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On September 13 2011 06:42 Aiurr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 09:54 TENTHST wrote:
1) Marine - 2.25
2) Marauder - 2.25
3) Unsieged Siege Tank - 2.25
4) Medivac - 2.5
5) Ghost - 2.25
6) Raven - 2.25
7) Thor - 1.88
8) Viking in air - 2.75
9) Banshee - 2.75
Notice how most of the core units have move speeds between 2.25 and 2.75? This means the Terran player can have a 1 army hot-key of Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts/Tanks/Viking (a typical composition when playing versus Protoss), and tab through categories, without ever having to worry about a single unit type reaching the battle before the rest of the group.
Now let's take a look at the core units for a basic Protoss and Zerg army:
1) Zealot with Charge- 2.75
2) Stalker - 2.95
3) Sentry - 2.25
4) High Templar - 1.88
5) Colossus - 2.25
6) Immortal - 2.25
7) Dark Templar - 2.81
8) Phoenix - 4.25
9) Void Ray - 2.25
ok so lets make it straight... you think that marauders with the speed of stalkers would make it harder for terran? also, I want to throw in my 2 cents regarding "terran being the most forgiving race because they can drop supply depots and drop 6 mules at a time if they forgot to do it earlier" so... yeaaa but it works only in the bronzish leagues... it's the same as if I said that zerg is forgiving because you can rebuild workers 14 at a time from 2 hatcheries after you get harassed... zerg is forgiving because after getting all your army killed and workers, they need like 2 minutes of peace to get back where they were... I think the game is pretty much well balanced, but I'd just change corruptors, collosi, reapers and hellions for something else...
terran is the most forgiving race, there is nothing to argue here.
&
droping 6 mules work in grandmasters too...
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On September 13 2011 07:05 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 06:42 Aiurr wrote:On August 16 2011 09:54 TENTHST wrote:
1) Marine - 2.25
2) Marauder - 2.25
3) Unsieged Siege Tank - 2.25
4) Medivac - 2.5
5) Ghost - 2.25
6) Raven - 2.25
7) Thor - 1.88
8) Viking in air - 2.75
9) Banshee - 2.75
Notice how most of the core units have move speeds between 2.25 and 2.75? This means the Terran player can have a 1 army hot-key of Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts/Tanks/Viking (a typical composition when playing versus Protoss), and tab through categories, without ever having to worry about a single unit type reaching the battle before the rest of the group.
Now let's take a look at the core units for a basic Protoss and Zerg army:
1) Zealot with Charge- 2.75
2) Stalker - 2.95
3) Sentry - 2.25
4) High Templar - 1.88
5) Colossus - 2.25
6) Immortal - 2.25
7) Dark Templar - 2.81
8) Phoenix - 4.25
9) Void Ray - 2.25
ok so lets make it straight... you think that marauders with the speed of stalkers would make it harder for terran? also, I want to throw in my 2 cents regarding "terran being the most forgiving race because they can drop supply depots and drop 6 mules at a time if they forgot to do it earlier" so... yeaaa but it works only in the bronzish leagues... it's the same as if I said that zerg is forgiving because you can rebuild workers 14 at a time from 2 hatcheries after you get harassed... zerg is forgiving because after getting all your army killed and workers, they need like 2 minutes of peace to get back where they were... I think the game is pretty much well balanced, but I'd just change corruptors, collosi, reapers and hellions for something else... terran is the most forgiving race, there is nothing to argue here. & droping 6 mules work in grandmasters too...
Let me try to argue with you then.
Terran is the most "forgiving" race when it comes to
-calling down mules
-getting supply blocked
-scanning
PERIOD
This does not mean that Terran is the most forgiving race in general, or in macro even, since we have directly said nothing about
-unit control
-unit production
Which are some key elements in the game.
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On September 13 2011 07:05 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 06:42 Aiurr wrote:On August 16 2011 09:54 TENTHST wrote:
1) Marine - 2.25
2) Marauder - 2.25
3) Unsieged Siege Tank - 2.25
4) Medivac - 2.5
5) Ghost - 2.25
6) Raven - 2.25
7) Thor - 1.88
8) Viking in air - 2.75
9) Banshee - 2.75
Notice how most of the core units have move speeds between 2.25 and 2.75? This means the Terran player can have a 1 army hot-key of Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts/Tanks/Viking (a typical composition when playing versus Protoss), and tab through categories, without ever having to worry about a single unit type reaching the battle before the rest of the group.
Now let's take a look at the core units for a basic Protoss and Zerg army:
1) Zealot with Charge- 2.75
2) Stalker - 2.95
3) Sentry - 2.25
4) High Templar - 1.88
5) Colossus - 2.25
6) Immortal - 2.25
7) Dark Templar - 2.81
8) Phoenix - 4.25
9) Void Ray - 2.25
ok so lets make it straight... you think that marauders with the speed of stalkers would make it harder for terran? also, I want to throw in my 2 cents regarding "terran being the most forgiving race because they can drop supply depots and drop 6 mules at a time if they forgot to do it earlier" so... yeaaa but it works only in the bronzish leagues... it's the same as if I said that zerg is forgiving because you can rebuild workers 14 at a time from 2 hatcheries after you get harassed... zerg is forgiving because after getting all your army killed and workers, they need like 2 minutes of peace to get back where they were... I think the game is pretty much well balanced, but I'd just change corruptors, collosi, reapers and hellions for something else... terran is the most forgiving race, there is nothing to argue here. & droping 6 mules work in grandmasters too...
Yea, I ment the supply drops ;]
I just do not see how it is unforgiveable big deal to forget building supplies for other races that it makes terran so easy as you say... zerg will just save his larva for later and protoss can just build more gates... have you ever seen protoss build only as many gates as it is possible to maintain constant production from? No, they get gates to make more units at the same time, for example after being supply blocked or when attacked. So I do not think supply drops are making terran easier.
As for mules, I agree they should have a cooldown on them, so you can't just drop more than 1 from one command center. But mules are necessery for terran to keep up with macro..., without them, every mineral line harassment would be unrecoverable for terran... you lose 3 SCVs and you are 1 minute behing incomewise and without mules you will never get back, while zerg can rebuild almost any number of drones and protoss just chronoboost them... protoss units are not building so slow that you could say "chronoboost used on probes is a waste"...
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On September 13 2011 07:10 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 07:05 rpgalon wrote:On September 13 2011 06:42 Aiurr wrote:On August 16 2011 09:54 TENTHST wrote:
1) Marine - 2.25
2) Marauder - 2.25
3) Unsieged Siege Tank - 2.25
4) Medivac - 2.5
5) Ghost - 2.25
6) Raven - 2.25
7) Thor - 1.88
8) Viking in air - 2.75
9) Banshee - 2.75
Notice how most of the core units have move speeds between 2.25 and 2.75? This means the Terran player can have a 1 army hot-key of Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts/Tanks/Viking (a typical composition when playing versus Protoss), and tab through categories, without ever having to worry about a single unit type reaching the battle before the rest of the group.
