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On December 18 2013 08:59 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 08:33 TheDwf wrote:On December 18 2013 08:31 DinoMight wrote:On December 18 2013 08:24 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 18 2013 08:09 DinoMight wrote:On December 18 2013 07:59 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 18 2013 07:31 DinoMight wrote:On December 18 2013 07:16 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 17 2013 16:29 JSK wrote:On December 17 2013 15:44 Survivor61316 wrote:
Well I think I'm finally switching races..Terran is just too hard to play anymore. TvP is clearly broken, and I feel like TvZ is slowing slipping to favoring the zerg. So I guess its time to learn zerg..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss. But not too much self respect to bitch about it on the forums. What a surprise! Lmao..I love little kids like you on the internet. Being able to just shit on people without having to worry about real life consequences has warped your little brain so much. I fail to see how me typing out one sentence saying I'm switching races, even with a dig at toss, constitutes "bitching." Go back to school and expand your vocabulary... "..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss" Rofl. People like you who equate playing terran to fucking buying your coffee from the local store are the worst kind of "little kid" on TL. If you want to switch races, you're free to do so. But if you're going to insult Protoss players doing it by implying that we have no self respect, people are going to get mad at you and you just have to deal with it. Ok first of all I hate coffee..and idk if youve been reading everything thats been posted on this forum, but I am far from the only one who thinks that protoss is an easy to use, low-skill ceiling, terribly designed race. Particularly in PvT..deathball with storms and colossi is so brainlessly easy its sickening to even watch anymore. Even Demuslim, a notoriously well mannered guy, was talking about how broken the MU is on his stream just 2 weeks ago. Unfortunately there's nothing that can really be done to balance it because then PvZ would be broken instead, hence the reason for switching races. And really, if youre gonna sit there and try to tell me that Toss isnt op then yes, I am going to continue to question whether you have self respect or not; brotoss fanboys are just as bad now as patch zergs were at the end of WOL..I'm just waiting for someone to finally pull a ryung and throw up an "IMBA IMBA IMBA..." I played Protoss in 1998 when StarCraft came out. I played Protoss when Brood War came out and until StarCraft 2. I played Protoss through the GomTvT era when 1/1/1 dominated the matchup and everyone was complaining. I played Protoss through the patchzerg era and Infestor/Brood Lord days where it was "allin or die to Brood Lords." I played Protoss through the Hots beta and early Hots when widow mine and Hellbat drops were imba as fuck. And I still play Protoss now, when finally, Protoss seems to be the race to hate. You may think that because you play Terran in a "tough time for Terran" that makes you special shit, but keep in mind that this back and forth between the races has been going on for a long time. And to say someone has no self respect because they play a race that is strong now is dumb, especially if they played it when it was statistically, BY FAR, the worst race. You give your entire starcraft gaming pedigree and have the gull to say that I think I'm special?? I'm under no such illusion bro, although you clearly seem to think your shit dont stink. The balance problems in TvP go back to WOL man, and have only been further exacerbated by the MSC. The widow mines havent been balanced since you say they were "imba as fuck" which would logically argue that it was less about being imba and more about toss adapting (which they have done marvelously), and hellbat drops were much more of a problem in the other MUs than in PvT. Even so, that was a small reprieve for Terrans during a lengthy time where Toss has been favored in the MU. In WOL it was close enough not to constitute a real problem (i.e. it was in acceptable parameters of balance) but to argue that it's still not a problem is ridiculous. Go back and watch the Bo5 between Huk and Polt last night if you want a perfect example of this; Huk, who is clearly a lower caliber player than Polt, should never take that to game 5, particularly in such a convincing fashion. Lol. So when something Terran is "imba" Protoss has to adapt. But when something Protoss is imba, Terran continues to do the same exact Rax, CC, 2 more rax into 3rd CC build order they've been doing since the 1/1/1 went out of style? And then whines about it? How about you adapt. Bro. Your game knowledge is quite horrible if you think 1 rax FE into 3 rax Medivacs is still the standard build in TvP. Besides, neither Mines nor Hellbats were imbalanced in TvP anyway. Also, telling me that something is clearly imba because HuK lost to Polt is a stupid argument. In all sports there are upsets. I think if you look at Polt's lifetime win rate vs. HuK and other players it's obvious who the better player is, race aside. The fact that HuK made one match close is meaningless. Except those "upsets" are all too common nowadays in PvX match-ups. Just in the last major tournament, Asus, we had Welmu one game away from winning Life in a bo5 and elfi winning 3:2 vs jjakji. You have to be blind not to see that pattern of inferior Protoss players winning or coming way too close (given the skill gap) against superior opponents. (And ironically, it seems it can also happen in PvP...) Quoting Life games is hilarious when he lost to Sjow at a DH. I'm sure TvZ was balanced when that happened though. Foreigners occasionally beating Koreans in a single series has never been valid for balance whine.
