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On December 18 2013 11:46 DinoMight wrote:
I really don't think that a 54% winrate for PvT because Protoss has been doing slightly better in the last month or two is worth getting all up in arms about. Why don't we just sit back and give it some time to see if Terrans can "adapt" to changes in the metagame the way Protoss players did against Hellbat/Widow Mine drops at the beginning of Hots?
Protoss hasn't dropped below a 50% winrate since july in pvt. And a 55%ish winrate is obscene tbh. I was shitty about it when tvz had that winrate for like 6 months, and I'm pretty unhappy about it now.
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On December 18 2013 11:10 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 11:06 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 09:38 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 09:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 08:21 playa wrote:
I, for one, would love for toss to not be able to execute any all-ins. As someone that hasn't even 4 gated before, not only could I care less if it were impossible for toss to all-in, but after every game, I now have to get berated because players are so but hurt over things that happened to them in other games...
If anyone can have GM p vs p by cannon rushing or GM level p vs t by making the decision to do blink all-ins, it probably should be nerfed. It should be harder than a simple decision to do an all-in strategy.
That said, I hope mech gets nerfed. I have no idea why players don't play mech in t vs p or how they lose when they do, and this is coming from someone that may have lost to it 3 times prepatch/buff. Free 3-3 on air units? Are you serious? You have to make air units to beat anyone half decent... if you can't win air fights with that kinda advantage.
I'm pretty sure toss players could switch to terran and get GM if they decided to mech. It wouldn't be an accomplishment either. Protoss get free 3-3 on their heavy ground units (Immo, Colossus) just for upgrading Zealots/Stalkers. Terrans get free 3-3 on air units for upgradig mech. But Vikings are only useful against Colossi. I'd say the Protoss actually get the better end of this upgrading business in the current metagame. So few units are good against terran mech (immortals, archons). All of the good units on the ground are countered by emp. You can't expect to win a game on the ground. The real strength of toss prepatch was building up a superior economy and switching to air units in the late game when terran either didn't have the free supply for vikings or the economy to match you in the air. Now, since it's impossible to have an advantage in air upgrades, there's really nothing you can do/plan for besides to try to all-in on the ground. Maybe hit them before they can get enough ghosts... If you try to upgrade air and ground... and try to keep it close enough for it to matter in upgrades, you have no chance of killing them. Have to play defensive and you're still going to be behind in upgrades, no matter what. There's really nothing to look forward to. It wasn't balanced before, and now it's just as imbalanced on the other side. Cheaper upgrades for terran, sure. But completely removing the need? That's a joke. Airtoss in PvT? "Can't expect to win a game on the ground"? What? Did you watch Red Bull, Blizzcon, Dreamhack? All-in still good unit. So is everything Protoss has on the ground. It was before the patch, it still is now. I can't remember the last time I saw airtoss in a premier tournament since like... Rain vs. Maru on Polar Night a million years ago. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Unless you're talking about ladder, which I don't really care about all that much. I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you talking about bio games? Zealots get eaten alive by hellbats. Stalkers? Worst unit there is. Wouldn't make it if it started with 3-3 against mech. I don't want to all-in. And if all-ins are the best way to play and anyone can do them... I hope they get nerfed asap. Edit: you know why no terrans mech at a high level? Because, besides Bomber, they all own toss at that level. They probably feel like it's not worth the risk since they're already faring incredibly well, and even if they did use mech, it would probably just end up getting nerfed... Hopefully more players start using it in t vs z, so changes have to be made...
oh god, tell me you are trolling
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On December 18 2013 11:10 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 11:06 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 09:38 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 09:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 08:21 playa wrote:
I, for one, would love for toss to not be able to execute any all-ins. As someone that hasn't even 4 gated before, not only could I care less if it were impossible for toss to all-in, but after every game, I now have to get berated because players are so but hurt over things that happened to them in other games...
If anyone can have GM p vs p by cannon rushing or GM level p vs t by making the decision to do blink all-ins, it probably should be nerfed. It should be harder than a simple decision to do an all-in strategy.
That said, I hope mech gets nerfed. I have no idea why players don't play mech in t vs p or how they lose when they do, and this is coming from someone that may have lost to it 3 times prepatch/buff. Free 3-3 on air units? Are you serious? You have to make air units to beat anyone half decent... if you can't win air fights with that kinda advantage.
I'm pretty sure toss players could switch to terran and get GM if they decided to mech. It wouldn't be an accomplishment either. Protoss get free 3-3 on their heavy ground units (Immo, Colossus) just for upgrading Zealots/Stalkers. Terrans get free 3-3 on air units for upgradig mech. But Vikings are only useful against Colossi. I'd say the Protoss actually get the better end of this upgrading business in the current metagame. So few units are good against terran mech (immortals, archons). All of the good units on the ground are countered by emp. You can't expect to win a game on the ground. The real strength of toss prepatch was building up a superior economy and switching to air units in the late game when terran either didn't have the free supply for vikings or the economy to match you in the air. Now, since it's impossible to have an advantage in air upgrades, there's really nothing you can do/plan for besides to try to all-in on the ground. Maybe hit them before they can get enough ghosts... If you try to upgrade air and ground... and try to keep it close enough for it to matter in upgrades, you have no chance of killing them. Have to play defensive and you're still going to be behind in upgrades, no matter what. There's really nothing to look forward to. It wasn't balanced before, and now it's just as imbalanced on the other side. Cheaper upgrades for terran, sure. But completely removing the need? That's a joke. Airtoss in PvT? "Can't expect to win a game on the ground"? What? Did you watch Red Bull, Blizzcon, Dreamhack? All-in still good unit. So is everything Protoss has on the ground. It was before the patch, it still is now. I can't remember the last time I saw airtoss in a premier tournament since like... Rain vs. Maru on Polar Night a million years ago. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Unless you're talking about ladder, which I don't really care about all that much. I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you talking about bio games? Zealots get eaten alive by hellbats. Stalkers? Worst unit there is. Wouldn't make it if it started with 3-3 against mech. I don't want to all-in. And if all-ins are the best way to play and anyone can do them... I hope they get nerfed asap. Edit: you know why no terrans mech at a high level? Because, besides Bomber, they all own toss at that level. They probably feel like it's not worth the risk since they're already faring incredibly well, and even if they did use mech, it would probably just end up getting nerfed... Hopefully more players start using it in t vs z, so changes have to be made...
Ok two things: first, if youre getting owned by mech as toss then the problem completely lies with you man, because mech sucks vs protoss. Do you realize how expensive ghosts are? Especially getting them on top of a mech army? There is such a long timing widow to absolutely destroy a mech army with immortals before ghosts can even come out...
And second, terrans are struggling vs toss at a high level, not dominating..wth
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I never lost to mech prepatch, outside of like 2 games... now anyone can win. There's a reason they reverted the change in beta. If they don't win, it's because they don't abuse banshees. Given that you need air units to beat anyone decent, there's a timer on you to win the game, since it's now next to impossible to transition to air units. I just think it's shitty to be forced to play all-in attacks, non stop, and hope the terran doesn't know how make buildings infront of his units. Sounds like an exhilarating game.
There's no way that the current state of t vs p mech is harder than it was in BW. It's like playing p vs p and massing void rays and the other guy not being able to make ht's or void rays himself. O, but there's a timing window to beat the guy before he gets a lot. If you think mech is bad now, you're either clueless or you're still going off that one time you played it prepatch.
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On December 18 2013 12:18 playa wrote:
I never lost to mech prepatch, outside of like 2 games... now anyone can win. There's a reason they reverted the change in beta. If they don't win, it's because they don't abuse banshees. Given that you need air units to beat anyone decent, there's a timer on you to win the game, since it's now next to impossible to transition to air units. I just think it's shitty to be forced to play all-in attacks, non stop, and hope the terran doesn't know how make buildings infront of his units. Sounds like an exhilarating game.
There's no way that the current state of t vs p mech is harder than it was in BW. It's like playing p vs p and massing void rays and the other guy not being able to make ht's or void rays himself. O, but there's a timing window to beat the guy before he gets a lot. If you think mech is bad now, you're either clueless or you're still going off that one time you played it prepatch.
