On December 18 2013 02:07 PanzerElite wrote: ^ 1-1-1 was already dead in wol
Yes, but no siege research and reduced cloak cost means that without MsC it would be really hard to defend and dominate the matchup, which nobody wants.
would it? Sure, the 200/200 and the associated timing advantages are quite notable, but to go from "not viable" (end of WoL) to "dominating" is quite a huge step you have to take.
And that's not talking about more reasonable possibilities than removing the MsC, e.g. nerfing something about it.
On December 18 2013 02:07 PanzerElite wrote: ^ 1-1-1 was already dead in wol
Yes, but no siege research and reduced cloak cost means that without MsC it would be really hard to defend and dominate the matchup, which nobody wants.
Let's be frank, the cloak cost decrease made no sense at all. I think the official reason was that banshee's aren't used very often, but after the cloak cost decrease, they are only used in the early game and die out as the game progresses, which is also a problem for blizzard as one could see with the reasoning of the recent oracle buff.
An effective buff for all game stages was needed, but instead blizzard chose to buff the early game strengths of the banshee.
You're wrong.
Banshees commonly see play in TvT and TvZ, a lot more than they did in WoL. The cost decrease was to promote increased use of the unit and it has done that.
On December 18 2013 01:57 Tyrhanius wrote: Don't want protoss to be weak, just Protoss need as much skill as the T/Z in the same league. Why is there so many GM toss ? Because you don't need a lot of train to reach a very good level. Be way better than your opponent to beat them beacause he play P is not balanced, even if you see around 50% win rate. Imagine if on a FPS, one need to hit the body and the other to the head to win, and if the players would have a 50%-50% chance for each other, did you conclude than the best player always wins?
On the opposite side, good P can't really show their skill. David Kim say he wants to balance the game to have entertainement games. But is it cool to show Rain vs Soulkey, Soulkey has taken a great avantage (because of great micro on a cheese) but Rain manage to win beacause of ? Insane micro, insane decision making ? Nope, defend with MSC , hid a dark shrine and spawn DT and a aclik. I can do that, everyone can. Don't really show the skill of Rain ever. In this exemple, DT should be hard to micro, and hard to be cost effective with it to show Rain skill, and avoid the casual to easily use them to win. Nope DT need brainless micro, and even if scouted, he can just morph archon and don't be behind if failed. Just an example but nearly all the units/tech of protoss are like this.
And for the oracle, it's alike. David Kim said he wanted to promote the player with good micro, but honestly, oracle is now as brainless as DT. It's very easy to kill a lot of drone and don't lose him. I remember some grubby sick micro with pre-patch oracle where he manage to keep it alive despite some towerd : then you can say he has good micro ! but now oracle control doesn't impress me anymore. By the way when you saw SOS vs Scarlett at blizzcon and SOS (supposed to be the best player of the year) losing a post-patch oracle on spore and queen and still winning the game just with mass void, while scarlett has done an insane creep spread/timing attack,i don't find the victory emphasizes the one who play the best.
That's because your definition of "play the best" is wrong.
It's not how fast you can click or how many bases you can drop at once. It's also about making the right choices of tech and attacking at the right time with the right composition. These things are a lot more important for Protoss and people simply don't understand that.
TvZ for example. You parade MMMM across the map all game long. Whereas PvZ, P has to be really careful about his composition and constantly scout to make sure there is no tech switch. So while T is microing marines, but requires no brain to think with, P has to constantly anticipate Z's next tech switch.
In that game, Rain's decision to go DT was smart because he saw that Soulkey had no detection. It was the right thing to do in that scenario. The decision itself is good play, not how he micros the DT.
When you think about it like that all races have pros and cons and there is balance in the end.
I dare you to stay only marinesMineMedic if the zerg decides to go mass ultralisk or BL. You won't last long. The terran also has to scout if there is no tech switch, in TvZ and TvP and TvT. No viking vs colossus ? Lose. No ghost vs zealot archon HT ? Lose. And it's the same for the zerg. If I decide to play mech and make a very strong sky transition, and he doesn't scout it, he's dead. Alll 3 races need to scout. And imho Protoss is the race that need it the least in TvP because it always comes to the same compo, zealot HT colossus archons.
On December 18 2013 02:07 PanzerElite wrote: ^ 1-1-1 was already dead in wol
Yes, but no siege research and reduced cloak cost means that without MsC it would be really hard to defend and dominate the matchup, which nobody wants.