The game clearly wasnt balanced then in ZvT, which is why Sjow won...just like now its not balanced in TvP, which is why Toss are doing so much better...thanks for proving the point though O_o
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On December 18 2013 08:31 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 08:24 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 18 2013 08:09 DinoMight wrote:On December 18 2013 07:59 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 18 2013 07:31 DinoMight wrote:On December 18 2013 07:16 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 17 2013 16:29 JSK wrote:On December 17 2013 15:44 Survivor61316 wrote:
Well I think I'm finally switching races..Terran is just too hard to play anymore. TvP is clearly broken, and I feel like TvZ is slowing slipping to favoring the zerg. So I guess its time to learn zerg..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss. But not too much self respect to bitch about it on the forums. What a surprise! Lmao..I love little kids like you on the internet. Being able to just shit on people without having to worry about real life consequences has warped your little brain so much. I fail to see how me typing out one sentence saying I'm switching races, even with a dig at toss, constitutes "bitching." Go back to school and expand your vocabulary... "..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss" Rofl. People like you who equate playing terran to fucking buying your coffee from the local store are the worst kind of "little kid" on TL. If you want to switch races, you're free to do so. But if you're going to insult Protoss players doing it by implying that we have no self respect, people are going to get mad at you and you just have to deal with it. Ok first of all I hate coffee..and idk if youve been reading everything thats been posted on this forum, but I am far from the only one who thinks that protoss is an easy to use, low-skill ceiling, terribly designed race. Particularly in PvT..deathball with storms and colossi is so brainlessly easy its sickening to even watch anymore. Even Demuslim, a notoriously well mannered guy, was talking about how broken the MU is on his stream just 2 weeks ago. Unfortunately there's nothing that can really be done to balance it because then PvZ would be broken instead, hence the reason for switching races. And really, if youre gonna sit there and try to tell me that Toss isnt op then yes, I am going to continue to question whether you have self respect or not; brotoss fanboys are just as bad now as patch zergs were at the end of WOL..I'm just waiting for someone to finally pull a ryung and throw up an "IMBA IMBA IMBA..." I played Protoss in 1998 when StarCraft came out. I played Protoss when Brood War came out and until StarCraft 2. I played Protoss through the GomTvT era when 1/1/1 dominated the matchup and everyone was complaining. I played Protoss through the patchzerg era and Infestor/Brood Lord days where it was "allin or die to Brood Lords." I played Protoss through the Hots beta and early Hots when widow mine and Hellbat drops were imba as fuck. And I still play Protoss now, when finally, Protoss seems to be the race to hate. You may think that because you play Terran in a "tough time for Terran" that makes you special shit, but keep in mind that this back and forth between the races has been going on for a long time. And to say someone has no self respect because they play a race that is strong now is dumb, especially if they played it when it was statistically, BY FAR, the worst race. You give your entire starcraft gaming pedigree and have the gull to say that I think I'm special?? I'm under no such illusion bro, although you clearly seem to think your shit dont stink. The balance problems in TvP go back to WOL man, and have only been further exacerbated by the MSC. The widow mines havent been balanced since you say they were "imba as fuck" which would logically argue that it was less about being imba and more about toss adapting (which they have done marvelously), and hellbat drops were much more of a problem in the other MUs than in PvT. Even so, that was a small reprieve for Terrans during a lengthy time where Toss has been favored in the MU. In WOL it was close enough not to constitute a real problem (i.e. it was in acceptable parameters of balance) but to argue that it's still not a problem is ridiculous. Go back and watch the Bo5 between Huk and Polt last night if you want a perfect example of this; Huk, who is clearly a lower caliber player than Polt, should never take that to game 5, particularly in such a convincing fashion. Lol. So when something Terran is "imba" Protoss has to adapt. But when something Protoss is imba, Terran continues to do the same exact Rax, CC, 2 more rax into 3rd CC build order they've been doing since the 1/1/1 went out of style? And then they whine about it? How about you adapt. Bro. Also, telling me that something is clearly imba because HuK lost to Polt is a stupid argument. In all sports there are upsets. I think if you look at Polt's lifetime win rate vs. HuK and other players it's obvious who the better player is, race aside. The fact that HuK made one match close is meaningless.
Lol, Protoss adapted to 1-1-1? Maps got bigger and immortals got buffed. Not saying these changes weren't needed. But don't make it like. Protoss adapted...
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On December 18 2013 08:59 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 08:33 TheDwf wrote:On December 18 2013 08:31 DinoMight wrote:On December 18 2013 08:24 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 18 2013 08:09 DinoMight wrote:On December 18 2013 07:59 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 18 2013 07:31 DinoMight wrote:On December 18 2013 07:16 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 17 2013 16:29 JSK wrote:On December 17 2013 15:44 Survivor61316 wrote:
Well I think I'm finally switching races..Terran is just too hard to play anymore. TvP is clearly broken, and I feel like TvZ is slowing slipping to favoring the zerg. So I guess its time to learn zerg..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss. But not too much self respect to bitch about it on the forums. What a surprise! Lmao..I love little kids like you on the internet. Being able to just shit on people without having to worry about real life consequences has warped your little brain so much. I fail to see how me typing out one sentence saying I'm switching races, even with a dig at toss, constitutes "bitching." Go back to school and expand your vocabulary... "..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss" Rofl. People like you who equate playing terran to fucking buying your coffee from the local store are the worst kind of "little kid" on TL. If you want to switch races, you're free to do so. But if you're going to insult Protoss players doing it by implying that we have no self respect, people are going to get mad at you and you just have to deal with it. Ok first of all I hate coffee..and idk if youve been reading everything thats been posted on this forum, but I am far from the only one who thinks that protoss is an easy to use, low-skill ceiling, terribly designed race. Particularly in PvT..deathball with storms and colossi is so brainlessly easy its sickening to even watch anymore. Even Demuslim, a notoriously well mannered guy, was talking about how broken the MU is on his stream just 2 weeks ago. Unfortunately there's nothing that can really be done to balance it because then PvZ would be broken instead, hence the reason for switching races. And really, if youre gonna sit there and try to tell me that Toss isnt op then yes, I am going to continue to question whether you have self respect or not; brotoss fanboys are just as bad now as patch zergs were at the end of WOL..I'm just waiting for someone to finally pull a ryung and throw up an "IMBA IMBA IMBA..." I played Protoss in 1998 when StarCraft came out. I played