EPTPvZ 18–16 (52.94%)
TvZ 8–8 (50.00%)
T imba in PvT
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 846
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
PvZ 18–16 (52.94%) TvZ 8–8 (50.00%) T imba in PvT | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
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Ana_
Finland453 Posts
On December 18 2013 22:00 shadymmj wrote: The problem is that the oracle is a dumb arse unit. It's practically a flying cheesemobile. I challenge anyone to dispute this definition. It is a flying discoball. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On December 18 2013 21:53 keglu wrote: PvT 17–23 (42.50%) PvZ 18–16 (52.94%) TvZ 8–8 (50.00%) T imba in PvT Is this just from liquipedia or from ESL website. A lot of Terrans went down in the first round. I think there are like 15 Terrans vs 27 Protoss in the 4 bracket Ro16. Notice that only 3 Terrans made it to Ro4 in their brackets while 8 Protoss did. It is not really useful to look at win rates from 1 tournament unless you have fairly representation to begin with. Let say you have only 1 Protoss in code S. They can beat one Terran who isn't even top 10 and lose to a top 10 Terran and TvP would still be 50%. It is like how ladder normalizes to 50/50, as more Protoss make it to tournaments, only the top Terrans are left and thus they can still make it 50/50. Same thing with foreign events, so many foreign teams have picked up KR Terrans (since foreign Terrans are lacking), you end up with 7 KR Terrans and 3 foreign Terrans playing against 4 KR Protoss and 6 foreign Protoss. Yeah, win rates might be even. But if you told 3 KR Terran and 7 foreign Terrans and matched them against 6 KR Protoss and 4 foreign Protoss, the Terrans would get slaughtered. If you look 2011 Nov Code S, you had 5 Protoss vs 19 Terrans. PvT was actually 56% (thanks in part to calm before the storm). Doesn't mean the meta game was shifting towards P. It just meant only the top PvT Protoss survived to stay in code S and got to play some mediocre Terrans. If it was top 5 PvT Protoss vs top 5 TvP Terran, Protoss would have gotten crushed. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 18 2013 22:00 shadymmj wrote: The problem is that the oracle is a dumb arse unit. It's practically a flying cheesemobile. I challenge anyone to dispute this definition. Oracle openings seem pretty standard in TvP these days (also to a certain degree in PvP). It's a flying supersolidstandardmobile. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On December 18 2013 22:16 Big J wrote: Oracle openings seem pretty standard in TvP these days (also to a certain degree in PvP). It's a flying supersolidstandardmobile. Which is sad on its own.. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On December 18 2013 22:14 vthree wrote: Is this just from liquipedia or from ESL website. A lot of Terrans went down in the first round. I think there are like 15 Terrans vs 27 Protoss in the 4 bracket Ro16. Notice that only 3 Terrans made it to Ro4 in their brackets while 8 Protoss did. It is not really useful to look at win rates from 1 tournament unless you have fairly representation to begin with. Let say you have only 1 Protoss in code S. They can beat one Terran who isn't even top 10 and lose to a top 10 Terran and TvP would still be 50%. It is like how ladder normalizes to 50/50, as more Protoss make it to tournaments, only the top Terrans are left and thus they can still make it 50/50. Same thing with foreign events, so many foreign teams have picked up KR Terrans (since foreign Terrans are lacking), you end up with 7 KR Terrans and 3 foreign Terrans playing against 4 KR Protoss and 6 foreign Protoss. Yeah, win rates might be even. But if you told 3 KR Terran and 7 foreign Terrans and matched them against 6 KR Protoss and 4 foreign Protoss, the Terrans would get slaughtered. Little worrying sign is that now also in Korea there are significantly less Terran participants in tournaments. It was quite normal for rest of the world for some time now but in Korea T usually held strong. From aligulac: List 99 :227 PvP, 102 TvT, 338 ZvZ List 100: 158 PvP, 59 TvT, 142 ZvZ Huge difference For example middle of 2011 (list 35) 216 PvP, 246 TvT, 148 ZvZ middle of 2012 (list 60) 286 PvP, 199 TvT, 351 ZvZ This is not good sign for tournaments success in the future. For example in this qualifier T had overall best winrates but was still least represented race in last rounds (3/16,1/8) | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
This kinda shows there's about 1/8th Terran at these tournaments? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
no, only the fact that it decides games very often is sad. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
Is it that PvT is imba at the pro level? Or that P is imba on the ladder? Or that everything about P is just totally imba? At the pro level, there have been fluctuations in win rates since the beginning of the game and they will likely continue for a really long time. There were periods of Terran dominance and Zerg dominance earlier in SC2. I don't think a few months of Protoss winning is enough to merit the kind of reactions I'm seeing here. On the ladder, it's a totally different issue. But when people talk about things like Mech and suggest TvP builds, the immediate response is "that only works on the ladder" or "that only works at a low level." Well, maybe, but isn't that applicable to the ladder players that are complaining? So I'm not quite sure what the issue is here. | ||
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MTAC
103 Posts