Dude what are you talking about?? Any competent toss can wreck mech. Idk where youre getting that banshees are a part of a mech army either, because theyre not. But even if the terran does try to mix them in, not only does that severely cut into the ground army, but stalkers should easily destroy them. And between immortals and archons, a mech ground army just cant pump damage out fast enough to prevent the toss from closing and steamrolling them. Throw in a few colossi to thin hellbat numbers, and even chargelots become tanky, high damage dealing units. Hell even storm can destroy a mech army as long as archons go in first and tank the initial tank volley. Basically, mech is only powerful if you can prevent the enemy from closing on the tanks, which you cannot stop the toss from doing.
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banshee is essential for mech tvp
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On December 18 2013 12:42 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 12:18 playa wrote:
I never lost to mech prepatch, outside of like 2 games... now anyone can win. There's a reason they reverted the change in beta. If they don't win, it's because they don't abuse banshees. Given that you need air units to beat anyone decent, there's a timer on you to win the game, since it's now next to impossible to transition to air units. I just think it's shitty to be forced to play all-in attacks, non stop, and hope the terran doesn't know how make buildings infront of his units. Sounds like an exhilarating game.
There's no way that the current state of t vs p mech is harder than it was in BW. It's like playing p vs p and massing void rays and the other guy not being able to make ht's or void rays himself. O, but there's a timing window to beat the guy before he gets a lot. If you think mech is bad now, you're either clueless or you're still going off that one time you played it prepatch. Dude what are you talking about?? Any competent toss can wreck mech. Idk where youre getting that banshees are a part of a mech army either, because theyre not. But even if the terran does try to mix them in, not only does that severely cut into the ground army, but stalkers should easily destroy them. And between immortals and archons, a mech ground army just cant pump damage out fast enough to prevent the toss from closing and steamrolling them. Throw in a few colossi to thin hellbat numbers, and even chargelots become tanky, high damage dealing units. Hell even storm can destroy a mech army as long as archons go in first and tank the initial tank volley. Basically, mech is only powerful if you can prevent the enemy from closing on the tanks, which you cannot stop the toss from doing.
My buddy who plays random has a 85% win rate in TvP.
Because he doesn't have great APM, he mechs EVERY SINGLE GAME. Banshees are a core unit in his composition. With Ravens and Vikings you can deny Protoss all detection. PDD denies Stalker shots. It's quite good actually.
In the early game he harasses with Widow Mines and Hellions to keep Protoss on the defensive while he gets his army together.
I'm not saying it will work for everyone, but it works for him. Maybe if more Terrans tried things like this we'd have different strategies beside "suicide Medivacs into a turtling Protoss for 10 minutes and then complain when you lose."
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On December 18 2013 12:49 DinoMight wrote:
My buddy who plays random has a 85% win rate in TvP.
You probably shouldn't start off balance discussions with statements like this. And sorry, but it's pretty comical when people still say things like "Terran should try X", "mech is viable", etc. when T as a race has received so many direct and indirect nerfs to the point where there is literally one way to play against Protoss.
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On December 18 2013 12:49 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 12:42 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 18 2013 12:18 playa wrote:
I never lost to mech prepatch, outside of like 2 games... now anyone can win. There's a reason they reverted the change in beta. If they don't win, it's because they don't abuse banshees. Given that you need air units to beat anyone decent, there's a timer on you to win the game, since it's now next to impossible to transition to air units. I just think it's shitty to be forced to play all-in attacks, non stop, and hope the terran doesn't know how make buildings infront of his units. Sounds like an exhilarating game.
There's no way that the current state of t vs p mech is harder than it was in BW. It's like playing p vs p and massing void rays and the other guy not being able to make ht's or void rays himself. O, but there's a timing window to beat the guy before he gets a lot. If you think mech is bad now, you're either clueless or you're still going off that one time you played it prepatch. Dude what are you talking about?? Any competent toss can wreck mech. Idk where youre getting that banshees are a part of a mech army either, because theyre not. But even if the terran does try to mix them in, not only does that severely cut into the ground army, but stalkers should easily destroy them. And between immortals and archons, a mech ground army just cant pump damage out fast enough to prevent the toss from closing and steamrolling them. Throw in a few colossi to thin hellbat numbers, and even chargelots become tanky, high damage dealing units. Hell even storm can destroy a mech army as long as archons go in first and tank the initial tank volley. Basically, mech is only powerful if you can prevent the enemy from closing on the tanks, which you cannot stop the toss from doing. My buddy who plays random has a 85% win rate in TvP. Because he doesn't have great APM, he mechs EVERY SINGLE GAME. Banshees are a core unit in his composition. With Ravens and Vikings you can deny Protoss all detection. PDD denies Stalker shots. It's quite good actually. In the early game he harasses with Widow Mines and Hellions to keep Protoss on the defensive while he gets his army together. I'm not saying it will work for everyone, but it works for him. Maybe if more Terrans tried things like this we'd have different strategies beside "suicide Medivacs into a turtling Protoss for 10 minutes and then complain when you lose."
I guarantee the only reason mech has success vs toss on ladder is because toss players have nearly zero experience in playing against it. It wins because its gimmicky, not because its good. If more Terrans started playing mech, I dont see it taking very long before it starts getting hard countered. Hell, off the top of my head, if the toss is going to let the terran get a solid number of cloak banshees out, plus ravens, plus ghosts, while still building the core hellbat/tank army, then toss should at the very least have ht for fb on ravens and banshees, archons (which are not affected by pdd and are more cost efficient vs banshees), and immortals to soak damage with the archons and kill tanks, plus the standard gateway units supporting them. .
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Count me in on the "banshees are amazing" camp. The force a lot of stalkers from the protoss that become tank fodder real quick and archons can easily be microed away from. The combined upgrades really helped in this regard, before the patch banshee DPS really suffered against armor upgrades.
Still I dont think mech is viable on the highest level yet, at least not with these kind of maps. You just have to watch Strelok stream for a while where protosses know his style, proceed to do massive blink stalker + warp prism harass from 3-4 angles on a map like frost while doing an air switch to tempests or even carriers back home. It feels a bit like playing protoss without the convenience of warp-ins and nexus cannons.
Then again changing the maps towards more mech friendly doesn't seem like much of an option either considering how much people disliked Akilon.
On December 18 2013 13:43 Survivor61316 wrote:
I guarantee the only reason mech has success vs toss on ladder is because toss players have nearly zero experience in playing against it. It wins because its gimmicky, not because its good. If more Terrans started playing mech, I dont see it taking very long before it starts getting hard countered. Hell, off the top of my head, if the toss is going to let the terran get a solid number of cloak banshees out, plus ravens, plus ghosts, while still building the core hellbat/tank army, then toss should at the very least have ht for fb on ravens and banshees, archons (which are not affected by pdd and are more cost efficient vs banshees), and immortals to soak damage with the archons and kill tanks, plus the standard gateway units supporting them. .
I see banshees as more of an midgame unit where you amass them before the protoss has its optimal army comp out since banshees aren't very supply effective, you might for example delay your ghosts in favor of banshees. Although lategame mass air transitions can also be surprisingly powerful where banshees come handy again. Banshees have double the range of an archon (3 vs 6), if your banshees are dying to archons you are doing it wrong. HTs do very little because they get sniped by tanks and you are supposed to keep your energy low with cloak anyway.
I really don't think they are any more gimmicky than adding void rays to the PvZ army, void rays have strong counters too but when combined with the right units they become much more difficult to kill.
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On December 18 2013 11:25 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 11:18 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 11:10 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 11:06 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 09:38 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 09:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 08:21 playa wrote:
I, for one, would love for toss to not be able to execute any all-ins. As someone that hasn't even 4 gated before, not only could I care less if it were impossible for toss to all-in, but after every game, I now have to get berated because players are so but hurt over things that happened to them in other games...
If anyone can have GM p vs p by cannon rushing or GM level p vs t by making the decision to do blink all-ins, it probably should be nerfed. It should be harder than a simple decision to do an all-in strategy.
