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On December 19 2013 00:42 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 00:37 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
dude you seem to be kinda partial.
could you give me a build that is designed to punish over reliance on MSC? The 5 min 2 medivac 16 marine stim push? This troll just said stim bio with medivacs holds all the Protoss all ins. I think mass carriers also hold off the 1-1-1 back in WoL as well.
I figured that thx, i just wanted him to say it.
but ill try the 5 min 2 medevac 16 marine stim push. Ill keep you posted on how I did with it. ( shiiiit this might even be the new meta! )
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Stim bio and medivacs will kill any Protoss allin that doesn't have splash damage as soon as they are out. Until they're done, you hold on using infantry, bunkers, and a couple of widow mines. Is that really so crazy? I'm just responding to the guy saying that different Protoss allins need radically different responses. Infantry, bunkers. If it's DT or Oracle, a Turret. What is so radically different here?
If instead of raging at Protoss, you actually take a minute to think about what your response is to every single Protoss all-in.. you'd realize its 1) see allin coming 2) build bunkers and turtle until stim 3) as soon as you've repelled the cheese go drop him. Maybe you start a 3rd CC in your main as well. That's about it...
Reaper expand is not the only viable build. I've seen Bomber go CC first and hold against early Oracle harass without losing any SCVs. CC first into 3 rax marines does just fine.
I think you guys have just convinced yourselves that your situation is so depserate that you're no longer willing to actually listen to logical arguments or evidence from actual matches that actually happened.
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On December 19 2013 00:27 DinoMight wrote:
-Stim bio and Medivacs beats every Protoss allin.
Too bad they all (those done out of 1 base) hit before you have any of them then? Your game knowledge is seriously so horrible.
Turrets counter both DT and Oracles. Reaper has also been buffed to be very good at scouting. So scout the cheese, build bunkers (that you can salvage later) and you will hold 90% of cheese. You often hear casters say stuff like "he's going to be in a lot of trouble as soon as stim finishes." There's a reason for that.
What a non-argument... No one cares about what casters say. Reapers, despite being a great scouting tool, are not always enough because some openings can proxy their tech anywhere (and searching the whole map to find said building in time is impossible). On most maps, the Reaper also has to be sacrificed each time you want to see what's in his base, so Protoss is free to reactively change his plan and go back into macro mode (a smooth transition thanks to the MSC + the fact Terran is contained in his base until Medivacs, which have to be delayed because Bunkers cost 100 minerals now and only bring back 75 later, so they're not "free" at all and do disrupt your build order a lot) since you're left in the dark from there. See Blink Stalkers expand for instance.
-More Protoss players does not mean something is imbalanced. It just means there are more Protoss players. Maybe Protoss units look prettier and that attracts more people.
Or maybe Protoss is the easiest and the strongest race, hence why it's overrepresented at Master/GM level? Your dumb argument about petty personal preferences would make some sense if the player base was like that from A to Z, but as it stands, we have roughly the same distribution globally, yet at GM level we have 20-25% Terran and 43-45% Protoss for months, worldwide. But I guess this is because having your primary unit look like a Star Wars creature is more appealing than a standard soldier, right? No. Zergs also had 40-45% representation at GM level at the end of WoL because the race was easy, safe and forgiving. Guess what the MSC did to HotS Protoss?
-There are Terran builds designed to punish over-reliance on the Mothership core. Allowing a Protoss to build nothing but a MsC is your own fault. It's akin to letting a Terran go 3CC off 1 bunker. A small group of stimmed bio can focus down a Nexus quite quickly.
No, there are none. You don't even know your own race... No Protoss builds a single MSC and is done with it. Protoss players build a few units from their first gate, either pure Stalkers or a mix of Stalkers and Sentries. Besides, you apparently failed to realize that HotS Protoss also take their gas earlier than WoL Protoss, so they have even more extra gas for tech.
-Win rates in the pro scene fluctuate in every matchup. For the last few months, Protoss is finally achieving notable results. Is it really that bad? Terran and Zerg have dominated for the entire history of professional SC2 prior to that.
No one cares about prior balance when it comes to what happens now. Or are we to say Zergs don't have the right to have a fair game because of the end of WoL? Stop wasting our time with your vindictive conception of balance fueled by the eternal trauma of the long-gone 1-1-1 era.