Let's be frank, the cloak cost decrease made no sense at all. I think the official reason was that banshee's aren't used very often, but after the cloak cost decrease, they are only used in the early game and die out as the game progresses, which is also a problem for blizzard as one could see with the reasoning of the recent oracle buff.
An effective buff for all game stages was needed, but instead blizzard chose to buff the early game strengths of the banshee.
You're wrong.
Banshees commonly see play in TvT and TvZ, a lot more than they did in WoL. The cost decrease was to promote increased use of the unit and it has done that.
Only in the early game, which is also a problem to blizzard since they want a unit to be used (more or less) throughout the whole game.
On December 18 2013 02:07 PanzerElite wrote: ^ 1-1-1 was already dead in wol
Yes, but no siege research and reduced cloak cost means that without MsC it would be really hard to defend and dominate the matchup, which nobody wants.
Let's be frank, the cloak cost decrease made no sense at all. I think the official reason was that banshee's aren't used very often, but after the cloak cost decrease, they are only used in the early game and die out as the game progresses, which is also a problem for blizzard as one could see with the reasoning of the recent oracle buff.
An effective buff for all game stages was needed, but instead blizzard chose to buff the early game strengths of the banshee.
You're wrong.
Banshees commonly see play in TvT and TvZ, a lot more than they did in WoL. The cost decrease was to promote increased use of the unit and it has done that.
Only in the early game, which is also a problem to blizzard since they want a unit to be used (more or less) throughout the whole game.
If you play mech, banshees are quite useful in TvZ in every stage of the game. And the few people that play mech vs P use banshees as a great tool to kill immortals and chase HT.
On December 18 2013 02:07 PanzerElite wrote: ^ 1-1-1 was already dead in wol
Yes, but no siege research and reduced cloak cost means that without MsC it would be really hard to defend and dominate the matchup, which nobody wants.
Let's be frank, the cloak cost decrease made no sense at all. I think the official reason was that banshee's aren't used very often, but after the cloak cost decrease, they are only used in the early game and die out as the game progresses, which is also a problem for blizzard as one could see with the reasoning of the recent oracle buff.
An effective buff for all game stages was needed, but instead blizzard chose to buff the early game strengths of the banshee.
You're wrong.
Banshees commonly see play in TvT and TvZ, a lot more than they did in WoL. The cost decrease was to promote increased use of the unit and it has done that.
Only in the early game, which is also a problem to blizzard since they want a unit to be used (more or less) throughout the whole game.
Blizzard should have no word to say about which unit people have to use or not. Their interventionism policy to actively promote or forbid certain things/units is really ridiculous. Players are the ones who should decide what they want to do or not to do with the tools they have, not Blizzard. Not everything can be mainstream anyway. Banshees have their uses, and if their role is more limited than some other units, then so be it. It's not a problem.
On December 18 2013 01:57 Tyrhanius wrote: Don't want protoss to be weak, just Protoss need as much skill as the T/Z in the same league. Why is there so many GM toss ? Because you don't need a lot of train to reach a very good level. Be way better than your opponent to beat them beacause he play P is not balanced, even if you see around 50% win rate. Imagine if on a FPS, one need to hit the body and the other to the head to win, and if the players would have a 50%-50% chance for each other, did you conclude than the best player always wins?
On the opposite side, good P can't really show their skill. David Kim say he wants to balance the game to have entertainement games. But is it cool to show Rain vs Soulkey, Soulkey has taken a great avantage (because of great micro on a cheese) but Rain manage to win beacause of ? Insane micro, insane decision making ? Nope, defend with MSC , hid a dark shrine and spawn DT and a aclik. I can do that, everyone can. Don't really show the skill of Rain ever. In this exemple, DT should be hard to micro, and hard to be cost effective with it to show Rain skill, and avoid the casual to easily use them to win. Nope DT need brainless micro, and even if scouted, he can just morph archon and don't be behind if failed. Just an example but nearly all the units/tech of protoss are like this.
And for the oracle, it's alike. David Kim said he wanted to promote the player with good micro, but honestly, oracle is now as brainless as DT. It's very easy to kill a lot of drone and don't lose him. I remember some grubby sick micro with pre-patch oracle where he manage to keep it alive despite some towerd : then you can say he has good micro ! but now oracle control doesn't impress me anymore. By the way when you saw SOS vs Scarlett at blizzcon and SOS (supposed to be the best player of the year) losing a post-patch oracle on spore and queen and still winning the game just with mass void, while scarlett has done an insane creep spread/timing attack,i don't find the victory emphasizes the one who play the best.
