On September 15 2011 10:13 MrCon wrote: Just making a little post about 111. Yesterday it was held twice, perhaps it was already discussed here but anyway. Both time protoss did what the most anti 111 guide are saying is "bullshit" : catching the terran in the middle of the map unsieged/unprepared. And both times was on xelnaga caverns, the best map to do it. + Show Spoiler +
First time Thorzain did it to Huk, 2nd time Puma did it to Mana, both held in the exact same manner even tho it wasn't the exact same variation (more banshees from Puma
Perhaps it'll interest people who missed it, vods are on the onemoregame twitch channel, EG vs Mouz.
Very cool to see how quickly pros have reacted to its popularity. It's still hugely powerful, but far far far from unbeatable.
On September 15 2011 05:26 Aiurr wrote: I thought in TvZ, terran is strong in the first 10 minutes, but after that, zerg is just OP... mainly because there is no counter to mass infestors + zerglings/broodlords.
It's not necessarily Terran is strong, it's that a lot of the earlier maps and build times on bunkers made it ridiculous. Holding 2 rax scv-all in on steppes of war when you could wall off with 2 bunkers when it came, what, 10 seconds earlier? was a bit broken.
Mass infestor/ling/broodlord is dealt with ghost/tank, or rine/tank/viking, into thor/tank/viking. On even bases it's horribly inefficient. You can just trade on even economy with tank/viking, or use ghosts.
infestors counter ghosts, vikings, marines and tanks (and before 1.4 also thors)... and besides, how many ghosts do you need to EMP or snipe 20 infestors? ofc considering that infestors doesn't need overseer to counter ghosts and that overseer will be 50/50 soon enough.
infestors + zerglings with transition into broodlords are unstoppable... all vikings will die in 3 fungals (i think fungal needs a nerf that it wouldn't stun air units, only deal damage to them)
If you don't want all of your vikings to die to infestors, spread them out, just like i have to spread my units when i face HT's and Ghosts.
I think the real issue with is that lack of an all around safe build in PvT:
Personally as a Terran I would like to see Terran be limited in their Choices of Tech vs. Protoss. Against Protoss literally every unit and strategy is viable in the early game to mid game.
On September 15 2011 05:03 Ozell wrote: To me, the game is quite balanced. Zerg and protosses just need to try out new things. 2, 3 months ago, every zerg was complaining about how Protoss were unbeatable, then guess what, they learned using ling/infestor, bling dropping, mass roach with no hydras, etc. They approached the matchup differently and guess what, it worked pretty well.
There was a time when Terrans didn't knew how to beat Ling bling muta, but they changed their playstyle and TvZ is actually pretty terran favored right now.
Protoss need to find new ways of thinking their matchups and Protoss may dominate again. Just look at JYP and how he's using the warp prism in PvZ (and even in PvT) and how good he's at the moment(mostly in ZvP).
That said, I think the Marine/tank/banshee all-in is quite hard to hold (read: almost impossible) and therefore, needs to be patched in some way. Though, this doesn't mean the whole matchup is unbalanced.
Furthermore, I kinda agree that EMP are kinda dumb right now and need to be fixed in some way. Reducing EMP range seems pretty good since HT's would become way better (But I wonder how that may unbalance ZvT)
No. Zerg got a huge infestor buff which turned the matchup around. No. Terran went tank/marine from the start and zerg went ling/bling/muta to counter that.
On September 15 2011 05:03 Ozell wrote: There was a time when Terrans didn't knew how to beat Ling bling muta, but they changed their playstyle and TvZ is actually pretty terran favored right now.
Protoss need to find new ways of thinking their matchups and Protoss may dominate again. Just look at JYP and how he's using the warp prism in PvZ (and even in PvT) and how good he's at the moment(mostly in ZvP).
1) ZvT have always, since release, been Terran favored. 2) Protoss got a gateway nerf, and Zerg got a huge infestor buff. That isn't 'figuring things out' - it's drastically changing what you got to work with.