That said, I hope mech gets nerfed. I have no idea why players don't play mech in t vs p or how they lose when they do, and this is coming from someone that may have lost to it 3 times prepatch/buff. Free 3-3 on air units? Are you serious? You have to make air units to beat anyone half decent... if you can't win air fights with that kinda advantage.
I'm pretty sure toss players could switch to terran and get GM if they decided to mech. It wouldn't be an accomplishment either. Protoss get free 3-3 on their heavy ground units (Immo, Colossus) just for upgrading Zealots/Stalkers. Terrans get free 3-3 on air units for upgradig mech. But Vikings are only useful against Colossi. I'd say the Protoss actually get the better end of this upgrading business in the current metagame. So few units are good against terran mech (immortals, archons). All of the good units on the ground are countered by emp. You can't expect to win a game on the ground. The real strength of toss prepatch was building up a superior economy and switching to air units in the late game when terran either didn't have the free supply for vikings or the economy to match you in the air. Now, since it's impossible to have an advantage in air upgrades, there's really nothing you can do/plan for besides to try to all-in on the ground. Maybe hit them before they can get enough ghosts... If you try to upgrade air and ground... and try to keep it close enough for it to matter in upgrades, you have no chance of killing them. Have to play defensive and you're still going to be behind in upgrades, no matter what. There's really nothing to look forward to. It wasn't balanced before, and now it's just as imbalanced on the other side. Cheaper upgrades for terran, sure. But completely removing the need? That's a joke. Airtoss in PvT? "Can't expect to win a game on the ground"? What? Did you watch Red Bull, Blizzcon, Dreamhack? All-in still good unit. So is everything Protoss has on the ground. It was before the patch, it still is now. I can't remember the last time I saw airtoss in a premier tournament since like... Rain vs. Maru on Polar Night a million years ago. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Unless you're talking about ladder, which I don't really care about all that much. I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you talking about bio games? Zealots get eaten alive by hellbats. Stalkers? Worst unit there is. Wouldn't make it if it started with 3-3 against mech. I don't want to all-in. And if all-ins are the best way to play and anyone can do them... I hope they get nerfed asap. I edited my post once I saw we were talking about different things. I don't really care about ladder (although I do empathize with your desire to play standard macro games). I'm talking about tournaments only, where top tier Protoss not going airtoss go toe-to-toe with top tier Terrans playing bio the same as they've always done. You said "mech should get nerfed." At top levels of play, mech vs. P does not exist. Consequently it does not need a nerf, it needs a buff. Makes no sense to me. Not only do the top level terrans have what, 70% or higher win rate against toss according to TLPD
PvT with major Korean presence since Blizzcon:
Blizzcon 15-11 sOs, duckdeok, MC, Dear vs Bomber, Maru, Polt, Inno, Taeja (with fucking duckdeok contributing 5 wins over Innovation and Maru, rest seems fine)
HS8 16-21 HerO, MC, Babyknight, Socke, Titan, ToD, Harstem, Huk, Hasu vs Taeja, jjakji, dayshi, Heromarine, Happy, Kas, Thorzain (Taeja, jjakji > HerO, MC, seems right)
Team League 14-19 Dear and Trap (7 games) vs Inno, MMA, Bomber (10 games) - not usually in direct competition, however, mostly taking out Code A Koreans.
RedBull 2-1 Parting vs Bomber
DHW 22-19 sOs, Patience, HerO, JYP, Naniwa, Stardust vs. Inno, MMA, Polt, Taeja, ForGG, Sjow, Lucifron (feel free to explain how that comes out to 22-19)
IEM Singapore 12-13 herO, Squirtle, Grubby, San, Avenge, Oz, Has vs. Bomber, Mvp, Hack, Dream, SeleCT
Dailymotion 11-12 Squirtle, San, Oz, ToD vs. Inno, MMA, Polt, ForGG (lol? OK)
ASUS Rog 13-13 San, elfi, socke, welmu vs. Inno, jjakji, MMA, Wulfen, Lucifron (again lol?)
ACER Teamstory 42-48 HerO, San, Alicia, HwangSin, Crank, a bunch of foreigners vs. Taeja, Inno, MMA, thestc, ForGG, Ryung, more foreigners (hardly a star Protoss lineup. Still, Taeja manages to drop games to Crank, elfi, Hasu, Babyknight, and MacSed, before going on to become the #1 player of the year two weeks later.)
Proleague 1-1 Parting, herO vs Cure, Maru
Final tally: 136-145 PvT, 47%
Now count up the number of times Innovation, Maru, Bomber, Taeja, MMA, Polt, jjakji showed up on that list. (26)
Now count up the number of times Dear, sOs, Rain, Trap, HerO, Naniwa, Parting showed up on that list. (13)
Should the results really be 53% for Terran with those specific players playing?
Should they really? Honestly, now.
The results should be 70% for Terran with those players coming out so much.
they've been practicing bio for how long? Years? How long has mech sucked? Years. Why would you expect players that already can't expect to do better against toss to suddenly switch to mech because a recent patch just made it imbalanced, if you actually know how to play mech?
So according to you, playing mech is a non-transferable skill? Because Terrans have actually been doing it in TvT and TvZ for "Years." I think they know the hotkey for Siege Mode, and I think they're as tired of losing to foreigner/Code A Korean all-ins as we are of seeing it.
I'm not saying it's impossible for someone out there - say, Taeja - to start going mech in TvP and winning. What I'm saying is saying "mech needs a nerf" is fucking ridiculous. Even if Taeja did go on a murder spree, that would prove nothing except that he's still one of the best players in the world. Now if Marineking came back out of retirement and started winning with mech in TvP, then, and only then, might you have a point.
Then again, what kinda reasoning can you expect from someone that doesn't even realize I'm talking about mech, when it's abundantly clear, if not explicitly mentioned in every sentence? Don't care about ladder. Ok, I hope you're not one of those people that repeatedly harps on how many toss players are in GM, then.
I'm not one of those people, but I've got nothing against them. I don't personally care about how the game plays at lower levels. That doesn't mean it can't tell us valuable things about upper levels. We just have to figure out which lower level trends are actually meaningful across the board, and which ones aren't.
On first glance, the "no Terrans on ladder" stat seems considerably more relevant than Blizzard's artificial 55-45 numbers.
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http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/race
Come on now guys, are we really going to pretend like theres no problem here? Terran constitutes over 29% of the global player pool, yet they make up 28% or less of every league outside silver and bronze, and the higher the league, the farther from 29 they are.. Toss on the other hand makes up nearly 50% (45% to be exact) of global gm, which is 21 shy of exactly doubling Terran's representation.. Thats a 70% higher representation for Toss in gm than their player base as a whole. How can anyone look at all these stats and not admit that a balance problem lies at the heart of it?? It boggles my mind. Instead of arguing whether there is a balance problem, we should just admit there is, and try to figure out a non-extreme way to fix it.
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On December 18 2013 13:51 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 11:25 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 11:18 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 11:10 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 11:06 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 09:38 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 09:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 08:21 playa wrote:
I, for one, would love for toss to not be able to execute any all-ins. As someone that hasn't even 4 gated before, not only could I care less if it were impossible for toss to all-in, but after every game, I now have to get berated because players are so but hurt over things that happened to them in other games...
If anyone can have GM p vs p by cannon rushing or GM level p vs t by making the decision to do blink all-ins, it probably should be nerfed. It should be harder than a simple decision to do an all-in strategy.
That said, I hope mech gets nerfed. I have no idea why players don't play mech in t vs p or how they lose when they do, and this is coming from someone that may have lost to it 3 times prepatch/buff. Free 3-3 on air units? Are you serious? You have to make air units to beat anyone half decent... if you can't win air fights with that kinda advantage.
