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On December 17 2013 23:54 DinoMight wrote:
I've seen a few good pro Terrans use Nuke in big macro games to hit 4th bases that the P has cannoned up. With the whole army dance going on it's quite difficult to find the red dot and deal with the nuke because you risk fucking up and taking a bad engagement with your main army.
I've also seen ghosts used to EMP enemy Medivacs in TvT and to nuke PFs as well as to force an unsiege on a tank line.
Ghosts/Nuke are a lot more useful than people think they are. it's not just the "anti HT"
I have seen Terrans dumping thousands of minerals and gas into nukes and multiple ghost academies to kill a buch of cannons and later in the game missing those minerals to reinforce their army. Nukes are a double edged sword and if the opponent reacts correctly you simply waste a ton of money.
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Currently my biggest problem with Protoss is the complete lack of action in the game.
Usual vs Protoss games:
All IN:
Opposition scouts no expansion from Protoss - has to instantly scout the sort of all in, opposition is either defended or not; a battle happens, somebody dies/is irrecoverably behind/Just takes a 2nd with Mothershitcore defense.
"MACRO" aka. delayed all in off 3/4/5 bases (lol)
Some form of macro all game long, the opposition tries to hurt Protoss and slow him down in any way possible, Protoss thinks he reaches a critical army, he moves out, somebody dies within 1 minutes, game over.
This happens by far MOST of the games vs Protoss. And nowadays you face a lot of Protoss too. It just makes me not want to ladder because most games I face are just boring as hell. Protoss doesn't even scout anymore because there's no real all in that can hurt him, except for the most dedicated cheeses...
I think MSC is too safe and Protoss needs to be forced to commit more on the maps which need less safe 2nd & 3rd.
Protoss suddendly has to invest in a good number of sentries to defend, slows down his tech, makes the game more enjoyable overall because Protoss has to slow his opponent down too (a bit like Phoenix do nowadays) and make some action happen. If it is needed, we could buff some protoss stuff to not make them too weak with hard thirds, but not give them a Get-out-of-jail free card in the mothershitcore...
TLDR: Harder 2nd/3rd bases, slightly weaker MSC (buffed agressive options) --> More sentries, slower tech, more agression
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EMP is honestly the worst designed ability in the game. It's way too good against bad/mediocre players but not good enough against good ones. If you're a mediocre Terran against a mediocre Protoss, you can still counter his entire tech path with one spell from one unit - because he doesn't have the APM to keep them split.
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On December 18 2013 01:04 Xequecal wrote:
If you're a mediocre Terran against a mediocre Protoss, you can still counter his entire tech path with one spell from one unit - because he doesn't have the APM to keep them split.
Same applies to storm. Splitting before a fight is easy, splitting in the middle of a fight is difficult. And toss usually storms right in a fight. Protoss has a clear advantage in both mechanics and build orders until you reach GM.
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On December 18 2013 01:04 Xequecal wrote:
EMP is honestly the worst designed ability in the game. It's way too good against bad/mediocre players but not good enough against good ones. If you're a mediocre Terran against a mediocre Protoss, you can still counter his entire tech path with one spell from one unit - because he doesn't have the APM to keep them split.
What about corruption on corruptors? There´s a spell where no amount of imagination was used :D
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On December 17 2013 23:54 DinoMight wrote:
I've seen a few good pro Terrans use Nuke in big macro games to hit 4th bases that the P has cannoned up. With the whole army dance going on it's quite difficult to find the red dot and deal with the nuke because you risk fucking up and taking a bad engagement with your main army.
I've also seen ghosts used to EMP enemy Medivacs in TvT and to nuke PFs as well as to force an unsiege on a tank line.
Ghosts/Nuke are a lot more useful than people think they are. it's not just the "anti HT"
Seriously, how many times do we see nukes used in pro competitive Terran games? 1 in 30, 50?
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On December 18 2013 01:03 SC2Toastie wrote:
I think MSC is too safe and Protoss needs to be forced to commit more on the maps which need less safe 2nd & 3rd.
Protoss suddendly has to invest in a good number of sentries to defend, slows down his tech, makes the game more enjoyable overall because Protoss has to slow his opponent down too (a bit like Phoenix do nowadays) and make some action happen. If it is needed, we could buff some protoss stuff to not make them too weak with hard thirds, but not give them a Get-out-of-jail free card in the mothershitcore...