That's because your definition of "play the best" is wrong.
It's not how fast you can click or how many bases you can drop at once. It's also about making the right choices of tech and attacking at the right time with the right composition. These things are a lot more important for Protoss and people simply don't understand that.
TvZ for example. You parade MMMM across the map all game long. Whereas PvZ, P has to be really careful about his composition and constantly scout to make sure there is no tech switch. So while T is microing marines, but requires no brain to think with, P has to constantly anticipate Z's next tech switch.
In that game, Rain's decision to go DT was smart because he saw that Soulkey had no detection. It was the right thing to do in that scenario. The decision itself is good play, not how he micros the DT.
When you think about it like that all races have pros and cons and there is balance in the end.
I dare you to stay only marinesMineMedic if the zerg decides to go mass ultralisk or BL. You won't last long. The terran also has to scout if there is no tech switch, in TvZ and TvP and TvT. No viking vs colossus ? Lose. No ghost vs zealot archon HT ? Lose. And it's the same for the zerg. If I decide to play mech and make a very strong sky transition, and he doesn't scout it, he's dead. Alll 3 races need to scout. And imho Protoss is the race that need it the least in TvP because it always comes to the same compo, zealot HT colossus archons.
Very few PvZ games actually get that far. And if they do, you can make Vikings and Marauders from the same tech structures you already have.
The difference between TvP and PvZ is that in TvP, you can scout a robo bay, be fairly sure they're going Colossus, and make Vikings. Colossus build slowly 1 at a time, whereas Vikings build quickly 2 at a time.
In PvZ, if Zerg has an infestation pit and a spire, you could have a tech switch into 40 Muta or 20 Swarm Hosts. Both which require very different tech choices and infrastructure to handle. If he's going roaches, not only do you have to fight the roaches, but you need to be judging if more roaches are being made, if he's continuing to upgrade his weapons, if he's setting up static D in his bases to defend agaisnt warp prism (for swarm host), or if hes expanding in 3 places while he contains you with Muta.
I play both Protoss and Terran. The decision making aspect is MUCH MUCH MUCH more difficult as Protoss. The race is a lot less forgiving decision making wise than Terran.
On December 18 2013 01:57 Tyrhanius wrote: Don't want protoss to be weak, just Protoss need as much skill as the T/Z in the same league. Why is there so many GM toss ? Because you don't need a lot of train to reach a very good level. Be way better than your opponent to beat them beacause he play P is not balanced, even if you see around 50% win rate. Imagine if on a FPS, one need to hit the body and the other to the head to win, and if the players would have a 50%-50% chance for each other, did you conclude than the best player always wins?
On the opposite side, good P can't really show their skill. David Kim say he wants to balance the game to have entertainement games. But is it cool to show Rain vs Soulkey, Soulkey has taken a great avantage (because of great micro on a cheese) but Rain manage to win beacause of ? Insane micro, insane decision making ? Nope, defend with MSC , hid a dark shrine and spawn DT and a aclik. I can do that, everyone can. Don't really show the skill of Rain ever. In this exemple, DT should be hard to micro, and hard to be cost effective with it to show Rain skill, and avoid the casual to easily use them to win. Nope DT need brainless micro, and even if scouted, he can just morph archon and don't be behind if failed. Just an example but nearly all the units/tech of protoss are like this.
And for the oracle, it's alike. David Kim said he wanted to promote the player with good micro, but honestly, oracle is now as brainless as DT. It's very easy to kill a lot of drone and don't lose him. I remember some grubby sick micro with pre-patch oracle where he manage to keep it alive despite some towerd : then you can say he has good micro ! but now oracle control doesn't impress me anymore. By the way when you saw SOS vs Scarlett at blizzcon and SOS (supposed to be the best player of the year) losing a post-patch oracle on spore and queen and still winning the game just with mass void, while scarlett has done an insane creep spread/timing attack,i don't find the victory emphasizes the one who play the best.
That's because your definition of "play the best" is wrong.
It's not how fast you can click or how many bases you can drop at once. It's also about making the right choices of tech and attacking at the right time with the right composition. These things are a lot more important for Protoss and people simply don't understand that.