I'm pretty sure toss players could switch to terran and get GM if they decided to mech. It wouldn't be an accomplishment either. Protoss get free 3-3 on their heavy ground units (Immo, Colossus) just for upgrading Zealots/Stalkers. Terrans get free 3-3 on air units for upgradig mech. But Vikings are only useful against Colossi. I'd say the Protoss actually get the better end of this upgrading business in the current metagame. So few units are good against terran mech (immortals, archons). All of the good units on the ground are countered by emp. You can't expect to win a game on the ground. The real strength of toss prepatch was building up a superior economy and switching to air units in the late game when terran either didn't have the free supply for vikings or the economy to match you in the air. Now, since it's impossible to have an advantage in air upgrades, there's really nothing you can do/plan for besides to try to all-in on the ground. Maybe hit them before they can get enough ghosts... If you try to upgrade air and ground... and try to keep it close enough for it to matter in upgrades, you have no chance of killing them. Have to play defensive and you're still going to be behind in upgrades, no matter what. There's really nothing to look forward to. It wasn't balanced before, and now it's just as imbalanced on the other side. Cheaper upgrades for terran, sure. But completely removing the need? That's a joke. Airtoss in PvT? "Can't expect to win a game on the ground"? What? Did you watch Red Bull, Blizzcon, Dreamhack? All-in still good unit. So is everything Protoss has on the ground. It was before the patch, it still is now. I can't remember the last time I saw airtoss in a premier tournament since like... Rain vs. Maru on Polar Night a million years ago. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Unless you're talking about ladder, which I don't really care about all that much. I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you talking about bio games? Zealots get eaten alive by hellbats. Stalkers? Worst unit there is. Wouldn't make it if it started with 3-3 against mech. I don't want to all-in. And if all-ins are the best way to play and anyone can do them... I hope they get nerfed asap. I edited my post once I saw we were talking about different things. I don't really care about ladder (although I do empathize with your desire to play standard macro games). I'm talking about tournaments only, where top tier Protoss not going airtoss go toe-to-toe with top tier Terrans playing bio the same as they've always done. You said "mech should get nerfed." At top levels of play, mech vs. P does not exist. Consequently it does not need a nerf, it needs a buff. Makes no sense to me. Not only do the top level terrans have what, 70% or higher win rate against toss according to TLPD PvT with major Korean presence since Blizzcon: Blizzcon 15-11 sOs, duckdeok, MC, Dear vs Bomber, Maru, Polt, Inno, Taeja (with fucking duckdeok contributing 5 wins over Innovation and Maru, rest seems fine) HS8 16-21 HerO, MC, Babyknight, Socke, Titan, ToD, Harstem, Huk, Hasu vs Taeja, jjakji, dayshi, Heromarine, Happy, Kas, Thorzain (Taeja, jjakji > HerO, MC, seems right) Team League 14-19 Dear and Trap (7 games) vs Inno, MMA, Bomber (10 games) - not usually in direct competition, however, mostly taking out Code A Koreans. RedBull 2-1 Parting vs Bomber DHW 22-19 sOs, Patience, HerO, JYP, Naniwa, Stardust vs. Inno, MMA, Polt, Taeja, ForGG, Sjow, Lucifron (feel free to explain how that comes out to 22-19) IEM Singapore 12-13 herO, Squirtle, Grubby, San, Avenge, Oz, Has vs. Bomber, Mvp, Hack, Dream, SeleCT Dailymotion 11-12 Squirtle, San, Oz, ToD vs. Inno, MMA, Polt, ForGG (lol? OK) ASUS Rog 13-13 San, elfi, socke, welmu vs. Inno, jjakji, MMA, Wulfen, Lucifron (again lol?) ACER Teamstory 42-48 HerO, San, Alicia, HwangSin, Crank, a bunch of foreigners vs. Taeja, Inno, MMA, thestc, ForGG, Ryung, more foreigners (hardly a star Protoss lineup. Still, Taeja manages to drop games to Crank, elfi, Hasu, Babyknight, and MacSed, before going on to become the #1 player of the year two weeks later.) Proleague 1-1 Parting, herO vs Cure, Maru Final tally: 136-145 PvT, 47% Now count up the number of times Innovation, Maru, Bomber, Taeja, MMA, Polt, jjakji showed up on that list. (26) Now count up the number of times Dear, sOs, Rain, Trap, HerO, Naniwa, Parting showed up on that list. (13) Should the results really be 53% for Terran with those specific players playing? Should they really? Honestly, now. The results should be 70% for Terran with those players coming out so much. Show nested quote +they've been practicing bio for how long? Years? How long has mech sucked? Years. Why would you expect players that already can't expect to do better against toss to suddenly switch to mech because a recent patch just made it imbalanced, if you actually know how to play mech? So according to you, playing mech is a non-transferable skill? Because Terrans have actually been doing it in TvT and TvZ for "Years." I think they know the hotkey for Siege Mode, and I think they're as tired of losing to foreigner/Code A Korean all-ins as we are of seeing it. I'm not saying it's impossible for someone out there - say, Taeja - to start going mech in TvP and winning. What I'm saying is saying "mech needs a nerf" is fucking ridiculous. Even if Taeja did go on a murder spree, that would prove nothing except that he's still one of the best players in the world. Now if Marineking came back out of retirement and started winning with mech in TvP, then, and only then, might you have a point. Show nested quote +Then again, what kinda reasoning can you expect from someone that doesn't even realize I'm talking about mech, when it's abundantly clear, if not explicitly mentioned in every sentence? Don't care about ladder. Ok, I hope you're not one of those people that repeatedly harps on how many toss players are in GM, then. I'm not one of those people, but I've got nothing against them. I don't personally care about how the game plays at lower levels. That doesn't mean it can't tell us valuable things about upper levels. We just have to figure out which lower level trends are actually meaningful across the board, and which ones aren't. On first glance, the "no Terrans on ladder" stat seems considerably more relevant than Blizzard's artificial 55-45 numbers.
You're kinda silly, so I have to return the favor and not read all of that. How to explain 22-19 in a group with lucifron and sjow? Is that a joke? The oracle buff was a pretty big change because the oracle was absolutely worthless and now terrans actually have to prepare for it/can lose to it. I'm not saying they didn't go too far or not, I'm just saying it's an adjustment period and I can't see the numbers ever being lower than that.
As someone that obviously played mech in t vs p, in bw, I would never mech in t vs z, whether it was imbalanced or not on certain maps. Playing mech in one mu really has little bearing on playing mech in other mu's. It wouldn't be that different from learning a new mu. Top terrans career stats are insane against protoss. Last time I checked, only one unit got buffed in p vs t. A unit that's not even made in most games. I think they will manage.
I would love for someone to think about how many B+ or better Terrans in BW are actually playing SC 2 as Terran. You might be surprised, but there's hardly anyone that would have been the equivalent level of GM in foreigner BW that is playing terran in SC 2. If the game were balanced, I have no idea why anyone wouldn't expect a discrepancy. Makes no sense.
Nerf protoss all-ins and there would be a lot fewer toss GM's and there should be fewer, but there still shouldn't be many good terrans.
It was before my time in SC 2, but I know there was a time where Terran was undisputedly the most OP race. How many foreign "bonjwas" were there? If you can't own with an advantage, you sure as hell aren't owning with less of an advantage. Switch races or get real.
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TvP... Protoss go Storms and it's pretty much easy win. Watching Bomber's stream right now and that's what seems to be happening.
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On December 18 2013 14:43 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 13:51 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 11:25 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 11:18 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 11:10 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 11:06 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 09:38 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 09:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 08:21 playa wrote:
I, for one, would love for toss to not be able to execute any all-ins. As someone that hasn't even 4 gated before, not only could I care less if it were impossible for toss to all-in, but after every game, I now have to get berated because players are so but hurt over things that happened to them in other games...
If anyone can have GM p vs p by cannon rushing or GM level p vs t by making the decision to do blink all-ins, it probably should be nerfed. It should be harder than a simple decision to do an all-in strategy.
That said, I hope mech gets nerfed. I have no idea why players don't play mech in t vs p or how they lose when they do, and this is coming from someone that may have lost to it 3 times prepatch/buff. Free 3-3 on air units? Are you serious? You have to make air units to beat anyone half decent... if you can't win air fights with that kinda advantage.