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On December 19 2013 00:27 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 00:05 MTAC wrote:
The issue ?
- Issue is that Terran is stuck on the same Bioplay since 2+ years.
- Issue is that Terran have only 2 builds who both goes toward lategame or if the toss don't go HT first, 12min SCVtrain.
- Issue is that toss dictate early game with 10 different all-ins, most of them can be a macro opening even if they don't do a lot of damage, and most of them demands very different defenses from the T point of view.
- Issue is that toss dictate the lategame with the deathball too.
- Issue is that we have less and less T players and more and more P players, both on ladder and tournaments: down to 20%T and up to 50%P of total players sometimes.
- Issue is that while HoTS terran do the same thing/build than in Wol, MSC allows the toss to not spend ANY MONEY on sentry. That's like 4 to 6 hundred gas in a macro game, faster tech/ups etc.... T don't have new units on this MU, nor any new builds, while toss do the same thing than before, but with faster tech, faster ups etc... while in mid/end Wol, as frustrating as PvT was, winrates were more even than now ?
- Issue is that the game is slowly loosing playerbase and viewerbase because of that kind of things, and that I don't play T anymore, because playing 10 matchs versus P 5 versus Z for 1 versus T is just the most boring ladder experience ever. You're wrong. -More Protoss players does not mean something is imbalanced. It just means there are more Protoss players. Maybe Protoss units look prettier and that attracts more people. More people play Pikachu than other characters in Super Smash Brothers but that doesn't mean he's imba (far from it).
Yes, GM players and pros chose races based on which units are pretty and shiny. That makes much sense. I heard that argument plenty of times and it is still not plausible.
Go watch Bomber's stream and you will experience TvP issues first hand.
Day 1: He is matched against player named Desrow 9 times. He probably doesn't know who he is or how he plays. Despite Bomber being clearly better player he loses 5-4.
Day 2: He again plays against Desrow but this time he is already familiar with his play. The result? He wins 8-0 against him.
This is the problem of protoss, They have huge advantage over terran due to variety of builds. This enables weaker players to win against better players because they get advantage right from the start.
On tournaments when most players know each other and their playstyles, it is much even game even though protoss still has an advantage in the early game. So tournament win rates are not so bad, but ladder representation in ML and GM looks terrible.
I mean it happens on pro level as well (Patience emerging from nothingness and winning against accomplished players like Innovation and MMA) or Stardust who was also a big hit at one point. Or Duckdeok (or however is he called). But it is much more pronounced on the ladder.
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On December 19 2013 00:53 DinoMight wrote:
Stim bio and medivacs will kill any Protoss allin that doesn't have splash damage as soon as they are out. Until they're done, you hold on using infantry, bunkers, and a couple of widow mines. Is that really so crazy? I'm just responding to the guy saying that different Protoss allins need radically different responses. Infantry, bunkers. If it's DT or Oracle, a Turret. What is so radically different here?
If instead of raging at Protoss, you actually take a minute to think about what your response is to every single Protoss all-in.. you'd realize its 1) see allin coming 2) build bunkers and turtle until stim 3) as soon as you've repelled the cheese go drop him. Maybe you start a 3rd CC in your main as well. That's about it...
Reaper expand is not the only viable build. I've seen Bomber go CC first and hold against early Oracle harass without losing any SCVs. CC first into 3 rax marines does just fine.
I think you guys have just convinced yourselves that your situation is so depserate that you're no longer willing to actually listen to logical arguments or evidence from actual matches that actually happened.
Of course you can try builds without a Reaper. But check jjakji vs elfi, Akilon Wastes, ASUS ROG and you will see how good they are against 1-base all-ins. jjakji opens gas 15 expand (an even safer opening), but bad luck, elfi goes Blink all-in. SCVs have zero way to go past a Stalker to check what Protoss is doing, so jjakji cannot know and have to blindly guess. He assumed something frontal would come but bad luck again, he guessed wrong and his Mines were useless against the Blink all-in. No Reaper = increased odds of build order losses because even if you know Protoss is up to something, you cannot scout what's going on if Protoss bothers to hide it (proxy, or build in a corner). No Reaper = Terran is even more vulnerable to the coinflippy nature of early game TvP.