What's dumb is that unless you get lucky, you can't know whether or not the Terran expands or not. So you kind of choose, either be behind in ability to defend an all in, or be behind in economy.
That's a problem you don't have vs Z or vs P. You can see the nexus / hatchery going down.
So the simplest solution is actually just making CC's not able to lift off - no matter the type of CC - and not change anything else. Because everything becomes a lot easier once you figure that part out.
I play protoss (and I'm new to TL), but I really think that protoss needs more end-game options. In brood war, there were way more options for protoss. Dark Archons were awesome casters, arbiters were good motherships, carriers were a viable tech. I mean, I'm not brood war expert, but being limited to a stalker/sentry/collosi deathball or a number of early all-in strategies is a bit boring.
Carriers are terrible, archons aren't cost effective, dark templar get destroyed past the 8 minute mark, and robo is the only real macro tech path.
I want collosi to get nerfed in exchange for a gateway buff, and I think that carriers need a buff pretty badly, too. We also have no real harassment options except for some good phoenix micro.
Meh, I just think it'd be nice to do something new.
On September 15 2011 10:13 MrCon wrote: Just making a little post about 111. Yesterday it was held twice, perhaps it was already discussed here but anyway. Both time protoss did what the most anti 111 guide are saying is "bullshit" : catching the terran in the middle of the map unsieged/unprepared. And both times was on xelnaga caverns, the best map to do it. + Show Spoiler +
First time Thorzain did it to Huk, 2nd time Puma did it to Mana, both held in the exact same manner even tho it wasn't the exact same variation (more banshees from Puma
Perhaps it'll interest people who missed it, vods are on the onemoregame twitch channel, EG vs Mouz.
Very cool to see how quickly pros have reacted to its popularity. It's still hugely powerful, but far far far from unbeatable.
Yep when your opponent afks his 3 banshees you can barely hold it. Great example!
GSL was a complete clusterfuck, so don't try argue that PvT is suddenly unbroken because a 1-1-1 got held a couple times. If next GSL has regular games then awesome, but for now its still a broken MU.
On September 15 2011 23:31 GinDo wrote: I think the real issue with is that lack of an all around safe build in PvT:
Personally as a Terran I would like to see Terran be limited in their Choices of Tech vs. Protoss. Against Protoss literally every unit and strategy is viable in the early game to mid game.
Yes, us brotoss have issues with safe openers and having to continually scout and poke a Terran just to see what tech route they are going. We need to specifically tailor our tech and build to what the Terran feels like doing all whilly nillly-like... Frustrations all over the place.
On September 15 2011 23:31 GinDo wrote: I think the real issue with is that lack of an all around safe build in PvT:
Personally as a Terran I would like to see Terran be limited in their Choices of Tech vs. Protoss. Against Protoss literally every unit and strategy is viable in the early game to mid game.
Yes, us brotoss have issues with safe openers and having to continually scout and poke a Terran just to see what tech route they are going. We need to specifically tailor our tech and build to what the Terran feels like doing all whilly nillly-like... Frustrations all over the place.
As a Terran I feel like this is true for both sides. In fact, I kinda think in the mid game scouting is more important for the Terran. As almost all Terrans do the exact same thing in the mid game (MMM), so what are you scouting for? In the early game, I think the scouting requirements are equal (is he all inning?), and past that I think its on the Terran to know if hes going: a) Chargelot/Archon (double reactor rax, 4 rax stim/ghost timing) b) Colossus (reactor port + naked port pumping vikings while dropping to try and secure a third) c) Mass Immortal/Gateway
I dont think Protoss needs much scouting in the midgame. I've tried adding tanks to my bio and even the Protoss I was playing against said it was stupid. Blue Flame Hellions are good to add vs Chargelots, but what is there to scout for from Terran after he expands anways?
In other news, I think Protosses should be massing immortals not only after the patch but right now. http://drop.sc/34473 http://drop.sc/34472 After the patch, they are gonna be even better.