Now let's take a look at the core units for a basic Protoss and Zerg army:
1) Zealot with Charge- 2.75
2) Stalker - 2.95
3) Sentry - 2.25
4) High Templar - 1.88
5) Colossus - 2.25
6) Immortal - 2.25
7) Dark Templar - 2.81
8) Phoenix - 4.25
9) Void Ray - 2.25
ok so lets make it straight... you think that marauders with the speed of stalkers would make it harder for terran? also, I want to throw in my 2 cents regarding "terran being the most forgiving race because they can drop supply depots and drop 6 mules at a time if they forgot to do it earlier" so... yeaaa but it works only in the bronzish leagues... it's the same as if I said that zerg is forgiving because you can rebuild workers 14 at a time from 2 hatcheries after you get harassed... zerg is forgiving because after getting all your army killed and workers, they need like 2 minutes of peace to get back where they were... I think the game is pretty much well balanced, but I'd just change corruptors, collosi, reapers and hellions for something else... terran is the most forgiving race, there is nothing to argue here. & droping 6 mules work in grandmasters too... Let me try to argue with you then. Terran is the most "forgiving" race when it comes to -calling down mules -getting supply blocked -scanning PERIOD This does not mean that Terran is the most forgiving race in general, or in macro even, since we have directly said nothing about -unit control -unit production Which are some key elements in the game.
how do you produce units?, with minerals...
how do you get minerals svc´s ( never forget to make workers )... oops call down mules?...
get it...
you lose 3 SCVs and you are 1 minute behing incomewise and without mules you will never get back, while zerg can rebuild almost any number of drones and protoss just chronoboost them... protoss units are not building so slow that you could say "chronoboost used on probes is a waste"...
CB on probe -3 second creation time per probe , energy gain around 1.1~ something per ingame second ... so 3 scvs lost = 51 ingame second recreation time , 3 probes lost = 42 seconds ingame around that which means if you take 3 minutes to recover that means 300 seconds for terran and 270 seconds ingame for protoss ingame... look at that margin and then look at the mineral gain per mule >_>
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On September 13 2011 07:05 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 06:42 Aiurr wrote:On August 16 2011 09:54 TENTHST wrote:
1) Marine - 2.25
2) Marauder - 2.25
3) Unsieged Siege Tank - 2.25
4) Medivac - 2.5
5) Ghost - 2.25
6) Raven - 2.25
7) Thor - 1.88
8) Viking in air - 2.75
9) Banshee - 2.75
Notice how most of the core units have move speeds between 2.25 and 2.75? This means the Terran player can have a 1 army hot-key of Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts/Tanks/Viking (a typical composition when playing versus Protoss), and tab through categories, without ever having to worry about a single unit type reaching the battle before the rest of the group.
Now let's take a look at the core units for a basic Protoss and Zerg army:
1) Zealot with Charge- 2.75
2) Stalker - 2.95
3) Sentry - 2.25
4) High Templar - 1.88
5) Colossus - 2.25
6) Immortal - 2.25
7) Dark Templar - 2.81
8) Phoenix - 4.25
9) Void Ray - 2.25
ok so lets make it straight... you think that marauders with the speed of stalkers would make it harder for terran? also, I want to throw in my 2 cents regarding "terran being the most forgiving race because they can drop supply depots and drop 6 mules at a time if they forgot to do it earlier" so... yeaaa but it works only in the bronzish leagues... it's the same as if I said that zerg is forgiving because you can rebuild workers 14 at a time from 2 hatcheries after you get harassed... zerg is forgiving because after getting all your army killed and workers, they need like 2 minutes of peace to get back where they were... I think the game is pretty much well balanced, but I'd just change corruptors, collosi, reapers and hellions for something else... terran is the most forgiving race, there is nothing to argue here. & droping 6 mules work in grandmasters too...
they drop 6 mules not because they forgot to use the energy.
they did it because they no longer needs the scan
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On September 13 2011 07:15 terror-eu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 07:10 Techno wrote:On September 13 2011 07:05 rpgalon wrote:On September 13 2011 06:42 Aiurr wrote:On August 16 2011 09:54 TENTHST wrote:
1) Marine - 2.25
2) Marauder - 2.25
3) Unsieged Siege Tank - 2.25
4) Medivac - 2.5
5) Ghost - 2.25
6) Raven - 2.25
7) Thor - 1.88
8) Viking in air - 2.75
9) Banshee - 2.75
Notice how most of the core units have move speeds between 2.25 and 2.75? This means the Terran player can have a 1 army hot-key of Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts/Tanks/Viking (a typical composition when playing versus Protoss), and tab through categories, without ever having to worry about a single unit type reaching the battle before the rest of the group.
Now let's take a look at the core units for a basic Protoss and Zerg army:
1) Zealot with Charge- 2.75
2) Stalker - 2.95
3) Sentry - 2.25
4) High Templar - 1.88
5) Colossus - 2.25
6) Immortal - 2.25
7) Dark Templar - 2.81
8) Phoenix - 4.25
9) Void Ray - 2.25
ok so lets make it straight... you think that marauders with the speed of stalkers would make it harder for terran? also, I want to throw in my 2 cents regarding "terran being the most forgiving race because they can drop supply depots and drop 6 mules at a time if they forgot to do it earlier" so... yeaaa but it works only in the bronzish leagues... it's the same as if I said that zerg is forgiving because you can rebuild workers 14 at a time from 2 hatcheries after you get harassed... zerg is forgiving because after getting all your army killed and workers, they need like 2 minutes of peace to get back where they were... I think the game is pretty much well balanced, but I'd just change corruptors, collosi, reapers and hellions for something else... terran is the most forgiving race, there is nothing to argue here. & droping 6 mules work in grandmasters too... Let me try to argue with you then. Terran is the most "forgiving" race when it comes to -calling down mules -getting supply blocked -scanning PERIOD This does not mean that Terran is the most forgiving race in general, or in macro even, since we have directly said nothing about -unit control -unit production Which are some key elements in the game. how do you produce units?, with minerals... how do you get minerals svc´s ( never forget to make workers )... oops call down mules?... get it...
I said directly, son. Now sit down and stop talking about mother fucking mules. Seriously. No one worth a shit gives a shit about mules.
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On September 13 2011 07:15 terror-eu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 07:10 Techno wrote:On September 13 2011 07:05 rpgalon wrote:On September 13 2011 06:42 Aiurr wrote:On August 16 2011 09:54 TENTHST wrote:
1) Marine - 2.25
2) Marauder - 2.25
3) Unsieged Siege Tank - 2.25
4) Medivac - 2.5
5) Ghost - 2.25
6) Raven - 2.25
7) Thor - 1.88
8) Viking in air - 2.75
9) Banshee - 2.75
Notice how most of the core units have move speeds between 2.25 and 2.75? This means the Terran player can have a 1 army hot-key of Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts/Tanks/Viking (a typical composition when playing versus Protoss), and tab through categories, without ever having to worry about a single unit type reaching the battle before the rest of the group.