Protoss when Brood War came out and until StarCraft 2. I played Protoss through the GomTvT era when 1/1/1 dominated the matchup and everyone was complaining. I played Protoss through the patchzerg era and Infestor/Brood Lord days where it was "allin or die to Brood Lords." I played Protoss through the Hots beta and early Hots when widow mine and Hellbat drops were imba as fuck. And I still play Protoss now, when finally, Protoss seems to be the race to hate. You may think that because you play Terran in a "tough time for Terran" that makes you special shit, but keep in mind that this back and forth between the races has been going on for a long time. And to say someone has no self respect because they play a race that is strong now is dumb, especially if they played it when it was statistically, BY FAR, the worst race. You give your entire starcraft gaming pedigree and have the gull to say that I think I'm special?? I'm under no such illusion bro, although you clearly seem to think your shit dont stink. The balance problems in TvP go back to WOL man, and have only been further exacerbated by the MSC. The widow mines havent been balanced since you say they were "imba as fuck" which would logically argue that it was less about being imba and more about toss adapting (which they have done marvelously), and hellbat drops were much more of a problem in the other MUs than in PvT. Even so, that was a small reprieve for Terrans during a lengthy time where Toss has been favored in the MU. In WOL it was close enough not to constitute a real problem (i.e. it was in acceptable parameters of balance) but to argue that it's still not a problem is ridiculous. Go back and watch the Bo5 between Huk and Polt last night if you want a perfect example of this; Huk, who is clearly a lower caliber player than Polt, should never take that to game 5, particularly in such a convincing fashion. Lol. So when something Terran is "imba" Protoss has to adapt. But when something Protoss is imba, Terran continues to do the same exact Rax, CC, 2 more rax into 3rd CC build order they've been doing since the 1/1/1 went out of style? And then whines about it? How about you adapt. Bro. Your game knowledge is quite horrible if you think 1 rax FE into 3 rax Medivacs is still the standard build in TvP. Besides, neither Mines nor Hellbats were imbalanced in TvP anyway. Also, telling me that something is clearly imba because HuK lost to Polt is a stupid argument. In all sports there are upsets. I think if you look at Polt's lifetime win rate vs. HuK and other players it's obvious who the better player is, race aside. The fact that HuK made one match close is meaningless. Except those "upsets" are all too common nowadays in PvX match-ups. Just in the last major tournament, Asus, we had Welmu one game away from winning Life in a bo5 and elfi winning 3:2 vs jjakji. You have to be blind not to see that pattern of inferior Protoss players winning or coming way too close (given the skill gap) against superior opponents. (And ironically, it seems it can also happen in PvP...) Quoting Life games is hilarious when he lost to Sjow at a DH. I'm sure TvZ was balanced when that happened though. Foreigners occasionally beating Koreans in a single series has never been valid for balance whine.
SjoW didn't win by hiding a tech building or using easy all-ins that still have chances to prevail despite being scouted. The point isn't only those "individual upsets," but what they say about the bigger picture; Koreans, regardless of their race (but particularly for certain match-ups...), lose much more to non-Korean Protoss than to non-Korean Terrans. SjoW vs Life was like the upset of the year, while a Protoss x or y winning a better player, particularly with all-ins, is desperately mundane.
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On December 18 2013 08:21 playa wrote:
I, for one, would love for toss to not be able to execute any all-ins. As someone that hasn't even 4 gated before, not only could I care less if it were impossible for toss to all-in, but after every game, I now have to get berated because players are so but hurt over things that happened to them in other games...
If anyone can have GM p vs p by cannon rushing or GM level p vs t by making the decision to do blink all-ins, it probably should be nerfed. It should be harder than a simple decision to do an all-in strategy.
That said, I hope mech gets nerfed. I have no idea why players don't play mech in t vs p or how they lose when they do, and this is coming from someone that may have lost to it 3 times prepatch/buff. Free 3-3 on air units? Are you serious? You have to make air units to beat anyone half decent... if you can't win air fights with that kinda advantage.
I'm pretty sure toss players could switch to terran and get GM if they decided to mech. It wouldn't be an accomplishment either.
Protoss get free 3-3 on their heavy ground units (Immo, Colossus) just for upgrading Zealots/Stalkers. Terrans get free 3-3 on air units for upgradig mech. But Vikings are only useful against Colossi. I'd say the Protoss actually get the better end of this upgrading business in the current metagame.
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i dont get why everybody is complaining about tvp.
playing zerg these days is just a pain in the ass. you are just a little ball the other races play around with and abuse the shit out of you. every game is fucking frustating. trying to get a good eco, since if you dont 3base you just lose, and only try to stay alive while defending. and in the end no reward in the lategame for defending like 15minutes each game. lategame becomes even harder.
its not supposed to be a balancewhine but a zergisnotfunwhine.
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On December 18 2013 09:11 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 08:21 playa wrote:
I, for one, would love for toss to not be able to execute any all-ins. As someone that hasn't even 4 gated before, not only could I care less if it were impossible for toss to all-in, but after every game, I now have to get berated because players are so but hurt over things that happened to them in other games...
If anyone can have GM p vs p by cannon rushing or GM level p vs t by making the decision to do blink all-ins, it probably should be nerfed. It should be harder than a simple decision to do an all-in strategy.
That said, I hope mech gets nerfed. I have no idea why players don't play mech in t vs p or how they lose when they do, and this is coming from someone that may have lost to it 3 times prepatch/buff. Free 3-3 on air units? Are you serious? You have to make air units to beat anyone half decent... if you can't win air fights with that kinda advantage.
I'm pretty sure toss players could switch to terran and get GM if they decided to mech. It wouldn't be an accomplishment either. Protoss get free 3-3 on their heavy ground units (Immo, Colossus) just for upgrading Zealots/Stalkers. Terrans get free 3-3 on air units for upgradig mech. But Vikings are only useful against Colossi. I'd say the Protoss actually get the better end of this upgrading business in the current metagame.
So few units are good against terran mech (immortals, archons). All of the good units on the ground are countered by emp. You can't expect to win a game on the ground. The real strength of toss prepatch was building up a superior economy and switching to air units in the late game when terran either didn't have the free supply for vikings or the economy to match you in the air.
Now, since it's impossible to have an advantage in air upgrades, there's really nothing you can do/plan for besides to try to all-in on the ground. Maybe hit them before they can get enough ghosts... If you try to upgrade air and ground... and try to keep it close enough for it to matter in upgrades, you have no chance of killing them. Have to play defensive and you're still going to be behind in upgrades, no matter what. There's really nothing to look forward to.