I'm pretty sure toss players could switch to terran and get GM if they decided to mech. It wouldn't be an accomplishment either. Protoss get free 3-3 on their heavy ground units (Immo, Colossus) just for upgrading Zealots/Stalkers. Terrans get free 3-3 on air units for upgradig mech. But Vikings are only useful against Colossi. I'd say the Protoss actually get the better end of this upgrading business in the current metagame. So few units are good against terran mech (immortals, archons). All of the good units on the ground are countered by emp. You can't expect to win a game on the ground. The real strength of toss prepatch was building up a superior economy and switching to air units in the late game when terran either didn't have the free supply for vikings or the economy to match you in the air. Now, since it's impossible to have an advantage in air upgrades, there's really nothing you can do/plan for besides to try to all-in on the ground. Maybe hit them before they can get enough ghosts... If you try to upgrade air and ground... and try to keep it close enough for it to matter in upgrades, you have no chance of killing them. Have to play defensive and you're still going to be behind in upgrades, no matter what. There's really nothing to look forward to. It wasn't balanced before, and now it's just as imbalanced on the other side. Cheaper upgrades for terran, sure. But completely removing the need? That's a joke. Airtoss in PvT? "Can't expect to win a game on the ground"? What? Did you watch Red Bull, Blizzcon, Dreamhack? All-in still good unit. So is everything Protoss has on the ground. It was before the patch, it still is now. I can't remember the last time I saw airtoss in a premier tournament since like... Rain vs. Maru on Polar Night a million years ago. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Unless you're talking about ladder, which I don't really care about all that much. I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you talking about bio games? Zealots get eaten alive by hellbats. Stalkers? Worst unit there is. Wouldn't make it if it started with 3-3 against mech. I don't want to all-in. And if all-ins are the best way to play and anyone can do them... I hope they get nerfed asap. I edited my post once I saw we were talking about different things. I don't really care about ladder (although I do empathize with your desire to play standard macro games). I'm talking about tournaments only, where top tier Protoss not going airtoss go toe-to-toe with top tier Terrans playing bio the same as they've always done. You said "mech should get nerfed." At top levels of play, mech vs. P does not exist. Consequently it does not need a nerf, it needs a buff. Makes no sense to me. Not only do the top level terrans have what, 70% or higher win rate against toss according to TLPD PvT with major Korean presence since Blizzcon: Blizzcon 15-11 sOs, duckdeok, MC, Dear vs Bomber, Maru, Polt, Inno, Taeja (with fucking duckdeok contributing 5 wins over Innovation and Maru, rest seems fine) HS8 16-21 HerO, MC, Babyknight, Socke, Titan, ToD, Harstem, Huk, Hasu vs Taeja, jjakji, dayshi, Heromarine, Happy, Kas, Thorzain (Taeja, jjakji > HerO, MC, seems right) Team League 14-19 Dear and Trap (7 games) vs Inno, MMA, Bomber (10 games) - not usually in direct competition, however, mostly taking out Code A Koreans. RedBull 2-1 Parting vs Bomber DHW 22-19 sOs, Patience, HerO, JYP, Naniwa, Stardust vs. Inno, MMA, Polt, Taeja, ForGG, Sjow, Lucifron (feel free to explain how that comes out to 22-19) IEM Singapore 12-13 herO, Squirtle, Grubby, San, Avenge, Oz, Has vs. Bomber, Mvp, Hack, Dream, SeleCT Dailymotion 11-12 Squirtle, San, Oz, ToD vs. Inno, MMA, Polt, ForGG (lol? OK) ASUS Rog 13-13 San, elfi, socke, welmu vs. Inno, jjakji, MMA, Wulfen, Lucifron (again lol?) ACER Teamstory 42-48 HerO, San, Alicia, HwangSin, Crank, a bunch of foreigners vs. Taeja, Inno, MMA, thestc, ForGG, Ryung, more foreigners (hardly a star Protoss lineup. Still, Taeja manages to drop games to Crank, elfi, Hasu, Babyknight, and MacSed, before going on to become the #1 player of the year two weeks later.) Proleague 1-1 Parting, herO vs Cure, Maru Final tally: 136-145 PvT, 47% Now count up the number of times Innovation, Maru, Bomber, Taeja, MMA, Polt, jjakji showed up on that list. (26) Now count up the number of times Dear, sOs, Rain, Trap, HerO, Naniwa, Parting showed up on that list. (13) Should the results really be 53% for Terran with those specific players playing? Should they really? Honestly, now. The results should be 70% for Terran with those players coming out so much. they've been practicing bio for how long? Years? How long has mech sucked? Years. Why would you expect players that already can't expect to do better against toss to suddenly switch to mech because a recent patch just made it imbalanced, if you actually know how to play mech? So according to you, playing mech is a non-transferable skill? Because Terrans have actually been doing it in TvT and TvZ for "Years." I think they know the hotkey for Siege Mode, and I think they're as tired of losing to foreigner/Code A Korean all-ins as we are of seeing it. I'm not saying it's impossible for someone out there - say, Taeja - to start going mech in TvP and winning. What I'm saying is saying "mech needs a nerf" is fucking ridiculous. Even if Taeja did go on a murder spree, that would prove nothing except that he's still one of the best players in the world. Now if Marineking came back out of retirement and started winning with mech in TvP, then, and only then, might you have a point. Then again, what kinda reasoning can you expect from someone that doesn't even realize I'm talking about mech, when it's abundantly clear, if not explicitly mentioned in every sentence? Don't care about ladder. Ok, I hope you're not one of those people that repeatedly harps on how many toss players are in GM, then. I'm not one of those people, but I've got nothing against them. I don't personally care about how the game plays at lower levels. That doesn't mean it can't tell us valuable things about upper levels. We just have to figure out which lower level trends are actually meaningful across the board, and which ones aren't. On first glance, the "no Terrans on ladder" stat seems considerably more relevant than Blizzard's artificial 55-45 numbers. You're kinda silly, so I have to return the favor and not read all of that. How to explain 22-19 in a group with lucifron and sjow? Is that a joke? The oracle buff was a pretty big change because the oracle was absolutely worthless and now terrans actually have to prepare for it/can lose to it. I'm not saying they didn't go too far or not, I'm just saying it's an adjustment period and I can't see the numbers ever being lower than that. As someone that obviously played mech in t vs p, in bw, I would never mech in t vs z, whether it was imbalanced or not on certain maps. Playing mech in one mu really has little bearing on playing mech in other mu's. It wouldn't be that different from learning a new mu. Top terrans career stats are insane against protoss. Last time I checked, only one unit got buffed in p vs t. A unit that's not even made in most games. I think they will manage. I would love for someone to think about how many B+ or better Terrans in BW are actually playing SC 2 as Terran. You might be surprised, but there's hardly anyone that would have been the equivalent level of GM in foreigner BW that is playing terran in SC 2. If the game were balanced, I have no idea why anyone wouldn't expect a discrepancy. Makes no sense. Nerf protoss all-ins and there would be a lot fewer toss GM's and there should be fewer, but there still shouldn't be many good terrans.
I missed one word by accident so you decide to be a dick on purpose. Nice.
Take Sjow and Luci out of the equation, that's still 16-19 sOs, Patience, HerO, JYP, Naniwa, Stardust vs. Inno, MMA, Polt, Taeja, ForGG. Innovation, MMA, Polt are all Top 16 Code S level players, and you're telling me that a 57% win ratio makes sense here? They should be steamrolling through Patience, JYP, Stardust, making them look like fucking scrubs. Instead, Patience takes 7 games and JYP takes 4, both on bigger stages than Patience and JYP have ever seen in their lives, where Inno, MMA, Polt are veterans. Why don't we invite JYP and Patience to Code S next season, while we're at it.
"But the Oracle is OP!" you say. So for some reason the best Terrans in the world can't adapt to mech being OP, but Code A Koreans somehow figure out how good the Oracle is within two weeks. Right.
Either it's opposite month, or maybe you just don't know what the hell you're talking about with mech at high levels of play.
edit: I do agree that Banshees are going to be an important part of any mech composition that does become viable in TvP. Their maneuverability reminds me a lot of Vultures.
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On December 18 2013 14:58 geokilla wrote:
TvP... Protoss go Storms and it's pretty much easy win. Watching Bomber's stream right now and that's what seems to be happening.
