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protoss will get nerfed, but not because of tournament balance data etc, those have never been a big cause for blizzard to act.
but the overwhelming number of protoss on ladder will.
so they might not nerf blink stalker or oracle, but most possibly the mothershipcore, either its vision or changes to nexus cannon/time warp.
nexus cannon is not likely to get nerfed though, due to its importance on PvP and PvZ
time warp should get nerf because it is too strong of a spell for an early aggression.
Time warp and mothership core vision change could fix blink stalker and then terran doesn't need to prepare so much for early game defense
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On December 19 2013 13:36 ETisME wrote:
protoss will get nerfed, but not because of tournament balance data etc, those have never been a big cause for blizzard to act.
but the overwhelming number of protoss on ladder will.
so they might not nerf blink stalker or oracle, but most possibly the mothershipcore, either its vision or changes to nexus cannon/time warp.
nexus cannon is not likely to get nerfed though, due to its importance on PvP and PvZ
time warp should get nerf because it is too strong of a spell for an early aggression.
Time warp and mothership core vision change could fix blink stalker and then terran doesn't need to prepare so much for early game defense
I think thats definitely a step in the right direction, I wouldnt mind seeing how games played out with a nerf to the MSC. Personally, I like the idea of making time warp a cheap researchable upgrade like warpgate (though much faster obviously). Maybe onn either the twilight council or templar archives.
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How hard is it to see that the matchup PvT is pretty balanced, yet much harder for terran to play in the early stages of the game (the place where 80% of games seem to be decided by the amount of whining)
Blink all ins are frustrating to play against. Everyone knows that. The point is that, if you manage to hold it you ARE ahead.
*but a protoss can transition out of it*
yes he can. From a one base version into a natural while you have yours up already. You already have an ebay and probably medivac tech too.
*they can just do a 2 base version and do similar damage*
The 2 base version comes 1 minute later (Stim ready), this is seriously not the thing you should be complaining about. This is more a 2 base timing than anything else. You can have siege tanks out to deal with it pretty easily - which on most maps can defend your main blink in points and your natural.
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On December 19 2013 14:20 weikor wrote:
How hard is it to see that the matchup PvT is pretty balanced, yet much harder for terran to play in the early stages of the game (the place where 80% of games seem to be decided by the amount of whining)
Blink all ins are frustrating to play against. Everyone knows that. The point is that, if you manage to hold it you ARE ahead.
*but a protoss can transition out of it*
yes he can. From a one base version into a natural while you have yours up already. You already have an ebay and probably medivac tech too.
*they can just do a 2 base version and do similar damage*
The 2 base version comes 1 minute later (Stim ready), this is seriously not the thing you should be complaining about. This is more a 2 base timing than anything else. You can have siege tanks out to deal with it pretty easily - which on most maps can defend your main blink in points and your natural.
I'm sure someone else will say this by the time I hit 'post,' but I think you're missing the point. If he goes blink all-in, and you respond accordingly, you're ahead (usually). If he goes DT, and you respond accordingly, you're ahead. If he goes 7 gate, or FE double forge robo, or proxy oracle, and you respond accordingly, you're ahead. But since scouting which is incredibly difficult, and for some of those you have to be doing the response before you can reasonably scout it, and an even slightly incorrect read can mean either a loss or devastating damage, it's small comfort that, if you happened to have a map hack or your opponent's build order notes, you'd be ahead.
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I think the Mothership core is fine as a unit by itself. Planetary nexus is strong but okayisch do to medivac boost and fast mutas. Time warp looks a bit too "big" in my opinion but that a detail.
My problem with it is that it doesn´t add something strategic to the game. It doesn´t matter what you do between 1 base allin or fast 3rd there is no reason not to build it. You can´t read something like "two early sentrys he will expand" or something like that. It is in every possible build right now which makes early scouting almost useless.
My suggestion on it is to nerf the building time that it works kinda like the orbital with terran. Double or even triple the building time so the P have to make a decision to make and that the most economical opening for P doesn´t include a MSC like the most economical build for Zerg doesn't include gas for example.