It wasn't balanced before, and now it's just as imbalanced on the other side. Cheaper upgrades for terran, sure. But completely removing the need? That's a joke.
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On December 18 2013 09:10 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 08:59 Wingblade wrote:On December 18 2013 08:33 TheDwf wrote:On December 18 2013 08:31 DinoMight wrote:On December 18 2013 08:24 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 18 2013 08:09 DinoMight wrote:On December 18 2013 07:59 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 18 2013 07:31 DinoMight wrote:On December 18 2013 07:16 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 17 2013 16:29 JSK wrote:
[quote]
But not too much self respect to bitch about it on the forums. What a surprise!
Lmao..I love little kids like you on the internet. Being able to just shit on people without having to worry about real life consequences has warped your little brain so much. I fail to see how me typing out one sentence saying I'm switching races, even with a dig at toss, constitutes "bitching." Go back to school and expand your vocabulary... "..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss" Rofl. People like you who equate playing terran to fucking buying your coffee from the local store are the worst kind of "little kid" on TL. If you want to switch races, you're free to do so. But if you're going to insult Protoss players doing it by implying that we have no self respect, people are going to get mad at you and you just have to deal with it. Ok first of all I hate coffee..and idk if youve been reading everything thats been posted on this forum, but I am far from the only one who thinks that protoss is an easy to use, low-skill ceiling, terribly designed race. Particularly in PvT..deathball with storms and colossi is so brainlessly easy its sickening to even watch anymore. Even Demuslim, a notoriously well mannered guy, was talking about how broken the MU is on his stream just 2 weeks ago. Unfortunately there's nothing that can really be done to balance it because then PvZ would be broken instead, hence the reason for switching races. And really, if youre gonna sit there and try to tell me that Toss isnt op then yes, I am going to continue to question whether you have self respect or not; brotoss fanboys are just as bad now as patch zergs were at the end of WOL..I'm just waiting for someone to finally pull a ryung and throw up an "IMBA IMBA IMBA..." I played Protoss in 1998 when StarCraft came out. I played Protoss when Brood War came out and until StarCraft 2. I played Protoss through the GomTvT era when 1/1/1 dominated the matchup and everyone was complaining. I played Protoss through the patchzerg era and Infestor/Brood Lord days where it was "allin or die to Brood Lords." I played Protoss through the Hots beta and early Hots when widow mine and Hellbat drops were imba as fuck. And I still play Protoss now, when finally, Protoss seems to be the race to hate. You may think that because you play Terran in a "tough time for Terran" that makes you special shit, but keep in mind that this back and forth between the races has been going on for a long time. And to say someone has no self respect because they play a race that is strong now is dumb, especially if they played it when it was statistically, BY FAR, the worst race. You give your entire starcraft gaming pedigree and have the gull to say that I think I'm special?? I'm under no such illusion bro, although you clearly seem to think your shit dont stink. The balance problems in TvP go back to WOL man, and have only been further exacerbated by the MSC. The widow mines havent been balanced since you say they were "imba as fuck" which would logically argue that it was less about being imba and more about toss adapting (which they have done marvelously), and hellbat drops were much more of a problem in the other MUs than in PvT. Even so, that was a small reprieve for Terrans during a lengthy time where Toss has been favored in the MU. In WOL it was close enough not to constitute a real problem (i.e. it was in acceptable parameters of balance) but to argue that it's still not a problem is ridiculous. Go back and watch the Bo5 between Huk and Polt last night if you want a perfect example of this; Huk, who is clearly a lower caliber player than Polt, should never take that to game 5, particularly in such a convincing fashion. Lol. So when something Terran is "imba" Protoss has to adapt. But when something Protoss is imba, Terran continues to do the same exact Rax, CC, 2 more rax into 3rd CC build order they've been doing since the 1/1/1 went out of style? And then whines about it? How about you adapt. Bro. Your game knowledge is quite horrible if you think 1 rax FE into 3 rax Medivacs is still the standard build in TvP. Besides, neither Mines nor Hellbats were imbalanced in TvP anyway. Also, telling me that something is clearly imba because HuK lost to Polt is a stupid argument. In all sports there are upsets. I think if you look at Polt's lifetime win rate vs. HuK and other players it's obvious who the better player is, race aside. The fact that HuK made one match close is meaningless. Except those "upsets" are all too common nowadays in PvX match-ups. Just in the last major tournament, Asus, we had Welmu one game away from winning Life in a bo5 and elfi winning 3:2 vs jjakji. You have to be blind not to see that pattern of inferior Protoss players winning or coming way too close (given the skill gap) against superior opponents. (And ironically, it seems it can also happen in PvP...) Quoting Life games is hilarious when he lost to Sjow at a DH. I'm sure TvZ was balanced when that happened though. Foreigners occasionally beating Koreans in a single series has never been valid for balance whine. SjoW didn't win by hiding a tech building or using easy all-ins that still have chances to prevail despite being scouted. The point isn't only those "individual upsets," but what they say about the bigger picture; Koreans, regardless of their race (but particularly for certain match-ups...), lose much more to non-Korean Protoss than to non-Korean Terrans. SjoW vs Life was like the upset of the year, while a Protoss x or y winning a better player, particularly with all-ins, is desperately mundane.
Hmm, I'm not sure if one got more attention or if I was just following the scene more at the time of Life vs. SjoW. Would you say Life losing to Sjow was a bigger deal to most people than Innovation losing to Naniwa?
