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Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 102

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Kovaz
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada233 Posts
September 18 2011 03:01 GMT
#2021
An idea that popped into my head earlier today: make EMP not hit air. That way, you introduce the phoenix as a possible counter to ghosts and create an exciting micro battle between trying to lift ghosts vs. the terran trying to EMP your main army while also protecting ghosts with marines.
Ziggitz
Profile Joined September 2010
United States340 Posts
September 18 2011 03:15 GMT
#2022
Is anyone else bothered that roaches, the short squat and completely unstreamlined zerg creature can burrow move and hydras, the legless and perfectly streamlined creature with serpentine like movement can't? Maybe hydras should have fast burrow movement and roaches should trade in their burrow movement for above ground regeneration at lair or hive tech to make them really effective tanks.
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5226 Posts
September 18 2011 03:31 GMT
#2023
On September 18 2011 12:01 Kovaz wrote:
An idea that popped into my head earlier today: make EMP not hit air. That way, you introduce the phoenix as a possible counter to ghosts and create an exciting micro battle between trying to lift ghosts vs. the terran trying to EMP your main army while also protecting ghosts with marines.


Love it.

That or make EMP only hit a single unit, cost 25 or 50 energy, and completely drain the shields and energy on said unit.

Or reduce the range on EMP.

Or make EMP researchable.

Or give EMP to the Raven, remove HSM from the game, and give the Ghost a new ability (perhaps one where he stuns mech units?).
coreydota
Profile Joined October 2010
United States180 Posts
September 18 2011 03:35 GMT
#2024
On September 18 2011 12:31 BronzeKnee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2011 12:01 Kovaz wrote:
An idea that popped into my head earlier today: make EMP not hit air. That way, you introduce the phoenix as a possible counter to ghosts and create an exciting micro battle between trying to lift ghosts vs. the terran trying to EMP your main army while also protecting ghosts with marines.


Love it.

That or make EMP only hit a single unit, cost 25 or 50 energy, and completely drain the shields and energy on said unit.

Or reduce the range on EMP.

Or make EMP researchable.

Or give EMP to the Raven, remove HSM from the game, and give the Ghost a new ability (perhaps one where he stuns mech units?).


i have to say, that last idea is brilliant. (which is why blizzard will never implement it)
Mysticesper
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1183 Posts
September 18 2011 03:42 GMT
#2025
On September 18 2011 12:35 proxima_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2011 12:31 BronzeKnee wrote:
On September 18 2011 12:01 Kovaz wrote:
An idea that popped into my head earlier today: make EMP not hit air. That way, you introduce the phoenix as a possible counter to ghosts and create an exciting micro battle between trying to lift ghosts vs. the terran trying to EMP your main army while also protecting ghosts with marines.


Love it.

That or make EMP only hit a single unit, cost 25 or 50 energy, and completely drain the shields and energy on said unit.

Or reduce the range on EMP.

Or make EMP researchable.

Or give EMP to the Raven, remove HSM from the game, and give the Ghost a new ability (perhaps one where he stuns mech units?).


i have to say, that last idea is brilliant. (which is why blizzard will never implement it)


so basically bw style science vessel emps and ghost lockdowns?
docvoc
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States5491 Posts
September 18 2011 03:49 GMT
#2026
Is anyone here a bit annoyed with the idea that if Toss Fe's the zerg is free to macro up? i find that as toss if i Fe then i just rely on the zerg to not take a quick third, if he does and then tkaes a quick 4th and fifth then i find myself screwed, it just doesn't seem fair that Toss has such a low winrate against all the races and that it seems so hard to win now.
User was warned for too many mimes.
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5226 Posts
September 18 2011 04:06 GMT
#2027
On September 18 2011 12:42 Mysticesper wrote:

so basically bw style science vessel emps and ghost lockdowns?


The weird thing is, I remembed EMP on the Science Vessel, but I forgot about Ghost Lockdown, unless my subconcious remembered it or something. Weird. I played very little SC1.
sjschmidt93
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2518 Posts
September 18 2011 04:12 GMT
#2028
Hero's PvZ (specifically vs. IdrA) is terrifying. I think he could change that matchup.

Too bad his PvT is awful.
My grandpa could've proxied better, and not only does he have arthritis, he's also dead. -Sean "Day[9]" Plott
Ben...
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada3485 Posts
September 18 2011 04:23 GMT
#2029
On September 18 2011 12:35 proxima_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2011 12:31 BronzeKnee wrote:
On September 18 2011 12:01 Kovaz wrote:
An idea that popped into my head earlier today: make EMP not hit air. That way, you introduce the phoenix as a possible counter to ghosts and create an exciting micro battle between trying to lift ghosts vs. the terran trying to EMP your main army while also protecting ghosts with marines.


Love it.

That or make EMP only hit a single unit, cost 25 or 50 energy, and completely drain the shields and energy on said unit.

Or reduce the range on EMP.