TvZ for example. You parade MMMM across the map all game long. Whereas PvZ, P has to be really careful about his composition and constantly scout to make sure there is no tech switch. So while T is microing marines, but requires no brain to think with, P has to constantly anticipate Z's next tech switch.
In that game, Rain's decision to go DT was smart because he saw that Soulkey had no detection. It was the right thing to do in that scenario. The decision itself is good play, not how he micros the DT.
When you think about it like that all races have pros and cons and there is balance in the end.
I dare you to stay only marinesMineMedic if the zerg decides to go mass ultralisk or BL. You won't last long. The terran also has to scout if there is no tech switch, in TvZ and TvP and TvT. No viking vs colossus ? Lose. No ghost vs zealot archon HT ? Lose. And it's the same for the zerg. If I decide to play mech and make a very strong sky transition, and he doesn't scout it, he's dead. Alll 3 races need to scout. And imho Protoss is the race that need it the least in TvP because it always comes to the same compo, zealot HT colossus archons.
Very few PvZ games actually get that far. And if they do, you can make Vikings and Marauders from the same tech structures you already have.
The difference between TvP and PvZ is that in TvP, you can scout a robo bay, be fairly sure they're going Colossus, and make Vikings. Colossus build slowly 1 at a time, whereas Vikings build quickly 2 at a time.
In PvZ, if Zerg has an infestation pit and a spire, you could have a tech switch into 40 Muta or 20 Swarm Hosts. Both which require very different tech choices and infrastructure to handle. If he's going roaches, not only do you have to fight the roaches, but you need to be judging if more roaches are being made, if he's continuing to upgrade his weapons, if he's setting up static D in his bases to defend agaisnt warp prism (for swarm host), or if hes expanding in 3 places while he contains you with Muta.
I play both Protoss and Terran. The decision making aspect is MUCH MUCH MUCH more difficult as Protoss. The race is a lot less forgiving decision making wise than Terran.
I think you don't play terran at a suffisant level then, because you can see a robo bay, but it might be a 2 colossus into HT tech, you don't scout enough, you find youself with 15 useless vikings no much less medivacs than you could have had. And I garantee you, you can't make viking and marauders from the same structure, the time you need to build more barack and add tech lab, same for starports, is quite long. You just overestimating how difficult protoss is just to counter balance the whinny people saying "P is EZ" but in no way Terrans or Zergs don't need as much scouting and decision making as protoss, this is absolutly ridiculous.
On December 18 2013 01:57 Tyrhanius wrote: Don't want protoss to be weak, just Protoss need as much skill as the T/Z in the same league. Why is there so many GM toss ? Because you don't need a lot of train to reach a very good level. Be way better than your opponent to beat them beacause he play P is not balanced, even if you see around 50% win rate. Imagine if on a FPS, one need to hit the body and the other to the head to win, and if the players would have a 50%-50% chance for each other, did you conclude than the best player always wins?
On the opposite side, good P can't really show their skill. David Kim say he wants to balance the game to have entertainement games. But is it cool to show Rain vs Soulkey, Soulkey has taken a great avantage (because of great micro on a cheese) but Rain manage to win beacause of ? Insane micro, insane decision making ? Nope, defend with MSC , hid a dark shrine and spawn DT and a aclik. I can do that, everyone can. Don't really show the skill of Rain ever. In this exemple, DT should be hard to micro, and hard to be cost effective with it to show Rain skill, and avoid the casual to easily use them to win. Nope DT need brainless micro, and even if scouted, he can just morph archon and don't be behind if failed. Just an example but nearly all the units/tech of protoss are like this.
And for the oracle, it's alike. David Kim said he wanted to promote the player with good micro, but honestly, oracle is now as brainless as DT. It's very easy to kill a lot of drone and don't lose him. I remember some grubby sick micro with pre-patch oracle where he manage to keep it alive despite some towerd : then you can say he has good micro ! but now oracle control doesn't impress me anymore. By the way when you saw SOS vs Scarlett at blizzcon and SOS (supposed to be the best player of the year) losing a post-patch oracle on spore and queen and still winning the game just with mass void, while scarlett has done an insane creep spread/timing attack,i don't find the victory emphasizes the one who play the best.
That's because your definition of "play the best" is wrong.