Now let's take a look at the core units for a basic Protoss and Zerg army:
1) Zealot with Charge- 2.75
2) Stalker - 2.95
3) Sentry - 2.25
4) High Templar - 1.88
5) Colossus - 2.25
6) Immortal - 2.25
7) Dark Templar - 2.81
8) Phoenix - 4.25
9) Void Ray - 2.25
ok so lets make it straight... you think that marauders with the speed of stalkers would make it harder for terran? also, I want to throw in my 2 cents regarding "terran being the most forgiving race because they can drop supply depots and drop 6 mules at a time if they forgot to do it earlier" so... yeaaa but it works only in the bronzish leagues... it's the same as if I said that zerg is forgiving because you can rebuild workers 14 at a time from 2 hatcheries after you get harassed... zerg is forgiving because after getting all your army killed and workers, they need like 2 minutes of peace to get back where they were... I think the game is pretty much well balanced, but I'd just change corruptors, collosi, reapers and hellions for something else... terran is the most forgiving race, there is nothing to argue here. & droping 6 mules work in grandmasters too... Let me try to argue with you then. Terran is the most "forgiving" race when it comes to -calling down mules -getting supply blocked -scanning PERIOD This does not mean that Terran is the most forgiving race in general, or in macro even, since we have directly said nothing about -unit control -unit production Which are some key elements in the game. how do you produce units?, with minerals... how do you get minerals svc´s ( never forget to make workers )... oops call down mules?... get it...
no you don't get it... if terran will forget about producing units he will lose, while zerg and protoss can build as much as they want instantly... terran can't just "queue" units as that guy said because it is also a pretty much best way to lose the game. As a terran you must have a perfect number of production facilities and produce of them constantly as much as you have income. This is how terran is not forgivable race. Even if you save up 4k minerals from mules, you won't spend it in 30 seconds like zerg or protoss.
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United States7483 Posts
Balance discussion thread right? Uh...
Nerf Terran, buff Protoss, slightly buff Zerg.
Kk, thank you!
Oh specifics? Gateway units need to be stronger, probably should give them more benefits from upgrades. Charge needs a shorter research time and should be 150/150 not 200/200. Give void rays their 7 range back or put the speed upgrade back in the game (or decrease their cost to 200/150). Increase carrier armor and reduce carrier build time to make it a viable tech path. Kaydarin amulet should be put back in the game as an upgrade that increases the rate at which high templar gain energy instead of being an upgrade that increases starting energy.
Hydralisks should receive either a damage buff or a damage nerf and a cost decrease and be made a one supply unit. Change Hydralisk's type to Biological, it should not be light (It's bigger than an effing marauder man -_-). Remove burrow move from infestors, they should not be a harass unit on their own as well. Allow them to neural parasite massive units, but not psionic, and give ultralisks a slight buff to damage, and give them an ability to take reduced damage from area of effect attacks like siege tanks in siege mode, storm, and similar abilities. Give corrupters some additional range and make corruption activate passively on whatever they attack with a short duration.
Add 25 gas to the cost of making hellions, reduce income from MULES to 200 per MULE instead of 270, increase cost of researching concussive shells and stim to 100/100 and 150/150 respectively.
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On September 13 2011 07:10 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 07:05 rpgalon wrote:On September 13 2011 06:42 Aiurr wrote:On August 16 2011 09:54 TENTHST wrote:
1) Marine - 2.25
2) Marauder - 2.25
3) Unsieged Siege Tank - 2.25
4) Medivac - 2.5
5) Ghost - 2.25
6) Raven - 2.25
7) Thor - 1.88
8) Viking in air - 2.75
9) Banshee - 2.75
Notice how most of the core units have move speeds between 2.25 and 2.75? This means the Terran player can have a 1 army hot-key of Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts/Tanks/Viking (a typical composition when playing versus Protoss), and tab through categories, without ever having to worry about a single unit type reaching the battle before the rest of the group.
Now let's take a look at the core units for a basic Protoss and Zerg army:
1) Zealot with Charge- 2.75
2) Stalker - 2.95
3) Sentry - 2.25
4) High Templar - 1.88
5) Colossus - 2.25
6) Immortal - 2.25
7) Dark Templar - 2.81
8) Phoenix - 4.25
9) Void Ray - 2.25
ok so lets make it straight... you think that marauders with the speed of stalkers would make it harder for terran? also, I want to throw in my 2 cents regarding "terran being the most forgiving race because they can drop supply depots and drop 6 mules at a time if they forgot to do it earlier" so... yeaaa but it works only in the bronzish leagues... it's the same as if I said that zerg is forgiving because you can rebuild workers 14 at a time from 2 hatcheries after you get harassed... zerg is forgiving because after getting all your army killed and workers, they need like 2 minutes of peace to get back where they were... I think the game is pretty much well balanced, but I'd just change corruptors, collosi, reapers and hellions for something else... terran is the most forgiving race, there is nothing to argue here. & droping 6 mules work in grandmasters too... Let me try to argue with you then. Terran is the most "forgiving" race when it comes to -calling down mules -getting supply blocked -scanning PERIOD
Disagreed. It can be a bitch to avoid getting supply blocked as Terran. I think Zerg is the least punished for being supply blocked. You still inject, and your hatcheries still produce larvae until 3. Meaning that if you get supply blocked and aren't in any imminent threat of being killed, you'll almost hardly notice that you were even blocked.
At the same time, ovies take 25s to build, depots take 30s --> less forgiving.
And to avoid getting supply blocked as Zerg, it's super easy when your screen is elsewhere to hit 1svv (my hatches are on 1). With Terran you must return to your base and have a decent base layout, and have to pull multiple scvs to make the depots.
I'd also say Zerg is more forgiving in the harvester count. Sure, mules help tremendously if you need to simply keep afloat for a few minutes, but in terms of a macro game, Zergs ability to shit out a ton of drones in an instant is huge, and can help them easily recover from BF hellions. Are they behind? Yes, but if you can get off say a lucky baneling hit on marines via burrow or simply connecting them by catching T out of position, you can easily swing back instantly into the lead.
On September 13 2011 07:24 Whitewing wrote:
Balance discussion thread right? Uh...
Nerf Terran, buff Protoss, slightly buff Zerg.
Kk, thank you!
Oh specifics? Gateway units need to be stronger, probably should give them more benefits from upgrades. Charge needs a shorter research time and should be 150/150 not 200/200. Give void rays their 7 range back or put the speed upgrade back in the game (or decrease their cost to 200/150). Increase carrier armor and reduce carrier build time to make it a viable tech path. Kaydarin amulet should be put back in the game as an upgrade that increases the rate at which high templar gain energy instead of being an upgrade that increases starting energy.
Hydralisks should receive either a damage buff or a damage nerf and a cost decrease and be made a one supply unit. Change Hydralisk's type to Biological, it should not be light (It's bigger than an effing marauder man -_-). Remove burrow move from infestors, they should not be a harass unit on their own as well. Allow them to neural parasite massive units, but not psionic, and give ultralisks a slight buff to damage, and give them an ability to take reduced damage from area of effect attacks like siege tanks in siege mode. Give corrupters some additional range and make corruption activate passively on whatever they attack with a short duration.
Add 25 gas to the cost of making hellions, reduce income from MULES to 200 per MULE instead of 270, increase cost of researching concussive shells and stim to 100/100 and 150/150 respectively.