And hes playing on NA right now
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On December 18 2013 15:10 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 14:43 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 13:51 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 11:25 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 11:18 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 11:10 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 11:06 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 09:38 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 09:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 08:21 playa wrote:
I, for one, would love for toss to not be able to execute any all-ins. As someone that hasn't even 4 gated before, not only could I care less if it were impossible for toss to all-in, but after every game, I now have to get berated because players are so but hurt over things that happened to them in other games...
If anyone can have GM p vs p by cannon rushing or GM level p vs t by making the decision to do blink all-ins, it probably should be nerfed. It should be harder than a simple decision to do an all-in strategy.
That said, I hope mech gets nerfed. I have no idea why players don't play mech in t vs p or how they lose when they do, and this is coming from someone that may have lost to it 3 times prepatch/buff. Free 3-3 on air units? Are you serious? You have to make air units to beat anyone half decent... if you can't win air fights with that kinda advantage.
I'm pretty sure toss players could switch to terran and get GM if they decided to mech. It wouldn't be an accomplishment either. Protoss get free 3-3 on their heavy ground units (Immo, Colossus) just for upgrading Zealots/Stalkers. Terrans get free 3-3 on air units for upgradig mech. But Vikings are only useful against Colossi. I'd say the Protoss actually get the better end of this upgrading business in the current metagame. So few units are good against terran mech (immortals, archons). All of the good units on the ground are countered by emp. You can't expect to win a game on the ground. The real strength of toss prepatch was building up a superior economy and switching to air units in the late game when terran either didn't have the free supply for vikings or the economy to match you in the air. Now, since it's impossible to have an advantage in air upgrades, there's really nothing you can do/plan for besides to try to all-in on the ground. Maybe hit them before they can get enough ghosts... If you try to upgrade air and ground... and try to keep it close enough for it to matter in upgrades, you have no chance of killing them. Have to play defensive and you're still going to be behind in upgrades, no matter what. There's really nothing to look forward to. It wasn't balanced before, and now it's just as imbalanced on the other side. Cheaper upgrades for terran, sure. But completely removing the need? That's a joke. Airtoss in PvT? "Can't expect to win a game on the ground"? What? Did you watch Red Bull, Blizzcon, Dreamhack? All-in still good unit. So is everything Protoss has on the ground. It was before the patch, it still is now. I can't remember the last time I saw airtoss in a premier tournament since like... Rain vs. Maru on Polar Night a million years ago. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Unless you're talking about ladder, which I don't really care about all that much. I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you talking about bio games? Zealots get eaten alive by hellbats. Stalkers? Worst unit there is. Wouldn't make it if it started with 3-3 against mech. I don't want to all-in. And if all-ins are the best way to play and anyone can do them... I hope they get nerfed asap. I edited my post once I saw we were talking about different things. I don't really care about ladder (although I do empathize with your desire to play standard macro games). I'm talking about tournaments only, where top tier Protoss not going airtoss go toe-to-toe with top tier Terrans playing bio the same as they've always done. You said "mech should get nerfed." At top levels of play, mech vs. P does not exist. Consequently it does not need a nerf, it needs a buff. Makes no sense to me. Not only do the top level terrans have what, 70% or higher win rate against toss according to TLPD PvT with major Korean presence since Blizzcon: Blizzcon 15-11 sOs, duckdeok, MC, Dear vs Bomber, Maru, Polt, Inno, Taeja (with fucking duckdeok contributing 5 wins over Innovation and Maru, rest seems fine) HS8 16-21 HerO, MC, Babyknight, Socke, Titan, ToD, Harstem, Huk, Hasu vs Taeja, jjakji, dayshi, Heromarine, Happy, Kas, Thorzain (Taeja, jjakji > HerO, MC, seems right) Team League 14-19 Dear and Trap (7 games) vs Inno, MMA, Bomber (10 games) - not usually in direct competition, however, mostly taking out Code A Koreans. RedBull 2-1 Parting vs Bomber DHW 22-19 sOs, Patience, HerO, JYP, Naniwa, Stardust vs. Inno, MMA, Polt, Taeja, ForGG, Sjow, Lucifron (feel free to explain how that comes out to 22-19) IEM Singapore 12-13 herO, Squirtle, Grubby, San, Avenge, Oz, Has vs. Bomber, Mvp, Hack, Dream, SeleCT Dailymotion 11-12 Squirtle, San, Oz, ToD vs. Inno, MMA, Polt, ForGG (lol? OK) ASUS Rog 13-13 San, elfi, socke, welmu vs. Inno, jjakji, MMA, Wulfen, Lucifron (again lol?) ACER Teamstory 42-48 HerO, San, Alicia, HwangSin, Crank, a bunch of foreigners vs. Taeja, Inno, MMA, thestc, ForGG, Ryung, more foreigners (hardly a star Protoss lineup. Still, Taeja manages to drop games to Crank, elfi, Hasu, Babyknight, and MacSed, before going on to become the #1 player of the year two weeks later.) Proleague 1-1 Parting, herO vs Cure, Maru Final tally: 136-145 PvT, 47% Now count up the number of times Innovation, Maru, Bomber, Taeja, MMA, Polt, jjakji showed up on that list. (26) Now count up the number of times Dear, sOs, Rain, Trap, HerO, Naniwa, Parting showed up on that list. (13) Should the results really be 53% for Terran with those specific players playing? Should they really? Honestly, now. The results should be 70% for Terran with those players coming out so much. they've been practicing bio for how long? Years? How long has mech sucked? Years. Why would you expect players that already can't expect to do better against toss to suddenly switch to mech because a recent patch just made it imbalanced, if you actually know how to play mech? So according to you, playing mech is a non-transferable skill? Because Terrans have actually been doing it in TvT and TvZ for "Years." I think they know the hotkey for Siege Mode, and I think they're as tired of losing to foreigner/Code A Korean all-ins as we are of seeing it. I'm not saying it's impossible for someone out there - say, Taeja - to start going mech in TvP and winning. What I'm saying is saying "mech needs a nerf" is fucking ridiculous. Even if Taeja did go on a murder spree, that would prove nothing except that he's still one of the best players in the world. Now if Marineking came back out of retirement and started winning with mech in TvP, then, and only then, might you have a point. Then again, what kinda reasoning can you expect from someone that doesn't even realize I'm talking about mech, when it's abundantly clear, if not explicitly mentioned in every sentence? Don't care about ladder. Ok, I hope you're not one of those people that repeatedly harps on how many toss players are in GM, then. I'm not one of those people, but I've got nothing against them. I don't personally care about how the game plays at lower levels. That doesn't mean it can't tell us valuable things about upper levels. We just have to figure out which lower level trends are actually meaningful across the board, and which ones aren't. On first glance, the "no Terrans on ladder" stat seems considerably more relevant than Blizzard's artificial 55-45 numbers. You're kinda silly, so I have to return the favor and not read all of that. How to explain 22-19 in a group with lucifron and sjow? Is that a joke? The oracle buff was a pretty big change because the oracle was absolutely worthless and now terrans actually have to prepare for it/can lose to it. I'm not saying they didn't go too far or not, I'm just saying it's an adjustment period and I can't see the numbers ever being lower than that. As someone that obviously played mech in t vs p, in bw, I would never mech in t vs z, whether it was imbalanced or not on certain maps. Playing mech in one mu really has little bearing on playing mech in other mu's. It wouldn't be that different from learning a new mu. Top terrans career stats are insane against protoss. Last time I checked, only one unit got buffed in p vs t. A unit that's not even made in most games. I think they will manage. I would love for someone to think about how many B+ or better Terrans in BW are actually playing SC 2 as Terran. You might be surprised, but there's hardly anyone that would have been the equivalent level of GM in foreigner BW that is playing terran in SC 2. If the game were balanced, I have no idea why anyone wouldn't expect a discrepancy. Makes no sense. Nerf protoss all-ins and there would be a lot fewer toss GM's and there should be fewer, but there still shouldn't be many good terrans. I missed one word by accident so you decide to be a dick on purpose. Nice. Take Sjow and Luci out of the equation, that's still 16-19 sOs, Patience, HerO, JYP, Naniwa, Stardust vs. Inno, MMA, Polt, Taeja, ForGG. Innovation, MMA, Polt are all Top 16 Code S level players, and you're telling me that a 57% win ratio makes sense here? They should be steamrolling through Patience, JYP, Stardust, making them look like fucking scrubs. Instead, Patience takes 7 games and JYP takes 4, both on bigger stages than Patience and JYP have ever seen in their lives, where Inno, MMA, Polt are veterans. Why don't we invite JYP and Patience to Code S next season, while we're at it. "But the Oracle is OP!" you say. So for some reason the best Terrans in the world can't adapt to mech being OP, but Code A Koreans somehow figure out how good the Oracle is within two weeks. Right.Either it's opposite month, or maybe you just don't know what the hell you're talking about with mech at high levels of play. Those are all good players. Gameday form, levels of focus/preparation etc. all factor into this. You would find results like this for every single matchup, including mirrors. Excellent job compiling the list, but unfortunately it doesn't really prove the point you thought it did.