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On December 18 2013 09:05 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 08:31 DinoMight wrote:On December 18 2013 08:24 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 18 2013 08:09 DinoMight wrote:On December 18 2013 07:59 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 18 2013 07:31 DinoMight wrote:On December 18 2013 07:16 Survivor61316 wrote:On December 17 2013 16:29 JSK wrote:On December 17 2013 15:44 Survivor61316 wrote:
Well I think I'm finally switching races..Terran is just too hard to play anymore. TvP is clearly broken, and I feel like TvZ is slowing slipping to favoring the zerg. So I guess its time to learn zerg..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss. But not too much self respect to bitch about it on the forums. What a surprise! Lmao..I love little kids like you on the internet. Being able to just shit on people without having to worry about real life consequences has warped your little brain so much. I fail to see how me typing out one sentence saying I'm switching races, even with a dig at toss, constitutes "bitching." Go back to school and expand your vocabulary... "..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss" Rofl. People like you who equate playing terran to fucking buying your coffee from the local store are the worst kind of "little kid" on TL. If you want to switch races, you're free to do so. But if you're going to insult Protoss players doing it by implying that we have no self respect, people are going to get mad at you and you just have to deal with it. Ok first of all I hate coffee..and idk if youve been reading everything thats been posted on this forum, but I am far from the only one who thinks that protoss is an easy to use, low-skill ceiling, terribly designed race. Particularly in PvT..deathball with storms and colossi is so brainlessly easy its sickening to even watch anymore. Even Demuslim, a notoriously well mannered guy, was talking about how broken the MU is on his stream just 2 weeks ago. Unfortunately there's nothing that can really be done to balance it because then PvZ would be broken instead, hence the reason for switching races. And really, if youre gonna sit there and try to tell me that Toss isnt op then yes, I am going to continue to question whether you have self respect or not; brotoss fanboys are just as bad now as patch zergs were at the end of WOL..I'm just waiting for someone to finally pull a ryung and throw up an "IMBA IMBA IMBA..." I played Protoss in 1998 when StarCraft came out. I played Protoss when Brood War came out and until StarCraft 2. I played Protoss through the GomTvT era when 1/1/1 dominated the matchup and everyone was complaining. I played Protoss through the patchzerg era and Infestor/Brood Lord days where it was "allin or die to Brood Lords." I played Protoss through the Hots beta and early Hots when widow mine and Hellbat drops were imba as fuck. And I still play Protoss now, when finally, Protoss seems to be the race to hate. You may think that because you play Terran in a "tough time for Terran" that makes you special shit, but keep in mind that this back and forth between the races has been going on for a long time. And to say someone has no self respect because they play a race that is strong now is dumb, especially if they played it when it was statistically, BY FAR, the worst race. You give your entire starcraft gaming pedigree and have the gull to say that I think I'm special?? I'm under no such illusion bro, although you clearly seem to think your shit dont stink. The balance problems in TvP go back to WOL man, and have only been further exacerbated by the MSC. The widow mines havent been balanced since you say they were "imba as fuck" which would logically argue that it was less about being imba and more about toss adapting (which they have done marvelously), and hellbat drops were much more of a problem in the other MUs than in PvT. Even so, that was a small reprieve for Terrans during a lengthy time where Toss has been favored in the MU. In WOL it was close enough not to constitute a real problem (i.e. it was in acceptable parameters of balance) but to argue that it's still not a problem is ridiculous. Go back and watch the Bo5 between Huk and Polt last night if you want a perfect example of this; Huk, who is clearly a lower caliber player than Polt, should never take that to game 5, particularly in such a convincing fashion. Lol. So when something Terran is "imba" Protoss has to adapt. But when something Protoss is imba, Terran continues to do the same exact Rax, CC, 2 more rax into 3rd CC build order they've been doing since the 1/1/1 went out of style? And then they whine about it? How about you adapt. Bro. Also, telling me that something is clearly imba because HuK lost to Polt is a stupid argument. In all sports there are upsets. I think if you look at Polt's lifetime win rate vs. HuK and other players it's obvious who the better player is, race aside. The fact that HuK made one match close is meaningless. Lol, Protoss adapted to 1-1-1? Maps got bigger and immortals got buffed. Not saying these changes weren't needed. But don't make it like. Protoss adapted...
I remember that 2 weeks before the patches, there were 2 protoss builds going around to easily hold off 1-1-1. (standard 1gate expand follow ups). Yes it was figured out basically right before the immortal buff came in additionally.
I love this crying here about the "1-1-1 era". You got what you wanted out of it and even more (the unjustified cheaper upgrades came together with the immortal buff) and NOONE really complained ever about that.
I find it funny that the image is sold here, that without the MSC in WoL, Protoss were the punching bag for all those terran cheeses and allins and that they suffered so hard back then. For most of 2012 TvP was Protoss favored, but I guess, people tend to forget quickly.
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terran players are hilarious
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On December 18 2013 09:38 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 09:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 08:21 playa wrote:
I, for one, would love for toss to not be able to execute any all-ins. As someone that hasn't even 4 gated before, not only could I care less if it were impossible for toss to all-in, but after every game, I now have to get berated because players are so but hurt over things that happened to them in other games...
If anyone can have GM p vs p by cannon rushing or GM level p vs t by making the decision to do blink all-ins, it probably should be nerfed. It should be harder than a simple decision to do an all-in strategy.
That said, I hope mech gets nerfed. I have no idea why players don't play mech in t vs p or how they lose when they do, and this is coming from someone that may have lost to it 3 times prepatch/buff. Free 3-3 on air units? Are you serious? You have to make air units to beat anyone half decent... if you can't win air fights with that kinda advantage.
I'm pretty sure toss players could switch to terran and get GM if they decided to mech. It wouldn't be an accomplishment either. Protoss get free 3-3 on their heavy ground units (Immo, Colossus) just for upgrading Zealots/Stalkers. Terrans get free 3-3 on air units for upgradig mech. But Vikings are only useful against Colossi. I'd say the Protoss actually get the better end of this upgrading business in the current metagame. So few units are good against terran mech (immortals, archons). All of the good units on the ground are countered by emp. You can't expect to win a game on the ground. The real strength of toss prepatch was building up a superior economy and switching to air units in the late game when terran either didn't have the free supply for vikings or the economy to match you in the air. Now, since it's impossible to have an advantage in air upgrades, there's really nothing you can do/plan for besides to try to all-in on the ground. Maybe hit them before they can get enough ghosts... If you try to upgrade air and ground... and try to keep it close enough for it to matter in upgrades, you have no chance of killing them. Have to play defensive and you're still going to be behind in upgrades, no matter what. There's really nothing to look forward to. It wasn't balanced before, and now it's just as imbalanced on the other side. Cheaper upgrades for terran, sure. But completely removing the need? That's a joke.