Ewwww. Some of the worst changes I've seen yet. Blindly making gateway units stronger would simply make 4gate OP. Why in the world would you suggest buffing charge when it's like the go-to upgrade that demolishes everything else?! It's SOOO strong. If toss is UP, don't buff the one thing they always go for, buff something else. Buffing voids would also be a complete joke to their timing attacks, and the speed upgrade made toss utterly unbeatable lategame if you could mass them, making them better than carriers. Carrier change could be ok with armor at 4 (it's at 3 currently yes?). Energy rate upgrades are silly imo and don't belong in SC2, all energy has always regened at an equal rate, if anything just go to +15 energy.
Hydras are already biological. They are biological AND light. I think NP not working vs archons is a bigger nerf than colossus but I can cede this point. Removing burrow from infestors is such a massive nerf though it completely overshadows everything else you said.
Your Terran nerfs are so utterly miserable that I suspect you lack even a basic understanding of this game.
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United States7483 Posts
On September 13 2011 07:24 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 07:10 Techno wrote:On September 13 2011 07:05 rpgalon wrote:On September 13 2011 06:42 Aiurr wrote:On August 16 2011 09:54 TENTHST wrote:
1) Marine - 2.25
2) Marauder - 2.25
3) Unsieged Siege Tank - 2.25
4) Medivac - 2.5
5) Ghost - 2.25
6) Raven - 2.25
7) Thor - 1.88
8) Viking in air - 2.75
9) Banshee - 2.75
Notice how most of the core units have move speeds between 2.25 and 2.75? This means the Terran player can have a 1 army hot-key of Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts/Tanks/Viking (a typical composition when playing versus Protoss), and tab through categories, without ever having to worry about a single unit type reaching the battle before the rest of the group.
Now let's take a look at the core units for a basic Protoss and Zerg army:
1) Zealot with Charge- 2.75
2) Stalker - 2.95
3) Sentry - 2.25
4) High Templar - 1.88
5) Colossus - 2.25
6) Immortal - 2.25
7) Dark Templar - 2.81
8) Phoenix - 4.25
9) Void Ray - 2.25
ok so lets make it straight... you think that marauders with the speed of stalkers would make it harder for terran? also, I want to throw in my 2 cents regarding "terran being the most forgiving race because they can drop supply depots and drop 6 mules at a time if they forgot to do it earlier" so... yeaaa but it works only in the bronzish leagues... it's the same as if I said that zerg is forgiving because you can rebuild workers 14 at a time from 2 hatcheries after you get harassed... zerg is forgiving because after getting all your army killed and workers, they need like 2 minutes of peace to get back where they were... I think the game is pretty much well balanced, but I'd just change corruptors, collosi, reapers and hellions for something else... terran is the most forgiving race, there is nothing to argue here. & droping 6 mules work in grandmasters too... Let me try to argue with you then. Terran is the most "forgiving" race when it comes to -calling down mules -getting supply blocked -scanning PERIOD Disagreed. It can be a bitch to avoid getting supply blocked as Terran. I think Zerg is the least punished for being supply blocked. You still inject, and your hatcheries still produce larvae until 3. Meaning that if you get supply blocked and aren't in any imminent threat of being killed, you'll almost hardly notice that you were even blocked. At the same time, ovies take 25s to build, depots take 30s --> less forgiving. And to avoid getting supply blocked as Zerg, it's super easy when your screen is elsewhere to hit 1svv (my hatches are on 1). With Terran you must return to your base and have a decent base layout, and have to pull multiple scvs to make the depots. I'd also say Zerg is less forgiving in the harvester count. Sure, mules help tremendously if you need to simply keep afloat for a few minutes, but in terms of a macro game, Zergs ability to shit out a ton of drones in an instant is huge, and can help them easily recover from BF hellions. Are they behind? Yes, but if you can get off say a lucky baneling hit on marines via burrow or simply connecting them by catching T out of position, you can easily swing back instantly into the lead.
Yeah, supply drop makes it suck so much when you get supply dropped.
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On September 11 2011 11:14 Trealador wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 11:02 RyLai wrote:
I just think anything that must be shut down by the 11-12 minute mark in order to NOT DIE is retarded especially if micro makes little difference.
I'll admit now that my micro isn't the best since I put more attention to macro, but I can see no way to micro around a Gateway army to snipe the range 9 Colossi in the back. Even with a flank, unless it's done perfectly, it's beyond difficult since the army in the front will get roasted for being weaker than it should be unless like I said you time it PERFECTLY and snipe the Colossi in the back as quickly as possible. I've long felt that out of the 3 Siege units (Siege Tank, Broodlord, and Colossus) that the Colossus is by far the most mobile and therefore the most deadly (imagine a Siege Tank that doesn't have a minimum range and doesn't have to siege in order to get it's incredible range, damage, and splash attack; imagine a Broodlord with significantly increased movement speed - that is what the Colossus is).
As a result, unless Protoss decides to NOT go for 2 base Colossus, it is completely on Terran to hit at that critical 10 minute timing. Any later than 11 minutes and your opponent will surely have Colossus range and maybe even 2 Colossi, far more than enough to roast what you will have by then. But you can't be guaranteed that your opponent WON'T go Colossi because you will often see a Robotics Facility for Observers. The could just as easily then go to Templar-based play, so in order to cover all your bases, you NEED to bring a Ghost or 2 and land a good EMP(s).
If you hit at the critical timing where Protoss has only 1 Colossus without range, you can snipe it and clear out a majority of his army. If the Protoss doesn't defend well, then the game SHOULD be over. If he defends really well, it wouldn't be too surprising if he kept his first Colossus. From that point, you NEED to go double Reactor Starports in order to keep up production so that you don't die to a Colossus timing attack. A single Reactored Starport isn't enough, especially with 2 Nexuses constantly Chrono Boosting the Colossus production.
So it's all on the Terran to aim to hit at that critical 10 minute mark so that he has a chance to try and even play the late game, while also defending all ins and retarded harass like 3 Gate VR and 2 base DTs.
And for Zerg, it's much the same issue. Colossi make Hydras nothing more than resource and supply eaters. Hydras need a movement speed buff and/or a HP buff (to 90, 95, 100, or 105). Mass Roaches can somewhat deal with it... But now you NEED Infestors and to use them to Neural Parasite the Colossi (guess what's going to be impossible to do next patch!). Obviously, getting Corruptors takes way too long unless you're REALLY good with your timings or somehow control the flow of the game really well to give yourself time to get that Spire up. Not only that, after you clear out the Colossi, the Protoss has a bunch of Gateway units and are warping more in on the way to your base, which Corruptors do absolutely nothing to help out against.
I feel like the Colossus should get a severe range reduction (9->7 or 7.5) or a severe movement speed nerf (so it basically becomes a super Reaver but also making it so the Colossus can't be attacked by air?). As if the rest of us (non-Protoss players) didn't have enough headaches dealing with the offensive power of Warp Gates alone... So you are saying you can't beat a collossus timing of 11-12 minutes? Terran is fine, make vikings. This is a balance discussion not a I can't beat this cause I don't know what to do discussion.
You shouldnt just shut something down instantly because you don't want to talk about it.