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You don't even try to understand him (Dinomight), but whatever, i won't get into this discussion, it's pretty much on the level of "mimi you are stupid and i know everything better"
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I'm obviously not saying stim and medivacs are done before allins hit. In fact I've clarified myself in a subsequent post that people have completely disregarded. Stim and medivacs are the goal. Bunkers, repair, and a couple of widow mines can buy you enough time to get there if you scout correctly.
This is hopeless.
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On December 19 2013 00:53 DinoMight wrote:
Stim bio and medivacs will kill any Protoss allin that doesn't have splash damage as soon as they are out. Until they're done, you hold on using infantry, bunkers, and a couple of widow mines. Is that really so crazy? I'm just responding to the guy saying that different Protoss allins need radically different responses. Infantry, bunkers. If it's DT or Oracle, a Turret. What is so radically different here?
If instead of raging at Protoss, you actually take a minute to think about what your response is to every single Protoss all-in.. you'd realize its 1) see allin coming 2) build bunkers and turtle until stim 3) as soon as you've repelled the cheese go drop him. Maybe you start a 3rd CC in your main as well. That's about it...
Reaper expand is not the only viable build. I've seen Bomber go CC first and hold against early Oracle harass without losing any SCVs. CC first into 3 rax marines does just fine.
I think you guys have just convinced yourselves that your situation is so depserate that you're no longer willing to actually listen to logical arguments or evidence from actual matches that actually happened.
Bomber's CC first no scout build only really works on big maps where the Protoss likely won't do the Msc, zealot, stalker poke. This poke will do damage vs the CC first build.
It is easy to pick specific matches to show that all builds can be countered. There are numerous examples of 1-1-1s being held, P beating WoL Zerg BL/ infest or with vortex, T beating BL/infestors with Viking splits and surrounds. Hell, how has WoL been Terran and Zerg dominated when MC is the highest earner?
The fact is, pro T still lose a lot of games to all ins from P. That in itself isn't an issue as long as that if the all-in is defended, the Terran has the upper hand. But with stuff like fast oracles, even if it doesn't do damage, the Protoss can transition without really being behind.
As for the blink all-in, it is even worse. With good MSC and blink control, p can still win if they catch the Terran slightly out of position even if bunkers are up. If the Terran defends well, the blink stalkers can still do a soft contain and the Terran just has to keep build units because with warp gates, the Protoss can commit or chose to go back to macro build at any time. If you think blink stalkers are bad once stim and medivacs are out, then you need to improve your control and multitask. Yes, it you fight head on, stim bio will win. But you can still keep the Terran in his base until you get your AoE tech out. Stim bio witch medivacs cannot chase down blink stalkers.
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I'm going to say that DinoMight doesn't actually play the game.
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On December 19 2013 01:17 DinoMight wrote:
if you scout correctly.
Sorry, but how are you supposed to scout correctly if you haven't done a reaper expand?
I'm anticipating that you'll say to scan, but I don't think you should even try to start that discussion.
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On December 19 2013 01:17 DinoMight wrote:
I'm obviously not saying stim and medivacs are done before allins hit. In fact I've clarified myself in a subsequent post that people have completely disregarded. Stim and medivacs are the goal. Bunkers, repair, and a couple of widow mines can buy you enough time to get there if you scout correctly.
This is hopeless.
You are hopeless. You mentioned that bomber's CC in 3 rax is viable. How do you scout correctly? You mean the Terran has to coin flip correctly, then yes, he is fine.
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On December 19 2013 01:21 Chaggi wrote:
I'm going to say that DinoMight doesn't actually play the game.
Pretty much. I think he just watch pro games and find games where Protoss all-ins were defended and concludes that because all Protoss all ins can be defended, there is no problem. He doesn't realise that the Terran had to cut some big corners or play overly safe in order to achieve that.
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On December 19 2013 01:17 DinoMight wrote:
I'm obviously not saying stim and medivacs are done before allins hit. In fact I've clarified myself in a subsequent post that people have completely disregarded. Stim and medivacs are the goal. Bunkers, repair, and a couple of widow mines can buy you enough time to get there if you scout correctly.
This is hopeless.
We understand what you are saying, but you are oversimplifying the problem. Sure if you scout exactly what is protoss doing and you manage to scout it in time to prepare for it you will be fine, but you can never have complete picture even if you are a very experienced gamer.
Early game TvP become a coin flip, a luck based period of the game.