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On December 19 2013 13:36 ETisME wrote:
protoss will get nerfed, but not because of tournament balance data etc, those have never been a big cause for blizzard to act.
but the overwhelming number of protoss on ladder will.
so they might not nerf blink stalker or oracle, but most possibly the mothershipcore, either its vision or changes to nexus cannon/time warp.
nexus cannon is not likely to get nerfed though, due to its importance on PvP and PvZ
time warp should get nerf because it is too strong of a spell for an early aggression.
Time warp and mothership core vision change could fix blink stalker and then terran doesn't need to prepare so much for early game defense
Though if they are smart they will revert the oracle speed change since it did not actually do what they wanted. But they won't. And thus I will remain disappointed in what it has done to PvP in some cases. PvP used to be so good...
The mothership core does need to be tweaked. I've said like 5 times in this thread that they should consider a speed nerf to it so that it is used for what it was initially designed for, base defence, and not offence. I liked the old beta mothership core. It made way more sense from a design perspective. The new mothership core is kinda dumb. Would I miss those sweet Nony-style recall timings? Absolutely. But if that means no more stupidly fast blink timings in PvT and PvP then I am all for it.
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On December 19 2013 15:46 USvBleakill wrote:
I think the Mothership core is fine as a unit by itself. Planetary nexus is strong but okayisch do to medivac boost and fast mutas. Time warp looks a bit too "big" in my opinion but that a detail.
My problem with it is that it doesn´t add something strategic to the game. It doesn´t matter what you do between 1 base allin or fast 3rd there is no reason not to build it. You can´t read something like "two early sentrys he will expand" or something like that. It is in every possible build right now which makes early scouting almost useless.
My suggestion on it is to nerf the building time that it works kinda like the orbital with terran. Double or even triple the building time so the P have to make a decision to make and that the most economical opening for P doesn´t include a MSC like the most economical build for Zerg doesn't include gas for example.
it adds a lot of new strategy in hots, especially PvZ
I also feel time warp is way too good of a spell to be casted twice instantly with that AoE if the energy is full.
not to mention it is way too punishing on terran when they are repositioning the bio to defend the blink all in and got time warped on the ramp
On December 19 2013 15:48 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 13:36 ETisME wrote:
protoss will get nerfed, but not because of tournament balance data etc, those have never been a big cause for blizzard to act.
but the overwhelming number of protoss on ladder will.
so they might not nerf blink stalker or oracle, but most possibly the mothershipcore, either its vision or changes to nexus cannon/time warp.
nexus cannon is not likely to get nerfed though, due to its importance on PvP and PvZ
time warp should get nerf because it is too strong of a spell for an early aggression.
Time warp and mothership core vision change could fix blink stalker and then terran doesn't need to prepare so much for early game defense Though if they are smart they will revert the oracle speed change since it did not actually do what they wanted. But they won't. And thus I will remain disappointed in what it has done to PvP in some cases. PvP used to be so good... The mothership core does need to be tweaked. I've said like 5 times in this thread that they should consider a speed nerf to it so that it is used for what it was initially designed for, base defence, and not offence. I liked the old beta mothership core. It made way more sense from a design perspective. The new mothership core is kinda dumb. Would I miss those sweet Nony-style recall timings? Absolutely. But if that means no more stupidly fast blink timings in PvT and PvP then I am all for it.
I think rather than a speed nerf, an increase in energy cost for pulse beam or just a range nerf would be fine imo.
I don't mind it being an uber fast unit that show case a protoss good control if only it is more vulnerable than what it is now.
A bit like hellion poking where queen can still damage it a little while hellion is doing its role to kill creep tumors.
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Move back warhound.But terran need planetary fortess for it.Or making in planetary fortess.Not chesee but macro unit.
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On December 19 2013 16:08 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 15:46 USvBleakill wrote:
I think the Mothership core is fine as a unit by itself. Planetary nexus is strong but okayisch do to medivac boost and fast mutas. Time warp looks a bit too "big" in my opinion but that a detail.