If it were that simple Blizzard would have done it already. Due to how sentries work, if overcharge is nerfed and Protoss must "invest in sentries to defend" then they have no options at all. Because sentries have to build up energy to be useful, that means they MUST be built early. Protoss is absolutely locked into the old WoL gate core nexus gate gate gate opening. Literally everything else is either pure cheese or instant suicide. Stargate opening? Not enough gas for sentries, so you instantly lose to any build other than 1 rax FE or CC first, even a simple 2 rax plus SCV pull will kill you. Twilight opening? Outright die to buffed cloak banshees. 1/1/1 completely dominates the matchup again, you have 200 more gas relative to WoL (no siege research, reduced cloak cost) and Protoss is forced to use the exact same opening as WoL with the exact same units when they got dominated by it.
I've said it several times, if Protoss is forced to put down 4 gates before a tech building they will never beat 1/1/1. The fact that overcharge allows you to go gate core nexus robo is the reason 1/1/1 is bad, not because overcharge is good against the actual allin.
Honestly the best balance for photon overcharge is to simply disable it entirely at the 8:00-8:30 minute mark, so you can use it against early cheese, but not against stim+medivac timings. However, I don't see any way to seamlessly implement that.
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I notice something recently. Protoss never scout, at every level.
MMA vs Crank or MMA vs Alicia for exemple in the ATC Finale : MMA won twice because of the lack of scouting from the protoss.
When I ladder, now I do some kind of 4 rax proxy, it's so fucking easy to counter when scouted : You need 1 sentry. But since they never scout for nothing thinking they are safe behind their MSC, meh, It works quite well. But still, the 4 rax proxy is fucking gimmicky.
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On December 18 2013 01:14 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 01:03 SC2Toastie wrote:
I think MSC is too safe and Protoss needs to be forced to commit more on the maps which need less safe 2nd & 3rd.
Protoss suddendly has to invest in a good number of sentries to defend, slows down his tech, makes the game more enjoyable overall because Protoss has to slow his opponent down too (a bit like Phoenix do nowadays) and make some action happen. If it is needed, we could buff some protoss stuff to not make them too weak with hard thirds, but not give them a Get-out-of-jail free card in the mothershitcore... If it were that simple Blizzard would have done it already. Due to how sentries work, if overcharge is nerfed and Protoss must "invest in sentries to defend" then they have no options at all. Because sentries have to build up energy to be useful, that means they MUST be built early. Protoss is absolutely locked into the old WoL gate core nexus gate gate gate opening. Literally everything else is either pure cheese or instant suicide. Stargate opening? Not enough gas for sentries, so you instantly lose to any build other than 1 rax FE or CC first, even a simple 2 rax plus SCV pull will kill you. Twilight opening? Outright die to buffed cloak banshees. 1/1/1 completely dominates the matchup again, you have 200 more gas relative to WoL (no siege research, reduced cloak cost) and Protoss is forced to use the exact same opening as WoL with the exact same units when they got dominated by it.
Overcharge doesn't need to be that long to hold off 2rax SCV pull or banshees. No one is saying that we should take away the overcharge, but I think range/damage/firing rate/duration can be tweaked.
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Northern Ireland25318 Posts
On December 18 2013 01:15 Faust852 wrote:
I notice something recently. Protoss never scout, at every level.
MMA vs Crank or MMA vs Alicia for exemple in the ATC Finale : MMA won twice because of the lack of scouting from the protoss.
When I ladder, now I do some kind of 4 rax proxy, it's so fucking easy to counter when scouted : You need 1 sentry. But since they never scout for nothing thinking they are safe behind their MSC, meh, It works quite well. But still, the 4 rax proxy is fucking gimmicky.
This is just patently false. Dear and Rain especially have hallucinated Phoenixes flying around at all stages of the game, most crucial against Zerg given their tech-switching ability
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On December 18 2013 01:21 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 01:15 Faust852 wrote:
I notice something recently. Protoss never scout, at every level.
MMA vs Crank or MMA vs Alicia for exemple in the ATC Finale : MMA won twice because of the lack of scouting from the protoss.
When I ladder, now I do some kind of 4 rax proxy, it's so fucking easy to counter when scouted : You need 1 sentry. But since they never scout for nothing thinking they are safe behind their MSC, meh, It works quite well. But still, the 4 rax proxy is fucking gimmicky.
This is just patently false. Dear and Rain especially have hallucinated Phoenixes flying around at all stages of the game, most crucial against Zerg given their tech-switching ability
I am pretty sure he means worker/early scouts in PvT. There is no point to scout because keeping the worker mining minerals is better versus almost all possible Terran openings.
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On December 18 2013 01:21 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 01:15 Faust852 wrote:
I notice something recently. Protoss never scout, at every level.
MMA vs Crank or MMA vs Alicia for exemple in the ATC Finale : MMA won twice because of the lack of scouting from the protoss.
