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On December 18 2013 17:21 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +Final tally: 136-145 PvT, 47%
Now count up the number of times Innovation, Maru, Bomber, Taeja, MMA, Polt, jjakji showed up on that list. (26)
Now count up the number of times Dear, sOs, Rain, Trap, HerO, Naniwa, Parting showed up on that list. (13) Do you just kind of assume that Patience, Squirtle, Duckdeok, Stardust, San, Avenge, Alicia, Crank, Oz, JYP, Trap and MC are terrible players by default and should never get any wins? With the lineup you 'chose' to write, it still seems pretty balanced to me. The balance patch we had awhile ago Oracle Buff, Widow Mine nerf, Combined Upgrades buff, is a kind of patch that will really hurt Terran right on release, but will after some time benefit Terran the most. We get more gimmick, you get less, but you also gained a core buff. Not to say that the Protoss players that are wrecking face right now deserve just as much credit as all the Terran stars. Look at Taeja and MMA and say that you cannot be the most dominant player on planet earth if you have the skill.
Lol, this is just a stupid comment. All-ins are part of the game. Having strong all-ins definitely have a huge impact on macro games. Let's say there was a terran all in/aggressive build that forced the protoss to get 6 sentries and robo to defend before taking their third. That would change the meta game greatly. It would force the 3rd to be delay thus everything is a step slow. RTS are games which slowballs.
Did you know infestors/BLs were never buffed when they were deemed OP. The problem was that the Queen buff made the zerg too safe at the beginning so they could macro up faster. At the pro level, getting an upgrade and slightly bigger army 30 seconds earlier is huge.
Imagine if terran got stim without research. Eventhough all bio terran end up researching it anyways, it shouldn't affect the mid game. But it does, because it forces the protoss to have to build defense or army much much earlier.
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All I know is that when the top terrans play vs code a level or foreign P they often drop maps and even whole matches. Looking at top P Korean players they always stomp a lesser T opponent in boX matches.
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On December 18 2013 17:21 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +Final tally: 136-145 PvT, 47%
Now count up the number of times Innovation, Maru, Bomber, Taeja, MMA, Polt, jjakji showed up on that list. (26)
Now count up the number of times Dear, sOs, Rain, Trap, HerO, Naniwa, Parting showed up on that list. (13) Do you just kind of assume that Patience, Squirtle, Duckdeok, Stardust, San, Avenge, Alicia, Crank, Oz, JYP, Trap and MC are terrible players by default and should never get any wins? With the lineup you 'chose' to write, it still seems pretty balanced to me.
False dilemma is false. There are options between "those players are terrible and should never get any wins" and "those players are great and should get as many wins as they do." I think they're decent to half-decent (relative to the best of the best, not relative to me) and therefore should get fewer wins against world-class opponents.
The balance patch we had awhile ago Oracle Buff, Widow Mine nerf, Combined Upgrades buff, is a kind of patch that will really hurt Terran right on release, but will after some time benefit Terran the most.
We get more gimmick, you get less, but you also gained a core buff.
Not to say that the Protoss players that are wrecking face right now deserve just as much credit as all the Terran stars.
Look at Taeja and MMA and say that you cannot be the most dominant player on planet earth if you have the skill.
I agree that the patch will look a lot less horrible as time passes and players adapt to the Oracle more than they have. There's also a pretty high likelihood of the Oracle getting nerfed while the Terran buffs stay unchanged. Having said that, there's plenty to hate about P in HOTS apart from the Oracle, so this changes little.
I'm not Terran, I just hate what Protoss does to this game.
I get so frustrated when I watch someone hide a proxy Stargate, get an Oracle that kills like 1-2 workers because the Terran responds perfectly, and then be like "OK NP, I lost an Oracle and a Stargate and a Pylon, but I can still win this game." And the Terran can't even counter attack because of the MSC. This Protoss needs to straight up die. That's how Banshee harass worked in WOL. You build an early Banshee and if it gets countered, you're so far behind it's not even funny. You all-inned based on limited scouting information, you didn't try to play a normal game that takes skill, and it didn't work. You deserve to lose in a humiliating fashion. Especially given that Oracles are easier to use than Banshees. It should be even more humiliating. He should cry tears of burning shame and regret and question the values he grew up with as a human being.
Or, you know, just be so far behind that coming back will actually take doing something impressive that will make us go, "Huh, he really is a good player."
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TvP always ends when archon count goes beyond 5. They kill all retreating vacs and vikings, so that a cost effective engagement...which at that stage is a must for terran (because they likely weren't cost effective, definitely not mineral effective to that point in the game). When you have 10 deep red rauders, a ghost and 4 marines left, along with 4 vikings and 4 fairly emptymedivacs you just cannot kill archons anymore and get rolfstomped.
Storm is tough, but deal with-able, colossus are fine and counter-able, even in combination good engagements can be taken. But mid-battle and post-battle archon mergings + rewarp break the late game, as well as any timewarp + plus makes taking a good engagment for terran impossible.