It's not how fast you can click or how many bases you can drop at once. It's also about making the right choices of tech and attacking at the right time with the right composition. These things are a lot more important for Protoss and people simply don't understand that.
TvZ for example. You parade MMMM across the map all game long. Whereas PvZ, P has to be really careful about his composition and constantly scout to make sure there is no tech switch. So while T is microing marines, but requires no brain to think with, P has to constantly anticipate Z's next tech switch.
In that game, Rain's decision to go DT was smart because he saw that Soulkey had no detection. It was the right thing to do in that scenario. The decision itself is good play, not how he micros the DT.
When you think about it like that all races have pros and cons and there is balance in the end.
I dare you to stay only marinesMineMedic if the zerg decides to go mass ultralisk or BL. You won't last long. The terran also has to scout if there is no tech switch, in TvZ and TvP and TvT. No viking vs colossus ? Lose. No ghost vs zealot archon HT ? Lose. And it's the same for the zerg. If I decide to play mech and make a very strong sky transition, and he doesn't scout it, he's dead. Alll 3 races need to scout. And imho Protoss is the race that need it the least in TvP because it always comes to the same compo, zealot HT colossus archons.
it's attitudes like this that give me a crap ton of "free wins" when I go sky terran..
On December 18 2013 01:57 Tyrhanius wrote: Don't want protoss to be weak, just Protoss need as much skill as the T/Z in the same league. Why is there so many GM toss ? Because you don't need a lot of train to reach a very good level. Be way better than your opponent to beat them beacause he play P is not balanced, even if you see around 50% win rate. Imagine if on a FPS, one need to hit the body and the other to the head to win, and if the players would have a 50%-50% chance for each other, did you conclude than the best player always wins?
On the opposite side, good P can't really show their skill. David Kim say he wants to balance the game to have entertainement games. But is it cool to show Rain vs Soulkey, Soulkey has taken a great avantage (because of great micro on a cheese) but Rain manage to win beacause of ? Insane micro, insane decision making ? Nope, defend with MSC , hid a dark shrine and spawn DT and a aclik. I can do that, everyone can. Don't really show the skill of Rain ever. In this exemple, DT should be hard to micro, and hard to be cost effective with it to show Rain skill, and avoid the casual to easily use them to win. Nope DT need brainless micro, and even if scouted, he can just morph archon and don't be behind if failed. Just an example but nearly all the units/tech of protoss are like this.
And for the oracle, it's alike. David Kim said he wanted to promote the player with good micro, but honestly, oracle is now as brainless as DT. It's very easy to kill a lot of drone and don't lose him. I remember some grubby sick micro with pre-patch oracle where he manage to keep it alive despite some towerd : then you can say he has good micro ! but now oracle control doesn't impress me anymore. By the way when you saw SOS vs Scarlett at blizzcon and SOS (supposed to be the best player of the year) losing a post-patch oracle on spore and queen and still winning the game just with mass void, while scarlett has done an insane creep spread/timing attack,i don't find the victory emphasizes the one who play the best.
That's because your definition of "play the best" is wrong.
It's not how fast you can click or how many bases you can drop at once. It's also about making the right choices of tech and attacking at the right time with the right composition. These things are a lot more important for Protoss and people simply don't understand that.
TvZ for example. You parade MMMM across the map all game long. Whereas PvZ, P has to be really careful about his composition and constantly scout to make sure there is no tech switch. So while T is microing marines, but requires no brain to think with, P has to constantly anticipate Z's next tech switch.
In that game, Rain's decision to go DT was smart because he saw that Soulkey had no detection. It was the right thing to do in that scenario. The decision itself is good play, not how he micros the DT.
When you think about it like that all races have pros and cons and there is balance in the end.
I dare you to stay only marinesMineMedic if the zerg decides to go mass ultralisk or BL. You won't last long. The terran also has to scout if there is no tech switch, in TvZ and TvP and TvT. No viking vs colossus ? Lose. No ghost vs zealot archon HT ? Lose. And it's the same for the zerg. If I decide to play mech and make a very strong sky transition, and he doesn't scout it, he's dead. Alll 3 races need to scout. And imho Protoss is the race that need it the least in TvP because it always comes to the same compo, zealot HT colossus archons.
it's attitudes like this that give me a crap ton of "free wins" when I go sky terran..
That or mech. Mech requires a massively different composition too.