My problem with it is that it doesn´t add something strategic to the game. It doesn´t matter what you do between 1 base allin or fast 3rd there is no reason not to build it. You can´t read something like "two early sentrys he will expand" or something like that. It is in every possible build right now which makes early scouting almost useless.
My suggestion on it is to nerf the building time that it works kinda like the orbital with terran. Double or even triple the building time so the P have to make a decision to make and that the most economical opening for P doesn´t include a MSC like the most economical build for Zerg doesn't include gas for example. it adds a lot of new strategy in hots, especially PvZ I also feel time warp is way too good of a spell to be casted twice instantly with that AoE if the energy is full. not to mention it is way too punishing on terran when they are repositioning the bio to defend the blink all in and got time warped on the ramp Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 15:48 Ben... wrote:On December 19 2013 13:36 ETisME wrote:
protoss will get nerfed, but not because of tournament balance data etc, those have never been a big cause for blizzard to act.
but the overwhelming number of protoss on ladder will.
so they might not nerf blink stalker or oracle, but most possibly the mothershipcore, either its vision or changes to nexus cannon/time warp.
nexus cannon is not likely to get nerfed though, due to its importance on PvP and PvZ
time warp should get nerf because it is too strong of a spell for an early aggression.
Time warp and mothership core vision change could fix blink stalker and then terran doesn't need to prepare so much for early game defense Though if they are smart they will revert the oracle speed change since it did not actually do what they wanted. But they won't. And thus I will remain disappointed in what it has done to PvP in some cases. PvP used to be so good... The mothership core does need to be tweaked. I've said like 5 times in this thread that they should consider a speed nerf to it so that it is used for what it was initially designed for, base defence, and not offence. I liked the old beta mothership core. It made way more sense from a design perspective. The new mothership core is kinda dumb. Would I miss those sweet Nony-style recall timings? Absolutely. But if that means no more stupidly fast blink timings in PvT and PvP then I am all for it. I think rather than a speed nerf, an increase in energy cost for pulse beam or just a range nerf would be fine imo. I don't mind it being an uber fast unit that show case a protoss good control if only it is more vulnerable than what it is now. A bit like hellion poking where queen can still damage it a little while hellion is doing its role to kill creep tumors.
Yeah but the problem is the Oracle doesn't show off skill. Hellion vs. Drone/Ling can be exciting to watch because Hellions are ground units and therefore positioning is everything - they can block movement, they can have their movement blocked, they can line up their AOE attacks for extra damage. It takes time for them to get into position and they don't kill workers as quickly, which gives the Zerg lots of opportunity to block/evade. In some game this year a Zerg planted an Evo Chamber to wall in a bunch of Hellions that had gotten into his base, and proceeded to slaughter them. That was sick
The Oracle takes no skill to use and doesn't allow the opponent to show off any skill in responding (except speed of spotting things on the minimap, but literally every single unit in the game tests that skill already). It's dead in the water.
Think about air units that are fun to watch, like Mutalisks. They're super fast, super responsive to control, they're versatile enough to pick off stray tanks, depots, and Medivacs, the high numbers in which they travel make them very susceptible to aoe damage and if the zerg forgets about them for one second, they can straight up die to a pack of marines. It's important for a zerg to maintain his Muta flock so attacking with them always has a high risk/high reward factor, whereas if a Protoss loses an Oracle, whatever, it's not like he needed it for anything anyway.
On December 19 2013 16:14 Gamlet wrote:
Move back warhound.But terran need planetary fortess for it.Or making in planetary fortess.Not chesee but macro unit.
We don't need more macro units. We need more micro units.
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On December 19 2013 13:01 Bagi wrote:
I love how his post history is filled with balance whine about hellbats and mutas too.
When does S1 WCS start anyway? I was thinking that this so-called off season would be the perfect time to try some even more drastic balance and design changes. Feels like Blizzard is missing a golden opportunity here, or maybe they are about to do that in the coming weeks.
Yes, that is a good idea.