And I fully agree with ^ about proxy stargate. WTF is that. You scout a proxy stargate, there's nothing you can do about it, you can't deny it, with the reaper, you cannot move out with the marines in most cases (unless the proxy is stupidly close and in a bad spot). Protoss will always get his oracle out and will always be allowed to take his nexus. What is that? If I attempt proxy banshee vs protoss and they scout it I'm dead. 100% of the time.
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On December 18 2013 17:58 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 17:21 ejozl wrote:Final tally: 136-145 PvT, 47%
Now count up the number of times Innovation, Maru, Bomber, Taeja, MMA, Polt, jjakji showed up on that list. (26)
Now count up the number of times Dear, sOs, Rain, Trap, HerO, Naniwa, Parting showed up on that list. (13) Do you just kind of assume that Patience, Squirtle, Duckdeok, Stardust, San, Avenge, Alicia, Crank, Oz, JYP, Trap and MC are terrible players by default and should never get any wins? With the lineup you 'chose' to write, it still seems pretty balanced to me. False dilemma is false. There are options between "those players are terrible and should never get any wins" and "those players are great and should get as many wins as they do." I think they're decent to half-decent (relative to the best of the best, not relative to me) and therefore should get fewer wins against world-class opponents. Show nested quote +The balance patch we had awhile ago Oracle Buff, Widow Mine nerf, Combined Upgrades buff, is a kind of patch that will really hurt Terran right on release, but will after some time benefit Terran the most.
We get more gimmick, you get less, but you also gained a core buff.
Not to say that the Protoss players that are wrecking face right now deserve just as much credit as all the Terran stars.
Look at Taeja and MMA and say that you cannot be the most dominant player on planet earth if you have the skill. I agree that the patch will look a lot less horrible as time passes and players adapt to the Oracle more than they have. There's also a pretty high likelihood of the Oracle getting nerfed while the Terran buffs stay unchanged. Having said that, there's plenty to hate about P in HOTS apart from the Oracle, so this changes little. I'm not Terran, I just hate what Protoss does to this game. I get so frustrated when I watch someone hide a proxy Stargate, get an Oracle that kills like 1-2 workers because the Terran responds perfectly, and then be like "OK NP, I lost an Oracle and a Stargate and a Pylon, but I can still win this game." And the Terran can't even counter attack because of the MSC. This Protoss needs to straight up die. That's how Banshee harass worked in WOL. You build an early Banshee and if it gets countered, you're so far behind it's not even funny. You all-inned based on limited scouting information, you didn't try to play a normal game that takes skill, and it didn't work. You deserve to lose in a humiliating fashion. Especially given that Oracles are easier to use than Banshees. It should be even more humiliating. He should cry tears of burning shame and regret and question the values he grew up with as a human being. Or, you know, just be so far behind that coming back will actually take doing something impressive that will make us go, "Huh, he really is a good player."
Maybe you should change your account icon, if you're not Terran (anymore) 
Otherwise I like this post and fully agree... There's too less risk involved with P doing proxy stargate right now...
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If you only make 1 Oracle from proxy Stargate it isn't really that allin and should be considered a macro opening. The Oracle is meant to do minor harass to be worth it, but mostly hold the Terran back. I don't agree that the Protoss should just straight up die, if the Oracle dies, but he will be behind.
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On December 18 2013 18:08 SeXyBaCk wrote:
TvP always ends when archon count goes beyond 5. They kill all retreating vacs and vikings, so that a cost effective engagement...which at that stage is a must for terran (because they likely weren't cost effective, definitely not mineral effective to that point in the game). When you have 10 deep red rauders, a ghost and 4 marines left, along with 4 vikings and 4 fairly emptymedivacs you just cannot kill archons anymore and get rolfstomped.
Storm is tough, but deal with-able, colossus are fine and counter-able, even in combination good engagements can be taken. But mid-battle and post-battle archon mergings + rewarp break the late game, as well as any timewarp + plus makes taking a good engagment for terran impossible.
And I fully agree with ^ about proxy stargate. WTF is that. You scout a proxy stargate, there's nothing you can do about it, you can't deny it, with the reaper, you cannot move out with the marines in most cases (unless the proxy is stupidly close and in a bad spot). Protoss will always get his oracle out and will always be allowed to take his nexus. What is that? If I attempt proxy banshee vs protoss and they scout it I'm dead. 100% of the time.
Are you sure, just saw herO-kangho where herO, after losing 3 tempest just storm spamming Kangho broodlord corruptor swarmhost army and end up with 100 supply lead.
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Is it weird every time I see Bomber (Mind you, one of the best Code S Terrans - Season 2 champ, etc.) drop a map against Protoss (not just a map, his winrate is just barely over 50% vs Toss) on NA ladder I think, what the fuck is this bullshit?