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On December 18 2013 11:56 SniXSniPe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 11:10 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 11:06 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 09:38 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 09:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 08:21 playa wrote:
I, for one, would love for toss to not be able to execute any all-ins. As someone that hasn't even 4 gated before, not only could I care less if it were impossible for toss to all-in, but after every game, I now have to get berated because players are so but hurt over things that happened to them in other games...
If anyone can have GM p vs p by cannon rushing or GM level p vs t by making the decision to do blink all-ins, it probably should be nerfed. It should be harder than a simple decision to do an all-in strategy.
That said, I hope mech gets nerfed. I have no idea why players don't play mech in t vs p or how they lose when they do, and this is coming from someone that may have lost to it 3 times prepatch/buff. Free 3-3 on air units? Are you serious? You have to make air units to beat anyone half decent... if you can't win air fights with that kinda advantage.
I'm pretty sure toss players could switch to terran and get GM if they decided to mech. It wouldn't be an accomplishment either. Protoss get free 3-3 on their heavy ground units (Immo, Colossus) just for upgrading Zealots/Stalkers. Terrans get free 3-3 on air units for upgradig mech. But Vikings are only useful against Colossi. I'd say the Protoss actually get the better end of this upgrading business in the current metagame. So few units are good against terran mech (immortals, archons). All of the good units on the ground are countered by emp. You can't expect to win a game on the ground. The real strength of toss prepatch was building up a superior economy and switching to air units in the late game when terran either didn't have the free supply for vikings or the economy to match you in the air. Now, since it's impossible to have an advantage in air upgrades, there's really nothing you can do/plan for besides to try to all-in on the ground. Maybe hit them before they can get enough ghosts... If you try to upgrade air and ground... and try to keep it close enough for it to matter in upgrades, you have no chance of killing them. Have to play defensive and you're still going to be behind in upgrades, no matter what. There's really nothing to look forward to. It wasn't balanced before, and now it's just as imbalanced on the other side. Cheaper upgrades for terran, sure. But completely removing the need? That's a joke. Airtoss in PvT? "Can't expect to win a game on the ground"? What? Did you watch Red Bull, Blizzcon, Dreamhack? All-in still good unit. So is everything Protoss has on the ground. It was before the patch, it still is now. I can't remember the last time I saw airtoss in a premier tournament since like... Rain vs. Maru on Polar Night a million years ago. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Unless you're talking about ladder, which I don't really care about all that much. I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you talking about bio games? Zealots get eaten alive by hellbats. Stalkers? Worst unit there is. Wouldn't make it if it started with 3-3 against mech. I don't want to all-in. And if all-ins are the best way to play and anyone can do them... I hope they get nerfed asap. Edit: you know why no terrans mech at a high level? Because, besides Bomber, they all own toss at that level. They probably feel like it's not worth the risk since they're already faring incredibly well, and even if they did use mech, it would probably just end up getting nerfed... Hopefully more players start using it in t vs z, so changes have to be made... oh god, tell me you are trolling
Nah, it's a standard comment for him.
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On December 18 2013 15:18 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 15:10 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 14:43 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 13:51 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 11:25 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 11:18 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 11:10 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 11:06 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 09:38 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 09:11 pure.Wasted wrote:
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Protoss get free 3-3 on their heavy ground units (Immo, Colossus) just for upgrading Zealots/Stalkers. Terrans get free 3-3 on air units for upgradig mech. But Vikings are only useful against Colossi. I'd say the Protoss actually get the better end of this upgrading business in the current metagame. So few units are good against terran mech (immortals, archons). All of the good units on the ground are countered by emp. You can't expect to win a game on the ground. The real strength of toss prepatch was building up a superior economy and switching to air units in the late game when terran either didn't have the free supply for vikings or the economy to match you in the air. Now, since it's impossible to have an advantage in air upgrades, there's really nothing you can do/plan for besides to try to all-in on the ground. Maybe hit them before they can get enough ghosts... If you try to upgrade air and ground... and try to keep it close enough for it to matter in upgrades, you have no chance of killing them. Have to play defensive and you're still going to be behind in upgrades, no matter what. There's really nothing to look forward to. It wasn't balanced before, and now it's just as imbalanced on the other side. Cheaper upgrades for terran, sure. But completely removing the need? That's a joke. Airtoss in PvT? "Can't expect to win a game on the ground"? What? Did you watch Red Bull, Blizzcon, Dreamhack? All-in still good unit. So is everything Protoss has on the ground. It was before the patch, it still is now. I can't remember the last time I saw airtoss in a premier tournament since like... Rain vs. Maru on Polar Night a million years ago. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Unless you're talking about ladder, which I don't really care about all that much. I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you talking about bio games? Zealots get eaten alive by hellbats. Stalkers? Worst unit there is. Wouldn't make it if it started with 3-3 against mech. I don't want to all-in. And if all-ins are the best way to play and anyone can do them... I hope they get nerfed asap. I edited my post once I saw we were talking about different things. I don't really care about ladder (although I do empathize with your desire to play standard macro games). I'm talking about tournaments only, where top tier Protoss not going airtoss go toe-to-toe with top tier Terrans playing bio the same as they've always done. You said "mech should get nerfed." At top levels of play, mech vs. P does not exist. Consequently it does not need a nerf, it needs a buff. Makes no sense to me. Not only do the top level terrans have what, 70% or higher win rate against toss according to TLPD PvT with major Korean presence since Blizzcon: Blizzcon 15-11 sOs, duckdeok, MC, Dear vs Bomber, Maru, Polt, Inno, Taeja (with fucking duckdeok contributing 5 wins over Innovation and Maru, rest seems fine) HS8 16-21 HerO, MC, Babyknight, Socke, Titan, ToD, Harstem, Huk, Hasu vs Taeja, jjakji, dayshi, Heromarine, Happy, Kas, Thorzain (Taeja, jjakji > HerO, MC, seems right) Team League 14-19 Dear and Trap (7 games) vs Inno, MMA, Bomber (10 games) - not usually in direct competition, however, mostly taking out Code A Koreans. RedBull 2-1 Parting vs Bomber DHW 22-19 sOs, Patience, HerO, JYP, Naniwa, Stardust vs. Inno, MMA, Polt, Taeja, ForGG, Sjow, Lucifron (feel free to explain how that comes out to 22-19) IEM Singapore 12-13 herO, Squirtle, Grubby, San, Avenge, Oz, Has vs. Bomber, Mvp, Hack, Dream, SeleCT Dailymotion 11-12 Squirtle, San, Oz, ToD vs. Inno, MMA, Polt, ForGG (lol? OK) ASUS Rog 13-13 San, elfi, socke, welmu vs. Inno, jjakji, MMA, Wulfen, Lucifron (again lol?) ACER Teamstory 42-48 HerO, San, Alicia, HwangSin, Crank, a bunch of foreigners vs. Taeja, Inno, MMA, thestc, ForGG, Ryung, more foreigners (hardly a star Protoss lineup. Still, Taeja manages to drop games to Crank, elfi, Hasu, Babyknight, and MacSed, before going on to become the #1 player of the year two weeks later.) Proleague 1-1 Parting, herO vs Cure, Maru Final tally: 136-145 PvT, 47% Now count up the number of times Innovation, Maru, Bomber, Taeja, MMA, Polt, jjakji showed up on that list. (26) Now count up the number of