On September 15 2011 10:13 MrCon wrote: Just making a little post about 111. Yesterday it was held twice, perhaps it was already discussed here but anyway. Both time protoss did what the most anti 111 guide are saying is "bullshit" : catching the terran in the middle of the map unsieged/unprepared. And both times was on xelnaga caverns, the best map to do it. + Show Spoiler +
First time Thorzain did it to Huk, 2nd time Puma did it to Mana, both held in the exact same manner even tho it wasn't the exact same variation (more banshees from Puma
Perhaps it'll interest people who missed it, vods are on the onemoregame twitch channel, EG vs Mouz.
Very cool to see how quickly pros have reacted to its popularity. It's still hugely powerful, but far far far from unbeatable.
Mana only held it against Puma because Puma played atrociously. Suppy blocking yourself 2 times, and not 5 seconds, we're talking about around 15s. As well as letting your banshee be idle during the fight.
Mana went blind for the best counter to the 1-1-1 build Pumas was going to do. Yet still puma almost won with the first push.
On September 15 2011 23:31 GinDo wrote: I think the real issue with is that lack of an all around safe build in PvT:
Personally as a Terran I would like to see Terran be limited in their Choices of Tech vs. Protoss. Against Protoss literally every unit and strategy is viable in the early game to mid game.
I have to disagree with you on this because protoss dictate how PvT goes. Since they control the tempo. Sure terran got a few opening but the standard is generally bio and is stuck playing reactive in TvP.
So to counter this you go an AOE unit such as collosi or HT. So terran will have to counter this. So basically protoss dictate the flow of the PvT. Of course this is not true if the terran decide to all-in then he will not play responses like most terran would in PvT. Terran is already limited in their choices when going against protoss because protoss get to choose what they rather fight against.
Also, by nerfing blue flame, they are also limiting terran build as well. There will be no more blue flame drop now or blue flame in pvt in general. So if you see tech lab on factory it will ALWAYS be tanks generally now. So you are already getting your wished. Of course blue flame was always kinda gimicky in pvt anyways since mech was always considered inferior.
On September 15 2011 23:31 GinDo wrote: I think the real issue with is that lack of an all around safe build in PvT:
Personally as a Terran I would like to see Terran be limited in their Choices of Tech vs. Protoss. Against Protoss literally every unit and strategy is viable in the early game to mid game.
I have to disagree with you on this because protoss dictate how PvT goes. Since they control the tempo. Sure terran got a few opening but the standard is generally bio and is stuck playing reactive in TvP.
So to counter this you go an AOE unit such as collosi or HT. So terran will have to counter this. So basically protoss dictate the flow of the PvT. Of course this is not true if the terran decide to all-in then he will not play responses like most terran would in PvT. Terran is already limited in their choices when going against protoss because protoss get to choose what they rather fight against.
Also, by nerfing blue flame, they are also limiting terran build as well. There will be no more blue flame drop now or blue flame in pvt in general. So if you see tech lab on factory it will ALWAYS be tanks generally now. So you are already getting your wished. Of course blue flame was always kinda gimicky in pvt anyways since mech was always considered inferior.
That's completely and utterly wrong. Terran dictates the game from the start with the choice of their blind. What ever Terran chooses to open effects the Protoss heavily. Basic
3 rax > 1 gate Fe / 3 gate / 1 gate robo with the chance to switch into a macro game 2 rax > 1 gate Fe 1 rax exe > safe against every all-in 1 rax tech-lab > vulnerable to proxy void-rays, otherwise safe
Then you got 10 different all-ins
On top of that Protoss needs to know how Terran transitions if they take an early expansion. Are they going 2 rax fast medivac, are they going 4 rax late medivac, are they doing a ghost push and so on.
There is 1 build Terran has to fear from protoss, proxy void-ray. But apart from that terran can do what they want and be safe against everything.