Airtoss in PvT? "Can't expect to win a game on the ground"? What? Did you watch Red Bull, Blizzcon, Dreamhack? All-in still good unit. So is everything Protoss has on the ground. It was before the patch, it still is now.
I can't remember the last time I saw airtoss in a premier tournament since like... Rain vs. Maru on Polar Night a million years ago. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Unless you're talking about ladder, which I don't really care about all that much.
edit: just noticed you said "mech." OK, you're obviously talking about ladder. Ladder doesn't interest me, except insofar as it actually speaks to things going on at the highest level. (This doesn't, because no Ts mech vs. P at a high level)
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On December 18 2013 11:06 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 09:38 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 09:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 08:21 playa wrote:
I, for one, would love for toss to not be able to execute any all-ins. As someone that hasn't even 4 gated before, not only could I care less if it were impossible for toss to all-in, but after every game, I now have to get berated because players are so but hurt over things that happened to them in other games...
If anyone can have GM p vs p by cannon rushing or GM level p vs t by making the decision to do blink all-ins, it probably should be nerfed. It should be harder than a simple decision to do an all-in strategy.
That said, I hope mech gets nerfed. I have no idea why players don't play mech in t vs p or how they lose when they do, and this is coming from someone that may have lost to it 3 times prepatch/buff. Free 3-3 on air units? Are you serious? You have to make air units to beat anyone half decent... if you can't win air fights with that kinda advantage.
I'm pretty sure toss players could switch to terran and get GM if they decided to mech. It wouldn't be an accomplishment either. Protoss get free 3-3 on their heavy ground units (Immo, Colossus) just for upgrading Zealots/Stalkers. Terrans get free 3-3 on air units for upgradig mech. But Vikings are only useful against Colossi. I'd say the Protoss actually get the better end of this upgrading business in the current metagame. So few units are good against terran mech (immortals, archons). All of the good units on the ground are countered by emp. You can't expect to win a game on the ground. The real strength of toss prepatch was building up a superior economy and switching to air units in the late game when terran either didn't have the free supply for vikings or the economy to match you in the air. Now, since it's impossible to have an advantage in air upgrades, there's really nothing you can do/plan for besides to try to all-in on the ground. Maybe hit them before they can get enough ghosts... If you try to upgrade air and ground... and try to keep it close enough for it to matter in upgrades, you have no chance of killing them. Have to play defensive and you're still going to be behind in upgrades, no matter what. There's really nothing to look forward to. It wasn't balanced before, and now it's just as imbalanced on the other side. Cheaper upgrades for terran, sure. But completely removing the need? That's a joke. Airtoss in PvT? "Can't expect to win a game on the ground"? What? Did you watch Red Bull, Blizzcon, Dreamhack? All-in still good unit. So is everything Protoss has on the ground. It was before the patch, it still is now. I can't remember the last time I saw airtoss in a premier tournament since like... Rain vs. Maru on Polar Night a million years ago. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Unless you're talking about ladder, which I don't really care about all that much.
I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you talking about bio games? Zealots get eaten alive by hellbats. Stalkers? Worst unit there is. Wouldn't make it if it started with 3-3 against mech. I don't want to all-in. And if all-ins are the best way to play and anyone can do them... I hope they get nerfed asap.
Edit: you know why no terrans mech at a high level? Because, besides Bomber, they all own toss at that level. They probably feel like it's not worth the risk since they're already faring incredibly well, and even if they did use mech, it would probably just end up getting nerfed... Hopefully more players start using it in t vs z, so changes have to be made...
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 1-1-1 era only lasted a few months (I was only casually active for that period)... Again, I could be wrong, but can someone provide evidence of when it became prominent to when the immo patch hit?
TvP has been broken long before the recent oracle buff. Blink all ins with the MsC have been around since HotS beta.
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On December 18 2013 11:10 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 11:06 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 09:38 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 09:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 08:21 playa wrote:
I, for one, would love for toss to not be able to execute any all-ins. As someone that hasn't even 4 gated before, not only could I care less if it were impossible for toss to all-in, but after every game, I now have to get berated because players are so but hurt over things that happened to them in other games...
If anyone can have GM p vs p by cannon rushing or GM level p vs t by making the decision to do blink all-ins, it probably should be nerfed. It should be harder than a simple decision to do an all-in strategy.
That said, I hope mech gets nerfed. I have no idea why players don't play mech in t vs p or how they lose when they do, and this is coming from someone that may have lost to it 3 times prepatch/buff. Free 3-3 on air units? Are you serious? You have to make air units to beat anyone half decent... if you can't win air fights with that kinda advantage.
I'm pretty sure toss players could switch to terran and get GM if they decided to mech. It wouldn't be an accomplishment either. Protoss get free 3-3 on their heavy ground units (Immo, Colossus) just for upgrading Zealots/Stalkers. Terrans get free 3-3 on air units for upgradig mech. But Vikings are only useful against Colossi. I'd say the Protoss actually get the better end of this upgrading business in the current metagame. So few units are good against terran mech (immortals, archons). All of the good units on the ground are countered by emp. You can't expect to win a game on the ground. The real strength of toss prepatch was building up a superior economy and switching to air units in the late game when terran either didn't have the free supply for vikings or the economy to match you in the air. Now, since it's impossible to have an advantage in air upgrades, there's really nothing you can do/plan for besides to try to all-in on the ground. Maybe hit them before they can get enough ghosts... If you try to upgrade air and ground... and try to keep it close enough for it to matter in upgrades, you have no chance of killing them. Have to play defensive and you're still going to be behind in upgrades, no matter what. There's really nothing to look forward to. It wasn't balanced before, and now it's just as imbalanced on the other side. Cheaper upgrades for terran, sure. But completely removing the need? That's a joke. Airtoss in PvT? "Can't expect to win a game on the ground"? What? Did you watch Red Bull, Blizzcon, Dreamhack? All-in still good unit. So is everything Protoss has on the ground. It was before the patch, it still is now. I can't remember the last time I saw airtoss in a premier tournament since like... Rain vs. Maru on Polar Night a million years ago. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Unless you're talking about ladder, which I don't really care about all that much. I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you talking about bio games? Zealots get eaten alive by hellbats. Stalkers? Worst unit there is. Wouldn't make it if it started with 3-3 against mech. I don't want to all-in. And if all-ins are the best way to play and anyone can do them... I hope they get nerfed asap.