When I ladder, now I do some kind of 4 rax proxy, it's so fucking easy to counter when scouted : You need 1 sentry. But since they never scout for nothing thinking they are safe behind their MSC, meh, It works quite well. But still, the 4 rax proxy is fucking gimmicky.
This is just patently false. Dear and Rain especially have hallucinated Phoenixes flying around at all stages of the game, most crucial against Zerg given their tech-switching ability
I obviously talk about the early game. When I said every level, I wasn't talking about every stage of the game, but in every league (GM/Master/Pro).
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On December 18 2013 01:25 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 01:21 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 18 2013 01:15 Faust852 wrote:
I notice something recently. Protoss never scout, at every level.
MMA vs Crank or MMA vs Alicia for exemple in the ATC Finale : MMA won twice because of the lack of scouting from the protoss.
When I ladder, now I do some kind of 4 rax proxy, it's so fucking easy to counter when scouted : You need 1 sentry. But since they never scout for nothing thinking they are safe behind their MSC, meh, It works quite well. But still, the 4 rax proxy is fucking gimmicky.
This is just patently false. Dear and Rain especially have hallucinated Phoenixes flying around at all stages of the game, most crucial against Zerg given their tech-switching ability I am pretty sure he means worker/early scouts in PvT. There is no point to scout because keeping the worker mining minerals is better versus almost all possible Terran openings.
A worker scout is useful, but it can be really late. I typically scout with the probe that makes by Cybenetics Core. Scouting earlier than that is stupid, there's nothing to see! Gasless expand poses no threats to you, so theres nothing to scout. If you get there and there's a wall you see if he's making a reaper or marines. Reaper you know what to expect. If it's a marine then you know there's no reaper and you can hide tech but his gas is going into something so be weary. If it's no wall with the rax near the middle of his base then probably going to switch reactor onto the factory so it's either mech or some sort of hellion/widow mine drop.
A lot of reads can be made from very little information.
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On December 18 2013 01:14 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2013 01:03 SC2Toastie wrote:
I think MSC is too safe and Protoss needs to be forced to commit more on the maps which need less safe 2nd & 3rd.
Protoss suddendly has to invest in a good number of sentries to defend, slows down his tech, makes the game more enjoyable overall because Protoss has to slow his opponent down too (a bit like Phoenix do nowadays) and make some action happen. If it is needed, we could buff some protoss stuff to not make them too weak with hard thirds, but not give them a Get-out-of-jail free card in the mothershitcore... If it were that simple Blizzard would have done it already. Due to how sentries work, if overcharge is nerfed and Protoss must "invest in sentries to defend" then they have no options at all. Because sentries have to build up energy to be useful, that means they MUST be built early. Protoss is absolutely locked into the old WoL gate core nexus gate gate gate opening. Literally everything else is either pure cheese or instant suicide. Stargate opening? Not enough gas for sentries, so you instantly lose to any build other than 1 rax FE or CC first, even a simple 2 rax plus SCV pull will kill you. Twilight opening? Outright die to buffed cloak banshees. 1/1/1 completely dominates the matchup again, you have 200 more gas relative to WoL (no siege research, reduced cloak cost) and Protoss is forced to use the exact same opening as WoL with the exact same units when they got dominated by it.
I've said it several times, if Protoss is forced to put down 4 gates before a tech building they will never beat 1/1/1. The fact that overcharge allows you to go gate core nexus robo is the reason 1/1/1 is bad, not because overcharge is good against the actual allin.Honestly the best balance for photon overcharge is to simply disable it entirely at the 8:00-8:30 minute mark, so you can use it against early cheese, but not against stim+medivac timings. However, I don't see any way to seamlessly implement that.
Finally someone who makes sense.
Take away mothership core and you increase cheese options for Terrans, yes. But you also remove any tech choices that Protoss has and force them down the same exact WoL path.
Does anyone seriously want to go back to the days of only 1/1/1 vs. Protoss?
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Northern Ireland25318 Posts
Nobody want the neglected Dark Archon to return then? 
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Don't want protoss to be weak, just Protoss need as much skill as the T/Z in the same league. Why is there so many GM toss ? Because you don't need a lot of train to reach a very good level.
Be way better than your opponent to beat them beacause he play P is not balanced, even if you see around 50% win rate. Imagine if on a FPS, one need to hit the body and the other to the head to win, and if the players would have a 50%-50% chance for each other, did you conclude than the best player always wins?
On the opposite side, good P can't really show their skill. David Kim say he wants to balance the game to have entertainement games. But is it cool to show Rain vs Soulkey, Soulkey has taken a great avantage (because of great micro on a cheese) but Rain manage to win beacause of ? Insane micro, insane decision making ? Nope, defend with MSC , hid a dark shrine and spawn DT and a aclik. I can do that, everyone can. Don't really show the skill of Rain ever. In this exemple, DT should be hard to micro, and hard to be cost effective with it to show Rain skill, and avoid the casual to easily use them to win. Nope DT need brainless micro, and even if scouted, he can just morph archon and don't be behind if failed.