Or make EMP researchable.

Or give EMP to the Raven, remove HSM from the game, and give the Ghost a new ability (perhaps one where he stuns mech units?).


i have to say, that last idea is brilliant. (which is why blizzard will never implement it)
I agree, I love that idea. Science Vessel 2.0. It would definitely make the Raven more relevant in the game. It makes sense because the Raven isn't this hugely mobile, cloakable unit that actually has a good attack like the ghost. Instead it is a slow, fragile, non-attacking unit that needs to be protected because of its cost, and cannot venture out on its own, just like the HT or infestor (moreso the HT than infestor but you get the point).

Terrans don't think twice about sending a group of ghosts ahead of their army to EMP. With Ravens they would, because it would be a much larger risk due to the slow speed and inability to cloak. It would make EMPing an actual risk for Terrans instead of the guaranteed damage it currently is.


"Cliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide" -Tastosis
hysterial
Profile Joined April 2011
United States2044 Posts
September 18 2011 04:28 GMT
#2030
On September 18 2011 13:12 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Hero's PvZ (specifically vs. IdrA) is terrifying. I think he could change that matchup.

Too bad his PvT is awful.


To be fair, a lot of toss are having trouble with PvT atm.
Orcasgt24
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada3238 Posts
September 18 2011 04:39 GMT
#2031
If you people wanna go play Brood War then go play Brood War. This is SC2 lets stop trying to make SC2 into BW with better graphics.
In Hearthstone we pray to RNGesus. When Yogg-Saron hits the field, RNGod gets to work
CrumpetGuvnor
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia302 Posts
September 18 2011 05:18 GMT
#2032
On September 14 2011 03:20 fishinguy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 14:44 T0fuuu wrote:
Too much protoss talk atm lets go back to terran <:

Who else thinks marines are a bit too good in every matchup? They scale quite well and ball very tightly to do insane dps, in zvt and tvp we are seeing more marine heavy armys because marines with medivacs rape gateway armys pretty cost effeciently and let terrans get ghosts faster. In zvt its a bit more balanced because of banelings and creep but when the upgrades start getting piled on marines they become a walking wrecking ball, they can fight lings, roaches mutas and hydras very easily and can kill expos pretty quickly. Drops also get pretty ridiculous to deal with as zerg or protoss because of how effective marines are against small forces. Getting into lategame as well if terran and zerg exchange armys, reactors can remake marines at a frightening pace. Pretty much any expo without something silly like 3 cannons or spines can get taken out by a force of 8 marines.

Part of the reason they are so good now is because they have extra health now and a free range upgrade but the other reason is that now that dropships dont need room for medics more marines can be held and their damage output increases tremendously. Medivacs heal at a fast rate and make dealing with marines between minerals pretty annoying for both races.

I would suggest lowering the marine ROF just slightly.


We go marines because everything else sucks. Its incredible difficult going mech or even pure marauder vs protoss. Its either marines or nothing. And nerfing a unit like the marine (backbone of the terran army) is going to do massive damage in all match ups and builds.

You ever think that nerfing the marine might, instead of damaging all match ups, fix all match ups? I know it's not the most desirable solution, but Terran is just so strong during the mid and early game (late game just comes down to quality of engagements I think with Terran maybe being a bit weak in tvp) that maybe a nerf of the marine is required.

Looking at the situation in Korea, there is clearly an issue with balance. 20 terrans 5 toss and 7 Zerg is not a healthy balance no matter how you look at it. And the toss stocks are looking like falling further as well due to the recent resurgence in the 111 build, and don't get confused as to which is the real damage dealer in the 111. Banshees can be countered by stalkers or Phoenix, tanks can be countered by immortals zeals or Phoenix, but the amount of marines that get pumped out cannot be realistically countered in time. As has been said numerous times before, collosus will stop this push but only if the Terran is stupid enough to let it happen. The moment he sees collosus, as he has to do is sit outside your base, make bunkers for the marines and expand.
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
September 18 2011 05:20 GMT
#2033
^ I think Crumpet is on to something.

Marine DPS is fine, but not if you give them a combat shield and healing dropships in addition to stim.
-Kyo-
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Japan1927 Posts
September 18 2011 05:27 GMT
#2034
I don't want to really get into a balance debate about this - I mean with very specific refined timings, but I always found it very interesting that OC's start with 50 energy, queens start with 25, which both allow for instant skill usage and nexus start with 0.

I don't see why it would be a problem to give a freshly built nexus, as in an expansion not your starting one, 25 energy. o.o... I don't think it would destroy anything in the game, and I think it would be hard pressed to find an example of how it would other than the insanely refined timings i noted above, but I always wondered about it xD

Anime is cuter than you. Legacy of the Void GM Protoss Gameplay: twitch.tv/kyo7763 youtube.com/user/KyoStarcraft/
TL+ Member
Kluey
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada1197 Posts
September 18 2011 05:29 GMT
#2035
On September 18 2011 13:12 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Hero's PvZ (specifically vs. IdrA) is terrifying. I think he could change that matchup.