I kinda feel what he is saying, but you only need 1 reactor port and 1 unreactored port when your mkaing the 2 base -> 3 base transition. Then if you go to 200/200 Colossus Based vs 200/200 MMMVG you will lose the engagement. You need to be harassing, and engaging on his side of the map. You need to find a way to keep medivacs alive so that reinforcement marauders can hold his victory push. In theory, you can still win, but alot of it has to do with the harassment. Same with TvZ.
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On September 13 2011 07:24 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 07:10 Techno wrote:On September 13 2011 07:05 rpgalon wrote:On September 13 2011 06:42 Aiurr wrote:On August 16 2011 09:54 TENTHST wrote:
1) Marine - 2.25
2) Marauder - 2.25
3) Unsieged Siege Tank - 2.25
4) Medivac - 2.5
5) Ghost - 2.25
6) Raven - 2.25
7) Thor - 1.88
8) Viking in air - 2.75
9) Banshee - 2.75
Notice how most of the core units have move speeds between 2.25 and 2.75? This means the Terran player can have a 1 army hot-key of Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts/Tanks/Viking (a typical composition when playing versus Protoss), and tab through categories, without ever having to worry about a single unit type reaching the battle before the rest of the group.
Now let's take a look at the core units for a basic Protoss and Zerg army:
1) Zealot with Charge- 2.75
2) Stalker - 2.95
3) Sentry - 2.25
4) High Templar - 1.88
5) Colossus - 2.25
6) Immortal - 2.25
7) Dark Templar - 2.81
8) Phoenix - 4.25
9) Void Ray - 2.25
ok so lets make it straight... you think that marauders with the speed of stalkers would make it harder for terran? also, I want to throw in my 2 cents regarding "terran being the most forgiving race because they can drop supply depots and drop 6 mules at a time if they forgot to do it earlier" so... yeaaa but it works only in the bronzish leagues... it's the same as if I said that zerg is forgiving because you can rebuild workers 14 at a time from 2 hatcheries after you get harassed... zerg is forgiving because after getting all your army killed and workers, they need like 2 minutes of peace to get back where they were... I think the game is pretty much well balanced, but I'd just change corruptors, collosi, reapers and hellions for something else... terran is the most forgiving race, there is nothing to argue here. & droping 6 mules work in grandmasters too... Let me try to argue with you then. Terran is the most "forgiving" race when it comes to -calling down mules -getting supply blocked -scanning PERIOD Disagreed. It can be a bitch to avoid getting supply blocked as Terran. I think Zerg is the least punished for being supply blocked. You still inject, and your hatcheries still produce larvae until 3. Meaning that if you get supply blocked and aren't in any imminent threat of being killed, you'll almost hardly notice that you were even blocked. At the same time, ovies take 25s to build, depots take 30s --> less forgiving. And to avoid getting supply blocked as Zerg, it's super easy when your screen is elsewhere to hit 1svv (my hatches are on 1). With Terran you must return to your base and have a decent base layout, and have to pull multiple scvs to make the depots. I'd also say Zerg is more forgiving in the harvester count. Sure, mules help tremendously if you need to simply keep afloat for a few minutes, but in terms of a macro game, Zergs ability to shit out a ton of drones in an instant is huge, and can help them easily recover from BF hellions. Are they behind? Yes, but if you can get off say a lucky baneling hit on marines via burrow or simply connecting them by catching T out of position, you can easily swing back instantly into the lead.
fixed ;]
so yea... I do not see any reason how terran is more forgivable than zerg or protoss... it is actually the other way around...
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On September 13 2011 07:26 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 07:24 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2011 07:10 Techno wrote:On September 13 2011 07:05 rpgalon wrote:On September 13 2011 06:42 Aiurr wrote:On August 16 2011 09:54 TENTHST wrote:
1) Marine - 2.25
2) Marauder - 2.25
3) Unsieged Siege Tank - 2.25
4) Medivac - 2.5
5) Ghost - 2.25
6) Raven - 2.25
7) Thor - 1.88
8) Viking in air - 2.75
9) Banshee - 2.75
Notice how most of the core units have move speeds between 2.25 and 2.75? This means the Terran player can have a 1 army hot-key of Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts/Tanks/Viking (a typical composition when playing versus Protoss), and tab through categories, without ever having to worry about a single unit type reaching the battle before the rest of the group.
Now let's take a look at the core units for a basic Protoss and Zerg army:
1) Zealot with Charge- 2.75
2) Stalker - 2.95
3) Sentry - 2.25
4) High Templar - 1.88
5) Colossus - 2.25
6) Immortal - 2.25
7) Dark Templar - 2.81
8) Phoenix - 4.25
9) Void Ray - 2.25
ok so lets make it straight... you think that marauders with the speed of stalkers would make it harder for terran? also, I want to throw in my 2 cents regarding "terran being the most forgiving race because they can drop supply depots and drop 6 mules at a time if they forgot to do it earlier" so... yeaaa but it works only in the bronzish leagues... it's the same as if I said that zerg is forgiving because you can rebuild workers 14 at a time from 2 hatcheries after you get harassed... zerg is forgiving because after getting all your army killed and workers, they need like 2 minutes of peace to get back where they were... I think the game is pretty much well balanced, but I'd just change corruptors, collosi, reapers and hellions for something else... terran is the most forgiving race, there is nothing to argue here. & droping 6 mules work in grandmasters too... Let me try to argue with you then. Terran is the most "forgiving" race when it comes to -calling down mules -getting supply blocked -scanning PERIOD Disagreed. It can be a bitch to avoid getting supply blocked as Terran. I think Zerg is the least punished for being supply blocked. You still inject, and your hatcheries still produce larvae until 3. Meaning that if you get supply blocked and aren't in any imminent threat of being killed, you'll almost hardly notice that you were even blocked. At the same time, ovies take 25s to build, depots take 30s --> less forgiving. And to avoid getting supply blocked as Zerg, it's super easy when your screen is elsewhere to hit 1svv (my hatches are on 1). With Terran you must return to your base and have a decent base layout, and have to pull multiple scvs to make the depots. I'd also say Zerg is less forgiving in the harvester count. Sure, mules help tremendously if you need to simply keep afloat for a few minutes, but in terms of a macro game, Zergs ability to shit out a ton of drones in an instant is huge, and can help them easily recover from BF hellions. Are they behind? Yes, but if you can get off say a lucky baneling hit on marines via burrow or simply connecting them by catching T out of position, you can easily swing back instantly into the lead. Yeah, supply drop makes it suck so much when you get supply dropped.
Supply drop punishes you by not allowing you to mule, which is a bigger punishment in my eyes than what Zerg goes through, almost nothing (unless being attacked at that moment).
On September 13 2011 07:30 Aiurr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 07:24 FabledIntegral wrote:On September 13 2011 07:10 Techno wrote:On September 13 2011 07:05 rpgalon wrote:On September 13 2011 06:42 Aiurr wrote:On August 16 2011 09:54 TENTHST wrote:
1) Marine - 2.25
2) Marauder - 2.25
3) Unsieged Siege Tank - 2.25
4) Medivac - 2.5
5) Ghost - 2.25
6) Raven - 2.25
7) Thor - 1.88
8) Viking in air - 2.75
9) Banshee - 2.75
Notice how most of the core units have move speeds between 2.25 and 2.75? This means the Terran player can have a 1 army hot-key of Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts/Tanks/Viking (a typical composition when playing versus Protoss), and tab through categories, without ever having to worry about a single unit type reaching the battle before the rest of the group.