On December 18 2013 01:57 Tyrhanius wrote: Don't want protoss to be weak, just Protoss need as much skill as the T/Z in the same league. Why is there so many GM toss ? Because you don't need a lot of train to reach a very good level. Be way better than your opponent to beat them beacause he play P is not balanced, even if you see around 50% win rate. Imagine if on a FPS, one need to hit the body and the other to the head to win, and if the players would have a 50%-50% chance for each other, did you conclude than the best player always wins?
On the opposite side, good P can't really show their skill. David Kim say he wants to balance the game to have entertainement games. But is it cool to show Rain vs Soulkey, Soulkey has taken a great avantage (because of great micro on a cheese) but Rain manage to win beacause of ? Insane micro, insane decision making ? Nope, defend with MSC , hid a dark shrine and spawn DT and a aclik. I can do that, everyone can. Don't really show the skill of Rain ever. In this exemple, DT should be hard to micro, and hard to be cost effective with it to show Rain skill, and avoid the casual to easily use them to win. Nope DT need brainless micro, and even if scouted, he can just morph archon and don't be behind if failed. Just an example but nearly all the units/tech of protoss are like this.
And for the oracle, it's alike. David Kim said he wanted to promote the player with good micro, but honestly, oracle is now as brainless as DT. It's very easy to kill a lot of drone and don't lose him. I remember some grubby sick micro with pre-patch oracle where he manage to keep it alive despite some towerd : then you can say he has good micro ! but now oracle control doesn't impress me anymore. By the way when you saw SOS vs Scarlett at blizzcon and SOS (supposed to be the best player of the year) losing a post-patch oracle on spore and queen and still winning the game just with mass void, while scarlett has done an insane creep spread/timing attack,i don't find the victory emphasizes the one who play the best.
That's because your definition of "play the best" is wrong.
It's not how fast you can click or how many bases you can drop at once. It's also about making the right choices of tech and attacking at the right time with the right composition. These things are a lot more important for Protoss and people simply don't understand that.
TvZ for example. You parade MMMM across the map all game long. Whereas PvZ, P has to be really careful about his composition and constantly scout to make sure there is no tech switch. So while T is microing marines, but requires no brain to think with, P has to constantly anticipate Z's next tech switch.
In that game, Rain's decision to go DT was smart because he saw that Soulkey had no detection. It was the right thing to do in that scenario. The decision itself is good play, not how he micros the DT.
When you think about it like that all races have pros and cons and there is balance in the end.
I dare you to stay only marinesMineMedic if the zerg decides to go mass ultralisk or BL. You won't last long. The terran also has to scout if there is no tech switch, in TvZ and TvP and TvT. No viking vs colossus ? Lose. No ghost vs zealot archon HT ? Lose. And it's the same for the zerg. If I decide to play mech and make a very strong sky transition, and he doesn't scout it, he's dead. Alll 3 races need to scout. And imho Protoss is the race that need it the least in TvP because it always comes to the same compo, zealot HT colossus archons.
Very few PvZ games actually get that far. And if they do, you can make Vikings and Marauders from the same tech structures you already have.
The difference between TvP and PvZ is that in TvP, you can scout a robo bay, be fairly sure they're going Colossus, and make Vikings. Colossus build slowly 1 at a time, whereas Vikings build quickly 2 at a time.
In PvZ, if Zerg has an infestation pit and a spire, you could have a tech switch into 40 Muta or 20 Swarm Hosts. Both which require very different tech choices and infrastructure to handle. If he's going roaches, not only do you have to fight the roaches, but you need to be judging if more roaches are being made, if he's continuing to upgrade his weapons, if he's setting up static D in his bases to defend agaisnt warp prism (for swarm host), or if hes expanding in 3 places while he contains you with Muta.
I play both Protoss and Terran. The decision making aspect is MUCH MUCH MUCH more difficult as Protoss. The race is a lot less forgiving decision making wise than Terran.
I think you don't play terran at a suffisant level then, because you can see a robo bay, but it might be a 2 colossus into HT tech, you don't scout enough, you find youself with 15 useless vikings no much less medivacs than you could have had. And I garantee you, you can't make viking and marauders from the same structure, the time you need to build more barack and add tech lab, same for starports, is quite long. You just overestimating how difficult protoss is just to counter balance the whinny people saying "P is EZ" but in no way Terrans or Zergs don't need as much scouting and decision making as protoss, this is absolutly ridiculous.