I edited my post once I saw we were talking about different things. I don't really care about ladder (although I do empathize with your desire to play standard macro games). I'm talking about tournaments only, where top tier Protoss not going airtoss go toe-to-toe with top tier Terrans playing bio the same as they've always done.
You said "mech should get nerfed." At top levels of play, mech vs. P does not exist. Consequently it does not need a nerf, it needs a buff.
Edit: you know why no terrans mech at a high level? Because, besides Bomber, they all own toss at that level. They probably feel like it's not worth the risk since they're already faring incredibly well, and even if they did use mech, it would probably just end up getting nerfed... Hopefully more players start using it in t vs z, so changes have to be made...
Umm... that's a nice theory, except Terrans are not dominating Toss at a high level, mech or no mech. Just look at Patience vs. Every Terran In The Galaxy at Dreamhack. Dear beat Taeja in straight up macro fights at Blizzcon, same with sOs and Polt - and as we saw at DH Polt is in fighting form right now.
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On December 18 2013 09:38 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 09:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 08:21 playa wrote:
I, for one, would love for toss to not be able to execute any all-ins. As someone that hasn't even 4 gated before, not only could I care less if it were impossible for toss to all-in, but after every game, I now have to get berated because players are so but hurt over things that happened to them in other games...
If anyone can have GM p vs p by cannon rushing or GM level p vs t by making the decision to do blink all-ins, it probably should be nerfed. It should be harder than a simple decision to do an all-in strategy.
That said, I hope mech gets nerfed. I have no idea why players don't play mech in t vs p or how they lose when they do, and this is coming from someone that may have lost to it 3 times prepatch/buff. Free 3-3 on air units? Are you serious? You have to make air units to beat anyone half decent... if you can't win air fights with that kinda advantage.
I'm pretty sure toss players could switch to terran and get GM if they decided to mech. It wouldn't be an accomplishment either. Protoss get free 3-3 on their heavy ground units (Immo, Colossus) just for upgrading Zealots/Stalkers. Terrans get free 3-3 on air units for upgradig mech. But Vikings are only useful against Colossi. I'd say the Protoss actually get the better end of this upgrading business in the current metagame. So few units are good against terran mech (immortals, archons). All of the good units on the ground are countered by emp. You can't expect to win a game on the ground. The real strength of toss prepatch was building up a superior economy and switching to air units in the late game when terran either didn't have the free supply for vikings or the economy to match you in the air. Now, since it's impossible to have an advantage in air upgrades, there's really nothing you can do/plan for besides to try to all-in on the ground. Maybe hit them before they can get enough ghosts... If you try to upgrade air and ground... and try to keep it close enough for it to matter in upgrades, you have no chance of killing them. Have to play defensive and you're still going to be behind in upgrades, no matter what. There's really nothing to look forward to. It wasn't balanced before, and now it's just as imbalanced on the other side. Cheaper upgrades for terran, sure. But completely removing the need? That's a joke.
There is a big timing window for protoss to exploit before terran can get that mech + ghost army out. You cannot just look at compositions in a vacuum. BCs w/ ghosts to EMP them were good vs Protoss in WoL (If only Mvp didn't stack all his BCs vs Squirtle). But getting there is the issue. Same with BC/raven comps vs zerg in WoL, it was great but not viable on a lot of the maps because you get overrun before you get enough of your comp out.
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On December 18 2013 11:10 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 11:06 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 09:38 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 09:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 08:21 playa wrote:
I, for one, would love for toss to not be able to execute any all-ins. As someone that hasn't even 4 gated before, not only could I care less if it were impossible for toss to all-in, but after every game, I now have to get berated because players are so but hurt over things that happened to them in other games...
If anyone can have GM p vs p by cannon rushing or GM level p vs t by making the decision to do blink all-ins, it probably should be nerfed. It should be harder than a simple decision to do an all-in strategy.
That said, I hope mech gets nerfed. I have no idea why players don't play mech in t vs p or how they lose when they do, and this is coming from someone that may have lost to it 3 times prepatch/buff. Free 3-3 on air units? Are you serious? You have to make air units to beat anyone half decent... if you can't win air fights with that kinda advantage.