- Issue is that Terran is stuck on the same Bioplay since 2+ years. - Issue is that Terran have only 2 builds who both goes toward lategame or if the toss don't go HT first, 12min SCVtrain. - Issue is that toss dictate early game with 10 different all-ins, most of them can be a macro opening even if they don't do a lot of damage, and most of them demands very different defenses from the T point of view. - Issue is that toss dictate the lategame with the deathball too. - Issue is that we have less and less T players and more and more P players, both on ladder and tournaments: down to 20%T and up to 50%P of total players sometimes. - Issue is that while HoTS terran do the same thing/build than in Wol, MSC allows the toss to not spend ANY MONEY on sentry. That's like 4 to 6 hundred gas in a macro game, faster tech/ups etc.... T don't have new units on this MU, nor any new builds, while toss do the same thing than before, but with faster tech, faster ups etc... while in mid/end Wol, as frustrating as PvT was, winrates were more even than now ? - Issue is that the game is slowly loosing playerbase and viewerbase because of that kind of things, and that I don't play T anymore, because playing 10 matchs versus P 5 versus Z for 1 versus T is just the most boring ladder experience ever. | ||
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
On December 18 2013 23:52 DinoMight wrote: I'm not really sure what it is that people are complaining about. Is it that PvT is imba at the pro level? Or that P is imba on the ladder? Or that everything about P is just totally imba? At the pro level, there have been fluctuations in win rates since the beginning of the game and they will likely continue for a really long time. There were periods of Terran dominance and Zerg dominance earlier in SC2. I don't think a few months of Protoss winning is enough to merit the kind of reactions I'm seeing here. On the ladder, it's a totally different issue. But when people talk about things like Mech and suggest TvP builds, the immediate response is "that only works on the ladder" or "that only works at a low level." Well, maybe, but isn't that applicable to the ladder players that are complaining? So I'm not quite sure what the issue is here. List 99 :227 PvP, 102 TvT, 338 ZvZ List 100: 158 PvP, 59 TvT, 142 ZvZ Issue. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On December 18 2013 23:52 DinoMight wrote: I'm not really sure what it is that people are complaining about. Is it that PvT is imba at the pro level? Or that P is imba on the ladder? Or that everything about P is just totally imba? At the pro level, there have been fluctuations in win rates since the beginning of the game and they will likely continue for a really long time. There were periods of Terran dominance and Zerg dominance earlier in SC2. I don't think a few months of Protoss winning is enough to merit the kind of reactions I'm seeing here. On the ladder, it's a totally different issue. But when people talk about things like Mech and suggest TvP builds, the immediate response is "that only works on the ladder" or "that only works at a low level." Well, maybe, but isn't that applicable to the ladder players that are complaining? So I'm not quite sure what the issue is here. Cause watching and playing TvP is not a fun experience. Cause Protoss openings are so strong that it can cause a much superior player (Bomber), to lose to basically what amounts to crap (NA Ladder). The MU hasn't changed essentially since 2010. If Blizzard truly cared about variety when they nerfed mines in TvZ, they should've looked at TvP way before hand. IMO, this is Terran's version of WoL PvZ. You either win in the midgame, or lose everywhere else. Is that really hard to comprehend? | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 19 2013 00:05 MTAC wrote: The issue ? - Issue is that Terran is stuck on the same Bioplay since 2+ years. - Issue is that Terran have only 2 builds who both goes toward lategame or if the toss don't go HT first, 12min SCVtrain. - Issue is that toss dictate early game with 10 different all-ins, most of them can be a macro opening even if they don't do a lot of damage, and most of them demands very different defenses from the T point of view. - Issue is that toss dictate the lategame with the deathball too. - Issue is that we have less and less T players and more and more P players, both on ladder and tournaments: down to 20%T and up to 50%P of total players sometimes. - Issue is that while HoTS terran do the same thing/build than in Wol, MSC allows the toss to not spend ANY MONEY on sentry. That's like 4 to 6 hundred gas in a macro game, faster tech/ups etc.... T don't have new units on this MU, nor any new builds, while toss do the same thing than before, but with faster tech, faster ups etc... while in mid/end Wol, as frustrating as PvT was, winrates were more even than now ? - Issue is that the game is slowly loosing playerbase and viewerbase because of that kind of things, and that I don't play T anymore, because playing 10 matchs versus P 5 versus Z for 1 versus T is just the most boring ladder experience ever. You're wrong. -Stim bio and Medivacs beats every Protoss allin. Turrets counter both DT and Oracles. Reaper has also been buffed to be very good at scouting. So scout the cheese, build bunkers (that you can salvage later) and you will hold 90% of cheese. You often hear casters say stuff like "he's going to be in a lot of trouble as soon as stim finishes." There's a reason for that. -More Protoss players does not mean something is imbalanced. It just means there are more Protoss players. Maybe Protoss units look prettier and that attracts more people. More people play Pikachu than other characters in Super Smash Brothers but that doesn't mean he's imba (far from it). -There are Terran builds designed to punish over-reliance on the Mothership core. Allowing a Protoss to build nothing but a MsC is your own fault. It's akin to letting a Terran go 3CC off 1 bunker. A small group of stimmed bio can focus down a Nexus quite quickly. -400-600 gas on sentries? What are you smoking? I used to make maaaaybe 3-4 sentries? MsC costs 100 gas so the gas saving is closer to 200-300 if I build NO sentries. Most people still get 1-2 sentries. So it's about 100-200 gas saved. -Win rates in the pro scene fluctuate in every matchup. For the last few months, Protoss is finally achieving notable results. Is it really that bad? Terran and Zerg have dominated for the entire history of professional SC2 prior to that. -The game is losing players because it's getting older. When Legacy of the Void comes out that number will spike again and then come down. It happens with every game. WoW is down to 7 million subscribers from a peak of 11 million. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 19 2013 00:19 Chaggi wrote: Cause watching and playing TvP is not a fun experience. Cause Protoss openings are so strong that it can cause a much superior player (Bomber), to lose to basically what amounts to crap (NA Ladder). The MU hasn't changed essentially since 2010. If Blizzard truly cared about variety when they nerfed mines in TvZ, they should've looked at TvP way before hand. IMO, this is Terran's version of WoL PvZ. You either win in the midgame, or lose everywhere else. Is that really hard to comprehend? You are wrong. Maru vs. Dear from WCS KR was one of the most fun series. Extremely high action and very back and forth. Parting vs. Bomber (the game featured on TL's main page) was also very fun to watch. Especially with Bomber going Hellbats against Protoss, which is something we don't see often. Good that some players are innovating. Bomber lost a few games on ladder. So what?? I see a lot of pros lose on their streams. Often they are trying new things that they haven't practiced or not playing very seriously. I see LiquidHerO lose to random ladder scrubs all the time. I would say the matchup has changed a lot since WoL. Instead of 1 medivac drop in each base you're seein a lot more big fights, you're seeing a lot more doom drops, and you're seeing a lot more factory focused play. Good Terrans are incorporating widow mines into their defenses, and I've even seen MMA stop a Blink all-in and counterpush with Marine Tank to win the game. | ||
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
could you give me a build that is designed to punish over reliance on MSC? | ||
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MTAC
103 Posts
-400-600 gas on sentries? What are you smoking? I used to make maaaaybe 3-4 sentries? MsC costs 100 gas so the gas saving is closer to 200-300 if I build NO sentries. Most people still get 1-2 sentries. So it's about 100-200 gas saved. I'm smoking all my mid/high masters match TvP in WoL, while I was playing aggressive with marines in order to kill a few probes or a few sentries. Therefore toss build even more sentry ==> later upgrades And most people now dont make any sentry, that's what i was able to win a few match with 1Rax FE into 6rax at 19/19. But with half a brain you see that with your lot and cancel your up, warp a sentry, win. -More Protoss players does not mean something is imbalanced. It just means there are more Protoss players. Maybe Protoss units look prettier and that attracts more people. More people play Pikachu than other characters in Super Smash Brothers but that doesn't mean he's imba (far from it). And when they were more Terran it was because terran was Imba? kkthx There are Terran builds designed to punish over-reliance on the Mothership core. Allowing a Protoss to build nothing but a MsC is your own fault. It's akin to letting a Terran go 3CC off 1 bunker. A small group of stimmed bio can focus down a Nexus quite quickly. Not before drops are out and toss is out of position. That cant happen before 11/12, or the toss does not have half a brain. My point is not that PvT is sOOOOOOOOOOOOOO mba. I think it is imba but not that much, it's that this is the most unfair MU in SC2. And no, it's not because the game is getting old, it's because it does not lead to an esport competition worth it anymore, while being designed only for that. You want E-sport? see other games. You want fun games? see other ones. You want esport RTS? you stuck with SC2, or with BW. Unless, skill ceiling, diversity, 'fairness' gets back to the game, the next RTS game slightly devoted toward esport to comes out will crush sc2 as it never was | ||
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Snusmumriken
Sweden1717 Posts
Youre delusional. Protoss players are only slightly overrepresented in comparison to terran in terms of race representation as a whole, yet they make up close to 50% of gm and almost 37% in master. Despite your bullshit objections, terran has one viable build and that is reaper expand. Any other build relies heavily on protoss doing a particular build themselves and if they dont then youre FUCKED. As opposed to all the early pressures protoss can do, neither of which relies on terran doing this or that, and most of which are perfectly fine openers in a macrogame and pretty much guarantees at least some damage if not instant kill, especially if both players arent dear and innovation since the build is MUCH more easy to execute than to hold. But im not going to bother arguing with you, its just an exercise in futility. Might as well try to show fanatical muslims why there is no god. | ||
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
On December 19 2013 00:37 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: dude you seem to be kinda partial. could you give me a build that is designed to punish over reliance on MSC? The 5 min 2 medivac 16 marine stim push? This troll just said stim bio with medivacs holds all the Protoss all ins. I think mass carriers also hold off the 1-1-1 back in WoL as well. | ||
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Swiipii
2195 Posts
On December 19 2013 00:27 DinoMight wrote: -More Protoss players does not mean something is imbalanced. It just means there are more Protoss players. Maybe Protoss units look prettier and that attracts more people. I laughed thank you. | ||
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