Too bad his PvT is awful.


Alicia has the "best PvT" in the world and he still lost miserably in a terran filled tournament.
CrumpetGuvnor
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia302 Posts
September 18 2011 05:49 GMT
#2036
On September 18 2011 14:27 tQKyo wrote:
I don't want to really get into a balance debate about this - I mean with very specific refined timings, but I always found it very interesting that OC's start with 50 energy, queens start with 25, which both allow for instant skill usage and nexus start with 0.

I don't see why it would be a problem to give a freshly built nexus, as in an expansion not your starting one, 25 energy. o.o... I don't think it would destroy anything in the game, and I think it would be hard pressed to find an example of how it would other than the insanely refined timings i noted above, but I always wondered about it xD


Haha interesting point, however you have to buy both OCs and queens. CB comes with the nexus for free. think of it as a buy one, get a free energy upgrade type deal
CrumpetGuvnor
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia302 Posts
September 18 2011 05:52 GMT
#2037
On September 18 2011 14:20 0neder wrote:
^ I think Crumpet is on to something.

Marine DPS is fine, but not if you give them a combat shield and healing dropships in addition to stim.

I'm not saying that nerfing the marine is the optimal solution, but what if there was a sweet spot of marine dps that took tvx winrates back to 50% haha
Sapphire.lux
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania2620 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-18 05:55:08
September 18 2011 05:53 GMT
#2038
On September 14 2011 03:20 CrumpetGuvnor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 13 2011 14:44 T0fuuu wrote:
Too much protoss talk atm lets go back to terran <:

Who else thinks marines are a bit too good in every matchup? They scale quite well and ball very tightly to do insane dps, in zvt and tvp we are seeing more marine heavy armys because marines with medivacs rape gateway armys pretty cost effeciently and let terrans get ghosts faster. In zvt its a bit more balanced because of banelings and creep but when the upgrades start getting piled on marines they become a walking wrecking ball, they can fight lings, roaches mutas and hydras very easily and can kill expos pretty quickly. Drops also get pretty ridiculous to deal with as zerg or protoss because of how effective marines are against small forces. Getting into lategame as well if terran and zerg exchange armys, reactors can remake marines at a frightening pace. Pretty much any expo without something silly like 3 cannons or spines can get taken out by a force of 8 marines.

Part of the reason they are so good now is because they have extra health now and a free range upgrade but the other reason is that now that dropships dont need room for medics more marines can be held and their damage output increases tremendously. Medivacs heal at a fast rate and make dealing with marines between minerals pretty annoying for both races.

I would suggest lowering the marine ROF just slightly.




Looking at the situation in Korea, there is clearly an issue with balance. 20 terrans 5 toss and 7 Zerg is not a healthy balance no matter how you look at it.


That is an argument for bad tournament format not game balance. With the up & down system even if you consider 100% game balance it would be highly unlikely that all the players going down from code S are T and all the players coming in are P/Z (and this would have to happen about 3 times). Also, you have to look at how many players of each race are registered as "pro", the talent pool (ex brood war players), etc.

All we can say is that all 3 races have won a good nr of tournaments, meaning that there is no such thing as a "broken" race. Only Blizzard knows the win % across the board and have an idea about balance.
Head Coach Park: "They should buff tanks!"
ceaRshaf
Profile Joined August 2009
Romania4926 Posts
September 18 2011 05:55 GMT
#2039
On September 18 2011 14:29 Kluey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2011 13:12 sjschmidt93 wrote:
Hero's PvZ (specifically vs. IdrA) is terrifying. I think he could change that matchup.

Too bad his PvT is awful.


Alicia has the "best PvT" in the world and he still lost miserably in a terran filled tournament.



So this is what protoss has come down to? X player has the best pvt in the world actually means that he doesn't get stomped so embarrassing in the match? Protoss is pathetic.

What I have most is the lack of diversity in the race.
Mess with the best, die like the rest.
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
September 18 2011 06:02 GMT
#2040
On September 18 2011 12:35 proxima_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 18 2011 12:31 BronzeKnee wrote:
On September 18 2011 12:01 Kovaz wrote:
An idea that popped into my head earlier today: make EMP not hit air. That way, you introduce the phoenix as a possible counter to ghosts and create an exciting micro battle between trying to lift ghosts vs. the terran trying to EMP your main army while also protecting ghosts with marines.


Love it.

That or make EMP only hit a single unit, cost 25 or 50 energy, and completely drain the shields and energy on said unit.

Or reduce the range on EMP.

Or make EMP researchable.

Or give EMP to the Raven, remove HSM from the game, and give the Ghost a new ability (perhaps one where he stuns mech units?).


i have to say, that last idea is brilliant. (which is why blizzard will never implement it)

That is exactly what Terran needs, 1/1/1 All-ins with EMP
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