On September 15 2011 10:13 MrCon wrote: Just making a little post about 111. Yesterday it was held twice, perhaps it was already discussed here but anyway. Both time protoss did what the most anti 111 guide are saying is "bullshit" : catching the terran in the middle of the map unsieged/unprepared. And both times was on xelnaga caverns, the best map to do it. + Show Spoiler +
First time Thorzain did it to Huk, 2nd time Puma did it to Mana, both held in the exact same manner even tho it wasn't the exact same variation (more banshees from Puma
Perhaps it'll interest people who missed it, vods are on the onemoregame twitch channel, EG vs Mouz.
Actually Mr. Con -
Most 1-1-1 guides say that mid-map engagements can be highly successful, though risky in the hands of an unskilled player. Most high-level Protoss would agree that it can be very successful vs 1-1-1. I think most anti 1-1-1 guides call the 1-basing response "bullshit".
Terran starts out with the advantage in every single MU. The other races have to react to what Terran is doing for the majority of the game. Only in the late-mid to late game does Terran have to react to the other races. This is partly due to design, but also because of the sheer number of all-ins that Terran has at its disposal.
Lets look at ZvT All of the units that zerg builds are reactions to Terran units ie: banelings/infestors to kill marines, mutas to kill siege tanks, etc. (This isn't a perfect description of the MU, but it is good enough for this discussion). In a macro game, the only thing a Terran has to determine in the mid game is lair timing, and then if they are getting a spire or an infestation pit. Scouting a baneling nest also helps signify that a zerg plans to go muta ling bane. Lets say that a Terran scouts a spire. The only reacting they have to do is building Turrets. Marines already beat Muta, so they don't have to vary their unit composition. Infestors are sort of mixing the game up because although siege tanks are still pretty good vs infestors, ghosts are even better, so if a Terran is smart he won't do the standard 10 min timing push and will instead expand and get ghosts before trying to kill the zerg. Ghosts and vikings are the only reactive units that Terran has to build. All of this means that Terran gets to control the flow of the game. If they go mech, zerg has to react. Zerg can't go muta ling bane vs mech. If Terran goes marine tank, Zerg has to react. They can't go pure roach. Because Z has to react, Terran gets to control the way that the game goes. This is an advantage, but not necessarily an imbalance. White gets to move first in chess, but it doesn't mean that it is impossible to win with black. White just gets a tempo advantage in the form of an extra move.
As time passes, the picture becomes increasingly clear to me. Browder says Terran has too many goodies. Z and P have historically always struggled against T statistically. There was even a rap song about Terran being OP. This has been the consensus since beta.
There's the occasional seasonal whine - P being OP and Z being OP. But by far the most consistent, solid complaint has been about Terran. It's been this way since beta.
@Terran players: don't take this personally. There are some excellent Terran players who deserve to be where they are. But it's problematic being P or Z (although maybe ZvT is fixed now, time will tell) and facing flawed, unpolished race design.
I'm not sure what to think about HotS being so far away.
I still don't get why zerg is being nerfed. All of the other changes are really insignificant, since the infestor is pretty much the entire zerg race. How can blizzard not nerf terran when they have always been winning the majority of games since the beginning? Their thought process seems really strange.
On September 16 2011 05:19 KimJongChill wrote: I still don't get why zerg is being nerfed. All of the other changes are really insignificant, since the infestor is pretty much the entire zerg race. How can blizzard not nerf terran when they have always been winning the majority of games since the beginning? Their thought process seems really strange.
Yea, I'm confused by this as well. Blizzard seems very willing to experiment with potentially game breaking updates to Z and P.
They flat out removed Khaydarin Amulet from Protoss, because David Kim thought P had too much AoE (he said it would be either a storm nerf or a colossus nerf). They also flat out removed flux vanes, reduced VR armor to 0, increased VR build time, reduce VR damage...
Now they're toying with NP, which has been controversial to say the least...
I don't understand how ghost can still exist in its current form. Is Blizzard not holding T to the same reasoning as the other races? I don't get it.
I'm going to echo the progamer Terran DeMuslim on this one - how is it possible that NP is at the forefront of Blizzard's consideration, when there are more egregious units like Ghost passing under Blizzard's radar so quietly?
EPT