The situation you are talking about is a weakness in play. It can be handled with scouting because of how slow Colossus are made (IE: learn the standard timings for when a third colossus would be made, scan or scout if the robo is still building at that time and you will know for sure. If your opponent is still making colossus he will be still be building and likely chronoing the robo at this point). The one he is talking about cannot be scouted until it is too late in many cases because of how long it takes Protoss to tech and Zerg's ability to have massive booms in production after saving money up. The situation he is talking about was actually quite problematic for a while in early HOTS, and is starting to pop up again on stream (I saw San lose to situations like it a few times the other day). The situations are not analogous at all.
On December 18 2013 01:57 Tyrhanius wrote: Don't want protoss to be weak, just Protoss show d as much skill as the T/Z in the same league. Why is there so many GM toss ? Because you don't need a lot of train to reach a very good level. Be way better than your opponent to beat them beacause he play P is not balanced, even if you see around 50% win rate. Imagine if on a FPS, one need to hit the body and the other to the head to win, and if the players would have a 50%-50% chance for each other, did you conclude than the best player always wins?
On the opposite side, good P can't really show their skill. David Kim say he wants to balance the game to have entertainement games. But is it cool to show Rain vs Soulkey, Soulkey has taken a great avantage (because of great micro on a cheese) but Rain manage to win beacause of ? Insane micro, insane decision making ? Nope, defend with MSC , hid a dark shrine and spawn DT and a aclik. I can do that, everyone can. Don't really show the skill of Rain ever. In this exemple, DT should be hard to micro, and hard to be cost effective with it to show Rain skill, and avoid the casual to easily use them to win. Nope DT need brainless micro, and even if scouted, he can just morph archon and don't be behind if failed. Just an example but nearly all the units/tech of protoss are like this.
And for the oracle, it's alike. David Kim said he wanted to promote the player with good micro, but honestly, oracle is now as brainless as DT. It's very easy to kill a lot of drone and don't lose him. I remember some grubby sick micro with pre-patch oracle where he manage to keep it alive despite some towerd : then you can say he has good micro ! but now oracle control doesn't impress me anymore. By the way when you saw SOS vs Scarlett at blizzcon and SOS (supposed to be the best player of the year) losing a post-patch oracle on spore and queen and still winning the game just with mass void, while scarlett has done an insane creep spread/timing attack,i don't find the victory emphasizes the one who play the best.
That's because your definition of "play the best" is wrong.
It's not how fast you can click or how many bases you can drop at once. It's also about making the right choices of tech and attacking at the right time with the right composition. These things are a lot more important for Protoss and people simply don't understand that.
TvZ for example. You parade MMMM across the map all game long. Whereas PvZ, P has to be really careful about his composition and constantly scout to make sure there is no tech switch. So while T is microing marines, but requires no brain to think with, P has to constantly anticipate Z's next tech switch.
In that game, Rain's decision to go DT was smart because he saw that Soulkey had no detection. It was the right thing to do in that scenario. The decision itself is good play, not how he micros the DT.
When you think about it like that all races have pros and cons and there is balance in the end.
Honestly, is it a GM décision or anyone even bronze can understand that an invisible unités is counter by détection lol ? I'm not even sure he has scouted and wasn't just hoping for.
Moreover décision making is important in Every race. Y ou can't win vs a 30 APM toss with zerg 200+APM without game knowledge and décision. But in zerg and terran you're limited by your mechanisms too and the difficulty of executing your decision way more than in protoss.
Protoss emphazize decision but never mecanism. In zerg/terran it's not enough to Know what to do to reach GM/master we need to know how to exécuté it. I know how to counter deathball toss with SH/spore/viper/corruptor infestor/broodlord but exécution avoid me to win while Toss has just mass colo/void/archon/ and crush me with less micro/less army value/less upgrade and final end game chart show him with less APM. Toss unit are very friendly user so décision is nearly all toss need to focus on.
On December 18 2013 01:57 Tyrhanius wrote: Don't want protoss to be weak, just Protoss show d as much skill as the T/Z in the same league. Why is there so many GM toss ? Because you don't need a lot of train to reach a very good level. Be way better than your opponent to beat them beacause he play P is not balanced, even if you see around 50% win rate. Imagine if on a FPS, one need to hit the body and the other to the head to win, and if the players would have a 50%-50% chance for each other, did you conclude than the best player always wins?