Now let's take a look at the core units for a basic Protoss and Zerg army:
1) Zealot with Charge- 2.75
2) Stalker - 2.95
3) Sentry - 2.25
4) High Templar - 1.88
5) Colossus - 2.25
6) Immortal - 2.25
7) Dark Templar - 2.81
8) Phoenix - 4.25
9) Void Ray - 2.25
ok so lets make it straight... you think that marauders with the speed of stalkers would make it harder for terran? also, I want to throw in my 2 cents regarding "terran being the most forgiving race because they can drop supply depots and drop 6 mules at a time if they forgot to do it earlier" so... yeaaa but it works only in the bronzish leagues... it's the same as if I said that zerg is forgiving because you can rebuild workers 14 at a time from 2 hatcheries after you get harassed... zerg is forgiving because after getting all your army killed and workers, they need like 2 minutes of peace to get back where they were... I think the game is pretty much well balanced, but I'd just change corruptors, collosi, reapers and hellions for something else... terran is the most forgiving race, there is nothing to argue here. & droping 6 mules work in grandmasters too... Let me try to argue with you then. Terran is the most "forgiving" race when it comes to -calling down mules -getting supply blocked -scanning PERIOD Disagreed. It can be a bitch to avoid getting supply blocked as Terran. I think Zerg is the least punished for being supply blocked. You still inject, and your hatcheries still produce larvae until 3. Meaning that if you get supply blocked and aren't in any imminent threat of being killed, you'll almost hardly notice that you were even blocked. At the same time, ovies take 25s to build, depots take 30s --> less forgiving. And to avoid getting supply blocked as Zerg, it's super easy when your screen is elsewhere to hit 1svv (my hatches are on 1). With Terran you must return to your base and have a decent base layout, and have to pull multiple scvs to make the depots. I'd also say Zerg is more forgiving in the harvester count. Sure, mules help tremendously if you need to simply keep afloat for a few minutes, but in terms of a macro game, Zergs ability to shit out a ton of drones in an instant is huge, and can help them easily recover from BF hellions. Are they behind? Yes, but if you can get off say a lucky baneling hit on marines via burrow or simply connecting them by catching T out of position, you can easily swing back instantly into the lead. fixed ;] so yea... I do not see any reason how terran is more forgivable than zerg or protoss... it is actually the other way around...
ty!
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On September 13 2011 07:19 Aiurr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 07:15 terror-eu wrote:On September 13 2011 07:10 Techno wrote:On September 13 2011 07:05 rpgalon wrote:On September 13 2011 06:42 Aiurr wrote:On August 16 2011 09:54 TENTHST wrote:
1) Marine - 2.25
2) Marauder - 2.25
3) Unsieged Siege Tank - 2.25
4) Medivac - 2.5
5) Ghost - 2.25
6) Raven - 2.25
7) Thor - 1.88
8) Viking in air - 2.75
9) Banshee - 2.75
Notice how most of the core units have move speeds between 2.25 and 2.75? This means the Terran player can have a 1 army hot-key of Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts/Tanks/Viking (a typical composition when playing versus Protoss), and tab through categories, without ever having to worry about a single unit type reaching the battle before the rest of the group.
Now let's take a look at the core units for a basic Protoss and Zerg army:
1) Zealot with Charge- 2.75
2) Stalker - 2.95
3) Sentry - 2.25
4) High Templar - 1.88
5) Colossus - 2.25
6) Immortal - 2.25
7) Dark Templar - 2.81
8) Phoenix - 4.25
9) Void Ray - 2.25
ok so lets make it straight... you think that marauders with the speed of stalkers would make it harder for terran? also, I want to throw in my 2 cents regarding "terran being the most forgiving race because they can drop supply depots and drop 6 mules at a time if they forgot to do it earlier" so... yeaaa but it works only in the bronzish leagues... it's the same as if I said that zerg is forgiving because you can rebuild workers 14 at a time from 2 hatcheries after you get harassed... zerg is forgiving because after getting all your army killed and workers, they need like 2 minutes of peace to get back where they were... I think the game is pretty much well balanced, but I'd just change corruptors, collosi, reapers and hellions for something else... terran is the most forgiving race, there is nothing to argue here. & droping 6 mules work in grandmasters too... Let me try to argue with you then. Terran is the most "forgiving" race when it comes to -calling down mules -getting supply blocked -scanning PERIOD This does not mean that Terran is the most forgiving race in general, or in macro even, since we have directly said nothing about -unit control -unit production Which are some key elements in the game. how do you produce units?, with minerals... how do you get minerals svc´s ( never forget to make workers )... oops call down mules?... get it... no you don't get it... if terran will forget about producing units he will lose, while zerg and protoss can build as much as they want instantly... terran can't just "queue" units as that guy said because it is also a pretty much best way to lose the game. As a terran you must have a perfect number of production facilities and produce of them constantly as much as you have income. This is how terran is not forgivable race. Even if you save up 4k minerals from mules, you won't spend it in 30 seconds like zerg or protoss.
Hi. Every race is like this.
If I have 6 warp gates, two robotics facilities, and two stargates and I'm not macro-ing well, I'm screwed. True, I can make 6 units *instantly* (you can't use the "Protoss instant units" argument for robo or air units), but I still have to wait for a cool down (so if I'm trying to re-macro an army, the queue is as long as a Terran macro-ing anyway).
If I have three hatcheries and I'm not macro-ing well, I'm screwed. True, I may have larvae stockpiled, but I had to be hitting those larvae injects on time for the past few minutes.
Every race has macro mechanics, and every race has to remember to macro well.
The one forgiving thing about Terran is that he has stackable energy in the form of MULEs or scans or supply drops. Zergs can't inject multiple times (although they could spread creep, but that's basically a penalty or there's usually an extra queen for that) and you can't chrono boost the same structure multiple times in a row (although you can use it on different buildings, which isn't bad- although it implies you could have done it earlier).
In short, Terran has an energy advantage.
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On September 13 2011 07:24 Whitewing wrote:
Balance discussion thread right? Uh...
Nerf Terran, buff Protoss, slightly buff Zerg.
Kk, thank you!
Oh specifics? Gateway units need to be stronger, probably should give them more benefits from upgrades. Charge needs a shorter research time and should be 150/150 not 200/200. Give void rays their 7 range back or put the speed upgrade back in the game (or decrease their cost to 200/150). Increase carrier armor and reduce carrier build time to make it a viable tech path. Kaydarin amulet should be put back in the game as an upgrade that increases the rate at which high templar gain energy instead of being an upgrade that increases starting energy.
Hydralisks should receive either a damage buff or a damage nerf and a cost decrease and be made a one supply unit. Change Hydralisk's type to Biological, it should not be light (It's bigger than an effing marauder man -_-). Remove burrow move from infestors, they should not be a harass unit on their own as well. Allow them to neural parasite massive units, but not psionic, and give ultralisks a slight buff to damage, and give them an ability to take reduced damage from area of effect attacks like siege tanks in siege mode, storm, and similar abilities. Give corrupters some additional range and make corruption activate passively on whatever they attack with a short duration.