What I would do if I were in Blizzard's balance team would be to make another call to action and make a map with following changes to MSC
1. Sight radius reduced from 14 to something like 11 or 10
2. Time warp needs to be researched in cybernetic core and cost somewhere between 50/50 to 100/100. Research should be relatively fast so that the all in is not overly delayed (and rendered useless) but it would be slowed down and would be bigger investment for protoss.
Numbers can of course be tweaked but I feel the main problem of early game is MSC.
Why? Because MSC is completely safe during the blink all in (unless protoss screwes up) which means you can't really delay or stop the push, it is impossible for protoss to blink in an overly defensive spot because of the huge sight radius. On a defensive side, it also prevents any reaper scout after first reaper since there is no going around it, again because of the sight radius.
As far as time warp goes, I feel like having advantage in mobility because of blink spell and also an ability to slow time (on ramps, or to slow down unit movement, SCV bunker repair) is just too much.
A test map could determine if implementing both changes is too much but something really needs to be done about MSC.
You would still be able to photon overcharge without using chronoboost enery so protoss still has stronger defense and can boost economy at the same time so I dont think this would weaken protoss defense in any way, it would just weaken their all ins.
Proxy oracle is just one build, MSC has way more impact on the early game TvP. Even more than queens had in WoL after queen buff. So this is the unit Blizzard should look into.
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I like the idea of making a MSC ability researchable, but I would rather have it be the photon overcharge. A large part of what makes protoss all-ins so stupidly powerful is the terran inability to counter attack and deal damage themselves, and protoss players are getting away with ridiculous greed because of the ability to deflect any early aggression with PO. Make it an upgrade and protoss will need to actually invest into their defense again, or possibly skip it but leave themselves vulnerable if their aggression doesn't pay off.
Would this hinder protoss ability to gateway expand PvZ? They would still have the MSC for dps and time warps against early lings and stuff.
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On December 19 2013 10:40 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 10:26 Survivor61316 wrote:
He just did a two base blink stalker build..with obs and a msc for some reason..against a gm terran who had stim and medivacs and a bunker being repaired by 6 scvs..and just crushed the terran I'd have to see a replay of this. I don't buy that a Terran that had all of that already set up (implying a delayed all-in) could lose to stalkers without some sort of glaring macro mistake or just utter sacrifice of production buildings for faster tech/upgrades. And I definitely don't trust you as an unbiased reporter.
http://www.twitch.tv/demuslim/b/488490044
Starts at 2:12:30
He also analyses the replay around 10 minutes from that time point.
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I also like the idea of MSC ability research because I think that the best way to improve balance between early game and late game is creating a improved research system.
Rigth now if you overnerf a unit (MSC) it will become useless or it will have a narrow utility window, in the past: Reapers WOL, in the future, Oracles (¿?).
But if you have a T2/T3 research which improve utility/stats of those units, they will become viable in late game. This way maybe we will have less openings but we will have more options in mid/late and the game will be more interesting.
Well maybe in next game.
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On December 19 2013 18:05 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 10:40 RampancyTW wrote:On December 19 2013 10:26 Survivor61316 wrote:
He just did a two base blink stalker build..with obs and a msc for some reason..against a gm terran who had stim and medivacs and a bunker being repaired by 6 scvs..and just crushed the terran I'd have to see a replay of this. I don't buy that a Terran that had all of that already set up (implying a delayed all-in) could lose to stalkers without some sort of glaring macro mistake or just utter sacrifice of production buildings for faster tech/upgrades. And I definitely don't trust you as an unbiased reporter. http://www.twitch.tv/demuslim/b/488490044Starts at 2:12:30 He also analyses the replay around 10 minutes from that time point.
Just watched the game, kinda ridiculous how poorly he executed the build, the only good thing he did was blinking back. He was supply block and reached 1200 minerals. haha.
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Northern Ireland26391 Posts
I agree that the off season for WCS is when big changes need done. Hopefully this occurs!
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On December 19 2013 19:01 Wombat_NI wrote:
I agree that the off season for WCS is when big changes need done. Hopefully this occurs!
You mean the period we are in now? I'm afraid those changes were the oracle buff, siege tank change, weapon combination, roach b-speed and WM nerf.