The better you get with scouting the better protoss gets with denying scouting. MSC has 14 vision range you will spot reaper trying to enter your base a mile away. With MSC and a stalker you can deny any scout past the initial 4 min reaper. And what you see at that time doesn't always tell you what is protoss doing. Even if you spot a missing pylon or any other tell, you still need to find out is it blink or proxy oracle or DT etc.
For example, Taeja actually plays protoss on GM level, he has insight on the matchup from both sides, but I remember the games which he instantly lost because he was unable to scout in time or he misread the situation.
Another example is Innovation vs. Crank (or Alicia not sure) in ATC. He scouted with his first reaper, he even managed to get inside again and saw blink research. After that he scanned and confirmed at least 4 gates. So he had almost all the info but still couldn't hold.
And it is not just about scouting. In that game, it was a 2 base blink so if he stays at his natural he is probably instantly dead on a map like Star Station. If he lifts, he gets contained on 1 base by 2 base protoss with blink stalkers and MSC+sentry.
So whatever he choses, he is behind, even if protoss doesn't kill him or does enough damage. Why? Because even if he counter attacks, those units protoss already has + MSC and photon overcharge will help him survive until templars or colosus are out.
So "just learn to scout" is such a generic advice that really doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. We are not talking about cc 1st on the low ground every game MKP, we are talking about people who actually scout and understand the game and matchup (Inno, Taeja etc.)
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On December 19 2013 01:17 DinoMight wrote:
I'm obviously not saying stim and medivacs are done before allins hit. In fact I've clarified myself in a subsequent post that people have completely disregarded. Stim and medivacs are the goal.
Wow, thanks. Terran players had not yet understood this complex purpose. And to say that during all this time, we thought teching to Battlecruisers was the solution! We were such fools.
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On December 19 2013 01:17 DinoMight wrote:
This is hopeless.
Of course it's hopeless.
a) It's pretty clear that protoss has more viable all-ins than terran has, so I'm not sure why you're talking about that.
b) It's pretty clear that terran is using only a narrow set of comps so yeah I can see how it's boring to play (well I could see it in 2010 as well but that's another question).
c) It's pretty clear that you're engaged in an argument where no one will ever back up and no conclusion can ever be reached.
So yeah, whatever, keep going.
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On December 19 2013 01:40 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 01:17 DinoMight wrote:
I'm obviously not saying stim and medivacs are done before allins hit. In fact I've clarified myself in a subsequent post that people have completely disregarded. Stim and medivacs are the goal. Wow, thanks. Terran players had not yet understood this complex purpose. And to say that during all this time, we thought teching to Battlecruisers was the solution! We were such fools.
You are trying to tell me my 1 base proxy BC build isnt viable outside of Gold league?
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On December 19 2013 01:17 DinoMight wrote:
I'm obviously not saying stim and medivacs are done before allins hit. In fact I've clarified myself in a subsequent post that people have completely disregarded. Stim and medivacs are the goal. Bunkers, repair, and a couple of widow mines can buy you enough time to get there if you scout correctly.
This is hopeless.
To quote myself from earlier
On December 16 2013 03:34 Pursuit_ wrote:
I haven't really been following any of the discussion here and it seems like an awful late to sort through, so I'll just leave my two cents here-
I feel like TvP is imbalanced not because of any hard numbers (i.e. if Protoss does X nothing Terran can do will stop them) but rather that Protoss has many options that all require different responses from Terran while Terran has only a few choices that can force a reponse from protoss. In addition, many Protoss openings have the potential to win the game, and a decent number of them (blink stalker / proxy oracle) can transition into a macro game just fine, while Terran has only 1 or 2 (reaper FE and arguably CC first) openings that can consistently transition into a macro game and neither has the potential to do damage. This means Protoss completely dictates the pace of the early game, with the potential to win the game or get a huge advantage but almost never coming out behind.
Mid-Late game TvP is still changing / evolving, and I think we need more time to tell if it's imbalanced either way.
So basically, you're agreeing that Terran only has 1-2 options in the early game (some variation of reaper into bio while working towards stim + medivacs) while Protoss has a plethora of all-ins and gimmicks at least a few of which can transition just fine into macro games (oracle, 1 or 2 base blink stalker, dt) in addition to extremely stable / greedy macro builds (MsC expand into double forge robo)
Yet earlier in the thread you're telling Terran to experiment with 'new' builds. How the hell are we supposed to do this and survive? We're bottle necked into just a couple different openings (all of which look essentially the same anyway) to be able to react to and deal with all of the potential Protoss all-ins, while Protoss has almost nothing to fear from Terran (I think at most Terran can force Protoss to make an obs or cannon with a widow mine drop? Even then you can just ignore it and accept losing 1 probe every 45 seconds for awhile, and since it's the only thing Protoss really has to prepare for they almost always scout it).