times Dear, sOs, Rain, Trap, HerO, Naniwa, Parting showed up on that list. (13) Should the results really be 53% for Terran with those specific players playing? Should they really? Honestly, now. The results should be 70% for Terran with those players coming out so much. they've been practicing bio for how long? Years? How long has mech sucked? Years. Why would you expect players that already can't expect to do better against toss to suddenly switch to mech because a recent patch just made it imbalanced, if you actually know how to play mech? So according to you, playing mech is a non-transferable skill? Because Terrans have actually been doing it in TvT and TvZ for "Years." I think they know the hotkey for Siege Mode, and I think they're as tired of losing to foreigner/Code A Korean all-ins as we are of seeing it. I'm not saying it's impossible for someone out there - say, Taeja - to start going mech in TvP and winning. What I'm saying is saying "mech needs a nerf" is fucking ridiculous. Even if Taeja did go on a murder spree, that would prove nothing except that he's still one of the best players in the world. Now if Marineking came back out of retirement and started winning with mech in TvP, then, and only then, might you have a point. Then again, what kinda reasoning can you expect from someone that doesn't even realize I'm talking about mech, when it's abundantly clear, if not explicitly mentioned in every sentence? Don't care about ladder. Ok, I hope you're not one of those people that repeatedly harps on how many toss players are in GM, then. I'm not one of those people, but I've got nothing against them. I don't personally care about how the game plays at lower levels. That doesn't mean it can't tell us valuable things about upper levels. We just have to figure out which lower level trends are actually meaningful across the board, and which ones aren't. On first glance, the "no Terrans on ladder" stat seems considerably more relevant than Blizzard's artificial 55-45 numbers. You're kinda silly, so I have to return the favor and not read all of that. How to explain 22-19 in a group with lucifron and sjow? Is that a joke? The oracle buff was a pretty big change because the oracle was absolutely worthless and now terrans actually have to prepare for it/can lose to it. I'm not saying they didn't go too far or not, I'm just saying it's an adjustment period and I can't see the numbers ever being lower than that. As someone that obviously played mech in t vs p, in bw, I would never mech in t vs z, whether it was imbalanced or not on certain maps. Playing mech in one mu really has little bearing on playing mech in other mu's. It wouldn't be that different from learning a new mu. Top terrans career stats are insane against protoss. Last time I checked, only one unit got buffed in p vs t. A unit that's not even made in most games. I think they will manage. I would love for someone to think about how many B+ or better Terrans in BW are actually playing SC 2 as Terran. You might be surprised, but there's hardly anyone that would have been the equivalent level of GM in foreigner BW that is playing terran in SC 2. If the game were balanced, I have no idea why anyone wouldn't expect a discrepancy. Makes no sense. Nerf protoss all-ins and there would be a lot fewer toss GM's and there should be fewer, but there still shouldn't be many good terrans. I missed one word by accident so you decide to be a dick on purpose. Nice. Take Sjow and Luci out of the equation, that's still 16-19 sOs, Patience, HerO, JYP, Naniwa, Stardust vs. Inno, MMA, Polt, Taeja, ForGG. Innovation, MMA, Polt are all Top 16 Code S level players, and you're telling me that a 57% win ratio makes sense here? They should be steamrolling through Patience, JYP, Stardust, making them look like fucking scrubs. Instead, Patience takes 7 games and JYP takes 4, both on bigger stages than Patience and JYP have ever seen in their lives, where Inno, MMA, Polt are veterans. Why don't we invite JYP and Patience to Code S next season, while we're at it. "But the Oracle is OP!" you say. So for some reason the best Terrans in the world can't adapt to mech being OP, but Code A Koreans somehow figure out how good the Oracle is within two weeks. Right.Either it's opposite month, or maybe you just don't know what the hell you're talking about with mech at high levels of play. Those are all good players. Gameday form, levels of focus/preparation etc. all factor into this. You would find results like this for every single matchup, including mirrors.
While I agree that a lot of unseen factors play a role in tournament results, I disagree that we would find results like this for every single matchup. In fact, I feel like I already proved it. By definition, Protoss are doing better in PvT because their weaker players are beating stronger players over the course of 2 months. Unless you're saying that it's normal for Code A/B players to have a 47% win ratio against top 16 Code S-level players, because the skillgap is actually very small? If that's what you're saying, I strongly disagree, and I want the results to reflect that difference much more strongly regardless of what the culprit is right now - balance, game design, or both.
Since you enjoyed my stats, here are some more! 
+ Show Spoiler +Life's record against Protoss in the last 2 months: 3-2 Welmu, 4-1 Patience, 2-1 Naniwa, 2-0 JYP, 2-1 Stardust, 2-0 ToD, 0-1 Hurricane, 0-1 Seed, 0-1 Dear, 1-0 HwangSin, 2-1 Super, 4-2 Naniwa, 3-0 HerO, 4-2 Zest, 2-0 puck, 2-0 Aria, 2-1 Trust. 35-14, that's 71%. That right there is, in my opinion, an all right Code S Top 8 player score, accounting for off days and his opponents being on fire. He had four Code S level matches (Dear, loss; Hero, win; Naniwa twice, win) and then a bunch of Code A/B level players and then a couple of workingman foreigners whom, with the exception of Welmu, he demolished. It's on the low end but approaching the right ballpark. Without non-Nani foreigners, it's 70%, with four Code S matches still in the picture. Dear's record against Terran in the last 2 months: 1-0 Ryung, 3-1 Taeja, 3-1 Maru, 3-1 Maru. 10-3, that's 77%. That's better. His competition is pretty stacked, but people say he's the best Protoss in the world, so I guess it's well earned. (I've yet to be blown away by him, but that's neither here nor there.) Innovation vs. P: 3-1 San, 3-0 Welmu, 2-3 San, 0-2 Patience, 2-0 JYP, 2-0 sOs, 2-0 ToD, 1-0 Trap, 2-3 duckdeok, 1-0 San, 1-0 Daisy, 1-0 Babyknight, 1-0 Mana. 21-9, that's 70%. Now look at his opponents. 3-0 of that is from beating Welmu. Who the fuck is Welmu? There's one Code S level player in this bunch, Trap, whom I think the jury is still out on, and they played a grand total of one game anyway. Every other opponent in this list is Code A at best. 5-0 of Innovation's score is against foreigners. Against Koreans, Dear is 77% and Inno is 64%.* Inno has some of the best mechanics in the world, Dear has amazing game sense, and that gets us... a 13% difference in Dear's favor? When Inno is facing Code A/B players and Dear is facing Code S Top 8? Really? *Then again, against Code S Koreans, Dear is 75% and Inno is 100%, so the sample sizes leave something to be desired. 
SC2 has a tendency to under-reward players with excellent macro, micro, and multitasking, in favor of BOs and hard counters, and right now Protoss is the epitome of that. Amazing players are punished for not having scouted every inch of the map, and even if they do, easy to execute builds like the Blink Stalker "All-in" (which is very easy to transition out of if even a little bit of damage is dealt) can still be extremely difficult to stop. Very low risk, very high reward, very bad gameplay.
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Final tally: 136-145 PvT, 47%
Now count up the number of times Innovation, Maru, Bomber, Taeja, MMA, Polt, jjakji showed up on that list. (26)
Now count up the number of times Dear, sOs, Rain, Trap, HerO, Naniwa, Parting showed up on that list. (13)
Do you just kind of assume that Patience, Squirtle, Duckdeok, Stardust, San, Avenge, Alicia, Crank, Oz, JYP, Trap and MC are terrible players by default and should never get any wins?
With the lineup you 'chose' to write, it still seems pretty balanced to me.
The balance patch we had awhile ago Oracle Buff, Widow Mine nerf, Combined Upgrades buff, is a kind of patch that will really hurt Terran right on release, but will after some time benefit Terran the most.
We get more gimmick, you get less, but you also gained a core buff.
Not to say that the Protoss players that are wrecking face right now deserve just as much credit as all the Terran stars.
Look at Taeja and MMA and say that you cannot be the most dominant player on planet earth if you have the skill.
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EPT