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yes he can. From a one base version into a natural while you have yours up already. You already have an ebay and probably medivac tech too. '
No. From my experience the only way to hold off blink all ins is to get 3 barracks (before other tech) and 3 bunkers in different locations. Then you delay your starport tech for a long time because your only mining off 1 base and you also aren't fully using Mules since you can't know for certain whether DT's are coming or not.
So the protoss player can often times start mining from his natural before you do it (remember he can make it impossible for you to down the ramp untill medivacs are out due to Forcefields on ramp).
You are probably still a bit ahead as terran, but the risk/reward is just absolutely insane.
That's not even taking into account all the scouting you do as terran in the early game, and even then your still just guessing.
If you see two stalkers early game and no expo you have to assume blink-all in. But if it instead is VR all-in then your bunker positioning needs to be completely different and you will probably just lose the game outright if you didn't build 3 bunkers close to each other.
If you scout twilight, it could still be DT's. But since you can't afford ebay early game and also hold off blink stalker allin, your best bet is to just save scans --> which reduces your efficiency vs blink stalker all in.
The most lucky outcome is if you see two early stalkers + twilight council out of 1 base. Then you can be very sure its blink stalker all in, however even then it may just be 3-gate light pressure with fast expo behind it. Then you get up your 3 bunkers, set 10 or so scv's to auto repair bunkers.
Meanwhile protoss is teching and getting up a superior econ behind it.
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On December 19 2013 14:20 weikor wrote:
How hard is it to see that the matchup PvT is pretty balanced, yet much harder for terran to play in the early stages of the game (the place where 80% of games seem to be decided by the amount of whining)
Blink all ins are frustrating to play against. Everyone knows that. The point is that, if you manage to hold it you ARE ahead.
*but a protoss can transition out of it*
yes he can. From a one base version into a natural while you have yours up already. You already have an ebay and probably medivac tech too.
*they can just do a 2 base version and do similar damage*
The 2 base version comes 1 minute later (Stim ready), this is seriously not the thing you should be complaining about. This is more a 2 base timing than anything else. You can have siege tanks out to deal with it pretty easily - which on most maps can defend your main blink in points and your natural.
This almost sounds like WoL.
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On December 20 2013 05:29 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 14:20 weikor wrote:
How hard is it to see that the matchup PvT is pretty balanced, yet much harder for terran to play in the early stages of the game (the place where 80% of games seem to be decided by the amount of whining)
Blink all ins are frustrating to play against. Everyone knows that. The point is that, if you manage to hold it you ARE ahead.
*but a protoss can transition out of it*
yes he can. From a one base version into a natural while you have yours up already. You already have an ebay and probably medivac tech too.
*they can just do a 2 base version and do similar damage*
The 2 base version comes 1 minute later (Stim ready), this is seriously not the thing you should be complaining about. This is more a 2 base timing than anything else. You can have siege tanks out to deal with it pretty easily - which on most maps can defend your main blink in points and your natural.
This almost sounds like WoL.
The difference is Mamacore, which by default makes blink play that much stronger.
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On December 20 2013 06:45 Ana_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2013 05:29 Sabu113 wrote:On December 19 2013 14:20 weikor wrote:
How hard is it to see that the matchup PvT is pretty balanced, yet much harder for terran to play in the early stages of the game (the place where 80% of games seem to be decided by the amount of whining)
Blink all ins are frustrating to play against. Everyone knows that. The point is that, if you manage to hold it you ARE ahead.
*but a protoss can transition out of it*
yes he can. From a one base version into a natural while you have yours up already. You already have an ebay and probably medivac tech too.
*they can just do a 2 base version and do similar damage*
The 2 base version comes 1 minute later (Stim ready), this is seriously not the thing you should be complaining about. This is more a 2 base timing than anything else. You can have siege tanks out to deal with it pretty easily - which on most maps can defend your main blink in points and your natural.
This almost sounds like WoL. The difference is Mamacore, which by default makes blink play that much stronger.
14 vision no need to delay for robotech, cheaper, combat support, get out of jail free card AND defensive transition in one?
Swiss army knife of SC2 :D
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EPT