On the opposite side, good P can't really show their skill. David Kim say he wants to balance the game to have entertainement games. But is it cool to show Rain vs Soulkey, Soulkey has taken a great avantage (because of great micro on a cheese) but Rain manage to win beacause of ? Insane micro, insane decision making ? Nope, defend with MSC , hid a dark shrine and spawn DT and a aclik. I can do that, everyone can. Don't really show the skill of Rain ever. In this exemple, DT should be hard to micro, and hard to be cost effective with it to show Rain skill, and avoid the casual to easily use them to win. Nope DT need brainless micro, and even if scouted, he can just morph archon and don't be behind if failed. Just an example but nearly all the units/tech of protoss are like this.
And for the oracle, it's alike. David Kim said he wanted to promote the player with good micro, but honestly, oracle is now as brainless as DT. It's very easy to kill a lot of drone and don't lose him. I remember some grubby sick micro with pre-patch oracle where he manage to keep it alive despite some towerd : then you can say he has good micro ! but now oracle control doesn't impress me anymore. By the way when you saw SOS vs Scarlett at blizzcon and SOS (supposed to be the best player of the year) losing a post-patch oracle on spore and queen and still winning the game just with mass void, while scarlett has done an insane creep spread/timing attack,i don't find the victory emphasizes the one who play the best.
That's because your definition of "play the best" is wrong.
It's not how fast you can click or how many bases you can drop at once. It's also about making the right choices of tech and attacking at the right time with the right composition. These things are a lot more important for Protoss and people simply don't understand that.
TvZ for example. You parade MMMM across the map all game long. Whereas PvZ, P has to be really careful about his composition and constantly scout to make sure there is no tech switch. So while T is microing marines, but requires no brain to think with, P has to constantly anticipate Z's next tech switch.
In that game, Rain's decision to go DT was smart because he saw that Soulkey had no detection. It was the right thing to do in that scenario. The decision itself is good play, not how he micros the DT.
When you think about it like that all races have pros and cons and there is balance in the end.
Honestly, is it a GM décision or anyone even bronze can understand that an invisible unités is counter by détection lol ? I'm not even sure he has scouted and wasn't just hoping for.
Moreover décision making is important in Every race. Y ou can't win vs a 30 APM toss with zerg 200+APM without game knowledge and décision. But in zerg and terran you're limited by your mechanisms too and the difficulty of executing your decision way more than in protoss.
Protoss emphazize decision but never mecanism. In zerg/terran it's not enough to Know what to do to reach GM/master we need to know how to exécuté it. I know how to counter deathball toss with SH/spore/viper/corruptor infestor/broodlord but exécution avoid me to win while Toss has just mass colo/void/archon/ and crush me with less micro/less army value/less upgrade and final end game chart show him with less APM. Toss unit are very friendly user so décision is nearly all toss need to focus on.
On December 17 2013 15:44 Survivor61316 wrote: Well I think I'm finally switching races..Terran is just too hard to play anymore. TvP is clearly broken, and I feel like TvZ is slowing slipping to favoring the zerg. So I guess its time to learn zerg..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss.
But not too much self respect to bitch about it on the forums. What a surprise!
Lmao..I love little kids like you on the internet. Being able to just shit on people without having to worry about real life consequences has warped your little brain so much. I fail to see how me typing out one sentence saying I'm switching races, even with a dig at toss, constitutes "bitching." Go back to school and expand your vocabulary...
On December 17 2013 15:44 Survivor61316 wrote: Well I think I'm finally switching races..Terran is just too hard to play anymore. TvP is clearly broken, and I feel like TvZ is slowing slipping to favoring the zerg. So I guess its time to learn zerg..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss.
But not too much self respect to bitch about it on the forums. What a surprise!
Lmao..I love little kids like you on the internet. Being able to just shit on people without having to worry about real life consequences has warped your little brain so much. I fail to see how me typing out one sentence saying I'm switching races, even with a dig at toss, constitutes "bitching." Go back to school and expand your vocabulary...
"..I just have too much self-respect to play as a race as broken as toss"
Rofl.
People like you who equate playing terran to fucking buying your coffee from the local store are the worst kind of "little kid" on TL.
If you want to switch races, you're free to do so. But if you're going to insult Protoss players doing it by implying that we have no self respect, people are going to get mad at you and you just have to deal with it.
EPT