You can make excuses about Protoss being better in BO1 and better in all-ins etc., but one of the worlds best terrans getting barely 50% in the easiest ladder out there, is ridiculous. We're talking about tryhard casual Protoss vs a professional terran here, where the argument of micro better and engage better doesn't hold.
Isn't this weird?!
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On December 18 2013 18:33 ejozl wrote:
If you only make 1 Oracle from proxy Stargate it isn't really that allin and should be considered a macro opening. The Oracle is meant to do minor harass to be worth it, but mostly hold the Terran back. I don't agree that the Protoss should just straight up die, if the Oracle dies, but he will be behind.
Obviously it isn't all in.
That is what I am having a problem with. That it is not all in. That it is, as you want it to be, a macro opening. Why you want it to be a macro opening when it guarantees 2-3 SCV kills, is likely to lead to 5-10 SCV kills, and has a chance of ending the game outright even against pros is beyond me.
What's the Zerg macro opening that guarantees 2-3 SCV kills at basically no cost to the Zerg? Fly one Mutalisk into the mineral line? I think not.
It's not even as though the Oracle is a fun unit. If it took cool micro tricks to get it to perform, like how the Reaper used to work in WOL, I could kind of sort of understand why someone would defend it. But in its current form it's just shy of being an A-move unit. It's terrible.
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TvP is becoming so unbearable to play. What can you do when they can greed and open with an oracle which if unprepared for can end the damn game??? oh its not an oracle but a quick 4 gate... or an immo bust.. or blink stalkers? wait its DTs..
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United Kingdom20326 Posts
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On December 18 2013 20:23 Cyro wrote:
Improve your game sense
Helpful advice thanks
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On December 18 2013 20:23 Cyro wrote:
Improve your game sense
This is what I kept telling people at the start of both WOL and HOTS. Then they went and nerfed terran anyway, whats up with that?!
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On December 18 2013 18:33 ejozl wrote:
If you only make 1 Oracle from proxy Stargate it isn't really that allin and should be considered a macro opening. The Oracle is meant to do minor harass to be worth it, but mostly hold the Terran back. I don't agree that the Protoss should just straight up die, if the Oracle dies, but he will be behind.
Yeah, and proxy 2 rax and 1-1-1 shouldn't be all-ins either... marines/bunkers/tanks/banshees should all cost 1/2 of what it is currently and terran should be able to expand and keep building workers while they do proxy rax and 1-1-1, if it fails, they are slightly behind and can defend easily.
Don't you see that saying proxy Oracle isn't an all-in IS the actually issue? Blink is not all-in, oracle is not all-in. So basically protoss can have aggressive builds that can out right win. And even if the terrans defends, the protoss isn't that behind since they are MACRO openings.
proxy oracles should have the same risks as WoL proxy 11-11 vs zerg. If you do significant damage, you are in the lead and likely win. If the opponent is prepared and micros well, they should be able to hand and then kill you with a bane busts as long as they don't mess up their baneling micro.
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On December 18 2013 20:35 Bagi wrote:This is what I kept telling people at the start of both WOL and HOTS. Then they went and nerfed terran anyway, whats up with that?!
Terran players are just better than the res of us, hence nerfs are needed to keep the playing field even. 
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On December 18 2013 20:51 Ana_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 20:35 Bagi wrote:On December 18 2013 20:23 Cyro wrote:
Improve your game sense This is what I kept telling people at the start of both WOL and HOTS. Then they went and nerfed terran anyway, whats up with that?! Terran players are just better than the res of us, hence nerfs are needed to keep the playing field even.
Haha... Reminds me of the chin-pokémon episode of South Park  Nice, but assuring us of our enormous penis size won't suffice this time!
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Just because the other race is OP doesn't mean you can't improve game sense, and just because you can improve game sense doesn't mean the other race isn't OP. Those are two separate ideas.
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On December 18 2013 18:08 SeXyBaCk wrote:
When you have 10 deep red rauders, a ghost and 4 marines left, along with 4 vikings and 4 fairly emptymedivacs you just cannot kill archons anymore and get rolfstomped.
So what you're saying here is that you need to start keeping 3-4 ghosts back out of the fight so you can EMP the hell out of Archons as they emerge rather than just suiciding ALL of your Ghosts on the front lines? Gotcha.
Look, tactics! :D
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On December 18 2013 21:42 Ana_ wrote:Just throwing it out there, at least ro16 at IEM Sao Paolo Korean qualifiers looks more or less balanced. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IEM_Season_VIII_-_Sao_Paulo/Korean_and_Taiwan_Qualifier4 brackets of 16, 16 PvTs played, 9 Terran wins vs 7 Protoss wins, mapscores 24 maps for Terran while Protoss won 19 maps. Corect If I counted wrong. Here rant about small sample size etc. I wonder what the whole bracket looks like?
TvP is even 23-16 if I counted right. WHAT IS DAVID KIM DOING?
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EPT