I'm pretty sure toss players could switch to terran and get GM if they decided to mech. It wouldn't be an accomplishment either. Protoss get free 3-3 on their heavy ground units (Immo, Colossus) just for upgrading Zealots/Stalkers. Terrans get free 3-3 on air units for upgradig mech. But Vikings are only useful against Colossi. I'd say the Protoss actually get the better end of this upgrading business in the current metagame. So few units are good against terran mech (immortals, archons). All of the good units on the ground are countered by emp. You can't expect to win a game on the ground. The real strength of toss prepatch was building up a superior economy and switching to air units in the late game when terran either didn't have the free supply for vikings or the economy to match you in the air. Now, since it's impossible to have an advantage in air upgrades, there's really nothing you can do/plan for besides to try to all-in on the ground. Maybe hit them before they can get enough ghosts... If you try to upgrade air and ground... and try to keep it close enough for it to matter in upgrades, you have no chance of killing them. Have to play defensive and you're still going to be behind in upgrades, no matter what. There's really nothing to look forward to. It wasn't balanced before, and now it's just as imbalanced on the other side. Cheaper upgrades for terran, sure. But completely removing the need? That's a joke. Airtoss in PvT? "Can't expect to win a game on the ground"? What? Did you watch Red Bull, Blizzcon, Dreamhack? All-in still good unit. So is everything Protoss has on the ground. It was before the patch, it still is now. I can't remember the last time I saw airtoss in a premier tournament since like... Rain vs. Maru on Polar Night a million years ago. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Unless you're talking about ladder, which I don't really care about all that much. I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you talking about bio games? Zealots get eaten alive by hellbats. Stalkers? Worst unit there is. Wouldn't make it if it started with 3-3 against mech. I don't want to all-in. And if all-ins are the best way to play and anyone can do them... I hope they get nerfed asap. Edit: you know why no terrans mech at a high level? Because, besides Bomber, they all own toss at that level. They probably feel like it's not worth the risk since they're already faring incredibly well, and even if they did use mech, it would probably just end up getting nerfed... Hopefully more players start using it in t vs z, so changes have to be made...
Top terrans are faring well? Maybe vs foreign Ps in foreign tournaments. But against the likes of Rain, Dear, CJHero, Sora?
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On December 18 2013 11:18 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 11:10 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 11:06 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 09:38 playa wrote:On December 18 2013 09:11 pure.Wasted wrote:On December 18 2013 08:21 playa wrote:
I, for one, would love for toss to not be able to execute any all-ins. As someone that hasn't even 4 gated before, not only could I care less if it were impossible for toss to all-in, but after every game, I now have to get berated because players are so but hurt over things that happened to them in other games...
If anyone can have GM p vs p by cannon rushing or GM level p vs t by making the decision to do blink all-ins, it probably should be nerfed. It should be harder than a simple decision to do an all-in strategy.
That said, I hope mech gets nerfed. I have no idea why players don't play mech in t vs p or how they lose when they do, and this is coming from someone that may have lost to it 3 times prepatch/buff. Free 3-3 on air units? Are you serious? You have to make air units to beat anyone half decent... if you can't win air fights with that kinda advantage.
I'm pretty sure toss players could switch to terran and get GM if they decided to mech. It wouldn't be an accomplishment either. Protoss get free 3-3 on their heavy ground units (Immo, Colossus) just for upgrading Zealots/Stalkers. Terrans get free 3-3 on air units for upgradig mech. But Vikings are only useful against Colossi. I'd say the Protoss actually get the better end of this upgrading business in the current metagame. So few units are good against terran mech (immortals, archons). All of the good units on the ground are countered by emp. You can't expect to win a game on the ground. The real strength of toss prepatch was building up a superior economy and switching to air units in the late game when terran either didn't have the free supply for vikings or the economy to match you in the air. Now, since it's impossible to have an advantage in air upgrades, there's really nothing you can do/plan for besides to try to all-in on the ground. Maybe hit them before they can get enough ghosts... If you try to upgrade air and ground... and try to keep it close enough for it to matter in upgrades, you have no chance of killing them. Have to play defensive and you're still going to be behind in upgrades, no matter what. There's really nothing to look forward to. It wasn't balanced before, and now it's just as imbalanced on the other side. Cheaper upgrades for terran, sure. But completely removing the need? That's a joke. Airtoss in PvT? "Can't expect to win a game on the ground"? What? Did you watch Red Bull, Blizzcon, Dreamhack? All-in still good unit. So is everything Protoss has on the ground. It was before the patch, it still is now. I can't remember the last time I saw airtoss in a premier tournament since like... Rain vs. Maru on Polar Night a million years ago. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Unless you're talking about ladder, which I don't really care about all that much. I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you talking about bio games? Zealots get eaten alive by hellbats. Stalkers? Worst unit there is. Wouldn't make it if it started with 3-3 against mech. I don't want to all-in. And if all-ins are the best way to play and anyone can do them... I hope they get nerfed asap. I edited my post once I saw we were talking about different things. I don't really care about ladder (although I do empathize with your desire to play standard macro games). I'm talking about tournaments only, where top tier Protoss not going airtoss go toe-to-toe with top tier Terrans playing bio the same as they've always done. You said "mech should get nerfed." At top levels of play, mech vs. P does not exist. Consequently it does not need a nerf, it needs a buff.
Makes no sense to me. Not only do the top level terrans have what, 70% or higher win rate against toss according to TLPD, but they've been practicing bio for how long? Years? How long has mech sucked? Years. Why would you expect players that already can't expect to do better against toss to suddenly switch to mech because a recent patch just made it imbalanced, if you actually know how to play mech?
What are they going to do, take the time to learn mech and then have it get nerfed when the obvious becomes apparent? They already tried this in beta... and they recanted it because it was imbalanced... this isn't exactly new ground.
Then again, what kinda reasoning can you expect from someone that doesn't even realize I'm talking about mech, when it's abundantly clear, if not explicitly mentioned in every sentence? Don't care about ladder. Ok, I hope you're not one of those people that repeatedly harps on how many toss players are in GM, then.
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PvT has a roughly 54% winrate according to alligulac, dunno where your 70% figure comes from.
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On December 18 2013 08:52 Mantaza wrote:
Polt just yesterday showed me how he can destroy a protoss (desrow) 2-0 without problems.
Surely you weren't being serious with that statement?
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I really don't think that a 54% winrate for PvT because Protoss has been doing slightly better in the last month or two is worth getting all up in arms about. Why don't we just sit back and give it some time to see if Terrans can "adapt" to changes in the metagame the way Protoss players did against Hellbat/Widow Mine drops at the beginning of Hots?
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On December 18 2013 11:45 sM.Zik wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 08:52 Mantaza wrote:
Polt just yesterday showed me how he can destroy a protoss (desrow) 2-0 without problems. Surely you weren't being serious with that statement?
Desrow so stronk
the night before he took a game off soulkey in the sao paulo IEM qualifier.
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EPT