Add 25 gas to the cost of making hellions, reduce income from MULES to 200 per MULE instead of 270, increase cost of researching concussive shells and stim to 100/100 and 150/150 respectively.
Change everything! What could possibly go wrong?
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On September 13 2011 07:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 07:19 Aiurr wrote:On September 13 2011 07:15 terror-eu wrote:On September 13 2011 07:10 Techno wrote:On September 13 2011 07:05 rpgalon wrote:On September 13 2011 06:42 Aiurr wrote:On August 16 2011 09:54 TENTHST wrote:
1) Marine - 2.25
2) Marauder - 2.25
3) Unsieged Siege Tank - 2.25
4) Medivac - 2.5
5) Ghost - 2.25
6) Raven - 2.25
7) Thor - 1.88
8) Viking in air - 2.75
9) Banshee - 2.75
Notice how most of the core units have move speeds between 2.25 and 2.75? This means the Terran player can have a 1 army hot-key of Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts/Tanks/Viking (a typical composition when playing versus Protoss), and tab through categories, without ever having to worry about a single unit type reaching the battle before the rest of the group.
Now let's take a look at the core units for a basic Protoss and Zerg army:
1) Zealot with Charge- 2.75
2) Stalker - 2.95
3) Sentry - 2.25
4) High Templar - 1.88
5) Colossus - 2.25
6) Immortal - 2.25
7) Dark Templar - 2.81
8) Phoenix - 4.25
9) Void Ray - 2.25
ok so lets make it straight... you think that marauders with the speed of stalkers would make it harder for terran? also, I want to throw in my 2 cents regarding "terran being the most forgiving race because they can drop supply depots and drop 6 mules at a time if they forgot to do it earlier" so... yeaaa but it works only in the bronzish leagues... it's the same as if I said that zerg is forgiving because you can rebuild workers 14 at a time from 2 hatcheries after you get harassed... zerg is forgiving because after getting all your army killed and workers, they need like 2 minutes of peace to get back where they were... I think the game is pretty much well balanced, but I'd just change corruptors, collosi, reapers and hellions for something else... terran is the most forgiving race, there is nothing to argue here. & droping 6 mules work in grandmasters too... Let me try to argue with you then. Terran is the most "forgiving" race when it comes to -calling down mules -getting supply blocked -scanning PERIOD This does not mean that Terran is the most forgiving race in general, or in macro even, since we have directly said nothing about -unit control -unit production Which are some key elements in the game. how do you produce units?, with minerals... how do you get minerals svc´s ( never forget to make workers )... oops call down mules?... get it... no you don't get it... if terran will forget about producing units he will lose, while zerg and protoss can build as much as they want instantly... terran can't just "queue" units as that guy said because it is also a pretty much best way to lose the game. As a terran you must have a perfect number of production facilities and produce of them constantly as much as you have income. This is how terran is not forgivable race. Even if you save up 4k minerals from mules, you won't spend it in 30 seconds like zerg or protoss. Hi. Every race is like this. If I have 6 warp gates, two robotics facilities, and two stargates and I'm not macro-ing well, I'm screwed. True, I can make 6 units *instantly* (you can't use the "Protoss instant units" argument for robo or air units), but I still have to wait for a cool down (so if I'm trying to re-macro an army, the queue is as long as a Terran macro-ing anyway). If I have three hatcheries and I'm not macro-ing well, I'm screwed. True, I may have larvae stockpiled, but I had to be hitting those larvae injects on time for the past few minutes. Every race has macro mechanics, and every race has to remember to macro well. The one forgiving thing about Terran is that he has stackable energy in the form of MULEs or scans or supply drops. Zergs can't inject multiple times (although they could spread creep, but that's basically a penalty or there's usually an extra queen for that) and you can't chrono boost the same structure multiple times in a row (although you can use it on different buildings, which isn't bad- although it implies you could have done it earlier). In short, Terran has an energy advantage.
Yeah, but none of that means their macro is easier, which is what many imply, or that their macro is any more forgiving, which isn't true whatsoever (as I said, I think overall, Zerg macro is *generally* the most forgiving).
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On September 13 2011 07:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 07:19 Aiurr wrote:On September 13 2011 07:15 terror-eu wrote:On September 13 2011 07:10 Techno wrote:On September 13 2011 07:05 rpgalon wrote:On September 13 2011 06:42 Aiurr wrote:On August 16 2011 09:54 TENTHST wrote:
1) Marine - 2.25
2) Marauder - 2.25
3) Unsieged Siege Tank - 2.25
4) Medivac - 2.5
5) Ghost - 2.25
6) Raven - 2.25
7) Thor - 1.88
8) Viking in air - 2.75
9) Banshee - 2.75
Notice how most of the core units have move speeds between 2.25 and 2.75? This means the Terran player can have a 1 army hot-key of Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts/Tanks/Viking (a typical composition when playing versus Protoss), and tab through categories, without ever having to worry about a single unit type reaching the battle before the rest of the group.
Now let's take a look at the core units for a basic Protoss and Zerg army:
1) Zealot with Charge- 2.75
2) Stalker - 2.95
3) Sentry - 2.25
4) High Templar - 1.88
5) Colossus - 2.25
6) Immortal - 2.25
7) Dark Templar - 2.81
8) Phoenix - 4.25
9) Void Ray - 2.25
ok so lets make it straight... you think that marauders with the speed of stalkers would make it harder for terran? also, I want to throw in my 2 cents regarding "terran being the most forgiving race because they can drop supply depots and drop 6 mules at a time if they forgot to do it earlier" so... yeaaa but it works only in the bronzish leagues... it's the same as if I said that zerg is forgiving because you can rebuild workers 14 at a time from 2 hatcheries after you get harassed... zerg is forgiving because after getting all your army killed and workers, they need like 2 minutes of peace to get back where they were... I think the game is pretty much well balanced, but I'd just change corruptors, collosi, reapers and hellions for something else... terran is the most forgiving race, there is nothing to argue here. & droping 6 mules work in grandmasters too... Let me try to argue with you then. Terran is the most "forgiving" race when it comes to -calling down mules -getting supply blocked -scanning PERIOD This does not mean that Terran is the most forgiving race in general, or in macro even, since we have directly said nothing about -unit control -unit production Which are some key elements in the game. how do you produce units?, with minerals... how do you get minerals svc´s ( never forget to make workers )... oops call down mules?... get it... no you don't get it... if terran will forget about producing units he will lose, while zerg and protoss can build as much as they want instantly... terran can't just "queue" units as that guy said because it is also a pretty much best way to lose the game. As a terran you must have a perfect number of production facilities and produce of them constantly as much as you have income. This is how terran is not forgivable race. Even if you save up 4k minerals from mules, you won't spend it in 30 seconds like zerg or protoss. Hi. Every race is like this. If I have 6 warp gates, two robotics facilities, and two stargates and I'm not macro-ing well, I'm screwed. True, I can make 6 units *instantly* (you can't use the "Protoss instant units" argument for robo or air units), but I still have to wait for a cool down (so if I'm trying to re-macro an army, the queue is as long as a Terran macro-ing anyway). If I have three hatcheries and I'm not macro-ing well, I'm screwed. True, I may have larvae stockpiled, but I had to be hitting those larvae injects on time for the past few minutes. Every race has macro mechanics, and every race has to remember to macro well. The one forgiving thing about Terran is that he has stackable energy in the form of MULEs or scans or supply drops. Zergs can't inject multiple times (although they could spread creep, but that's basically a penalty or there's usually an extra queen for that) and you can't chrono boost the same structure multiple times in a row (although you can use it on different buildings, which isn't bad- although it implies you could have done it earlier). In short, Terran has an energy advantage.
maybe zerg can't stack injects (aka inject 3 times at once) but on the other hand, zerg can stack larva... each hatchery can have 24 larva if I am not mistaken... and if you get a macro hatch?