Just an example but nearly all the units/tech of protoss are like this.
And for the oracle, it's alike. David Kim said he wanted to promote the player with good micro, but honestly, oracle is now as brainless as DT. It's very easy to kill a lot of drone and don't lose him. I remember some grubby sick micro with pre-patch oracle where he manage to keep it alive despite some towerd : then you can say he has good micro ! but now oracle control doesn't impress me anymore.
By the way when you saw SOS vs Scarlett at blizzcon and SOS (supposed to be the best player of the year) losing a post-patch oracle on spore and queen and still winning the game just with mass void, while scarlett has done an insane creep spread/timing attack,i don't find the victory emphasizes the one who play the best.
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^
1-1-1 was already dead in wol
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On December 18 2013 02:07 PanzerElite wrote:
^
1-1-1 was already dead in wol
Yes, but no siege research and reduced cloak cost means that without MsC it would be really hard to defend and dominate the matchup, which nobody wants.
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On December 18 2013 01:57 Tyrhanius wrote:
Don't want protoss to be weak, just Protoss need as much skill as the T/Z in the same league. Why is there so many GM toss ? Because you don't need a lot of train to reach a very good level.
Be way better than your opponent to beat them beacause he play P is not balanced, even if you see around 50% win rate. Imagine if on a FPS, one need to hit the body and the other to the head to win, and if the players would have a 50%-50% chance for each other, did you conclude than the best player always wins?
On the opposite side, good P can't really show their skill. David Kim say he wants to balance the game to have entertainement games. But is it cool to show Rain vs Soulkey, Soulkey has taken a great avantage (because of great micro on a cheese) but Rain manage to win beacause of ? Insane micro, insane decision making ? Nope, defend with MSC , hid a dark shrine and spawn DT and a aclik. I can do that, everyone can. Don't really show the skill of Rain ever. In this exemple, DT should be hard to micro, and hard to be cost effective with it to show Rain skill, and avoid the casual to easily use them to win. Nope DT need brainless micro, and even if scouted, he can just morph archon and don't be behind if failed.
Just an example but nearly all the units/tech of protoss are like this.
And for the oracle, it's alike. David Kim said he wanted to promote the player with good micro, but honestly, oracle is now as brainless as DT. It's very easy to kill a lot of drone and don't lose him. I remember some grubby sick micro with pre-patch oracle where he manage to keep it alive despite some towerd : then you can say he has good micro ! but now oracle control doesn't impress me anymore.
By the way when you saw SOS vs Scarlett at blizzcon and SOS (supposed to be the best player of the year) losing a post-patch oracle on spore and queen and still winning the game just with mass void, while scarlett has done an insane creep spread/timing attack,i don't find the victory emphasizes the one who play the best.
That's because your definition of "play the best" is wrong.
It's not how fast you can click or how many bases you can drop at once. It's also about making the right choices of tech and attacking at the right time with the right composition. These things are a lot more important for Protoss and people simply don't understand that.
TvZ for example. You parade MMMM across the map all game long. Whereas PvZ, P has to be really careful about his composition and constantly scout to make sure there is no tech switch. So while T is microing marines, but requires no brain to think with, P has to constantly anticipate Z's next tech switch.
In that game, Rain's decision to go DT was smart because he saw that Soulkey had no detection. It was the right thing to do in that scenario. The decision itself is good play, not how he micros the DT.
When you think about it like that all races have pros and cons and there is balance in the end.
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10776 Posts
On December 18 2013 02:19 DinoMight wrote:Yes, but no siege research and reduced cloak cost means that without MsC it would be really hard to defend and dominate the matchup, which nobody wants.
Let's be frank, the cloak cost decrease made no sense at all. I think the official reason was that banshee's aren't used very often, but after the cloak cost decrease, they are only used in the early game and die out as the game progresses, which is also a problem for blizzard as one could see with the reasoning of the recent oracle buff. An effective buff for all game stages was needed, but instead blizzard chose to buff the early game strengths of the banshee.
The same holds true for the siege tank, instead of buffing an aspect which primarily affects timing pushes, I'd rather see something that affects the mid-late game potential, like more increase in damage by upgrades (e.g. +5dmg per upgrade instead of +3 in siege mode, which would make them scale as much as marines percentage wise with upgrades).
But as it is now, I think you are right. Weaken the photon overcharge to a level where it cannot defend an early hitsquad of bio singlehandedly and protoss die to 1/1/1 left and right.
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EPT