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On December 18 2013 12:49 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 12:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 18 2013 12:18 playa wrote:
I never lost to mech prepatch, outside of like 2 games... now anyone can win. There's a reason they reverted the change in beta. If they don't win, it's because they don't abuse banshees. Given that you need air units to beat anyone decent, there's a timer on you to win the game, since it's now next to impossible to transition to air units. I just think it's shitty to be forced to play all-in attacks, non stop, and hope the terran doesn't know how make buildings infront of his units. Sounds like an exhilarating game.
There's no way that the current state of t vs p mech is harder than it was in BW. It's like playing p vs p and massing void rays and the other guy not being able to make ht's or void rays himself. O, but there's a timing window to beat the guy before he gets a lot. If you think mech is bad now, you're either clueless or you're still going off that one time you played it prepatch. Dude what are you talking about?? Any competent toss can wreck mech. Idk where youre getting that banshees are a part of a mech army either, because theyre not. But even if the terran does try to mix them in, not only does that severely cut into the ground army, but stalkers should easily destroy them. And between immortals and archons, a mech ground army just cant pump damage out fast enough to prevent the toss from closing and steamrolling them. Throw in a few colossi to thin hellbat numbers, and even chargelots become tanky, high damage dealing units. Hell even storm can destroy a mech army as long as archons go in first and tank the initial tank volley. Basically, mech is only powerful if you can prevent the enemy from closing on the tanks, which you cannot stop the toss from doing. My buddy who plays random has a 85% win rate in TvP. Because he doesn't have great APM, he mechs EVERY SINGLE GAME. Banshees are a core unit in his composition. With Ravens and Vikings you can deny Protoss all detection. PDD denies Stalker shots. It's quite good actually. In the early game he harasses with Widow Mines and Hellions to keep Protoss on the defensive while he gets his army together. I'm not saying it will work for everyone, but it works for him. Maybe if more Terrans tried things like this we'd have different strategies beside "suicide Medivacs into a turtling Protoss for 10 minutes and then complain when you lose."
I was a Terran main who switched back to random, and my TvX perrcentages were all really high. What's your point? He could be losing lots of games as Zerg or Protoss and have abysmal rates thus causing him to play lower level opponents compared to what he normally should.
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On December 19 2013 01:33 Qwerty85 wrote:
Another example is Innovation vs. Crank (or Alicia not sure) in ATC. He scouted with his first reaper, he even managed to get inside again and saw blink research. After that he scanned and confirmed at least 4 gates. So he had almost all the info but still couldn't hold.
I actually saw that game. It was Crank. Innovation's build was 2 rax for a while, vs. 7 gates from Crank. The outcome was not really surprising to be honest.
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On December 19 2013 02:10 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 01:33 Qwerty85 wrote:
Another example is Innovation vs. Crank (or Alicia not sure) in ATC. He scouted with his first reaper, he even managed to get inside again and saw blink research. After that he scanned and confirmed at least 4 gates. So he had almost all the info but still couldn't hold. I actually saw that game. It was Crank. Innovation's build was 2 rax for a while, vs. 7 gates from Crank. The outcome was not really surprising to be honest.
Well that is the part of the problem. It is easy to reduce it to 7 gateways > 2 rax. Even though he scouted almost everything and after finding up what is he up against, responded like he should, at the moment he found out, it was already too late for him even though he scouted it early
Why? Because he tried to add some variety in his play (making 1 less rax and getting faster tech - medivacs) which is something terran isn't supposed to do because you die. If he opened wm drop he would die. If he opened helions he would die.
If he opened (idk, banshees) it would be the same.
All those openers can maybe be good against one thing but it will screw you up against anything else.
You basically have one build order you can do and that is reaper expand into 3 rax and medivacs with all being ready to go around 10 min. That is it. Only variety after that is taking a third or making even more rax before the third.
Try to do anything else and you are dead even if you know what is your opponent doing.
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EPT