It is imho really low thing to complain about terran being able to call multiple mules at the same time... It is hardly a balance issue. It doesn't even make terran easier to handle comparing to other races...
1.) zerg has to look at his base to inject, terran to build supply depots (I think it's more problematic to build supply depots as a teran than it is to inject larva, and it is much more forgivable to forget about larva inject for 30 seconds than it is to forget building a supply depot... even if you can drop supply)
2.) terran can call mules, zerg can make up 24 drones in 30 seconds from 1 hatchery
I think it is well balanced, but I do not really care if terran gets cooldown on summoning mules.
I never forget about doing it anyway, but if I could have only 1 mule from each CC at a time, then I think it is only fair to remove larva stacking from hatcheries as well.
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On September 13 2011 08:07 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 07:24 Whitewing wrote:
Balance discussion thread right? Uh...
Nerf Terran, buff Protoss, slightly buff Zerg.
Kk, thank you!
Oh specifics? Gateway units need to be stronger, probably should give them more benefits from upgrades. Charge needs a shorter research time and should be 150/150 not 200/200. Give void rays their 7 range back or put the speed upgrade back in the game (or decrease their cost to 200/150). Increase carrier armor and reduce carrier build time to make it a viable tech path. Kaydarin amulet should be put back in the game as an upgrade that increases the rate at which high templar gain energy instead of being an upgrade that increases starting energy.
Hydralisks should receive either a damage buff or a damage nerf and a cost decrease and be made a one supply unit. Change Hydralisk's type to Biological, it should not be light (It's bigger than an effing marauder man -_-). Remove burrow move from infestors, they should not be a harass unit on their own as well. Allow them to neural parasite massive units, but not psionic, and give ultralisks a slight buff to damage, and give them an ability to take reduced damage from area of effect attacks like siege tanks in siege mode, storm, and similar abilities. Give corrupters some additional range and make corruption activate passively on whatever they attack with a short duration.
Add 25 gas to the cost of making hellions, reduce income from MULES to 200 per MULE instead of 270, increase cost of researching concussive shells and stim to 100/100 and 150/150 respectively. Change everything! What could possibly go wrong?
Marines should also have constantly decreasing life 
But seriously, I think Charge should only be 150/150 instead of 200/200. Zealots are useless against Terran until they become chargelots, unless the Terran opponent has no idea how to micro... and zealots are supposed to be the damage dealers in a zealot/ stalker/ sentry ball.
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On September 13 2011 08:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 08:07 Bagi wrote:On September 13 2011 07:24 Whitewing wrote:
Balance discussion thread right? Uh...
Nerf Terran, buff Protoss, slightly buff Zerg.
Kk, thank you!
Oh specifics? Gateway units need to be stronger, probably should give them more benefits from upgrades. Charge needs a shorter research time and should be 150/150 not 200/200. Give void rays their 7 range back or put the speed upgrade back in the game (or decrease their cost to 200/150). Increase carrier armor and reduce carrier build time to make it a viable tech path. Kaydarin amulet should be put back in the game as an upgrade that increases the rate at which high templar gain energy instead of being an upgrade that increases starting energy.
Hydralisks should receive either a damage buff or a damage nerf and a cost decrease and be made a one supply unit. Change Hydralisk's type to Biological, it should not be light (It's bigger than an effing marauder man -_-). Remove burrow move from infestors, they should not be a harass unit on their own as well. Allow them to neural parasite massive units, but not psionic, and give ultralisks a slight buff to damage, and give them an ability to take reduced damage from area of effect attacks like siege tanks in siege mode, storm, and similar abilities. Give corrupters some additional range and make corruption activate passively on whatever they attack with a short duration.
Add 25 gas to the cost of making hellions, reduce income from MULES to 200 per MULE instead of 270, increase cost of researching concussive shells and stim to 100/100 and 150/150 respectively. Change everything! What could possibly go wrong? Marines should also have constantly decreasing life But seriously, I think Charge should only be 150/150 instead of 200/200. Zealots are useless against Terran until they become chargelots, unless the Terran opponent has no idea how to micro... and zealots are supposed to be the damage dealers in a zealot/ stalker/ sentry ball.
Zealots may be useless without charge, but with charge they become really stong... they got about 2x DPS of a stalker and they die after 6 shots from a siege tank... this is why I think charge is not a thing you should get cheap ;]
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On September 13 2011 08:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2011 08:07 Bagi wrote:On September 13 2011 07:24 Whitewing wrote:
Balance discussion thread right? Uh...
Nerf Terran, buff Protoss, slightly buff Zerg.
Kk, thank you!
Oh specifics? Gateway units need to be stronger, probably should give them more benefits from upgrades. Charge needs a shorter research time and should be 150/150 not 200/200. Give void rays their 7 range back or put the speed upgrade back in the game (or decrease their cost to 200/150). Increase carrier armor and reduce carrier build time to make it a viable tech path. Kaydarin amulet should be put back in the game as an upgrade that increases the rate at which high templar gain energy instead of being an upgrade that increases starting energy.
Hydralisks should receive either a damage buff or a damage nerf and a cost decrease and be made a one supply unit. Change Hydralisk's type to Biological, it should not be light (It's bigger than an effing marauder man -_-). Remove burrow move from infestors, they should not be a harass unit on their own as well. Allow them to neural parasite massive units, but not psionic, and give ultralisks a slight buff to damage, and give them an ability to take reduced damage from area of effect attacks like siege tanks in siege mode, storm, and similar abilities. Give corrupters some additional range and make corruption activate passively on whatever they attack with a short duration.
Add 25 gas to the cost of making hellions, reduce income from MULES to 200 per MULE instead of 270, increase cost of researching concussive shells and stim to 100/100 and 150/150 respectively. Change everything! What could possibly go wrong? Marines should also have constantly decreasing life But seriously, I think Charge should only be 150/150 instead of 200/200. Zealots are useless against Terran until they become chargelots, unless the Terran opponent has no idea how to micro... and zealots are supposed to be the damage dealers in a zealot/ stalker/ sentry ball.
But at the same time Zealot/Sentry is sooo strong if you have +1 armor and they don't have +1 attack yet (easily exploitable timing windows due to chrono)... I suffer from early game timing attacks all the time vs guardian shielded Zealots... have marines/rauders tickle them (although before charge at least you can kite with rauders).
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EPT
