so I don't discuss pvt. Was rank 1 master, now playing on PTR. When promoted, I had been playing random (listed as Zerg for season before). So never fear QTIP, because god forbid you ever address my arguments rather than focus on the person saying it.
Glad to know baneling drops still work then. It's not me spreading misinformation, it's me spreading something that was all over reddit and the forums, and was 'confirmed' until just ago.
edit: and actually I don't think 111 is imbalanced, but since i dont really have any interesting to say about it and since i dont care about tvp, I just avoid the conversation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
